How is power attack useful?

[MorgromTheOrc]

Whenever anyone talks about a feat chain they don't like that includes power attack they always include, "Since you're taking power attack anyways." But I haven't used power attack since my very first game of DND I've only taken it twice and one of those times was to get cleave, I never actually used power attack. Maybe it's because I prefer builds that sacrifice BaB for damage output but I can't see how you can hit anything using power attack to the extent that it's useful.

[Malroth]

high level builds can be sporting a rediculious to hit modifier
a lv 20 default fighter with a +6 str item and a +5 str tome, a +5 weapon, a +2 flanking bonus, a +1 haste bonus and a +5 morale bonus is hitting a Balor on a roll of 2 even on his third iterative attack, without power attack that extra accuracy is wasted, but with power attack that extra +10 accuracy could be converted to an extra 30 damage per strike x 4 strikes.

[Deophaun]

Maybe it's because I prefer builds that sacrifice BaB for damage output but I can't see how you can hit anything using power attack to the extent that it's useful.
Shock Trooper. Now you can full PA and hit anything you want.

[DeltaEmil]

The most (in)famous Power Attack feat chain is the one leading to the tactical feat Shocktrooper, from Complete Warrior, which allows you to shift part (or all) of the penalty to your attack roll from Power Attack to your AC when you charge. Combined with other things that massively improve on Power Attack's increased damage (like the Leap Attack feat from Complete Adventurer, the valorous weapon enchantment from Unapproachable East, being able to make a full attack on a charge as a result from having the pounce special attack, and so on), you can still hit reliably, while pulverizing the opponent in a shower of blood and gore.

But even without Shocktrooper, you can still take a reasonable amount of penalty to your attack roll, and deal a lot more damage with it while wielding the weapon two-handed. Taking a -2 penalty for a +4 bonus damage increase is always nice and safe, as is a -5 penalty for a +10 bonus on damage rolls. But it's a lot more luck-based in that case.

Shocktrooper is "don't think, just charge and kill, and hope there aren't invisible enemies trying to avenge their companion's death and tear you apart with your negative AC".

[Necroticplague]

Whenever anyone talks about a feat chain they don't like that includes power attack they always include, "Since you're taking power attack anyways." But I haven't used power attack since my very first game of DND I've only taken it twice and one of those times was to get cleave, I never actually used power attack. Maybe it's because I prefer builds that sacrifice BaB for damage output but I can't see how you can hit anything using power attack to the extent that it's useful.

1.There's a feat that lets you suck up the penalty to-hit with your AC instead (and as a general rule, your defenses matter not when your enemies say around you as cooling piles of meat).
2.Its easily possible to get to-hit high enough that BaB isn't necessary. Magic weapons, STR increases, magic STR increases, things specifically giving +hit,flanking, attacking flat-footed enemies, charging, buffs....
3.its possible to get the return on PA bonus high enough that you don't need to sacrifice a whole lot to get a bunch of benefit. Since its a passive mod to damage, it goes before any multipliers, so any multipliers can ratchet up the damage from even a small sacrifice.

[Zaq]

First, it's important to remember that attack bonuses scale automatically, but AC bonuses don't. In the early game, yeah, Power Attack is usually a losing trade, but by mid-to-high levels, you're going to have a pretty big margin of error in your attack bonus, especially if the opponent hasn't invested heavily in AC-boosting mojo. (If they have, then you don't PA against that opponent.)

Second, it's relatively easy to get better than 1:1 returns on PA, especially on a charger. A basic two-handed weapon gets you a 2:1 return. The feat Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer) doubles that to 4:1 on a charge, which is crazy. There are other ways of increasing that farther, but they do take more investment (Frenzied Berserker leaps to mind). There's also Shock Trooper, if you want to play a glass cannon—take the PA penalty to AC, not to hit, so you're still very accurate.

But mostly it's the fact that it's easier to boost attack rolls than it is to boost AC. For example, armor has a max DEX bonus, but weapons don't have a max STR bonus. BAB makes your attack rolls go up every level (or almost every level, for mid-BAB classes), but there's nothing that makes AC go up every level. Buff spells and effects tend to favor attack bonuses over AC bonuses, so if you have a Bard, a buffing Wizard/Cleric, or anyone similar in the party, your attack will go up even faster. If you can get a touch attack, very few things have high touch AC. Monsters tend to get bigger as you go up in levels, but bigger monsters have size penalties to AC.

No, it's not a good idea to trade away your whole attack bonus and rely solely on the dice. It's easy to PA yourself into uselessness. But even a modest penalty offers a bigger bonus to damage than you're likely to get through just about any other feat, except maybe Craven. And it's adjustable every round, so if you're fighting something without a lot of AC, you can dynamically give yourself a bigger PA total.

[TheIronGolem]

Maybe it's because I prefer builds that sacrifice BaB for damage output but I can't see how you can hit anything using power attack to the extent that it's useful.
I'm guessing you mostly play low-level games? At low levels, to-hit and AC tend to be (roughly) on par with each other, so losing some to-hit can noticeably impact your hit rate. But as you go higher, to-hit starts to outpace AC by quite a lot, so trading some of it for damage is more worthwhile.

There's also the fact that Power Attack doubles in efficiency when you're two-handing; the already-worthwhile trade becomes even better. And several people have mentioned Shock Trooper, which makes it better still because you go from trading to-hit (moderate value) for damage (high value) to trading AC (low value) for damage (high value).

It's like you made a friend who was willing to trade you quarters for your pennies, and he put you in contact with someone who would trade you dollar bills for your pennies.

[Doctor Awkward]

It's one of the most solid feats in that it gives you a lot of return for minimal investment.

If you are a level 5 half-orc in a full BAB class with 20 strength, you are probably using a 2-handed weapon (like a greatsword or a guisarme).
Right off the bat using both hands on it gets you 1.5x strength modifier to damage instead of just strength modifier. So in the case of a greatsword that's 2d6 + 7 damage.

Let's say you're fighting a standard CR 3 Ogre from the Monster Manual. His AC is 16. Let's suppose you took Weapon Focus at level 1 because you need it for a prerequisite later and you have a masterwork greatsword. You are now swinging at a +12, which means you have an 80% chance of connecting for an average damage roll of 14, about half of the ogre's health, with a small percentage (probably less than 5%) of a critical hit that will kill the ogre in one shot.

