What to do with a Necropolitan Spellcaster..?

[Rusvul]

Hello. I'm new to both this forum and character optimization, and because I'm doing the latter I thought it might be beneficial to consult the former. So here I am.

In about a month I'll be joining a new campaign, and I'd like to make an annoying character. Spellcasters are fun, I've played Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric before... And then I find Generic Spellcaster while looking through UA. Woah. Crazy spell choice.

A little more research (And clearing Spellcaster with my DM) and I decide that a Necropolitan Spellcaster would be neat, especially because my DM likes to pay attention to things like eating and provisions.

My DM is experienced in character optimization, and he's been helpful with ideas and such, but I want to have a few tricks up my sleeve... If he knows what I'm doing, he can prepare. I'm allowed to use different things from different supplements, but if it's non-core I have to clear it first.

We're starting at first level, in a city that is intolerant of nonhumans. Elves and kobolds are some of the main villains in the world, not unlike orcs or goblins. If I'm obviously nonhuman, especially if I'm a kobold, I'll be eviscerated (figuratively, of course I store things more important than guts in my chest cavity) too quickly. If I decide to be a Divine Spellcaster, I won't be able to get away with being dedicated to an ideal or principle, I need to follow a god or saint from my DM's large and unique pantheon.

For abilities, I get an enhanced array- a 16, two 14s, two 10s, and an 8, with the ability to move two points and add five, with 18 being the limit before modifiers from race, age, and such. We start at first level, but I will be able to pay off my Necropolitan-ness by some other means, the gold and the XP required for crucimigration isn't important at the moment.

So far I've got a few ideas. I might play a sort of debuffing necromancer, taking Arcane Spellcaster and summoning zombies. Or I might go Divine and play a gish... With a d12 hit die, once I get to second level I should have enough health to do some combat with obnoxious kobolds... On the other hand, I do die at 0 HP, instead of -10... Still, with three times as many hitpoints as a standard caster, I think I'd make a reasonable gish. BAB might be a problem, though. If my DM will let me, I'd love to play a Tainted Scholar, but somehow I doubt he'd allow that... And because I've heard no prior mention of Heroes of Horror being a part of our campaign, I might find it hard to accumulate taint.

But here's where I get stuck: I don't know the rules all that well. I know the basics, and I've looked through some supplements, but I don't really know what works well with what, or what works well and what doesn't, nor do I have a list of inventive gimmicks handy. There aren't very many Generic Spellcaster guides out there (None that I've been able to find) and I think I'd just like to know what kind of inventive things people have done, so... Any recommendations are welcome. :)

(I might have done something wrong in where I posted this thread or something along those lines. I don't think I have, but... Apologies if I did.)

[Troacctid]

My favorite trick with Generic Spellcaster is single-class qualification for Arcane Trickster, which is normally a super-annoying class to get into. You get your 2d6 sneak attack easy-peasy. The skill requirements are still annoying, but you can at least do it without dropping caster levels and snag full sneak attack progression. Grab the Acidic Splatter reserve feat for an easy source of infinite ammo, and set up sneak attacks by using magic to be invisible or blinking or whatever.

You will probably want Int as your key stat as due to the extra skill points it's just generally better than Cha.

[Suteinu]

Put him in a longboat 'till he's sober.
Shave his belly with a rusty razor.
Put him in bed with the captain's daughter.

[Rusvul]

Thanks, Troacctid, I hadn't even considered Arcane Trickster... I'm not sure what the benefit really is, though... I want to blast/debuff/summon/buff (haven't decided what casting style I want to play) things, ranged legerdemain seems kind of... useless. Especially if we have another skillmonkey in the party. Which we might, I have no idea.

However, more research has revealed that Mage of the Arcane Order would be great. I can have the versatility of a Wizard, albeit with less efficiency, having to repay spellpool debt and such. But if I learn most of the spells I'd need in combat, and stick to the spellpool for things that I would normally leave to Wizards... I can do whatever I want whenever I want too. Seems amazing!

