I think I'm losing my mind to skepticism - Can you help me?

[(Un)Inspired]

First off, I'm sorry for the incredibly melodramatic title.

I'm starting to feel like I can't operate on a day to day basis in a rational way. I'm beginning to suspect that every day I get up and go to work, go to class or see my girlfriend is the emotional equivalent to Michael Stocker's Ethical Schizophrenia.

I act like my job is important (at least as far as supporting myself goes). I behave as if getting my degree is important. I tell my girlfriend I love her. But I can't find a proof for any of these things.

I'm losing the ability to argue that the things I like are Good. Why The Good is important at all? I think that all I have left is my perception oft feelings but I can't conjure a good argument for why I should follow them. I know I'm being vague here; I think I can elaborate if I need to here.

I'm not sure if there would be any meaningful difference if I ended up getting my PhD and began to teach or if I quit and supported myself bartending. What is the really difference between having disposable income and working just to be able to support myself.

What about my girlfriend? I say I love her; I think that might be true but how can I reasonably confirm that? If I do, what is The Good of loving an individual , am I participating in it by loving her; and why is it important that I do it?

It's important to have beliefs, right? How can one (Me! I'm talking about me!) have justified true beliefs? I keep reading Kant's Metsphydics of Morals but it's not giving me an answer; the answer to certanty.

I feel like I'm being incredibly sophomoric just by having these thoughts but I don't know how to quell them.

[Alent]

I can really relate to your post, but from a different means and end. I personally have been struggling all my life with the importance of my wishes vs duty to the importance of others' wishes in the afterlife centric ethos I was raised to have, and have only recently come to fully appreciate how much that teaching screwed up my life.

A while back I stumbled into a blogger's personal highlights from "A guide to the good life: the ancient art of stoic joy", I only recently finally got around to cracking the cover on it, and one of it's initial points was to explore how the stoics defined "good things". I'm currently reading through the section on Negative Visualization, which puts an interesting spin on how to not to lose sight on the value of what you have by imagining you've lost those things and how that would affect you. Perhaps this may help you with your Kantian ethics induced dilemma? At the very least it gives you a few more measurements to consider for definitions of "Good things".

One of my favorite quotes from the book so far is a quote from Epicurus: "Vain is the word of a philosopher which does not heal any suffering of man. For just as there is no profit in medicine if it does not expel the diseases of the body, so there is no profit in philosophy, either, if it does not expel the suffering of the mind."

On that note: I haven't read Kant, but it seems from this side of the monitor that his work does not have the reasoning you seek. His work seems to be encouraging you to analyze your motives to the point that your motives deteriorate entirely. If you have to analyze your motive to the point which it becomes functionally lost to you- and for no gain in return- your process of analysis is too destructive to be useful to you. Seek a better measure of motive, preferably one that does not discard or devalue your feelings and emotions as a component of motive or goodness. (If you don't have your own feelings, emotions, and motivations, how are you any different from a philosophical zombie?)

I hope my layman's thinking on philosophy here isn't offensive- I mean to help, albeit clumsily. (I also have no idea what you mean by "Sophomoric Judt", so don't worry, you're not alone in whatever awkwardness it is you're experiencing.)

[Flickerdart]

Who needs Good or true beliefs? Nothing is important. Just do whatever. Break up with your girlfriend, quit your PhD, and become a mercenary captain in South America. See those things through, and then become a mercenary captain in South America anyway, but you'll have a cool nickname ("The Professor" or something) and a trusted lieutenant.

If you don't want to become a mercenary captain in South America (you weirdo) just pick another goal and work towards that. It doesn't need to be good or important. What matters is you decided that you want to pursue it, and that makes it worth to pursue.

[Forum Explorer]

Well I'm not sure this will help but here goes nothing...


It sounds like you're having trouble defining your own variable of value. You seem to be seeking some sort of objective standard and physical standard that you can use to justify your values to an outside world. None of the examples you posted are really moral issues, so this seems to be an issue entirely with your personal values of what you are doing.

Unfortunately for you that really doesn't exist. Objectively it doesn't really matter if you were working on a degree or at a bar, if you had a girlfriend, no girlfriend, or were seeing a dozen different women, and it doesn't matter if you are making an excess of money, or enough to survive comfortably.