But since you took Power Attack at level 3, you can sacrifice your BAB to get extra damage on your attack. And since you are using a 2-handed weapon, you get double your returns. So you can sacrifice all 5 of your BAB for an extra 10 points of damage to your attack.
You still have a 60% chance of hitting, and you are instead doing 24 points of damage on average, with a much higher chance of killing the ogre in a single hit. You don't even need a critical hit any more.

As another example, look at a CR 2 Owlbear Skeleton. 32 HP but 13 AC, and it's immune to critical hits.
Before Power Attack, you are hitting automatically, provided you don't roll a 1, but you have no hope of killing it before it can retaliate. After Power Attack, you still have an excellent shot of hitting it, and any ally of yours could finish it easily (a mage could kill it with Magic Missile).

And that's not counting any buffs provided by your allies (Bless, Inspire Courage, etc.) and debuffs put on the enemies (Fear effects, Doom, etc.).
And this is just core. Going outside core you have all the goodies like Leap Attack and Combat Brute for more bonus damage, and things like Shock Trooper and Wraithstrike to make the penalty disappear.

[Jormengand]

Because attack rolls are binary and damage rolls aren't. If you know you're going to hit by 6 and do 8 damage, it's worth hitting by 1 and doing 13 damage instead.

[MorgromTheOrc]

I see where the problem is now, I only really play low level games where BaB never goes much higher than 6 so when I focus a build on damage output sacrificing BaB for more attacks or something similar power attack puts my BaB into the negatives, but in a higher level game with better BaB I can afford to sacrifice a lot more. Though wouldn't I be outpaced by casters by then anyways?

[Pluto!]

Just to temper expectations some, Power Attack math isn't great on its own during full attacks because AC does do some scaling, and iterative attacks have hefty penalties.

But what makes it great are all the major attack bonus increases that are available and damage multipliers, which work very well with static damage bonuses. Shock Trooper, Wraithstrike, Ice Axe, Flame Blade, Leap Attack, Combat Brute, Optimized Inspire Courage, Law Devotion, Spirited Charge, etc.

And what makes it almost always a good choice of a feat, even without fully going down its rabbit hole, is that many of your attacks won't be full attacks. They'll be strikes, charges, channeled spells, attacks of opportunity or just straight standard action attacks. And when you aren't dealing with any attack rolls at -5 to -15 penalties, that fast-scaling attack bonus makes power attack all upside against slower-scaling ACs.

[Zaq]

I see where the problem is now, I only really play low level games where BaB never goes much higher than 6 so when I focus a build on damage output sacrificing BaB for more attacks or something similar power attack puts my BaB into the negatives, but in a higher level game with better BaB I can afford to sacrifice a lot more. Though wouldn't I be outpaced by casters by then anyways?

You might be outpaced by casters, but that doesn't mean that Power Attack isn't good at what it does. If you want to play a melee character, Power Attack is still one of your best tools, even if an optimized caster is more powerful than you are. And most casters will be happy to have a beatstick getting rid of the monsters they've incapacitated. Much less messy than making them do the damage themselves.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Just to temper expectations some, Power Attack math isn't great on its own during full attacks because AC does do some scaling, and iterative attacks have hefty penalties.

But what makes it great are all the major attack bonus increases that are available and damage multipliers, which work very well with static damage bonuses. Shock Trooper, Wraithstrike, Ice Axe, Flame Blade, Leap Attack, Combat Brute, Optimized Inspire Courage, Law Devotion, Spirited Charge, etc.

And what makes it almost always a good choice of a feat, even without fully going down its rabbit hole, is that many of your attacks won't be full attacks. They'll be strikes, charges, channeled spells, attacks of opportunity or just straight standard action attacks. And when you aren't dealing with any attack rolls at -5 to -15 penalties, that fast-scaling attack bonus makes power attack all upside against slower-scaling ACs.

I've also never really gotten to charge before, my group doesn't use a board or anything so most maneuvers like that are just up to our DM to decide how many feet are between people when you do it. And if your attack would kill his monster or NPC usually it happens to be a little too far.

[MorgromTheOrc]

You might be outpaced by casters, but that doesn't mean that Power Attack isn't good at what it does. If you want to play a melee character, Power Attack is still one of your best tools, even if an optimized caster is more powerful than you are. And most casters will be happy to have a beatstick getting rid of the monsters they've incapacitated. Much less messy than making them do the damage themselves.

Really in my experience casters do the vast majority of damage, my DM's wife does about 300 on average with a fireball? I usually just clean up the side guys and keep the rogue/ranger from dieing.

[Doctor Awkward]

I've also never really gotten to charge before, my group doesn't use a board or anything so most maneuvers like that are just up to our DM to decide how many feet are between people when you do it. And if your attack would kill his monster or NPC usually it happens to be a little too far.
I had a DM like that once. I brought an optimized volley archer to one of his games.

We started having a lot of encounters in the forest for some reason. With lots of trees, and rocks, and other stuff he thought would really inconvenience my Horizon Walker.

...We started using a play mat shortly after that game.
Not sure what changed his mind.
*whistles innocently*


Really in my experience casters do the vast majority of damage, my DM's wife does about 300 on average with a fireball? I usually just clean up the side guys and keep the rogue/ranger from dieing.

O.o
That's... not possible.
I mean, unless you are talking about the total damage from hitting multiple targets.

How much damage does she do against a single very large monster?

If the answer is still "More than the rogue" you are either playing Pathfinder, or a VERY low-op game.

[nedz]

Really in my experience casters do the vast majority of damage, my DM's wife does about 300 on average with a fireball? I usually just clean up the side guys and keep the rogue/ranger from dieing.

That's quite a red flag.

In most games fireball is capped at 10d6 and the enemies often have evasion and/or fire res and/or SR. Also enemies tend not to stand around in tight groups. It's one saving grace is that it's long range otherwise it's quite a poor spell.

I'm not sure what to think about your table but Fireball being effective is unusual these days. Now it was a classic spell back in the days of AD&D, especially 1E, but even then it just ablated the enemies HP so that the fighters could take them out sooner.

[MorgromTheOrc]

I had a DM like that once. I brought an optimized volley archer to one of his games.

We started having a lot of encounters in the forest for some reason. With lots of trees, and rocks, and other stuff he thought would really inconvenience my Horizon Walker.

...We started using a play mat shortly after that game.
Not sure what changed his mind.
*whistles innocently*



O.o
That's... not possible.
I mean, unless you are talking about the total damage from hitting multiple targets.

How much damage does she do against a single very large monster?

