5e lore bard optimization plz help

[Vaeldoom]

So I'm currently working on a college of lore bard for my friends 5e campaign he is gonna run and I would love some help optimizing my toon to be the best he can, especially since most of the other party members are optimization freaks usualy running 25 passive perception at lvl 1, so far this is what I have for my bard with us starting at level 6

Race: Half-Elf

Background: Gypsy [homebrew background that was allowed and is found here http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gypsy_(5e_Background) ]

Ability Scores:
Str: 14
Dex: 15
Con: 15
Int: 14
Wis: 18 (rolled a 17)
Cha: 20 (rolled an 18)

Skill's trained in: Deception, insight, investigation, medicine, perception (with expertise), performance, persuasion (with expertise), sleight of hand, stealth, and survival

Current spell list is as follows

Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion, Light

1st: Faerie Fire, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Healing Word

2nd: Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Blindness/Deafness

3rd: Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Dispell Magic, Fireball (lore extra), Aura of Vitality (Lore extra)

I've still yet to decide on my ASI weather or not to bp a stat or get a feat but the few feats I was looking at were Healer, Inspiring Leader, War caster, Spell sniper (eldritch blast pick up), and one who's name I forgot atm but gives 2 Cantrips from a select class and a 1st level spell.

I wana play this character with as much support as possible. be it buffing, debuffing, controll, and healing. But I don't want to take full 20 levels of bard because the capstone sucks, so multiclass suggestions would be appreciated.

Currently the part consists of the following. A monk who loves to punch people after jumping off walls, a barbarian who just rages and hits things with his axe, and a sorcerer just blasts things till they no longer fight. I hope this information helps with some ideas.

I'm open to changing anything that could help my bard be the best he can, including my spells known, also any advice in General will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance fellow playgrounders.

[Mandragola]

All seems basically good. That's an outrageous starting array you've rolled of course, which makes things easier (I think it would cost 60 points to buy, when normal points buy is 27!.. and that's assuming you could buy stats up to 18).

Otherwise you seem to be pretty much there. I don't know if maybe you should know cure wounds as a spell, though aura of vitality might cover the healing well enough. But maybe swap out healing word for cure wounds because right now you have two bonus action heals. Meh, maybe you don't need cure wounds by this point.

Hold person and blindness/deafness are kind of similar spells I suppose, and I'm not sure you'd want to duplicate like this. So maybe I'd look for an alternative there.

[Vaeldoom]

All seems basically good. That's an outrageous starting array you've rolled of course, which makes things easier (I think it would cost 60 points to buy, when normal points buy is 27!.. and that's assuming you could buy stats up to 18).

Otherwise you seem to be pretty much there. I don't know if maybe you should know cure wounds as a spell, though aura of vitality might cover the healing well enough. But maybe swap out healing word for cure wounds because right now you have two bonus action heals. Meh, maybe you don't need cure wounds by this point.

Hold person and blindness/deafness are kind of similar spells I suppose, and I'm not sure you'd want to duplicate like this. So maybe I'd look for an alternative there.

It's good to know I'm not horrible at making bards :) I'll probably swap out healing word for cure, but not sure what I'd replace Blindness/Deafness with. Any suggestions?

[SharkForce]

blindness/deafness requires no concentration. hold does. of course, hold is more powerful, but my basic point is that having an option for effective crowd control which does not require concentration (even if it is less effective) is imo a worthwhile thing.

[xyianth]

It's good to know I'm not horrible at making bards :) I'll probably swap out healing word for cure, but not sure what I'd replace Blindness/Deafness with. Any suggestions?

It's not a bad idea to keep a non-concentration debuff around, but if you were to swap it, I'd strongly consider heat metal, phantasmal force, or silence.

Heat metal is essentially game over for a target wearing metal armor. Phantasmal force will shut down and slowly kill many, many types of enemies since it targets their int save. (generally, the lowest stat in the game) Silence is a no-save, just suck ability against full casters.

As for multiclassing, I'm always a fan of the warlock dip for slots that refresh every short rest and agonizing eldritch blasts + the hex spell. Tome pact can be used to grab the shocking grasp cantrip (for melee use), the guidance cantrip (for out-of-combat buffing of skill checks), and any other cantrip of your choice.