Fortunately you don't need to justify yourself in such a way. A value only needs two things to be justified in today's society. 'It isn't self harming.' and 'It doesn't harm others'. That is something that you can look at objectively.

Once you've confirmed those traits, well then you look to your desires. Which of those values make you the happiest?

Are you happier with or without your girlfriend?

Are you happier with or without disposable income?

Are you happier with a PhD or working at a bar?

From my perspective, none of these things have an inherent moral value, so it's entirely a question of which option makes you happiest in the short and long term.

[bluewind95]

I think, therefore I am.*

That's all the proof you should need. If you think you love her, you do. If you treat your job as important, you likely think it is, then it is. If you are pursuing these things, and they do not harm you (or others) but instead improve your life (or that of others) in some way, then they are Good. But know that these things only apply to YOU. What's good for YOU may not be good for others. Your job and your girlfriend mean nothing to me. Neither do your job and degree. But to you, they mean something, they give you something, you give them priority, then that's the proof they exist and are important.

* I'm aware this is not really the context for this quote, but it's fitting for mine.

[Eldariel]

I think Descartes's ideas are actually relevant here, so I'm glad you brought it up, bluewind. The existence of a thinking entity and the "I seem to sense a hand"/etc. are about the extent of the world you can confirm deductively. Descartes claimed to be able to deductively prove the truth of all reality but unfortunately one of his assumptions is that "God exists and is no deceiver", which is obviously a fairly easy statement to contest, at least in the context of using it as a basis for deductively proving reality. Either way, since then truth theorists have largely come to the conclusion that an infallibilistic proof of the truth of existence will elude us forever, but based on scientific method, we can certainly come to the conclusion that it's okay for our theories to be fallibilistic. After all, induction in and of itself doesn't guarantee truth but rather just tells us that one view is better supported and thus more likely than the competing views. So, even though it's possible that how you perceive reality or your feelings or whatever do not correspond to an actual reality, based on the evidence we do have it's a far better explanation that it all does indeed reflect reality than that it is not real. You might be interested in some recent work on the truth theory if this is a problem that interests you.

Whether there's an universal "good" of any kind is of course a long-standing argument in philosophy with great points made on both sides; perhaps it might serve you to take a cursory look at ethical philosophy. Mayhap some ideas might resonate with you and help you define yourself in a way you're comfortable with. Either way, it's probably okay to just think of what you consider important, to which values you subscribe and simply judge your actions through those lens. I suggest it's probably more important to establish a baseline you yourself can subscribe to than to seek objective ethics (it's quite hard to verify whether you've found them anyways). Unless of course you consider the latter an interesting academic pursuit; that's certainly a philosophical dilemma one could easily spend decades thinking about. Either way, whether the good of self, the good of community, the good of humanity, the good of universe or whatever is your guiding principle, I'd say the relevant part is figuring out if there's something you'd want to accomplish with your life and define things from that angle.

I don't particularly subscribe to hedonism: I think happiness is ultimately a secondary matter that will take care of itself when you set yourself up to accomplish something and do it; that is, if you create goals and strive for them, the very act of doing that will incidentally also lead to satisfaction and happiness. My own criteria for the cognitive selection of my long-term goals and as such, the motivator for my actions, is to reflect upon what I'd want the world to look like and then pick actions that I find the most likely to drive it in that direction. Another interesting criterion one could consider when picking the direction is the post-mortem view; think of what you'd want to leave behind after you're inevitably ground to dust and strive towards building a personal world to match that. As such, well, your Ph.D. of course opens up various options. More important than the money you make is probably what the work you're doing accomplishes. As such, which routes would the Ph.D. open up? Are you interested in any of them on a lifetime scale? Job can be a great channel for accomplishing goals in addition to providing you with sustenance. Goals are something only you can set for yourself and inevitably you need something to base them on. As such, it might be worthwhile to meditate on the foundations first and if you have no clear path you wish to tread, simply pick one.

[Teddy]

Hmm, say, have you been dealing with a lot of stress, poor sleep, involontary isolation or any depression symptoms as of late? I'm not saying that that's necessarily it, but I know that when I'm down, my brain may go into a mode where it's trying to challenge everything positive in my life, and the simplest first targets are all those things I take for factual but which I can't prove, such as someone's friendship or happiness in my own life choices. Perhaps it could be the same for you?