If the answer is still "More than the rogue" you are either playing Pathfinder, or a VERY low-op game.

Well I've played with 2 rogues, one was played beautifully and never didn't one hit kill any non boss NPCs, the other... was trying desperately to be a paladin. And the least damage I've seen her do to a single enemy above level 5 is about 200. But she does her own math and the DM doesn't check her spells known, or spells per day and lets her improve spells with spellcrafting how she wants and I'm not going to argue with her about it. She once did 500 damage with a fireball one hitting the dragon and all his minions then proceeded to get upset about how the SECOND dragon was still alive and she was underpowered as she flew over to her pet dragon and wolf to go one hit the Dragon Lich.

[Jormengand]

Well I've played with 2 rogues, one was played beautifully and never didn't one hit kill any non boss NPCs, the other... was trying desperately to be a paladin. And the least damage I've seen her do to a single enemy above level 5 is about 200. But she does her own math and the DM doesn't check her spells known, or spells per day and lets her improve spells with spellcrafting how she wants and I'm not going to argue with her about it. She once did 500 damage with a fireball one hitting the dragon and all his minions then proceeded to get upset about how the SECOND dragon was still alive and she was underpowered as she flew over to her pet dragon and wolf to go one hit the Dragon Lich.

This is the DM's wife we're talking about?

Yeah, you need to tell the DM she's doing literally ten times as much damage as she should be. If he ignores you, leave.

[kellbyb]

I see where the problem is now, I only really play low level games where BaB never goes much higher than 6 so when I focus a build on damage output sacrificing BaB for more attacks or something similar power attack puts my BaB into the negatives, but in a higher level game with better BaB I can afford to sacrifice a lot more. Though wouldn't I be outpaced by casters by then anyways?

Melee damage actually scales up better - you'll still be outpaced by casters but that's because they're throwing around increasingly powerful I-Win spells rather than dealing a lot of damage.

[eggynack]

I see where the problem is now, I only really play low level games where BaB never goes much higher than 6 so when I focus a build on damage output sacrificing BaB for more attacks or something similar power attack puts my BaB into the negatives, but in a higher level game with better BaB I can afford to sacrifice a lot more.
That's pretty true, yeah. Power attack still tends to have positive value at low levels, though as I recall, it tends to be less than weapon specialization at those levels. Not great, in other words. I'd advise poking around with the power attack calculator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) some. It gives the optimal amount to PA for in any given situation, the amount of damage that gives, and a lot of information peripheral to that. Should grant a better understanding of the kind of benefits the feat can grant, and it's quite helpful with modeling other combat math too.


Though wouldn't I be outpaced by casters by then anyways?
Against multiple targets, sure, but against one, a well built melee character designed around damage should be doing better than a moderately optimized caster. At high optimization, a caster can overcome melee through extreme metamagic use and action economy abuse, but that's really deep stuff.

[MorgromTheOrc]

This is the DM's wife we're talking about?

Yeah, you need to tell the DM she's doing literally ten times as much damage as she should be. If he ignores you, leave.

I've wanted to get a new group dozens of times before but the DM's also my brother and the group is the only one I know of that I can play with in my area. So I usually just kinda ignore her and try to be good at killing the side stuff. I would try to do some party leader stuff but even though we're adults now my brother and the other people in the group can never take me seriously. (He's my older brother and everyone in the group is at least slightly older than me)

[Doctor Awkward]

Well I've played with 2 rogues, one was played beautifully and never didn't one hit kill any non boss NPCs, the other... was trying desperately to be a paladin. And the least damage I've seen her do to a single enemy above level 5 is about 200. But she does her own math and the DM doesn't check her spells known, or spells per day and lets her improve spells with spellcrafting how she wants and I'm not going to argue with her about it. She once did 500 damage with a fireball one hitting the dragon and all his minions then proceeded to get upset about how the SECOND dragon was still alive and she was underpowered as she flew over to her pet dragon and wolf to go one hit the Dragon Lich.

That's just... wow.

There's so much wrong with that sentence I don't even know where to start: Was it a red dragon? The ones that are immune to fire? At the very least tell me it wasn't a red dragon...


Well this is pretty far off topic at this point, but so long as you are having fun at the table there isn't really a problem.

If you aren't, I'd start asking if you could play a wizard too. But definitely at least try to discuss these things before getting up to leave.

[endur]

And what makes it almost always a good choice of a feat, even without fully going down its rabbit hole, is that many of your attacks won't be full attacks. They'll be strikes, charges, channeled spells, attacks of opportunity or just straight standard action attacks. And when you aren't dealing with any attack rolls at -5 to -15 penalties, that fast-scaling attack bonus makes power attack all upside against slower-scaling ACs.

When you are only doing a single attack, PA is pretty good if you aren't fighting an high AC opponent.

Also, if you are attacking an object with hardness or a creature with lots of DR, PA might be a necessity.

[MorgromTheOrc]

That's just... wow.

There's so much wrong with that sentence I don't even know where to start: Was it a red dragon? The ones that are immune to fire? At the very least tell me it wasn't a red dragon...


Well this is pretty far off topic at this point, but so long as you are having fun at the table there isn't really a problem.

If you aren't, I'd start asking if you could play a wizard too. But definitely at least try to discuss these things before getting up to leave.

He hadn't sad what kind it was, I think it WAS going to be red before she said fireball. And I tried a wizard once but it was no fun with everything being to easy (auto know every spell of the level you know and what not) so I had no fun doing it and ended up getting instakilled because I was overpowered for doing about 50 damage at level 8. It's fun at times I've just gotten(forced) used to my role and now I have to melee characters that can combat the enemies he makes that can soak her damage and it's getting difficult(like cr+5 at least encounters) that's why I was asking about power attack because it was suggested and I didn't see how it was actually any good.

[TheIronGolem]

And I tried a wizard once but it was no fun with everything being to easy (auto know every spell of the level you know and what not)

That is not the case with wizards, at least not as the rules are written.

[Shining Wrath]

Here's how you can know Power Attack is cool: Notice how many of the Fighter Bonus feats can be replicated by adding a +1 bonus to your weapon or armor. Dodge? Less than +1 to armor. Improved Initiative? Warning is +1 - not exactly the same, but comparable. As a rule of thumb, a decent fighter feat is roughly the same as a +1 weapon bonus.

Now notice that there's no way to buy Power Attack for your weapon. And if there was, I think people would be willing to pay +2 or +3 for it.