Overall though, you have great stats, your spell list is quite good, and your proposed feat list is excellent. (I'd pick up warcaster first, reaction based spellcasting is awesome)

[Vaeldoom]

blindness/deafness requires no concentration. hold does. of course, hold is more powerful, but my basic point is that having an option for effective crowd control which does not require concentration (even if it is less effective) is imo a worthwhile thing.
Compleatly forgot it wasn't concentration so that's a bonus to that spell, thanks for the reminder :)


It's not a bad idea to keep a non-concentration debuff around, but if you were to swap it, I'd strongly consider heat metal, phantasmal force, or silence.

Heat metal is essentially game over for a target wearing metal armor. Phantasmal force will shut down and slowly kill many, many types of enemies since it targets their int save. (generally, the lowest stat in the game) Silence is a no-save, just suck ability against full casters.

As for multiclassing, I'm always a fan of the warlock dip for slots that refresh every short rest and agonizing eldritch blasts + the hex spell. Tome pact can be used to grab the shocking grasp cantrip (for melee use), the guidance cantrip (for out-of-combat buffing of skill checks), and any other cantrip of your choice.

Overall though, you have great stats, your spell list is quite good, and your proposed feat list is excellent. (I'd pick up warcaster first, reaction based spellcasting is awesome)
I think blindness/deafness is a bit better at the moment but I'll think it over a bit more, heat metal definetly sounds amazing. Silence would definetly hinder caster but if I remember right you can't cast spells on what you can't see, but I could be wrong.

Multiclass wise warlock dose sound like it would be pretty effective, I've been looking and sorcerer seams pretty nice. Any idea what lvl I should do my dip?

And thanks for the advice on war caster, I think I'll take that for my 1st ASI then maybe spell sniper later for when my friends can't hit the ones who are running away...

And thanks to everyone who has helped so far <3

[xyianth]

Compleatly forgot it wasn't concentration so that's a bonus to that spell, thanks for the reminder :)


I think blindness/deafness is a bit better at the moment but I'll think it over a bit more, heat metal definetly sounds amazing. Silence would definetly hinder caster but if I remember right you can't cast spells on what you can't see, but I could be wrong.

You are not wrong, however most casters in 5e do take some measures to boost their con saves since that's the only way to pass concentration checks with any regularity.


Multiclass wise warlock dose sound like it would be pretty effective, I've been looking and sorcerer seams pretty nice. Any idea what lvl I should do my dip?

Honestly, I'd do the dip immediately from 7-9. This will vary significantly based on how long your campaign is going to run and your party makeup. In my experience, 3rd level spells and cantrips are the workhorses of casters. As you already have access to 3rd level spells, the improved cantrips and ritual casting would be a significant boost. On the other hand, you would delay access to 4th level and higher spells. If there are higher level spells that specifically interest you, or if your party relies on you as the primary caster, you may not want to delay higher level spells until you have access to 5th level spells.

[Ashrym]

The rolled scores look really nice so ability score increases are less important than normal. It's tempting to even out CON and DEX with an increase but that can wait, and I would go with inspiring leader or healer. My preference is the healer feat but either is good.

I would skip warlock for multiclassing given the sorcerer already, and a barbarian and monk won't be slouches for damage so it's not a real gain for the group. I would go with 1 rogue level instead. That one rogue level would be good for another skill and expertise in thieves' tools, and 2 skills instead of 1 if you take it as the first level class with 5 bard levels following. This reduces delay is spell advancement and bard abilities, and keeps the 5th ASI eventually. I would just take it as the 7th level because you already have plenty of skills so 1 more is minor but earlier access to magical secrets is nice. If you expect to level up soon to 7th level and really want to push a step further then rogue first followed by bard levels is the way to go.

If you don't want to go with rogue then 1 level of life cleric gets you better armor, more spell options, and increases your healing potential a lot. Lore bard 19 / life cleric 1 is a strong build.