If this sounds like it might be the case, I suggest you seek a psychologist to talk about it, and more importantly, I urge you to not make any important life choices while under the influence of it. One should never start tearing up their own life unless it's done on a good day when one has a clear view of how their life actually looks (or if it's an emergency and the cause is obvious even after filtering through an impartial mind), otherwise you just risk burning the bridgest you were meant to walk across...

[veti]

Disclaimer: I am not a psychiatrist and this is not medical advice.

What you describe sounds to me like a mild form of depression, probably triggered in this case by stress. Kant is unlikely to help while you're in so much confusion. Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil might be more in tune with the way your mind is currently running.

First, there are a few simple steps - which are a good idea in their own right - that can make an unbelievable amount of difference at a time like this. It's not a permanent regime, but every time I've kicked myself into adopting it for a few weeks, it's made an astonishing difference to my frame of mind:

Eat healthily - that means, plenty of fresh fruit and veg, not too much red meat or carbs. Limit alcohol to once or twice a week, and never to excess. Cut back on caffeine, and carbonated drinks are best avoided completely.
Exercise. You don't need to start running marathons - just do enough to get yourself out of breath, and your blood flowing faster, for a few minutes every day. More effective if done outdoors in the fresh air.
Sleep well. Set a regular bedtime, I suggest no later than 10:30, and stick to it at least five nights a week. If you have trouble getting to sleep, you're not getting enough exercise.


There is a possibility - and without knowing anything about you, I can't really begin to guess whether it's 1% or 75% - that you're afraid of growing up. That what you're feeling is the Awful Weight of Responsibility, the Fear of Commitment. The bad news is, there's no running away from that: if you try, it will hunt you down and punish you in ways you can't even imagine. The good news is, you don't have to shoulder it all at once: if you haven't finished your degree, that suggests you've still got a decade or so, if you want to use it, to ease yourself into adulthood in stages. "Supporting yourself and living independently", "maintaining your own home", "living with girlfriend", "accepting responsibility in work", "getting involved with the community" - these are all separate steps, take them at your own pace and don't let anyone rush you.

"Operating on a day to day basis in a rational way" isn't strictly necessary. Many people go through a period when nothing in their lives seems to make sense. Depending on what sort of person you are, you can chuck it all in and try to change your life, or you can keep working through it in the faith that you'll eventually come out the other end. Either will probably work, but which will work better for you - only you can judge.

"Loving your girlfriend" - again, don't sweat about the terminology. What difference does it make, at this stage, whether you love her or not? It might be useful to explain to her exactly how you feel - heck, show her this post - and see how she reacts. As for "justified true beliefs" - yeah, I haven't really believed in those for about quarter of a century now, and I haven't missed them. Nietzsche can tell you how to do without.

"The difference between having disposable income and working just to support yourself", however, is big. At the moment, you're young. You have opportunities, possibilities, choices - right at this moment, far more than you can handle. As you grow older, you'll find those diminishing - you may not notice it at first, but one day you'll look around and realise that, back at this stage of your life, people were bending over backwards to give you an ocean of options - but the older you get, the less help there is. But if you can make a decent income (and refrain from spending it all), you will still have opportunities to help yourself to change from time to time when you want to.

[SiuiS]

Why do you value skepticism? I mean, really. It's obviously ruining your life because you use it. Or use it so much. Skepticism fails it's own test doesn't it? It's just as unobjective and unhelpful as all the ther things?

Things have value when you assign them value. Enjoy things for the enjoyment. It needs nothing more.

Your philosophy will tell you that validation is internal. It comes from you when cognitive dissonance stops. It will not come from any external source – any other philosophy or philosopher having a betterer stance or concept.

None of philosophy matters to you. Everything that's been said for the last five thousand years of human existence is not the foundation of your life or it's meaning. They are tools. Pick the ones that work for you and use them. When they don't work, put them back on the bench. You do not need a unified theory of philosophical okay-ness.

[Anarion]

So, (Un)inspired, are you reading all this stuff? Pop in and say hi.