...But I seem to have a problem. One of the prerequisites for entry is 8 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. My DM intends to use a hybrid game system ("3.6") that is 90% 3.5 but with a few aspects from Pathfinder... Which means I can't have more ranks in a skill than I have hit dice. 8th level before being able to enter Mage of the Arcane Order.... Assuming that he's willing to let me count the +3 from investing a skill point in a class skill as 'ranks' for the purposes of the entry requirement, that still leaves me taking my first level of Mage of the Arcane Order at 6th level. I'd really rather get in earlier if possible... Are there any ways I could either circumvent the hybrid skill system, or abuse it?

[Xuldarinar]

-snip-
...But I seem to have a problem. One of the prerequisites for entry is 8 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. My DM intends to use a hybrid game system ("3.6") that is 90% 3.5 but with a few aspects from Pathfinder... Which means I can't have more ranks in a skill than I have hit dice. 8th level before being able to enter Mage of the Arcane Order.... Assuming that he's willing to let me count the +3 from investing a skill point in a class skill as 'ranks' for the purposes of the entry requirement, that still leaves me taking my first level of Mage of the Arcane Order at 6th level. I'd really rather get in earlier if possible... Are there any ways I could either circumvent the hybrid skill system, or abuse it?

Generally speaking, 3.5 skill requirements when used with pathfinder are reduced by 3, so there shouldn't be a problem there. Earlier entry, Im afraid there is no means by which one can get extra skill ranks above and beyond the limit by level, that I know of.

[Rusvul]

Yeah... I can't find anything to accomplish that short of ridiculous cheese that my DM would never allow (Turning into a giant, using Cannibalize to gain hit dice, and then use Psychic Reformation -_-) so it seems I'm out of luck there. Now I'm looking around to see if there's another PrC I could enter earlier to get me some kind of useful class feature while I wait level 6. :P

[Troacctid]

Thanks, Troacctid, I hadn't even considered Arcane Trickster... I'm not sure what the benefit really is, though... I want to blast/debuff/summon/buff (haven't decided what casting style I want to play) things, ranged legerdemain seems kind of... useless. Especially if we have another skillmonkey in the party. Which we might, I have no idea.
Well, it's great for blasting, what with the extra damage, and it gives you a secondary role as a stealthy skillmonkey essentially for free, since you don't lose any casting. I also like it because it's something you can do as a generic spellcaster significantly better than any other class could do it.


But I seem to have a problem. One of the prerequisites for entry is 8 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. My DM intends to use a hybrid game system ("3.6") that is 90% 3.5 but with a few aspects from Pathfinder... Which means I can't have more ranks in a skill than I have hit dice. 8th level before being able to enter Mage of the Arcane Order.... Assuming that he's willing to let me count the +3 from investing a skill point in a class skill as 'ranks' for the purposes of the entry requirement, that still leaves me taking my first level of Mage of the Arcane Order at 6th level. I'd really rather get in earlier if possible... Are there any ways I could either circumvent the hybrid skill system, or abuse it?
The only way to get above the normal skill rank cap in 3.5 without cheese or wonky weird rules interactions is the Primary Contact feat from Cityscape. It...probably isn't worth it.

[Rusvul]

Wait wait wait. Can I apply Sneak Attack to spells? Or is that just normal attacks? If it works on spells... A much better class than I gave it credit for... 'Sneaky Fireball! Take all the d6s!'

[Troacctid]

You can apply sneak attack to attacks. So if the spell is an attack (i.e. requires an attack roll) then yes, you can totally sneak attack with it. Scorching Ray, Orb of Fire, Shocking Grasp, etc. It doesn't normally work with area spells...unless you use the Pathfinder version of Arcane Trickster, which gives you the ability to apply sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage.

[Xuldarinar]

If using 3.5 PrCs, if you want to do sneak attacks with spells then I suggest considering the spellwarp sniper.

{Scrubbed Link}

[DMVerdandi]

Hello. I'm new to both this forum and character optimization, and because I'm doing the latter I thought it might be beneficial to consult the former. So here I am.

In about a month I'll be joining a new campaign, and I'd like to make an annoying character. Spellcasters are fun, I've played Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric before... And then I find Generic Spellcaster while looking through UA. Woah. Crazy spell choice.

A little more research (And clearing Spellcaster with my DM) and I decide that a Necropolitan Spellcaster would be neat, especially because my DM likes to pay attention to things like eating and provisions.