You have Tasha's, blindness/deafness, hold person, and hypnotic pattern so you are getting carried away a bit. Hold is a great spell but it's very target type dependent (so is heat metal) but worth keeping until you trade it in when you gain access to hold monster. Hypnotic pattern is a high level slot for you so won't have the frequency yet and need to keep that spell. Blindness is a great spell because it affects more target types than Tasha's or hold person and doesn't use concentration so it's worth keeping. Tasha's is the one I would be looking at replacing. Bane can be a good spell but uses concentration that you will likely need for hold or hypnotic pattern, but might be worth considering. I would look at dissonant whispers as a tactical ability and if you want something a bit more tricky then disguise self or unseen servant. I would also skip fireball because it's likely available with the sorcerer for more damage. It can be a useful choice but instead a person would be looking at different to really stand out. Spirit guardians isn't ranged but it does cover a wider area and good damage in any fight that might last 2 rounds or more compared to fireball, and is also party friendly if you are looking for AoE damage. It does cost concentration but you are more likely to use hypnotic pattern than direct damage and just use combat damage anyway, or else not need the concentration slot. Revivify is a good a idea to bring dead party members back, and you might also consider glyph of warding. Invisibility is also a good choice, as is enhance ability; you don't need to take secrets from other lists and those spells let you take advantage of a strong skill based class. Keep aura of vitality for out of combat healing effectiveness.

Hope that helps.


EDIT (after some more thought):

This might work for you as a 6th level bard:

1st-level: healing word (better than cure wounds because you keep your action), Tasha's hideous laughter (giving up hold person and this uses a lower slot with more target types), dissonant whispers (tactical ability that sets up group opportunity attacks), thunderwave (aoe in case you do need the area damage, but also for the push effect to escape opportunity attacks).

2nd-level: blindness/deafness (this also grants advantage attacking so was stacking with faerie fire but doesn't cost concentration and is party friendly -- requires key target over small area use), lesser restoration, enhance ability (better skills is useful)

3rd-level: hypnotic pattern, dispel magic, aura of vitality (secrets), revivify (secrets)


I noticed you also had fear in the mix. If you want fear then replace hypnotic pattern. It looked like too much overlap and too many concentration spells that this will help with. You also have the option of replacing thunderwave with shatter for a ranged AoE while leveling and / or enhance ability with suggestion for some different options.

[SharkForce]

You are not wrong, however most casters in 5e do take some measures to boost their con saves since that's the only way to pass concentration checks with any regularity.

it's not about the saves, it's about being able to cast more than one spell at a time. with hold and blindness/deafness, he has a spell he can cast while concentrating on hold.

[xyianth]

it's not about the saves, it's about being able to cast more than one spell at a time. with hold and blindness/deafness, he has a spell he can cast while concentrating on hold.

... I already said it was not a bad idea to have a non-concentration based spell on his list. The statement about saves was in reference to his comparison against the silence spell, in which case a con save is completely worse than no-save. However, if it needs restating: yes blindness/deafness is a good debuff spell to have on hand.

That said, if I were to change out one of the spells he has listed, it would be hold person. While the effect is great in theory, the target restriction + the interaction it has with initiative order makes me dislike it. I'd rather have suggestion/heat metal/phantasmal force/silence which are easier to use.

[Essar]

Good one level dips:

Barbarian or Monk for Unarmored Defense, Sorc for similar but not stat dependent

Rogue for Expertise


Good two level dips (give up a feat/ability increase)

Rog 2 for bonus action shenanigans

Lock 2 for +Cha mod to EB

Fighter 2 for Surge

Druid 2 for wild shape

[Vaeldoom]

You are not wrong, however most casters in 5e do take some measures to boost their con saves since that's the only way to pass concentration checks with any regularity.



Honestly, I'd do the dip immediately from 7-9. This will vary significantly based on how long your campaign is going to run and your party makeup. In my experience, 3rd level spells and cantrips are the workhorses of casters. As you already have access to 3rd level spells, the improved cantrips and ritual casting would be a significant boost. On the other hand, you would delay access to 4th level and higher spells. If there are higher level spells that specifically interest you, or if your party relies on you as the primary caster, you may not want to delay higher level spells until you have access to 5th level spells.
I haven't really looked into later level spells yet so I'm not entirely worried about them right now, I believe this campaign I gonna run to around lvl 12 maybe longer. So I'll probably dip next lvl.

