Dual 9s Shadowcaster/Wizard

[WeaselGuy]

So, I'm working on a backup character for a campaign I'm in, and my brain is kinda fried from entering 4 CharOp competitions in the past 3 weeks, so I'd like a little help, mostly with feat and spell selections. All 3.5 books are on the table, including Dragon Compendium, but no issues of Dragon Magazine.

The campaign I'm in is at level 12 (should go to 20), no alignment restrictions, post-apocalyptic where we're on Team Evil (so being Exalted Good would probably be a bad idea >.>). The party consists of our regulars: Wilder/Diabolist (probably re-rolling as an Assassin), Sorceress/War Mage (the DragonLance version), DFI Archer Bard, TWF Monk (I know...), and my current character, a DMM:P Cleric/Ordained Champion.

While I'm enjoying my cleric, I also have a pretty high mortality rate, and I'm kind of outshining the newer guys (the Bard and the Monk). I don't want to scare them off, and I think with our power level I can afford to swap out to a character I've been wanting to try:

LN Lesser Tiefling Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 4.

Int SAD, with dual 9's @20, and I can net 3 18's at start, with our assigned stats (12, 13, 14, 16, 16, 18, with the 16s in Dex and Int, and the 18 probably in Con).

So, here's where I need help. I know I want Darkstalker by level 12, since that's where we're at currently. I've considered Shadow Familiar + Improved Familiar to get a Dark Imp/Mephit/Quasit, but it's not a deal breaker. I've also considered using the Fighter Feat substitution for my Wizard 1 Scribe Scroll to pick up Weapon Finesse, until I remembered it required BAB +1. I could solve this by switching my Shadowcaster and Wizard levels around, and it would thematically make sense for Darkstalker...

Talking through all that, it seems like the following would be a good setup:
1 - Darkstalker
3 - Shadow Familiar
4 - Weapon Finesse
6 - Knowledge Devotion
9 - Improved Familiar


So, are there good ACFs for trading out my Wizard Familiar, since I'm pretty sure I can't have 2 familiars (unless I'm wrong?)?
What are some good Wizard spells to take, up to level 12 (Wizard level 9)?
Anything superb for me to take for my level 12, 15, & 18 feats?
Any other tips or advice?


I've already read through these (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11610) two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268661-3-5-Pulvis-Et-Umbra-Sumus-The-Shadowcaster-Handbook) handbooks, in case anybody was thinking of linking them to me :smallsmile:

[sideswipe]

you can have two familiars. there wouldn't be a feat that gives a second familiar otherwise.
(though it is dragon mag)

though if i were you i would consider specialist wizard conjurer with abrupt jaunt. you seem to be adding in a bit of combat with the whole weapon finesse. but this would allow you to quick teleport away from things that are too big. and ruin their charge.

[WeaselGuy]

you can have two familiars. there wouldn't be a feat that gives a second familiar otherwise.
(though it is dragon mag)

though if i were you i would consider specialist wizard conjurer with abrupt jaunt. you seem to be adding in a bit of combat with the whole weapon finesse. but this would allow you to quick teleport away from things that are too big. and ruin their charge.

Aha! Thanks, I knew there was something awesome like that, I just couldn't remember it. So, yeah, that works, I can be a Conjurer, which schools should I blacklist though? Unless I'm mistaken, if I ban a school from Wizard, I can't use spells from that school for any other casting class, and mysteries have spell schools associated with them. Initially, I was thinking banning Evocation, since in general it's pretty lackluster, and our Sorcerer is filling the iconic Blaster-Caster roll. I don't really wanna lose Divination, Illusion or Transmutation either. Necromancy is an option I suppose, it doesn't look like there's much from Shadowcaster that falls in that school. Abjuration seems rather lackluster as well, but I could be mistaken (it's a little bit of a pain cross-referencing mystery schools with which ones are good).

[sideswipe]

Aha! Thanks, I knew there was something awesome like that, I just couldn't remember it. So, yeah, that works, I can be a Conjurer, which schools should I blacklist though? Unless I'm mistaken, if I ban a school from Wizard, I can't use spells from that school for any other casting class, and mysteries have spell schools associated with them. Initially, I was thinking banning Evocation, since in general it's pretty lackluster, and our Sorcerer is filling the iconic Blaster-Caster roll. I don't really wanna lose Divination, Illusion or Transmutation either. Necromancy is an option I suppose, it doesn't look like there's much from Shadowcaster that falls in that school. Abjuration seems rather lackluster as well, but I could be mistaken (it's a little bit of a pain cross-referencing mystery schools with which ones are good).

evocation is just losing wall of force (a heavy loss) so that is a given.

repeat after me NEVER BAN CONJURATION OR TRANSMUTATION
you cannot ban divination
i suggest not banning illusion or abjuration.

this leaves necromancy and enchantment. i would look through your mysteries and choose the one that will hinder you the least. though both are very commonly dumped as the worst schools.