My DM is experienced in character optimization, and he's been helpful with ideas and such, but I want to have a few tricks up my sleeve... If he knows what I'm doing, he can prepare. I'm allowed to use different things from different supplements, but if it's non-core I have to clear it first.

We're starting at first level, in a city that is intolerant of nonhumans. Elves and kobolds are some of the main villains in the world, not unlike orcs or goblins. If I'm obviously nonhuman, especially if I'm a kobold, I'll be eviscerated (figuratively, of course I store things more important than guts in my chest cavity) too quickly. If I decide to be a Divine Spellcaster, I won't be able to get away with being dedicated to an ideal or principle, I need to follow a god or saint from my DM's large and unique pantheon.

For abilities, I get an enhanced array- a 16, two 14s, two 10s, and an 8, with the ability to move two points and add five, with 18 being the limit before modifiers from race, age, and such. We start at first level, but I will be able to pay off my Necropolitan-ness by some other means, the gold and the XP required for crucimigration isn't important at the moment.

So far I've got a few ideas. I might play a sort of debuffing necromancer, taking Arcane Spellcaster and summoning zombies. Or I might go Divine and play a gish... With a d12 hit die, once I get to second level I should have enough health to do some combat with obnoxious kobolds... On the other hand, I do die at 0 HP, instead of -10... Still, with three times as many hitpoints as a standard caster, I think I'd make a reasonable gish. BAB might be a problem, though. If my DM will let me, I'd love to play a Tainted Scholar, but somehow I doubt he'd allow that... And because I've heard no prior mention of Heroes of Horror being a part of our campaign, I might find it hard to accumulate taint.

But here's where I get stuck: I don't know the rules all that well. I know the basics, and I've looked through some supplements, but I don't really know what works well with what, or what works well and what doesn't, nor do I have a list of inventive gimmicks handy. There aren't very many Generic Spellcaster guides out there (None that I've been able to find) and I think I'd just like to know what kind of inventive things people have done, so... Any recommendations are welcome. :)

(I might have done something wrong in where I posted this thread or something along those lines. I don't think I have, but... Apologies if I did.)


>Suggestions? Take the few great divine buffs that you need (divine favor, divine power. etc).
>Take summon undead at every level.
>Fill the rest of your spells up with buffs and Debuffs.
>Take one blast spell, and get a reserve feat for it.
>Use rune staves for spells you want but don't "need"

Continue forward with your mage of the arcane order progression.
You should be good.

[Necroticplague]

Suggestion for a feat: human heritage. Makes you a Humanoid, but you keep your undead traits. So you can shrug off all the specific anti-undead effects, while still benefiting from all the immunities.

[Xuldarinar]

Suggestion for a feat: human heritage. Makes you a Humanoid, but you keep your undead traits. So you can shrug off all the specific anti-undead effects, while still benefiting from all the immunities.

No. Im gonna have to draw the line on that one. I do not believe that would work.


Necropolitan is an acquired template, one that you are required to be at least a bit into 2nd level before they even try to obtain or they die permanently, provided the necropolitans accept their plea. If you could obtain the feat after, then that is fine, but you cannot. It is a feat you get upon creation at 1str level, it is something applied below it. What you are suggesting means that no matter what template is applied to them, they remain humanoid. I really don't think it would work that way.

[Necroticplague]

No. Im gonna have to draw the line on that one. I do not believe that would work.
Fortunately, belief doesn't have the power to change how things work.


Necropolitan is an acquired template, one that you are required to be at least a bit into 2nd level before they even try to obtain or they die permanently, provided the necropolitans accept their plea. If you could obtain the feat after, then that is fine, but you cannot. It is a feat you get upon creation at 1st level, it is something applied below it. What you are suggesting means that no matter what template is applied to them, they remain humanoid. I really don't think it would work that way.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. You continue to receive the benefit of a feat as long as you meet the prerequisites. The prerequisite for Human heritage is being a human-descendant race, and its benefit is making you a Humanoid(Human). Thus, as long as you remain of a human-descended race [for which, changing would pretty much require a Reincarnate or similar], you are a Humanoid(Human). Care to say why it would work otherwise?

[Xuldarinar]

Fortunately, belief doesn't have the power to change how things work.



Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. You continue to receive the benefit of a feat as long as you meet the prerequisites. The prerequisite for Human heritage is being a human-descendant race, and its benefit is making you a Humanoid(Human). Thus, as long as you remain of a human-descended race [for which, changing would pretty much require a Reincarnate or similar], you are a Humanoid(Human). Care to say why it would work otherwise?

More from the angle of RaI than RaW. The feat's purpose is you are designated as more human than most members of your half-race or human descended race. In this circumstance, which I understand from a raw standpoint, we get into a scenario where one can constantly stack acquired templates. Not to mention that because of their extra humanness, they cannot be fully undead. You could be a necropolitan vampire spawn lich death knight ect. and they would still be considered a humanoid. To me, the feat is applied before the template, thus the undead typing would still take over. Keeping the feat being applied after all templates means that no matter what you do, the character remains humanoid. Unless I misunderstand this, the character essentially remains alive, no matter how many times/ways/ect. they are turned into an undead creature.

If no one shares my objection or point of view on this, then that is fine. It is just my opinion after all.

[PseudoPanda]

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. You continue to receive the benefit of a feat as long as you meet the prerequisites. The prerequisite for Human heritage is being a human-descendant race, and its benefit is making you a Humanoid(Human). Thus, as long as you remain of a human-descended race [for which, changing would pretty much require a Reincarnate or similar], you are a Humanoid(Human). Care to say why it would work otherwise?

However, if that works then you really don't gain anything from going necropolitan because "Undead Immunities" are not a feature of the template; it only turns you undead and that is what gives you those abilities. I guess your HD changes to d12 and it could be argued that you retain your Con score since the template says that is due to changing to the undead type so that could be a useful trick but probably not likely to fly at most tables

[Necroticplague]

More from the angle of RaI than RaW. The feat's purpose is you are designated as more human than most members of your half-race or human descended race. In this circumstance, which I understand from a raw standpoint, we get into a scenario where one can constantly stack acquired templates. Not to mention that because of their extra humanness, they cannot be fully undead. You could be a necropolitan vampire spawn lich death knight ect. and they would still be considered a humanoid. To me, the feat is applied before the template, thus the undead typing would still take over. Keeping the feat being applied after all templates means that no matter what you do, the character remains humanoid. Unless I misunderstand this, the character essentially remains alive, no matter how many times/ways/ect. they are turned into an undead creature. Actually, once they have one undead template applied to them, their race would change, becoming, say,Lich Human, an undead creature. Then, the feat kicks in, making them humanoid (but with the traits of the undead, including lack of a CON score, and thus not being alive). Once they get a template, they aren't alive, so that bolded (by you, italicized by me) point is wrong. While you are technically correct that this could open up silly template shenanigans, most templates are so poor as to not be worth it (and the ones that are already are fairly open in who can take them).


However, if that works then you really don't gain anything from going necropolitan because "Undead Immunities" are not a feature of the template; it only turns you undead and that is what gives you those abilities. I guess your HD changes to d12 and it could be argued that you retain your Con score since the template says that is due to changing to the undead type so that could be a useful trick but probably not likely to fly at most tables
Well, you do get all of the Undead Traits, due to Human Heritage specifying that you get to keep those (combined with my reason above). Some of the Necropolitan features would be useless in this combo (turn resistance and resist control), but the combo renders you immune to those things anyway.

[PseudoPanda]

Human heritage says you retain any trait common to creatures of your original type. Undead would not be the original type in this case since that was acquired. Guess if you become a necropilitan, then chaos shuffle or psy reform to get human heritage you can argue that you retain your undead traits but it's still questionable.

Anyway I think this is wandering too far from what the OP was asking for so if we want to continue this conversation it's probably best to make a new thread.

[Necroticplague]

Agreed on that last part.



So to try and re-rail; I offer up a more neutral feat suggestion: Lifesight. It's a bit redundant with the Darkvision your already have, but its noticeably useful in stopping people from sneaking up on you (since, to your eyes, almost all of them are carrying torches). Plus it helps you identify who's nonliving (and thus,probably has poor FORT saves) very easily.

[Rusvul]

>Suggestions? Take the few great divine buffs that you need (divine favor, divine power. etc).
>Take summon undead at every level.
>Fill the rest of your spells up with buffs and Debuffs.
>Take one blast spell, and get a reserve feat for it.
>Use rune staves for spells you want but don't "need"

Continue forward with your mage of the arcane order progression.
You should be good.