Anyway, you're looking for a rational system, but it's impossible. Even if you're a skeptic, you can't prove that stopping all the things you care about is good either. Why would doing nothing be the best course of action when you're uncertain? Can you prove it is?

Deep philosophical endeavor reveals that, essentially, human beings aren't rational. Indeed, no system can be entirely rational. Rather, you choose your values and pursue them. You choose to seek happiness, pleasure, growth, or whatever you want. You don't need to be an altruist, you just pick things that make you feel good. Somehow, it all ends up working out in one way or another.

[Crow]

First off, I'm sorry for the incredibly melodramatic title.

I'm starting to feel like I can't operate on a day to day basis in a rational way. I'm beginning to suspect that every day I get up and go to work, go to class or see my girlfriend is the emotional equivalent to Michael Stocker's Ethical Schizophrenia.

I act like my job is important (at least as far as supporting myself goes). I behave as if getting my degree is important. I tell my girlfriend I love her. But I can't find a proof for any of these things.

I'm losing the ability to argue that the things I like are Good. Why The Good is important at all? I think that all I have left is my perception oft feelings but I can't conjure a good argument for why I should follow them. I know I'm being vague here; I think I can elaborate if I need to here.

I'm not sure if there would be any meaningful difference if I ended up getting my PhD and began to teach or if I quit and supported myself bartending. What is the really difference between having disposable income and working just to be able to support myself.

What about my girlfriend? I say I love her; I think that might be true but how can I reasonably confirm that? If I do, what is The Good of loving an individual , am I participating in it by loving her; and why is it important that I do it?

It's important to have beliefs, right? How can one (Me! I'm talking about me!) have justified true beliefs? I keep reading Kant's Metsphydics of Morals but it's not giving me an answer; the answer to certanty.

I feel like I'm being incredibly sophomoric just by having these thoughts but I don't know how to quell them.

I got into this mindset for a while when I realized that we (at least in America) are all basically privileged slaves. I won't get into it here, but the key to getting out of it is to find the things you enjoy, and try not to worry about "why" you enjoy them. It doesn't matter anyways. Maybe you don't "love" your girlfriend, but you enjoy the extracurriculars...so be it. Maybe the things you like aren't good at all. Do you like them anyways? So be it.

Basically don't bother to justify yourself to anyone.

[SiuiS]

Rational is one of my favorite words, because people think it means the same thing as logical and stop there.

The definition of rational is "(of a person) able to think clearly, logically and reasonably". Logic is simply one part of rational thought. Reasonable thought is also part of it. As is clarity.

It is logical to break everything down to the point where it's all protons and neutrons with electron shells and discrete objects don't exist. But it's not reasonable.reasonable thinking is "this does not serve me, how can I get away from it?".


I got into this mindset for a while when I realized that we (at least in America) are all basically privileged slaves. I won't get into it here, but the key to getting out of it is to find the things you enjoy, and try not to worry about "why" you enjoy them. It doesn't matter anyways. Maybe you don't "love" your girlfriend, but you enjoy the extracurriculars...so be it. Maybe the things you like aren't good at all. Do you like them anyways? So be it.

Basically don't bother to justify yourself to anyone.

I'm interested. Email me? If it's forum inappropriate a PM is still under board rule.

[Icewraith]

I think this is a case of overthinking. If you have a go at any facet of existence, you'll eventually go deep enough you hit your underlying assumptions without which you cannot operate as the being you are now.

If your actions towards your girlfriend are those of a loving person, and you enjoy those actions, and she seems to be happy, you probably love her. However if you think about those things it's very easy to convince yourself you have no emotions and everything is a facade.

Unless you have concrete, signuficant, real examples of events that call your underlying assumptions into question, don't worry about it.

This is like digging up your yard to make sure the utility companies laid all the pipes to your house correctly. Unless there's raw sewage seeping into your yard, you're much more likely to damage your own pipes While digging than find anything wrong.

[veti]

If your actions towards your girlfriend are those of a loving person, and you enjoy those actions, and she seems to be happy, you probably love her. However if you think about those things it's very easy to convince yourself you have no emotions and everything is a facade.