[ILM]

that's why I was asking about power attack because it was suggested and I didn't see how it was actually any good.
That's mostly because you don't appear to be playing the same game as the rest of us.

[oxybe]

First, as others have said, Power Attack is more of an investment then a one-time thing. You grab it and build on it. You find ways to get your to-hit naturally high. Here is some information on maxing out the potency of power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129070-3-X-Optimizing-Power-Attack).

High strength, charging bonus, flanking bonus, attacking from invisible (attack bonus PLUS enemy is flat footed), attacking from higher ground, buffs spells, debuffing your enemy beforehand, a brilliant energy weapon (Your weapon ignores non-living material, like armor and shields and their bonuses to AC), etc... It's not a hard thing to do, but if you're going to be power attacking with some frequency, it's a good thing to keep in mind.

Second... Wat.

300 damage fireballs?

That is pants on head ludicrous. That is Maximized, Empowered, Intensified Fireball levels of damage here. I am talking, level 9 spell slot with a second one quickened via metamagic rod thrown in for good measure. cast from dual-bloodline Pathfinder sorceror who gets 2 bonus damage per die.

(15d6+30 maximized)+(15d6+30)/2
120+41, or 161 per fireball

and the enemy needs to fail his both his reflex saves AND not have any form of evasion.

Third, there is no rule about "improving spells" with spellcraft, regardless if it's pathfinder of 3rd ed. Also, wizards know all level 0 and 3+int mod level 1 spells at level 1 and learn 2 new spells (not 2 spells of all levels, just "pick 2 spells") at every level up. Any extra spell needs to be either taught to the wizard by another, learned via independent research (which costs money) or learned via transcribing a scroll (which can be found or bought), but the inks and whatnot to transcribe have their own separate cost, regardless of how you get these spells. What is going on is strait up houserule territory.

Wizard is the last class that needs a power-up in D&D. If anything maybe a hit point boost so it's slightly less squishy on the off-chance a stray attack goes through and connects. 300+ damage is generally overkill on anything but the strongest and highest level monsters.
-----------------------
On a final thought, I did a quick google search for 3.5 monster HP (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1118841) (in the first post, click "Average & Max Values per CR". Note these values consider monster manuals I-V.)and it seems that the first time you that much HP (300) is around level 10 in it's most corner of corner cases. On average they ballpark about 140, half that amount.

It's only around level 18 where average monster HP hits ~300.

Noting very well that that CR18 creature with ~300HP is statted up to (supposedly) be a challenge for 4 level 18 characters. That this wizard is one-shotting.

With the poster boy for bad-yet-iconic spells, fireball.

[Greenish]

attacking from invisible (attack bonus PLUS enemy is flat footed)Being invisible doesn't make the target flat-footed if it wouldn't otherwise be, it merely causes them to (probably) lose their Dex bonus to AC against your attacks. The difference is somewhat academic if you're not using iaijutsu focus, granted.

[Urpriest]

Being invisible doesn't make the target flat-footed if it wouldn't otherwise be, it merely causes them to (probably) lose their Dex bonus to AC against your attacks. The difference is somewhat academic if you're not using iaijutsu focus, granted.

IIRC, the Rules Compendium changed that, but I may be mixing it up with a different RC-based change to the invisibility mechanics.

[atemu1234]

Well, it sounds like you have a bad DM. I know what it's like to play with siblings, and I get you don't want to leave, but point out a little bit more insistently that she's doing about 10x the damage she should with a single spell. Point it out in the Player's Handbook if you have to.

[Greenish]

IIRC, the Rules Compendium changed that, but I may be mixing it up with a different RC-based change to the invisibility mechanics.Possibly. RC pages 76-77 just say: "An invisible attacker gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against opponents that can’t see it. Opponents are denied their Dexterity bonuses to AC against an invisible attacker’s attacks. "

[johnbragg]

1. Do you have a Players' Handbook? You might want to get one.

2. Maybe pick up a module and offer to DM a one-shot using the actual rules in the book. See what they say.

[oxybe]

Yeah I keep mixing up "denied dex" and "flat footed" since for the most part they're effectively the same thing (barring things like Iaijutsu, which my group never used). "flat-footed" might have just become synonymous with "denied dex" over the years of play.

My bad on that one.

[Sewercop]

IIRC, the Rules Compendium changed that, but I may be mixing it up with a different RC-based change to the invisibility mechanics.

Isn`t the problem with the rules compendium the fact that it is not taking prescedence over core... That makes it useless imo.

[Deophaun]

Isn`t the problem with the rules compendium the fact that it is not taking prescedence over core... That makes it useless imo.
The reasoning that would make Core take precedence over the RC is the same reasoning that would make Core take precedence over errata. Which makes it silly.

[atemu1234]

The reasoning that would make Core take precedence over the RC is the same reasoning that would make Core take precedence over errata. Which makes it silly.

Wait, it isn't silly?

[Urpriest]

Possibly. RC pages 76-77 just say: "An invisible attacker gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against opponents that can’t see it. Opponents are denied their Dexterity bonuses to AC against an invisible attacker’s attacks. "

Ah, right. It was that the RC established that being hidden makes your opponent count as flat-footed, as per their section on Hide. So you'd need to not only be invisible, but to succeed at your Hide check.


Isn`t the problem with the rules compendium the fact that it is not taking prescedence over core... That makes it useless imo.

Eh, only if you actually use the primary source rules, which outside of forum discussions are more rarely applied than multiclassing penalties.


The reasoning that would make Core take precedence over the RC is the same reasoning that would make Core take precedence over errata. Which makes it silly.

No it isn't. The rule people cite to argue that the Rules Compendium is meaningless was introduced in the errata document, and as such specifically takes into account errata and gives it top billing for precedence purposes.

[Deophaun]

Wait, it isn't silly?
It's actually the logic of it that's silly. For the interpretation that strips the RC of its authority to be true, the Errata must be true. However, under that same logic, the Errata cannot also be true, because both rely on self-reference for their authority. So, the logic cannot hold.

Besides, there was never any Errata issued for page 5 of the RC.

Edit: Case in point -

No it isn't. The rule people cite to argue that the Rules Compendium is meaningless was introduced in the errata document, and as such specifically takes into account errata and gives it top billing for precedence purposes.

[Coidzor]

I see where the problem is now, I only really play low level games where BaB never goes much higher than 6 so when I focus a build on damage output sacrificing BaB for more attacks or something similar power attack puts my BaB into the negatives, but in a higher level game with better BaB I can afford to sacrifice a lot more. Though wouldn't I be outpaced by casters by then anyways?