This is very helpful, thank you. I think I'll either do this or go blasty, depending on what other casters exist in our group. If there's another guy to hit things with fire (Or acid or sound or cold or force or anything else, you get the idea) , I'll leave that to them, and stick to more tactical spells... Oh, and thanks for bringing Summon Undead to my attention. That makes taking Harm spells probably more valuable than Cure spells...

I would ideally take a blast spell as a second level spell, then at higher levels be able to forget it for a more useful one. Is there a specific reserve feat that deals damage that would be useful for a higher-level spell as well as a lower tier one? Like... I might take Scorching Ray as a spell and Fiery Burst as a reserve... A little later on, if I wanted to, I could drop Scorching Ray for something more useful and pick up Fireball, then use Fiery Burst more effectively. But I don't know how that would work on higher levels... Is there a particular energy type that has a low level spell, a mid level spell, and a 9th level spell that are all reasonably good?

(That may or may not be a really overcomplicated question.)

Regardless, thanks for having ideas, people. Forums are great.

[Troacctid]

I can't remember if the rules let you power reserve feats with Heighten Spell, but I do remember using Acidic Splatter on one of my casters and finding enough reasonable acid spells to power it at every spell level until I retired the character at 12th level. I think I went with acid arrow, caustic smoke, caustic mire, acid rain, and acid storm.

[Jack_Simth]

So far I've got a few ideas. I might play a sort of debuffing necromancer, taking Arcane Spellcaster and summoning zombies. Or I might go Divine and play a gish... With a d12 hit die, once I get to second level I should have enough health to do some combat with obnoxious kobolds... On the other hand, I do die at 0 HP, instead of -10... Still, with three times as many hitpoints as a standard caster
No. You do NOT have three times as many hit points as a standard caster. In one sense, you've got 4 more; in another, you've got six less. That'll last up until +Con items become feasible, at which point, you will lose out in the HP race (as you can't make use of them).

Your standard caster, with that array, will usually have a 16 in the spellcasting stat, a 14 in Con, and a 14 in Dex. With the addendum of: "with the ability to move two points and add five", that'll be an 18 in the primary spellcasting stat, an 18 in Con, and a 15 in Dex (maybe boosted to 16 later.... but probably not). So at 1st level, that human Wizard is going to have 4+4 HP. At 1st, you'll have 12; a spread of 4 points. At 2nd, that Human Wizard is going to have (on average) 4+2.5+8 hp = 14.5 hp - you'll have (on average) 12+6.5=18.5; a spread of 4 points. At 3rd, that human Wizard is going to have (on average) 4+5+12 hp = 21 hp - you'll have (on average) 12+13=25; a spread of 4 points. With an 18 in Con (very likely, given your stat setup), that d4+4 has the exact same average as your d12 (both 6.5), which means your positive range HP has the difference of first level where the dice are maximized - 4 points.

The amount of damage you can take before dying, however, is better for the human. The human gets Death's Door - an extra 10 point leeway - you don't. That 1st level human wizard with 18 Con has 8 HP, and it takes 18 points of damage to kill him outright. You, however, just have your 12 HP. It only takes 12 damage to kill you outright. The human wizard has a six point advantage. In the same way that (on average) your advantage never increases with level, you never catch up (again, on average).

Later on (say, 9th level), the human Wizard is likely to have a +4 Con item (or better - it's a high priority stat, usually just beneath Int) and you can't use such things. That 9th level Wizard will thus have about 22 Con, and thus 4+(2.5*8)+6*9=78 hp. You'll have 12+(6.5*8)=64 hp. You're now 14 points behind, rather than 4 ahead, because the human added 2 HP/level on retroactively - which at this juncture is 18 HP, negating your advantage and then some.

Worse: The human Wizard has PrC's (such as, say, Abjurant Champion) available later on, which grant a bigger hit die.

Undead are actually quite fragile, unless your DM also imported Pathfinder's undead type definition (in which case, you'd almost certainly get d8's, rather than a d12, but you'd get to apply Charisma - which could be your primary casting stat - to your HP and Fort saves as well... which IS a worthwhile trade).