"Love" is a notoriously hard thing to identify at the best of times. "The actions of a loving person" can be very hard to distinguish reliably from "the actions of an insecure, clingy person" or "the actions of a horny, possessive person", especially to those directly involved, even if they don't have any other major distractions in their lives.

So yeah... don't sweat about that definition. Seriously. Whether you do or don't love the GF is something you don't even need to know. Love isn't a mystical tie that will permanently damage the very fabric of the universe if it's broken - it happens all the time, people survive and move on. Conversely, even if you don't love her - so long as the two of you make each other at least somewhat happier, right now? - that's not nothing, and may be worth sustaining at least for a while.

[Kiren]

To me, I think the issue is your trying to hard to find a rational basis in a completely irrational existence. You can argue with yourself the point of everything, or the lack of a point to everything; but really that's a perpetually bothersome way to go about your life. You can't confirm every fact in life; but you seem to me to definitely be trying to. Your trying to logically assess your feelings for your girlfriend and job; your problem is that feelings aren't logical. There is no good or evil to loving someone, there is no express point it it; it's an illogical, arguably beautiful and unquantifiable thing. You are trying to justify beliefs that have evaded justification for every member of the human race.

My completely unprofessional opinion: You shouldn't justify all your beliefs and feelings; you can't prove such things to yourself, they just happen. If you need to find the importance in loving another person, then either your doing it all wrong or their is something lacking in your perceived bond with that person. Perhaps it just isn't meant to be.

TLDR: Chill out and allow things to remain illogical in your life! Not everything needs a factual basis!

[Bulldog Psion]

"Trust your feelings, Luke."

Honestly, I'm a dedicated rationalist; I believe in nothing "supernatural," I don't believe in "luck" good or bad, I despise most conspiracy theories as irrational spittle in the face of human agency and objective evidence, etc. etc. And you know what that has led me to?

Recognizing that though the universe operates according to laws of causality and mathematics that are essentially unbreakable, it is also a poem. An epic saga, filled with beauty and horror, majesty and mystery, hope and tragedy. And the ultimate mystery is sapience -- an equation that is aware of itself, which is caught in the webs of causality and yet understands that they exist, seeks to master them, and partially succeeds.

Sometimes the answer to a question is that from our perspective it is unanswerable. What is the attraction to another person? It is hidden somewhere in a blend of intellectual appreciation for their unique sentience, the instinctual hormonal forces of the immemorial mammal seeking for a mate, our sapient longing for a comrade on the high road of adventure in this world, perhaps a thirst for physical pleasure, a melange of high thoughts and basic instincts blending together in a hidden many-textured mist of motivation swirling deep and unknowable in the synapses of our brain.

It is useless trying to analyze such a thing. There are subtleties within subtleties at work, invisible to our mortal perceptions. And on top of that, it shifts and changes constantly as different external and internal stimuli alter.

One of my favorite quotes from the "Pirates" movies is a Jack Sparrow line, because I find a good deal of truth in it:

"The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

So, can you be happy with your current girlfriend? If you can, then stay with her. If you can't, then gracefully sever the tie and move on to someone you can be happy with.

If you're happy with her, it doesn't matter why you're happy with her, because that is essentially unknowable. You're trying to analyze something that is not subject to analysis, that exists deep within psychological labyrinths, the convolutions of proteins, and so on. And even if you could, it wouldn't matter, because even if you knew the precise cause of your feelings, the cause does not change the effect. There is no "answer" waiting there to be found. You already have your answer, you just need to accept it.

So -- can you be happy with her, or can you not? Answer that question honestly, not with the answer you think you should have but with the one that feels right, and you will know.

[(Un)Inspired]

Thank you, everyone for you responses. I appreciate the advice you've all offered.

There's not room for me to quote each of you here but a lot of the advice has come in the vein of, "forget trying to find true meaning and instead try to live naturally and enjoy life." It seems the strongest argument made is that I should find what makes me happy and pursue it.

If being with my girlfriend makes me feel good I should stay with her, if my job and/or my work is fulling then I should stick with them.

What I don't understand is why I should pursue the things that i desire? Why should I chase the dragon of happiness? I do seem to crave certain things but I don't understand why I should try to be happy or lead a fulfilling life. Perhaps it is more pleasurable? Why should I seek out pleasure?