You shouldn't be able to get your BAB into the negatives by the RAW. :smallconfused: As well, if you're focused on damage output, the ability score you use for hitting should never have a negative modifier unless something terrible has happened with ability damage/drain.


On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)


Well I've played with 2 rogues, one was played beautifully and never didn't one hit kill any non boss NPCs, the other... was trying desperately to be a paladin. And the least damage I've seen her do to a single enemy above level 5 is about 200. But she does her own math and the DM doesn't check her spells known, or spells per day and lets her improve spells with spellcrafting how she wants and I'm not going to argue with her about it. She once did 500 damage with a fireball one hitting the dragon and all his minions then proceeded to get upset about how the SECOND dragon was still alive and she was underpowered as she flew over to her pet dragon and wolf to go one hit the Dragon Lich.

That's ridiculous. Sounds like you'd be better off without a game than playing in an environment like that with people who actively disrespect you.

[johnbragg]

You shouldn't be able to get your BAB into the negatives by the RAW. :smallconfused: As well, if you're focused on damage output, the ability score you use for hitting should never have a negative modifier unless something terrible has happened with ability damage/drain.

Upthread, he's playing at a table where the wizard (DM's wife/girlfriend, I think) is throwing out 300 hp fireballs. He's got enough problems--let him power attack past his BAB.

[Coidzor]

Upthread, he's playing at a table where the wizard (DM's wife/girlfriend, I think) is throwing out 300 hp fireballs. He's got enough problems--let him power attack past his BAB.

I'm pretty sure that power attacking past his BAB is part of the problem with not understanding how Power Attack works or what it's there for that led to the creation of this thread.

Though, sure, power attack for arbitrarily high damage, because past a certain point one is only hitting on a natural 20 anyway.

[squiggit]

O.o
That's... not possible.

Pfft. Naw. An Empowered Maximized triple Enhanced Fireball does 360 damage for one 20th level spell slot.

[Urpriest]

For the record, it's not necessarily terrible if your houserules lead to 300 damage fireballs at 5th level. You just have to ask, in detail, which houserules are being used, and then use them to boost your own damage (or ask for comparable houserules if the ones used don't apply).

[Marlowe]

He's talking at doing this kind of damage from level 5 onward.

There's also that comment about "I think it was going to be a Red Dragon until she said Fireball". :smalleek:

[RolkFlameraven]

"She does her own math" she keeps using this word, I do not think it means what she thinks it means...

IE she just says a huge number and no one calls BS, there is no math involved with this. If you hardly ever get to BAB of 6+ there is no way in hell she could ever roll enough 6D's on a fireball to deal that kind of damage to each target. 200+ vs a single target is beyond stupid as well for any Wiz at those levels.

Also, there was something about auto knowing every spell at your level? That's a Cleric/Druid NOT a Wiz. A Wizard gets two spells per level for every level higher then one, plus however many scrolls/spells from a dead enemy wizards spellbook they can copy for some gp and time.

Why she feels the need to cheat this badly and blatantly with the most powerful class in the game while using it the worst possible way I don't really think I want to know but... well you might want to either read the PHB a little closer and start calling her out as it doesn't sound like much fun, or offer to DM for a bit so the rest of the group can see how its supposed to work.

[TheIronGolem]

"She does her own math" she keeps using this word, I do not think it means what she thinks it means...

IE she just says a huge number and no one calls BS, there is no math involved with this. If you hardly ever get to BAB of 6+ there is no way in hell she could ever roll enough 6D's on a fireball to deal that kind of damage to each target. 200+ vs a single target is beyond stupid as well for any Wiz at those levels.

Also, there was something about auto knowing every spell at your level? That's a Cleric/Druid NOT a Wiz. A Wizard gets two spells per level for every level higher then one, plus however many scrolls/spells from a dead enemy wizards spellbook they can copy for some gp and time.

Why she feels the need to cheat this badly and blatantly with the most powerful class in the game while using it the worst possible way I don't really think I want to know but... well you might want to either read the PHB a little closer and start calling her out as it doesn't sound like much fun, or offer to DM for a bit so the rest of the group can see how its supposed to work.

Slow down there, cowboy. She isn't necessarily "cheating"; it's possible that that the OP's group is heavily houseruled or just doesn't know the actual rules very well.

[Sir Chuckles]

Slow down there, cowboy. She isn't necessarily "cheating"; it's possible that that the OP's group is heavily houseruled or just doesn't know the actual rules very well.

While "doing her own math" in combination with what appears to be the DM's own willful ignorance, plus house rules that seem to be specifically designed to favor the one particular player, may not be, to some, cheating, such actions are certainly bending the rules past the point of usefulness, recognizability, and even purpose. If it's not the player cheating, then it's the DM cheating for the player.

The particularly telling statement was the one where the DM supposedly changed a dragon's color to favor the player. This all points to a DM playing favorites and getting away with it due to the other player's heavy lack of system mastery and willingness to intervene. Add in the earlier "Altering the battlefield last second to avoid a charge attack from working", and it points to a table that has gone completely FUBAR.

At the OP: If it's still fun, by all means ignore the non-optimization talks and continue playing. However, if you feel that the game would benefit from everyone playing the same game, keep us posted on your actions and the other player's and DM's responses. We're all more than capable of helping sort this out, but remember that we've already handed you the Big Red Escape Button. That is, leaving the game and/or table.

[squiggit]

Slow down there, cowboy. She isn't necessarily "cheating"; it's possible that that the OP's group is heavily houseruled or just doesn't know the actual rules very well.
from the previous page:

and ended up getting instakilled because I was overpowered for doing about 50 damage at level 8.


She once did 500 damage with a fireball one hitting the dragon and all his minions then proceeded to get upset about how the SECOND dragon was still alive and she was underpowered as she flew over to her pet dragon and wolf to go one hit the Dragon Lich.


It certainly doesn't sound like anything as innocuous as some odd house rules and rule confusion.

[MorgromTheOrc]

First, as others have said, Power Attack is more of an investment then a one-time thing. You grab it and build on it. You find ways to get your to-hit naturally high. Here is some information on maxing out the potency of power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129070-3-X-Optimizing-Power-Attack).