The rolled scores look really nice so ability score increases are less important than normal. It's tempting to even out CON and DEX with an increase but that can wait, and I would go with inspiring leader or healer. My preference is the healer feat but either is good.

I would skip warlock for multiclassing given the sorcerer already, and a barbarian and monk won't be slouches for damage so it's not a real gain for the group. I would go with 1 rogue level instead. That one rogue level would be good for another skill and expertise in thieves' tools, and 2 skills instead of 1 if you take it as the first level class with 5 bard levels following. This reduces delay is spell advancement and bard abilities, and keeps the 5th ASI eventually. I would just take it as the 7th level because you already have plenty of skills so 1 more is minor but earlier access to magical secrets is nice. If you expect to level up soon to 7th level and really want to push a step further then rogue first followed by bard levels is the way to go.

If you don't want to go with rogue then 1 level of life cleric gets you better armor, more spell options, and increases your healing potential a lot. Lore bard 19 / life cleric 1 is a strong build.

You have Tasha's, blindness/deafness, hold person, and hypnotic pattern so you are getting carried away a bit. Hold is a great spell but it's very target type dependent (so is heat metal) but worth keeping until you trade it in when you gain access to hold monster. Hypnotic pattern is a high level slot for you so won't have the frequency yet and need to keep that spell. Blindness is a great spell because it affects more target types than Tasha's or hold person and doesn't use concentration so it's worth keeping. Tasha's is the one I would be looking at replacing. Bane can be a good spell but uses concentration that you will likely need for hold or hypnotic pattern, but might be worth considering. I would look at dissonant whispers as a tactical ability and if you want something a bit more tricky then disguise self or unseen servant. I would also skip fireball because it's likely available with the sorcerer for more damage. It can be a useful choice but instead a person would be looking at different to really stand out. Spirit guardians isn't ranged but it does cover a wider area and good damage in any fight that might last 2 rounds or more compared to fireball, and is also party friendly if you are looking for AoE damage. It does cost concentration but you are more likely to use hypnotic pattern than direct damage and just use combat damage anyway, or else not need the concentration slot. Revivify is a good a idea to bring dead party members back, and you might also consider glyph of warding. Invisibility is also a good choice, as is enhance ability; you don't need to take secrets from other lists and those spells let you take advantage of a strong skill based class. Keep aura of vitality for out of combat healing effectiveness.

Hope that helps.


EDIT (after some more thought):

This might work for you as a 6th level bard:

1st-level: healing word (better than cure wounds because you keep your action), Tasha's hideous laughter (giving up hold person and this uses a lower slot with more target types), dissonant whispers (tactical ability that sets up group opportunity attacks), thunderwave (aoe in case you do need the area damage, but also for the push effect to escape opportunity attacks).

2nd-level: blindness/deafness (this also grants advantage attacking so was stacking with faerie fire but doesn't cost concentration and is party friendly -- requires key target over small area use), lesser restoration, enhance ability (better skills is useful)

3rd-level: hypnotic pattern, dispel magic, aura of vitality (secrets), revivify (secrets)


I noticed you also had fear in the mix. If you want fear then replace hypnotic pattern. It looked like too much overlap and too many concentration spells that this will help with. You also have the option of replacing thunderwave with shatter for a ranged AoE while leveling and / or enhance ability with suggestion for some different options.
I'll probably skip on the rogue mainly because the monk is built as Monk 3/Rogue 2/Tepest cleric 1 so he has proficiency in the tools. However I'm curious to how the life cleric 1 dip is so good. I'll look into what it gives and compare it to some other dips. Thanks for the advice ;)

Also that spell list looks rather nice. I'll probably use it, but maybe swap thunder wave.

Good one level dips:

Barbarian or Monk for Unarmored Defense, Sorc for similar but not stat dependent

Rogue for Expertise


Good two level dips (give up a feat/ability increase)

Rog 2 for bonus action shenanigans

Lock 2 for +Cha mod to EB

Fighter 2 for Surge

Druid 2 for wild shape
Not really looking for unarmored defense because I wana use armor with my lowish dex. Definetly think I want cleric or lock.