[Anarion]

Thank you, everyone for you responses. I appreciate the advice you've all offered.

There's not room for me to quote each of you here but a lot of the advice has come in the vein of, "forget trying to find true meaning and instead try to live naturally and enjoy life." It seems the strongest argument made is that I should find what makes me happy and pursue it.

If being with my girlfriend makes me feel good I should stay with her, if my job and/or my work is fulling then I should stick with them.

What I don't understand is why I should pursue the things that i desire? Why should I chase the dragon of happiness? I do seem to crave certain things but I don't understand why I should try to be happy or lead a fulfilling life. Perhaps it is more pleasurable? Why should I seek out pleasure?

No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

[bluewind95]

I have a question for you, (Un)Inspired. Why not? You say you don't understand why you should pursue happiness. Well, why shouldn't you?

[(Un)Inspired]

I have a question for you, (Un)Inspired. Why not? You say you don't understand why you should pursue happiness. Well, why shouldn't you?

I don't know. I can't think of a reason to? That doesn't sound like a very solid answer though. I don't know how? Eudaemonia is a hard to achieve goal and I'm not sure I actually have the tools to acquire it.

These are too separate issues. First, I don't know why I should pursue happiness, I don't want to begging seeking it till I have a reason to. Second, if I determine that happiness is something that I want, I'm not sure it's something I can have.

[Anarion]

I don't know. I can't think of a reason to? That doesn't sound like a very solid answer though. I don't know how? Eudaemonia is a hard to achieve goal and I'm not sure I actually have the tools to acquire it.

These are too separate issues. First, I don't know why I should pursue happiness, I don't want to begging seeking it till I have a reason to. Second, if I determine that happiness is something that I want, I'm not sure it's something I can have.

This is circular. You're literally asking the same question as your first post, only you switched from Good to Happiness. Which doesn't help because Happiness contributes to the Good, or perhaps makes you feel good.

My advice, though I'm going to phrase it as a command, is this: stop waiting for surety. Act, even though you may be wrong. Even though it may be worthless. Sitting and questioning, alone or on the Internet, is the wrong course of action. Instead, go out and do things. Be with you girlfriend, do your work, see people you know in person.

[Eldariel]

What I don't understand is why I should pursue the things that i desire? Why should I chase the dragon of happiness? I do seem to crave certain things but I don't understand why I should try to be happy or lead a fulfilling life. Perhaps it is more pleasurable? Why should I seek out pleasure?

In my opinion, happiness is completely irrelevant as a goal. It will become an inevitable byproduct of a fulfilling life anyways. As for why to seek a fulfilling life as opposed to less fulfilling life? Well, it's of course a question you have to answer for yourself but if it is of any help, have my take: I find that a non-fulfilling life is less likely to accomplish something than a fulfilling life. That is to say, a fulfilling life can make a difference, which inevitably creates a positive butterfly effect for people around you and the communities you're a part of (generally, a person living a positive life is more likely to positively affect the lives of those around them too; the whole "have to have something to be able to give it"-deal).

We don't actually need to know whether e.g. life has a meaning to compare these choices. Whether you decide to pursue embetterment of mankind, understanding of (an aspect of) reality, creation of happiness or whatever, the probable result of a fulfilling life is higher than a less fulfilling life. Thus, if there's a chance that life has a meaning, whether artificial or some universal constant (an option that's impossible to refute on any factual basis), then a fulfilling life in that eventuality is more likely to lead towards that meaning; ergo in that eventuality it's the preferable choice. The other eventuality of a meaningless life gives us no real tools to measure the outcome by so in that eventuality, both the options are even. Thus we have a matrix with 4 possible outcomes ("life is meaningless and I live a fulfilling life", "life is meaningless and I live a less fulfilling life", "life is meaningful and I live a fulfilling life" or "life is meaningful and I live a fulfilling life") where you have a 50% chance of breaking even and 50% chance of coming out ahead in a fulfilling life compared to a less fulfilling life. Thus, it's trivially the correct choice since the alternative offers nothing over it; it's like playing a game where you either win big or lose nothing, the opportunity cost of playing is zero.