High strength, charging bonus, flanking bonus, attacking from invisible (attack bonus PLUS enemy is flat footed), attacking from higher ground, buffs spells, debuffing your enemy beforehand, a brilliant energy weapon (Your weapon ignores non-living material, like armor and shields and their bonuses to AC), etc... It's not a hard thing to do, but if you're going to be power attacking with some frequency, it's a good thing to keep in mind.

Second... Wat.

300 damage fireballs?

That is pants on head ludicrous. That is Maximized, Empowered, Intensified Fireball levels of damage here. I am talking, level 9 spell slot with a second one quickened via metamagic rod thrown in for good measure. cast from dual-bloodline Pathfinder sorceror who gets 2 bonus damage per die.

(15d6+30 maximized)+(15d6+30)/2
120+41, or 161 per fireball

and the enemy needs to fail his both his reflex saves AND not have any form of evasion.

Third, there is no rule about "improving spells" with spellcraft, regardless if it's pathfinder of 3rd ed. Also, wizards know all level 0 and 3+int mod level 1 spells at level 1 and learn 2 new spells (not 2 spells of all levels, just "pick 2 spells") at every level up. Any extra spell needs to be either taught to the wizard by another, learned via independent research (which costs money) or learned via transcribing a scroll (which can be found or bought), but the inks and whatnot to transcribe have their own separate cost, regardless of how you get these spells. What is going on is strait up houserule territory.

Wizard is the last class that needs a power-up in D&D. If anything maybe a hit point boost so it's slightly less squishy on the off-chance a stray attack goes through and connects. 300+ damage is generally overkill on anything but the strongest and highest level monsters.
-----------------------
On a final thought, I did a quick google search for 3.5 monster HP (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1118841) (in the first post, click "Average & Max Values per CR". Note these values consider monster manuals I-V.)and it seems that the first time you that much HP (300) is around level 10 in it's most corner of corner cases. On average they ballpark about 140, half that amount.

It's only around level 18 where average monster HP hits ~300.

Noting very well that that CR18 creature with ~300HP is statted up to (supposedly) be a challenge for 4 level 18 characters. That this wizard is one-shotting.

With the poster boy for bad-yet-iconic spells, fireball.

Sorry I thought I already said that it's the DM's wife and he lets her do whatever including basically knowing all spells because he doesn't check and that he had his own system for spellcraft for her that lets her basically infinitly upgrade stuff if she gets high enough rolls. Which she "always" does.

[Doctor Awkward]

Sorry I thought I already said that it's the DM's wife and he lets her do whatever including basically knowing all spells because he doesn't check and that he had his own system for spellcraft for her that lets her basically infinitly upgrade stuff if she gets high enough rolls. Which she "always" does.

Forgive me, but it doesn't sound like the problems at that table can be solved by making optimal use of Power Attack.

[lsfreak]

Has no one considered that the 300 damage fireball mentioned uppage might be referring to a whole group of monsters who each took 25 damage? While there's clearly some super-sketchy stuff going on, less op-knowledgeable players often make the mistake of looking at the damage a fireball could do in supremely favorable conditions. A fireball doing 300 damage when the DM puts 15 monsters together (out of stupidity or favoritism) isn't unexpected. Let's at least get confirmation that he means 300 damage in a single hit to a single target.

EDIT: That said:
Forgive me, but it doesn't sound like the problems at that table can be solved by making optimal use of Power Attack.

[MorgromTheOrc]

"She does her own math" she keeps using this word, I do not think it means what she thinks it means...

IE she just says a huge number and no one calls BS, there is no math involved with this. If you hardly ever get to BAB of 6+ there is no way in hell she could ever roll enough 6D's on a fireball to deal that kind of damage to each target. 200+ vs a single target is beyond stupid as well for any Wiz at those levels.

Also, there was something about auto knowing every spell at your level? That's a Cleric/Druid NOT a Wiz. A Wizard gets two spells per level for every level higher then one, plus however many scrolls/spells from a dead enemy wizards spellbook they can copy for some gp and time.

Why she feels the need to cheat this badly and blatantly with the most powerful class in the game while using it the worst possible way I don't really think I want to know but... well you might want to either read the PHB a little closer and start calling her out as it doesn't sound like much fun, or offer to DM for a bit so the rest of the group can see how its supposed to work.

Yeah I've offered to DM before because I do know the rules pretty well, but that's why I'm not allowed to. The current DM doesn't want me to because I'm younger and he doesn't want me to be in charge of him, and his wife doesn't want me to because she knows I would enforce the rules. I'm not saying I'm super worried about fixing the way they want to play, just that I was trying to be better at what I do in comparison. Recently I've been trying to talk her into playing something less op by giving a lot of powerful feeling fluff but she ended rerolling as a wizard after missing her fireballs. Although she used to be worse(almost the same damage but on magic missiles) so I think it's getting better, I've been trying to get them to use less dandwiki.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Has no one considered that the 300 damage fireball mentioned uppage might be referring to a whole group of monsters who each took 25 damage? While there's clearly some super-sketchy stuff going on, less op-knowledgeable players often make the mistake of looking at the damage a fireball could do in supremely favorable conditions. A fireball doing 300 damage when the DM puts 15 monsters together (out of stupidity or favoritism) isn't unexpected. Let's at least get confirmation that he means 300 damage in a single hit to a single target.

EDIT: That said:

It's 300+ to each monster it hits.

[TheCrowing1432]

Oh wow.

Well its obvious your DM's wife is cheating.

It sounds like she solves every single encounter with this 300 damage fireball nonsense.

How anything even gets up after this is a wonder.

What the point of even playing DND if every encounter ends up like this?

Especially like you yourself said you dont get mid level.

I mean around level 6, theres no monster of your CR level that has anywhere near 300 health. Unless of course your DM is buffing the monsters to hell in order to compensate.

But if he is, then the CR is higher and you'd get more experience.

But your DM probably doesnt do that either and gives you the standard experience.

*sigh* you're in a bad way mate.

[johnbragg]

It sounds like the group is you, your brother, his wife and one other (the rogue/ranger you mentioned.)

Does the other player have any thoughts?

That said, this isn't fun for you. I'd tell them I wasn't playing anymore in a game where player abilities are based on who's having sex with the DM.

[MorgromTheOrc]

It sounds like the group is you, your brother, his wife and one other (the rogue/ranger you mentioned.)

Does the other player have any thoughts?

That said, this isn't fun for you. I'd tell them I wasn't playing anymore in a game where player abilities are based on who's having sex with the DM.