One thing to note is that another friend of ours has joined our group an has made a cleric. But from the looks of it he has no healing and is more focused on damage. If I remember right he took tempest cleric. His backstory is really odd as well. Apparently his character was adopted by asmodes and wants to have literally everyone worship him >.> so that should be interesting if not annoying.

Anyways I really appreciate the input everyone.

[Ashrym]

Life cleric is good because it opens up more spells available, better armor, more cantrips, and the bonus to healing spells applies to the bard spells. It's a solid dip.

[Vaeldoom]

Life cleric is good because it opens up more spells available, better armor, more cantrips, and the bonus to healing spells applies to the bard spells. It's a solid dip.
Well then with me being the main healer of the group life cleric looks pretty nice, question is are 3 levels worth it? Main reason I ask is because you only really need 17 levels of bard if you want to focus it for the 9th level spell. I'll look into cleric a bit more once I get the chance to see what 3 levels opens up for me

Edit: ok so 2 levels seams the most optimal, life cleric 2 would give me heavy armor, cleric Cantrips, preserve life ability and bless as a spell I know all the time. And do I really need a 5th ASI with these stats? :P

[xyianth]

The preserve life ability scales by cleric level. I don't know if a 10hp heal per short rest is worth a second level dip. You get bless and cure wounds always prepared, heavy armor, and the disciple of life ability with just a 1 level dip. This potentially frees you up to take a 2 level dip elsewhere and still get 17 bard levels. The only other thing to consider is that your last magical secrets occur at 18th level bard. The ability to pick any 2 spells in the game is quite potent. (hello wish spell, breaking any games lately?)

[Vaeldoom]

The preserve life ability scales by cleric level. I don't know if a 10hp heal per short rest is worth a second level dip. You get bless and cure wounds always prepared, heavy armor, and the disciple of life ability with just a 1 level dip. This potentially frees you up to take a 2 level dip elsewhere and still get 17 bard levels. The only other thing to consider is that your last magical secrets occur at 18th level bard. The ability to pick any 2 spells in the game is quite potent. (hello wish spell, breaking any games lately?)
Well 10hp could be the difference between life and death to a PC but by then I would probably have mass healing word or something so it might not be the best but still hand when you really need it, and for the lvl 18 magical secrets I'd probably pick up wish for sure because oh look I can cast anything of 8th lvl and lower (planar binding anyone???) and meteor swarm for the trump card when fighting an entire kingdom ( which seems to happen more often then not with my group v-v ) and if it comes down to it I'll take the extra feat or just bump something that is low to help make saves.

[charlesk]

Unless I'm mistaken, you don't get heavy armor proficiency from a cleric dip (nor indeed any other dip). Of course you can if you take it at first level, not sure if that counts as a "dip".

[xyianth]

Unless I'm mistaken, you don't get heavy armor proficiency from a cleric dip (nor indeed any other dip). Of course you can if you take it at first level, not sure if that counts as a "dip".

You are mistaken in this case. The heavy armor proficiency is a domain granted power, not a result of the multiclass itself.

[charlesk]

Ah, sorry. I considered that but was looking in the wrong place. :)

ETA: Though the wording in the domain description strikes me as ambiguous. It could be read as only providing that proficiency if you take the domain at first level. Since that's basically what it says.

[xyianth]

Ah, sorry. I considered that but was looking in the wrong place. :)

ETA: Though the wording in the domain description strikes me as ambiguous. It could be read as only providing that proficiency if you take the domain at first level. Since that's basically what it says.

Hmm, that is a fair point. I hadn't read it that way before, but I can see how one could. Might be a good thing to ask in the RAW thread. (if it hasn't already)

[Vaeldoom]

Ah, sorry. I considered that but was looking in the wrong place. :)

ETA: Though the wording in the domain description strikes me as ambiguous. It could be read as only providing that proficiency if you take the domain at first level. Since that's basically what it says.


Hmm, that is a fair point. I hadn't read it that way before, but I can see how one could. Might be a good thing to ask in the RAW thread. (if it hasn't already)

Not sure about RAW but my gm Rulled it as 1st leel of cleric and not just 1st level so I'd pick it up whenever I dip.