[WeaselGuy]

evocation is just losing wall of force (a heavy loss) so that is a given.

repeat after me NEVER BAN CONJURATION OR TRANSMUTATION
you cannot ban divination
i suggest not banning illusion or abjuration.

this leaves necromancy and enchantment. i would look through your mysteries and choose the one that will hinder you the least. though both are very commonly dumped as the worst schools.

Yeah, I wouldn't ban Conj or Trans (can't ban Conj, I'm specializing in it lol) and I was pretty sure I couldn't ban Div, not that I would anyway.

I didn't want to ban Illusion, and was unsure of Abj, but given the good Abj spells, it was low on the list of ban-able schools anyways.
Evocation also has the Arrow of Dusk fundamental, but I can stand to lose it.
Necro has a few nice touch spell goodies, which might synergize well with Flickering in, bad-touching people, and Jaunting out (can I do that? use 2 Immediate actions on the same turn?)
This leaves me with Enchantment. The top tier Enchantment mysteries kinda blow, and the lower ones are rather lame as well. I've never really been one to use Command and Dominate anyways.

So yeah. Gonna ban Evocation and Enchantment. There's a lot of decent Necro and Abj mysteries that I like, now that I look through them a little more.

Now, for my feats. I forgot that I get a small number of bonus Shadow feats as well, based on the number of Paths I delve into (1 feat for every 2 paths, 6 paths by the end of my build, based on how many I want to complete.), in addition to my level 12, 15, and 18 feats. Suggestions?

Edit: Also, if I have Fundamentals/Mysteries from Evocation/Enchantment before banning those schools, do I keep those spells, or do I lose them?

Fundamentals: Arrow of Dusk, Umbral Hand, Black Candle, Sight Obscured, Mystic Reflections, Caul of Shadow, and ??? (the last 3 suck)
Paths: Dark Terrain (3/3), Ebon Whispers (3/3), Dark Reflections (3/3), Veil of Shadows (3/3), Dark Metamorphasis (3/3), Breath of Twilight (2/3)

[sideswipe]

unless you have a way of taking more then one swift action then no you cannot take two immediate actions.

[lsfreak]

Unless I'm mistaken, if I ban a school from Wizard, I can't use spells from that school for any other casting class, and mysteries have spell schools associated with them.

Thankfully, you are mistaken. Implicitly, it only ever refers to the wizard side of the class having prohibited school. Explicitly:

One way around [being unable to cast prohibited spells] is for a specialist wizard to take levels in sorcerer, using her sorcerer spellcasting ability to master the spells and magic items she cannot use as a wizard.

[WeaselGuy]

Thankfully, you are mistaken. Implicitly, it only ever refers to the wizard side of the class having prohibited school. Explicitly:

Yeah, I actually found that excerpt a few hours after my last post, and was very thankful.

Also, I'm pretty sure I figured out my feats...

1 - Darkstalker
2 - SC Bonus Feat - Extend Spell
3 - Shadow Familiar
4 - Wizard ACF Bonus Feat - Weapon Finesse
6 - Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration)
9 - Improved Familiar
11 - SC Bonus Feat - Sculpt Spell
12 - Craft Wondrous Item
15 - Enlarge Spell
17 - SC Bonus Feat - Twin Spell
18 - Persistent Spell

Although, Improved Familiar and Enlarge Spell can be subject to change.

[sideswipe]

i would take a flaw and take collegate wizard for more free spells per level. saves a lot of money in the long run. and if your DM is not nice at just handing out spells you can get twice as many with one feat for free.

Alacritous Cogitation gives you the ability to leave one of your spell slots open and spontaneously prepare and cast as a full round action 1/day. its a great get out of jail free card.

cloudy conjuration is great if your going to be up close (and with your feat choices you look to be)

craft contingent spell is really good.

improved initiative is solid, but not my first choice.

[atemu1234]

evocation is just losing wall of force (a heavy loss) so that is a given.

repeat after me NEVER BAN CONJURATION OR TRANSMUTATION
you cannot ban divination
i suggest not banning illusion or abjuration.

this leaves necromancy and enchantment. i would look through your mysteries and choose the one that will hinder you the least. though both are very commonly dumped as the worst schools.

I'd ban evocation LONG before I'd ban abjuration.

[WeaselGuy]

i would take a flaw and take collegate wizard for more free spells per level. saves a lot of money in the long run. and if your DM is not nice at just handing out spells you can get twice as many with one feat for free.