[Flickerdart]

What I don't understand is why I should pursue the things that i desire? Why should I chase the dragon of happiness? I do seem to crave certain things but I don't understand why I should try to be happy or lead a fulfilling life. Perhaps it is more pleasurable? Why should I seek out pleasure?
To increase your score, of course.

[Forum Explorer]

Thank you, everyone for you responses. I appreciate the advice you've all offered.

There's not room for me to quote each of you here but a lot of the advice has come in the vein of, "forget trying to find true meaning and instead try to live naturally and enjoy life." It seems the strongest argument made is that I should find what makes me happy and pursue it.

If being with my girlfriend makes me feel good I should stay with her, if my job and/or my work is fulling then I should stick with them.

What I don't understand is why I should pursue the things that i desire? Why should I chase the dragon of happiness? I do seem to crave certain things but I don't understand why I should try to be happy or lead a fulfilling life. Perhaps it is more pleasurable? Why should I seek out pleasure?

A few reasons,

1. Doing something you desire to do is easy. If you don't have any desires or have the inability to feel enjoyment from fulfilling them, well in that case you might be suffering from depression. Then you should ask for help from your close friends and family.

2. Sitting around doing nothing is basically a null existence. Doing something, anything, is almost always superior to that if you what you do is 'justified'. It's better for you from a moral, physical, and mental standpoint.

3. It leads to a better and happier you in the long run. Actually doing and accomplishing things gives you perspective, it reconnects you to everything, and generally provides you with something tangible or at the least a memory for you to cherish and remember. To mirror Anarion, go out and do something, That is the best way to find the answer you're looking for.

4. Why not have more? If you have the choice between something and nothing, what appeal does nothing have? You aren't helping anyone by choosing nothing, nor hurting something by choosing something. So again, why not?


On a different note, happiness and desire is defined as something that you want (or need). It's not a matter of determining if you want it, but how to achieve it. (Which is a much different question with what you are asking). If you literally don't want to be happy, again you might be depressed and should ask the people in your life for help.

[bluewind95]

I don't know. I can't think of a reason to? That doesn't sound like a very solid answer though. I don't know how? Eudaemonia is a hard to achieve goal and I'm not sure I actually have the tools to acquire it.

These are too separate issues. First, I don't know why I should pursue happiness, I don't want to begging seeking it till I have a reason to. Second, if I determine that happiness is something that I want, I'm not sure it's something I can have.

Well... if you'd like me to say something nice and warm and fuzzy, I'm going to disappoint you here. Those questioning skills that are leading to your confusion? Apply them here. The answer is actually brutally efficient.

A happy person functions better than an unhappy person. Simple as that. When you're unhappy, your brain requires to put in more effort to function. It will slow you down. There's a reason things like depression are treated as maladies. They hurt you and a hurt body and mind are less efficient.

If we keep going, you'd be wondering why you should be more efficient? Because otherwise, it's wasteful. Your question basically amounts to "Why should I work to be in a state where my mind and body work better, instead of working to be in a state where my mind and body have their potential wasted?" I daresay the answer should be simple enough.

Can you HAVE happiness? As Eldariel said, happiness is not the goal. You won't suddenly "get" happiness. But if you work towards having things that make your life efficient, fulfilling and better, you will have more happiness. Happiness is more a metric of how well things are working out for you. It's your mind's way of telling you "yeah, keep this up" vs "no, things are not going well. Something needs to be fixed". Why should there ever be a reason to not work towards your mind's "All okay!" signals? Why would you even choose not to go that way, even if you find no logical reason to? Self-sabotage is far more illogical than self-fulfillment even if you want to overthink things.

That said, if you just don't have the motivation and things really feel wrong for you, I would second/third/fourth/etc the notion of getting yourself checked for depression. That stuff can do some really twisted things to the way you think.

[SiuiS]

What I don't understand is why I should pursue the things that i desire? Why should I chase the dragon of happiness? I do seem to crave certain things but I don't understand why I should try to be happy or lead a fulfilling life. Perhaps it is more pleasurable? Why should I seek out pleasure?

Because this choice is part d having a physical body composed of matter that moves forward along the dimensional axis of time.

You Do Not Have A choice.

You cannot abstain from doing. You exist. By existing you do. The only choice is what you do. All other things being equal, doing + gratification is better than doing.

