Vital Strike Questions

[the_archduke]

Someone else had a thread running about the best class to use with vital strike, and I was looking at DSPs Marksman. The Sniper combat style explicitly works with vital strike, and you can get the VS line of feats as bonus feats. At level 20, with a heavy cross bow, you can expend psionic focus to do 16d10 damage with a greater vital strike. (4d10 base quadrupled).

My question is how size increases would factor into this. If you had a half giant marksman wielding a large heavy crossbow and manifesting expansion for two size increases, you would have 4d8 base damage. Using the Sniper Augmented shot at level 20, does this become 16d8 and further quadrupled by GVS to 64d8?

If so, I guess you could even UMD a wand of gravity bow to get your base damage up to 6d8, Augmented shot to 24d8, GVS to 96d8.

Is my math right here?


My other question is how the vital strike line interacts with pinpoint targeting. Can you use both of these at the same time?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pinpoint-targeting-combat---final
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat---final


96d8 resolved almost as a touch attack would be fun.

If my math is right, is there any way to boost the base damage (before Augmented Shot and GVS) to 12d8? That is two more size increases. If so, you could get 192d8...

[the_archduke]

Anybody?

Is this even impressive damage or am I missing something? 192d8 would average 864 damage per shot. Does anything have that many HP?

[lsfreak]

More than likely the feat won't stack. One requires you to take an attack action and the other requires its own standard action, and even (as Curmudgeon likes to point out) the poorly/undefined nature of what an "attack action" actually is, I'm pretty sure they're still mutually exclusive.

[Psyren]

My other question is how the vital strike line interacts with pinpoint targeting. Can you use both of these at the same time?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pinpoint-targeting-combat---final
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat---final

No - they're both standard actions so you would generally only get one. (Schism won't help here either as neither is purely mental.)

The augmented shot + expansion one I'm less clear on, but I have a feeling you're double-counting the increase somewhere. I'd double-check that one on Dreamscarred's forums first.

[Squirrel_Dude]

More than likely the feat won't stack. One requires you to take an attack action and the other requires its own standard action, and even (as Curmudgeon likes to point out) the poorly/undefined nature of what an "attack action" actually is, I'm pretty sure they're still mutually exclusive.In Pathfinder, last I checked, "attack action" is actually a defined thing. An "attack action" is a specific type of standard action, separate from an a normal attack using your iterative attacks.

It's why Vital Strike doesn't stack with something like spring attack (because that would be fun). :smallannoyed:

[Qc Storm]

Look into a Double Hackbut if you want some big damage dice.

I think it works with Vital Strike and Marskman. Then you'll be a genuine sniper.

[lsfreak]

In Pathfinder, last I checked, "attack action" is actually a defined thing. An "attack action" is a specific type of standard action, separate from an a normal attack using your iterative attacks.

Not as far as I can tell. It's like 3.5, where making an attack is a standard action, but there is no definition of an "attack action" (the main problem being that there is a "full attack action" referred to as such). The authors clearly intend it to mean that in PF, and routinely refer to a an "attack action" in contrast to a "full attack action," but PF imported the 3.5 wording so that there's no actual reference to an "attack action" except in the description of other actions.
Note: This is a Curmudgeon-level reading of RAW.
EDIT: And to be clear, 3.5 has this problem as well. Gaze attacks and Spring Attack both refer to the non-existent "attack action." RAI is perfectly clear, to the point most people could (and probably have) spent decades playing without ever noticing the problem, but a very close reading of RAW is ambiguous - do they mean "attack action" to mean an "attack" or a "full attack action?"

[Ssalarn]

It's in the Vital Strike FAQ; an attack action is a specific type of standard action, separate from other standard actions like the one required by Pinpoint Targeting.



My question is how size increases would factor into this. If you had a half giant marksman wielding a large heavy crossbow and manifesting expansion for two size increases, you would have 4d8 base damage. Using the Sniper Augmented shot at level 20, does this become 16d8 and further quadrupled by GVS to 64d8?


I think you're misreading the ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/marksman/marksman-combat-styles). You increase the damage by one die, not one damage die, so you'd have 7d8 base damage GVS up to 28d8.

[Feint's End]

I think you're misreading the ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/marksman/marksman-combat-styles). You increase the damage by one die, not one damage die, so you'd have 7d8 base damage GVS up to 28d8.

This is correct.

28d8 damage averages at 126 damage which is pretty bad for a level 20 archer. It is however a single shot and not all that terrible so it is maybe the best appliance for the feat and the sniper concept in Pathfinder.

[Tulya]

I recall a post somewhere on the DSP forums where they acknowledge the issue of higher (2d6 vs 1d10) or equal (2d6 vs 1d12) damage weapons unintentionally doing less damage due to the rules as written, but I don't remember what the outcome of the thread was. I think there was talk of possible errata, but it never materialized.

[Ssalarn]

This is correct.

28d8 damage averages at 126 damage which is pretty bad for a level 20 archer. It is however a single shot and not all that terrible so it is maybe the best appliance for the feat and the sniper concept in Pathfinder.

Well, it's 28d8 plus an improved crit range, whatever enhancements you have on the weapon, and whatever other damage you can eke out with your psionic feats and powers, so I'd anticipate it being substantially more than 126 damage (still probably a good bit below what other archers are doing though).

The real bummer is that the capstone doesn't stack with Vital Strike, otherwise it'd totally be worth it.

[the_archduke]

Darn, I thought I was on to something.

But with a Half-giant, augmented expansion and UMD wand of gravity bow, you are up to 6d8. Augmented shot up to 9d8. GVS to 36d8. Average 162.


Any way to get more size increases?