Alacritous Cogitation gives you the ability to leave one of your spell slots open and spontaneously prepare and cast as a full round action 1/day. its a great get out of jail free card.

cloudy conjuration is great if your going to be up close (and with your feat choices you look to be)

craft contingent spell is really good.

improved initiative is solid, but not my first choice.

In order to take Collegiate Wizard, I have to move my Wizard level to 1, which isn't terrible, per se, but I wouldn't be able to take Weapon Finesse. Which, actually, isn't doing anything for me, so I could swap it out for Improved Initiative. So I'd have something that looks kinda like this, maybe?



1
Wizard (Conjurer)
Improved Initiative, Collegiate Wizard


2
Shadowcaster



3
Shadowcaster
Shadow Familiar, Extend Spell



4
Shadowcaster



5
Wizard (Conjurer)



6
Wizard (Conjurer)
Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration)


7
Noctumancer



8
Noctumancer



9
Noctumancer
Craft Wondrous Item


10
Noctumancer



11
Noctumancer
Sculpt Spell


12
Noctumancer
Cloudy Conjuration


13
Noctumancer



14
Noctumancer



15
Noctumancer
Craft Contingent Spell


16
Noctumancer



17
Mystic Theurge
Twin Spell


18
Mystic Theurge
Persistent Spell


19
Mystic Theurge



20
Mystic Theurge

[sideswipe]

what are you using to add metamagic for lower cost? just metamagic school focus? i suggest looking at this. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0)

[WeaselGuy]

what are you using to add metamagic for lower cost? just metamagic school focus? i suggest looking at this. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0)

Yeah, that's all I'm using. I can't afford the class levels to get features from other PrC's, and the other feats are either Dragon Magazine, require a specific spell, or only work on spontaneously cast spells.

[Zaq]

I don't think Shadow Familiar lets you get a familiar if you already have one from being a Wizard. ToM pg. 138 says that you acquire a familiar "in the same way as a Sorcerer or Wizard," and that "your levels in all classes that allow you to cast mysteries or arcane spells stack." Jump over to PHB pg. 54, and we see "A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time."

That seems pretty clear-cut to me that you can't have both a normal familiar and a Shadow Familiar, since Shadow Familiar is "in the same way as a Sorcerer or Wizard," and the way a Sorcerer or Wizard does it prevents you from having two at once, even with two classes that grant one.

Also, "familiar" no longer looks like a word. I guess I've just become overly familiar with it! (. . . Sorry.) (. . . Not actually sorry.)

[WeaselGuy]

I don't think Shadow Familiar lets you get a familiar if you already have one from being a Wizard. ToM pg. 138 says that you acquire a familiar "in the same way as a Sorcerer or Wizard," and that "your levels in all classes that allow you to cast mysteries or arcane spells stack." Jump over to PHB pg. 54, and we see "A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time."

That seems pretty clear-cut to me that you can't have both a normal familiar and a Shadow Familiar, since Shadow Familiar is "in the same way as a Sorcerer or Wizard," and the way a Sorcerer or Wizard does it prevents you from having two at once, even with two classes that grant one.

Also, "familiar" no longer looks like a word. I guess I've just become overly familiar with it! (. . . Sorry.) (. . . Not actually sorry.)

I was pretty sure it was mentioned above, but just in case, I'm using the Abrupt Jaunt ACF in lieu of my wizard familiar. And, even if I wasn't, just because you CAN have a familiar at level 1 means that you HAVE to have one. The acquisition of a familiar can be delayed.

[sideswipe]

Yeah, that's all I'm using. I can't afford the class levels to get features from other PrC's, and the other feats are either Dragon Magazine, require a specific spell, or only work on spontaneously cast spells.

if you take precocious apprentice at level 1 you can qualify for nocturmancer with wizard 1, nocturmancer 3. meaning you can take 2 levels in a class to reduce metamagic meaning you can ask if you can take 1 level of Halruuan Elder. and you still have a level to play with. so you can get 9ths at level 19 instead of at 20.

[WeaselGuy]

if you take precocious apprentice at level 1 you can qualify for nocturmancer with wizard 1, nocturmancer 3. meaning you can take 2 levels in a class to reduce metamagic meaning you can ask if you can take 1 level of Halruuan Elder. and you still have a level to play with. so you can get 9ths at level 19 instead of at 20.

Seems like in order to pull that off, I need to either ditch Collegiate Wizard, take a flaw (which the DM frowns upon) or be a Human/Strongheart Halfling (I really like Tiefling). I also like Collegiate Wizard so...

Thanks for the suggestion though! I'll keep it in mind for when I do a Metamagic Focused Wizard in a future high-op campaign.