You suffer. Do you want to suffer? Do you wish to continue feeling bad? Would you prefer to have this feeling bad cease – STOP! IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY YOU WOULS PREFER, MERELY THAT YOU DO! This desire will arise naturally. It does my need justification. It is a component of being a living animal. Until you have a rational reason to ignore it, do not.

You are starting from the irrational basis of "nonexistence is the starting point". It is not. You exist. The natural movements of biology may need to be questioned, but it is foolish to ignore them until they prove themselves. That is the opposite of what should happen.


No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

Ah, well spake. This resonates with me.

[Knaight]

I don't know. I can't think of a reason to? That doesn't sound like a very solid answer though. I don't know how? Eudaemonia is a hard to achieve goal and I'm not sure I actually have the tools to acquire it.

You're treating one of these options as a default that needs evidence to shift from, and the other one as something that needs evidence to shift to. You've basically declared not trying to be happy the null hypothesis for how to live your life - that's not a particularly rigorous claim there.

[SiuiS]

You're treating one of these options as a default that needs evidence to shift from, and the other one as something that needs evidence to shift to. You've basically declared not trying to be happy the null hypothesis for how to live your life - that's not a particularly rigorous claim there.

Yeah, that! Really need to work on my vocabulary for this stuff...

[veti]

First, I don't know why I should pursue happiness, I don't want to begging seeking it till I have a reason to. Second, if I determine that happiness is something that I want, I'm not sure it's something I can have.

Anytime you use the word "should", you are framing a question (or conclusion) that cannot be answered or described by pure reason. To complete it, you need to introduce a value judgment of some sort - a choice that, ultimately, only you can make. (This is called the 'is/ought problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem)'.)

There is no objective answer to the question "what should I do?", with no further qualifiers. "What should I do in order to graduate from college?" - that's answerable, because an objective is given. But "Should I graduate from college?" - that's only answerable if you introduce some other objective that might or might not be served by it. And that objective can only come from you.

The best other people can do is to offer you some insight into the likely consequences of making each choice. And then sit back and wait for you to make it.

[(Un)Inspired]

Thank you for the further replies guys. This gives me a lot to think about.

[Teddy]

I don't know. I can't think of a reason to? That doesn't sound like a very solid answer though. I don't know how? Eudaemonia is a hard to achieve goal and I'm not sure I actually have the tools to acquire it.

These are too separate issues. First, I don't know why I should pursue happiness, I don't want to begging seeking it till I have a reason to. Second, if I determine that happiness is something that I want, I'm not sure it's something I can have.

Okay, once again jumping in with the meta perspective here, but this is starting to sound really depressoidal* in nature. I gather from your postulated first issue that you're having a hard time imagining what happiness feels like now, right? Because what you say fits quite well with how in a depression one's brain may start to frame happiness as an illusion which you finally can see right through, thus creating feelings of pointlessness and a perceived impossibilty to achieve it.

My suggested course of action is still the same but with added emphasis: Don't try to solve these problems through dwelling and don't try to make sense of your questions by reinventing the world. If you can find an obvious cause for why you're having these questions, try to deal with it, but otherwise, seek a professional.

If you want my philosophical answer to why happiness should be pursued, though, then I answer that's because the alternative will always be destructive.

*Yes, I'm pretty sure I just invented this word.

[Icewraith]

Okay, once again jumping in with the meta perspective here, but this is starting to sound really depressoidal* in nature. I gather from your postulated first issue that you're having a hard time imagining what happiness feels like now, right? Because what you say fits quite well with how in a depression one's brain may start to frame happiness as an illusion which you finally can see right through, thus creating feelings of pointlessness and a perceived impossibilty to achieve it.

My suggested course of action is still the same but with added emphasis: Don't try to solve these problems through dwelling and don't try to make sense of your questions by reinventing the world. If you can find an obvious cause for why you're having these questions, try to deal with it, but otherwise, seek a professional.

If you want my philosophical answer to why happiness should be pursued, though, then I answer that's because the alternative will always be destructive.

*Yes, I'm pretty sure I just invented this word.

I agree, some of this sounds like stuff I was thinking before I got my depression treated. It's the internet, so I can never be certain, but it's definitely worth checking into.