The other player is doing the same thing as me, ignoring it and trying to build around it. And I'm worried about just leaving because I think it might cause family distance. And I've heard the whole "No gaming is better than bad gaming," but what if I really NEVER got to play DND again?

[TheCrowing1432]

The other player is doing the same thing as me, ignoring it and trying to build around it. And I'm worried about just leaving because I think it might cause family distance. And I've heard the whole "No gaming is better than bad gaming," but what if I really NEVER got to play DND again?

Sit down with your bro and have a reasonable discussion with him.

Fireballs only have a max damage output of 60 damage, without any metamagic or anything like that.

Plus a lot of things are outright immune to fire, and get reflex saves for half damage. Or if they have evasion, no damage at all.

[Chronos]

Next time you play, first encounter, tell the DM that you rolled a 60 for initiative, and then when your turn comes up, tell him you're casting Meteor Storm. Yes, with your rogue. Why not?

[johnbragg]

Next time you play, first encounter, tell the DM that you rolled a 60 for initiative, and then when your turn comes up, tell him you're casting Meteor Storm. Yes, with your rogue. Why not?

Yes. Your fighter rolled an Eleventy Seven on your Spellcraft check, so you're casting Fireball. No, dodgeball. No, Calvinball (if you're old enough to remember Calvin and Hobbes).

[Deophaun]

The current DM doesn't want me to because I'm younger and he doesn't want me to be in charge of him...
That's a basic lack of respect.

Really, it seems that the DM is just using you and the other player as props to entertain his wife.

[atemu1234]

That's a basic lack of respect.

Really, it seems that the DM is just using you and the other player as props to entertain his wife.

So many possible jokes...

[MorgromTheOrc]

So many possible jokes...

Oh god no, please don't. But seriously I'm not looking to revolutionize the way they play(though maybe steer it towards RAW a little more) I just wanted an opinion on a feat that I was suggested that didn't seem worth it, now I know better so I will use it in the future.

[Zaq]

Yes. Your fighter rolled an Eleventy Seven on your Spellcraft check, so you're casting Fireball. No, dodgeball. No, Calvinball (if you're old enough to remember Calvin and Hobbes).

Wait, there are people who aren't old enough to remember Calvin and Hobbes?

Now I feel old.

[eggynack]

Now I know better so I will use it in the future.
Or not. Seriously, you're playing a game that bares only limited resemblance to D&D, especially in terms of what is optimal. You're playing a character with basically one plausible advantage over a caster, that being damage, except you don't do nearly as much damage, even with power attack and shock trooper. Power attack isn't going to be particularly optimal in your game, primarily because just about nothing is going to be optimal. Realistically, your best bet might be aiming for some variety of lock down strategy, like tripping or intimidation, assuming the wizard is spending more time exploding than controlling.

[Renen]

Oh god no, please don't. But seriously I'm not looking to revolutionize the way they play(though maybe steer it towards RAW a little more) I just wanted an opinion on a feat that I was suggested that didn't seem worth it, now I know better so I will use it in the future.

Personally, I would just (respectfully) leave the game. I cant stand people purposefully cheating. Sure, fudging dice is fine if everyone agrees that rolling 3 1's in a row is BS. But a DM letting his wife just "insta win" isnt fun.

But hey, if you ever wanna kill her character, you just become fire immune and smack her character with a sword.

[Sir Chuckles]

Personally, I would just (respectfully) leave the game. I cant stand people purposefully cheating. Sure, fudging dice is fine if everyone agrees that rolling 3 1's in a row is BS. But a DM letting his wife just "insta win" isnt fun.

But hey, if you ever wanna kill her character, you just become fire immune and smack her character with a sword.

I don't think that would work. PvP can work in extraneous situations where the one getting hit is operating within the rules.
This situation is brought about by willful ignorance and the DM himself. Nothing short of copying the actions of the Wife will have any effect.

On that note, have you tried copying the DM's Wife? Match "Alicia the Elf Wizard" with "Alisha the Drow Warmage". Other arcane casting classes would also work. If you want to make it less obvious, go with a Cleric, they get Spellcraft.

If you don't want to do that, write a corny Rogue/Lucky Scoundrel character and just trapeze across the campaign world, making somewhat "meta" quips and jibs about the character's actions. Roll in the open, and if you fail the roll, active your myriad of luck feats and roll in secret.
"Man, I love a good fireworks show. I don't have to pay for it! I just stuff my pockets full of dead dragon loot!"
"Oh man, that is a huge horde of kobolds. I might actually have to pull out my kni- No wait. You already turned them into well-done rib roast. Why'd I even buy this dinky little toothpick?"
(Have a high-ish Int for this one) "Jee-ZUS! I just realized that I completely understand all the arcane mumbo jumbo you were just spouttin'! And here I am squattin' in a bush when I could've trained in mass genocide!"

This is all assuming that you don't leave the game. You've voiced concerns over never playing again and family discord. The former is not something you should worry about. Organize a game with the other player, or play online. There's dozens of places online, from roll20 for Skype to this very website, where you strut your gamin' online.

As for the second issue...there's essentially nothing we can do to help you there. Though, you could set up a game where you or the other player DM's, and invite people who aren't your current DM and his wife. He may still get upset, but I'd be willing to bet not nearly as much as if you left and did that.

[Coidzor]

The other player is doing the same thing as me, ignoring it and trying to build around it. And I'm worried about just leaving because I think it might cause family distance. And I've heard the whole "No gaming is better than bad gaming," but what if I really NEVER got to play DND again?

Unlikely. And anyway, better to never play again than to play with someone who disrespects you and then uses the emotionally abusive tactic of trying to exploit your familial connection to try to coerce you into staying.

[ericgrau]

Shock Trooper. Now you can full PA and hit anything you want.
Yeup. PA is meh. Shock trooper is what the optimizers use. Or specifically heedless charge. Quick, name the other 2 parts of the feat! This is the editing oversight to rule all melee.

[Necroticplague]

Yeup. PA is meh. Shock trooper is what the optimizers use. Or specifically heedless charge. Quick, name the other 2 parts of the feat! This is the editing oversight to rule all melee.

Ability to change the direction of a bull rush by 45 degrees, ability to trip both enemies if you bull rush one into another. Dungeoncrashers make frequent use of all aspects of it.

[Eldariel]

Yeup. PA is meh. Shock trooper is what the optimizers use. Or specifically heedless charge. Quick, name the other 2 parts of the feat! This is the editing oversight to rule all melee.

