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TPKKobolds
2015-02-15, 01:22 PM
How does one make a medium lethality game? How many hints are sufficient before something horrible happens? I could also use some help with traps, my iron kingdoms players are going to be entering liar of a colony of blighted gobbers who are paranoid and obsessed with traps. (so basically kobolds) I have few ideas, but I'd like to run it by the fokes of the playground.

They enter through a drainage system. The waters are foamy from moving quickly. I will have everyone take an agility test or fall and take trivial damage. Later, everyone will take a perception test. Out of the people who fail, i will roll randomly and one person will step in a narrow, deep hole. Their leg will fall through and be sprained(-1 to movement and defense for the session) If the players haven't caught on that it is dangerous, the person on point will fall into a 10 by 10 by 10 pit submerged in the water. Wearing full plate.

They notice that drainage pipes leading up are sometimes covered in reinforced grates. These ripped apart lead them up quicker, but they can be used as murder holes later.

When they exit the drainage pipes, an ascending stair case will have a band of glass on it. Looking at it further, the glass has been treated with a minor toxin. Later, when they enter farther in, those who have not put their armor back on may step on bunji sticks. Medicine roll to prevent infection, as well as some alchemical treatments.

At some point there will be a greatsword sticking out of the dirt randomly. It will be covered in an oil. If they ask, it has been cleaned recently. Picking it up will trigger a cinder bomb.
Are all of these traps reasonable?

Darth Ultron
2015-02-15, 03:27 PM
The traps are fine, but you need to make things clear to the players before the game. Sit them all down and explain what you mean by ''Lethality''.

Most players think by default playing an RPG is like a cartoon: The characters can get hurt...a little...but they won't die.

the OOD
2015-02-15, 04:31 PM
give a warning, but play to kill.

have an NPC warn them about some general traps and threats "the traps have killed everyone we've sent down! they have spear-shooters in the walls, and all kinds of things under the water! my cousin drowned down there!" so it is not totally unexpected and the players are aware of the danger, then build traps meant to kill. and leave more warnings for other high-lethality dangers. and skeletons. skeletons are good. bonus points if the player can identify the body.

lethal? yup. fair? yup.
survival or death based on informed decisions? yup.
moderate lethality in a fun-but-dangerous manner? done.

actually, this is good general advice for most highly-lethal encounters in a *non-Gygaxian* game(a baddie dealing str drain can be OK, but let them see other victims first so they know what's coming)

basicly, one clear, informative warning giving some info about the danger is enough, and allows you to build some *very* nasty challenges:smallbiggrin:

Yora
2015-02-15, 04:31 PM
I think it's important to make the players know that the characters are in danger before it hits them. They need to know that there is a risk for their characters survival and decide to take the risk or not. Which is also quite important: You need to give them options how to accomplish their goals and allow them to not fight something if they think it's too dangerous.
And retreat should always be an option. Not necessarily a good option, but one they can make. If that leads to them failing at their goal, that's how it goes. Neither give them certainty that they will win, nor that they can't. Having them judge how much they want to risk is a big part of this.

nedz
2015-02-15, 05:11 PM
Just tell them to make a couple of backup characters — and say nothing more about it.


And retreat should always be an option. Not necessarily a good option, but one they can make.

But then you miss the delicious panic which set in when they realise that

They have to run away
The exit had just been sealed

Yora
2015-02-16, 09:31 AM
They should have a way to get out. Does not have to be an easy or pleasant way. :smallbiggrin:

Gritmonger
2015-02-16, 10:20 AM
Have something early on to let them know to be observant.

Throwing one perception 'save' at everybody at once to avoid spraining with no warning, for instance, to me is a bit unfair.

If you state early on that the footing is unsure, players are on their own when they run into slippery moss underfoot with no preparation, and a dexterity save might be called for when potentially slipping into a hole designed to sprain if it is in no way observable.

If players know the ground might be treacherous and can't see it - then that's the argument for the classic ten-foot-pole.

As a for-instance: I had players recently go into a sewer. Visible piles of detritus were everywhere -and a few minor encounters led to them realizing that these were prime hiding places for giant centipedes. Lesson one: make sure you check the loose piles of debris before simply walking on them.

They started running into a set of decaying corpses under piles of debris, in varying states of decay. They hadn't encountered a carrion crawler before, but the fluff descriptions outline that this is how a carrion crawler 'ages' or 'seasons' its food. When they ran into it finally, it made sense, and they could see how it was a warning sign. Lesson two: look for clues in the environment.

Another encounter had a small pile of debris - belt buckles, coins, small weapons, and so-on, at the end of the passage up against the wall they were looking at. Right above this was the very small hole that an ochre jelly used to get to its lair, which was often too wide for other debris that might be stuck in it after feeding. Afterward, this all made sense. Lesson three: 'treasure' in the open is probably a sign that something is wrong.

If you have your traps and ambushes littered with clues, or give appropriate players enough of a warning that something doesn't seem right, it's fair and much less of an argument when something bad happens, and they can look back and see: they were reckless, or ignored clues, or missed some details.

I'm not a fan of no-warning team penalties. Have notice DC's on traps, and potentially give bonuses to trapmasters. Have saves for avoiding, since that's really your last chance to notice. I wouldn't have the only notice be the save DC - that to me smacks too much of the "save or die" mechanic.

Beta Centauri
2015-02-16, 06:38 PM
Trying to fine tune the level of lethality is, I've found, more trouble than it's worth. I suppose you might get good at it with practice, but until you've had practice it's a lot of hiding and blocking to keep the danger up, and a lot of fudging and hinting to keep the damage down. I have no tolerance for this, so I've never gotten good at balancing lethality.

I see it basically as black-and-white, that you shouldn't be trying to kill the PC when you don't actually want to kill them. It's like trying to have a loaded gun be moderately lethal. Sure, you might not destroy the thing it's pointing at when it goes off, but you should assume you will.

So, my advice is to do your best, resort to the traditional GM rigmarole as much as you can tolerate it, and then be ready for whatever happens. If they survive with trivial ease, great, moving on. If they die, you do whatever you have planned for when they die. You do have something planned for that, right?

nedz
2015-02-16, 06:55 PM
If they die, you do whatever you have planned for when they die. You do have something planned for that, right?

How would I be running a Sandbox if I planned for that now ?

Judging the strength of the party is a skill you can learn. OK at the beginning of a new campaign it's tricky, doubly so if they are low level, because parties take a while to work out their synergies — so you have to be careful, at first. But after a while you should be able to work that out. Most player's I've run games for like a challenging encounter or two — though maybe your table is different: IDK ?