----------------------------------------------------------

As for useful suggestions: Well, that all depends on how you want to play things. Mage of the Arcane Order is great for any arcane-based spellcaster - it grants some spontanaeity to a Wizard, and some extra spell access and the ability to plan ahead for specific challenges to a Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Beguilder, or Sorcerer. It also pays back it's feat investment in metamagic, and it's worth noting that a Ring of Spell Storing combines well with Mage of the Arcane Order - as while you can't store Spellpool spells in your head across days, you CAN store it in a ring of Spell Storing - this lets you set up combinations you normally could not, such as, say, Calling a Magic Circle Against Evil and putting it in the ring one day, Dimensional Anchor the next, and then using all both along with a Called Planar Binding spell on the third day to do the Planar Binding Schtick without expending a single spell known (just a decent amount of cash).


I can't remember if the rules let you power reserve feats with Heighten Spell
Exactly as written, per the Complete Mage reserve feat type definition:
For a prepared caster: Yes. You have a prepared spell of the specified level with the right descriptor. Quite straightforward.
For a spontaneous caster: No. While you may be able to cast a spell of the specified level with the right descriptor, you don't know a spell of the specified level with the right descriptor.
For a spontaneous caster with the Arcane Preparation feat: The result is a frog. Sorry, math joke. The result is not really defined. You both prepare spells and cast them spontaneously, while all of the wording in the definition is clearly exclusive. I imagine most DM's will let you power it off of a prepared heightened spell without much argument (this also technically applies in the other direction to a Wizard who has gained the ability to cast spells spontaneously and leaves one slot open at the highest-level - note that there's a couple of ways to do this, the one of which is in Complete Mage itself: Alarcritous Cogitation; a considerably better option is Uncanny Forethought from Exemplars of Evil - if the Wizard knows a spell of the correct level with the appropriate descriptor).

[defiantdan]

if you are allowed grab the Fairy Mysteries Initiate. You now get d12 + INT to hitpoints. You can now laugh at the barbarian. Gray Elf, halfling and humans can grab it I believe. Just have an intimate encounter before you go necro. unless your SO is into that kind of thing. Hat of disguise so you can look normal or use alter self to disguise your undeaded ness. Definitely invest in the skill Disguise.

[M Placeholder]

Put him in bed with the captain's daughter.

Don't be stupid. She would get arrested for necrophilla.

[Jack_Simth]

Don't be stupid. She would get arrested for necrophilla.

You've never seen the captain's daughter early in the morning.

Are you really all that sure they'd arrest her?

[Rusvul]

Okay, I think I've got a pretty decent spell list by now.

0.
Detect Magic
Prestidigitate
Read Magic
Arcane Mark
Caltrops
Ghost Sound
Stick
Detect Poison
Message
(Arcane Mark is for roleplaying reasons.)

1.
Obscuring Mist (Penumbra Bloodline)
Colorspray
Featherfall
Grease
Inflict Light Wounds
Charm person

2.
Darkness (Penumbra Bloodline)
Scorching Ray
Cloud of Bewilderment
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Web

3.
Nondetection (Penumbra Bloodline)
Fireball
Dispel Magic
Fly
Phantom Steed

4.
Evard's Black Tentacles (Penumbra Bloodline)
Solid Fog
Shadow Conjuration
Polymorph
Dimension Door

5.
Shadow Evocation (Penumbra Bloodline)
Cloudkill
Teleport
Dominate Person
Baleful Polymorph

6.
Shadow Walk (Penumbra Bloodline)
Disintigrate
Greater Dispel Magic
Contingency

7.
Plane Shift (Penumbra Bloodline)
Limited Wish
Firestorm
Prismatic Spray

8.
Shadow Evocation, greater (Penumbra Bloodline)
Incendiary Cloud
Field of Icy Razors
Flensing

9.
Etherealness (Penumbra Bloodline)
Reality Maelstrom
Time Stop
Shapechange

I've gone pretty controll-y in my spell selection, I'm wondering if there are any specific spells I've missed out on. My list is mostly arcane, are there any divine spells that are a must-have?

Also wondering about a second PrC... I'm taking seven levels of MotAO, but I'm not sure what to take after that. I would take Loremaster, but I'm not going to end up with seven divination spells- ever, but especially not at 13th level. Archmage? Fatespinner? Maybe take a level of Mindbender?