Even plain PA varies from "decent" to "awesome" depending on the amount of situational buffs (it's trivially obvious that the more you focus on improving your hit score, the better your Power Attack), enemy types and such you're dealing with. Usually it's about competitive with Weapon Specialization early on and pulls out ahead vs. equal-CR opponent if you keep on top of the hit curve. Of course, the real beauty is when you get to convert seriously large to hit bonuses into damage; Quickened True Strike into max Power Attack Mounted Charge while two-handing a Lance is a core-only available ticket to hundreds of damage on a single attack with very decent likelihood of hitting that you can do on the surprise round (with standard action charge). Admittedly, it's only really an option for Eldritch Knights but it's a nice one nevertheless, far as mobile melee combat goes (the only decent one aside from Pounce). Of course, it does require 5 feats, which is non-trivial.

[ericgrau]

You should still convert the about the same amount of attack bonus into damage even with extra bonuses to hit. You'll get more dpr keeping them for the hit chance instead. Only the excess beyond +5 or so is usually good to convert due to auto hit. And that's hard to pull off 24 hours a day without some heavy optimization.

Quickened true strike power attack can be done at high enough level, but it's a lot to build around and comes online late. And when it's first online it's 1/day unless you can afford 3 high stats or you spend 8 levels as a diviner for no reason until you finally get the 9th one... just to get 2/day. Realistically to get an ok number of uses you want to be level 13, and level 15 is better.

More realistically high level power attack by itself is as good as +1 damage per hit, if not a net damage loss. It takes tremendous effort or particular uncommon foes to make it more worthwhile than that. At low level at the very peak it adds about the same dpr as +3 damage per hit. And that's being generous. Lack of consistency actually makes it worse than what the average damage figures show.

[Eldariel]

You should still convert the about the same amount of attack bonus into damage even with extra bonuses to hit. You'll get more dpr keeping them for the hit chance instead. Only the excess beyond +5 or so is usually good to convert due to auto hit. And that's hard to pull off 24 hours a day without some heavy optimization.

Every time I run the math with just basic strength optimization, there's usually a few points of damage on average to be gained per attack with just an Orc and minor bonus feats, maxed strength and Greater Magic Weapon of appropriate level. Humans fall a bit behind this but any major source of to hit (Knowledge Devotion, tripping, charge/flanking/high ground, Law Devotion, Wraithstrike, high strength bipedal Polymorph, etc.) is still sufficient to let them Power Attack safely. Again, it's just a matter of focusing on one number. In general, enemies significantly above the curve in terms of AC are quite a bit more rare (far as the number in MM goes) than enemies with a lot of HP and relatively low AC; of course, in the latter case PA is excellent while in the former it's questionable.

[atemu1234]

Wait, there are people who aren't old enough to remember Calvin and Hobbes?

Now I feel old.

That's how I felt when I read that.

[Necroticplague]

You should still convert the about the same amount of attack bonus into damage even with extra bonuses to hit. You'll get more dpr keeping them for the hit chance instead. Only the excess beyond +5 or so is usually good to convert due to auto hit. And that's hard to pull off 24 hours a day without some heavy optimization.

Wrong on both accounts. A greataxe/greatsword does about 7 points of damage. Increasing to-hit by 1, and not using that bonus to PA, is a 5% increase in average damage, about .35 points. Using that +1 to instead PA for +2 damage increases the average damage by 2, about a 28% increase. Even taking more factors into account (damage for someone who actually melees is more like 7[weapon]+6[1.5STR]=13), you still get that PA gives better returns than the accuracy you trade for it (Accuracy DPR increase: 13*.05=.65).

Only if you consider 'being a swordsage' or 'use shock trooper already' or 'learn what gives bonuses to attacks' to be "heavy optimization".

[Chronos]

Increasing to-hit by 1, and not using that bonus to PA, is a 5% increase in average damage...
Show your work. If without the +1 you're only hitting on a 20, and the +1 lets you also hit on a 19, then it's doubling your damage. If you hit on an 11 or higher, and the +1 lets you hit on a 10 or higher, it's increasing your damage by 10%. If you're hitting on a 3 or higher, and the +1 lets you hit on a 2 or higher, then it's increasing your damage by 1/18, which is still slightly better than 5%. Under no circumstances is a +1 to hit a 5% increase in damage.

For what it's worth, I had a clerzilla character with one open feat, and briefly considered taking Power Attack... but I crunched the numbers, and found that, once I accounted for all of his bonuses to both attack and damage, his optimal Power Attack amount versus plausible ACs was actually only 0 or at most 1 point. More than that, and it just wasn't worth the increased chance of missing on the fourth iterative attack. That was for a full attack, and Power Attack is more appealing on a single attack, but I also had spells to help me get full attacks more often.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Have you ever considered asking the Uber Mage Wizzard (not a typo) to just craft you some gear?

Think about it, she's apparently EPIC level in sub-10 form. Ask for stuff like... A bracelet that shoots a bunch of magic missiles shaped as flaming (but still force) shurikens once every three turns.

Appeal to her vanity, and get her to use her brokenness to your advantage.

Remember, the DM can't shoot YOU down, if he can't shoot HER down.

...I have this distinct urge to get a cardboard box and a big black marker now. Hmm...

[Deophaun]

Ability to change the direction of a bull rush by 45 degrees, ability to trip both enemies if you bull rush one into another. Dungeoncrashers make frequent use of all aspects of it.

Yup. I had a Goliath Dungeoncrasher that loved mook bowling. That was the primary reason he took Shock Trooper. The PA stuff was just gravy.

[Eldariel]

Wrong on both accounts. A greataxe/greatsword does about 7 points of damage. Increasing to-hit by 1, and not using that bonus to PA, is a 5% increase in average damage, about .35 points. Using that +1 to instead PA for +2 damage increases the average damage by 2, about a 28% increase. Even taking more factors into account (damage for someone who actually melees is more like 7[weapon]+6[1.5STR]=13), you still get that PA gives better returns than the accuracy you trade for it (Accuracy DPR increase: 13*.05=.65).

This math only works for middle values in BAB distribution. Hit is essentially a multiplier for expected damage. Power Attack trades multiplier for flat damage, which ranges from very profitable trade for high Hit, low Damage to very unprofitable for high Damage, low Hit.

In one end you have the change from "hits on 19-20" to "hits on 20"; +2 flat damage from Power Attack but -50% overall expected damage. As such, it's only a good trade if your base damage without Power Attack is 1 or less (or rather, exactly 1 since the system doesn't go under that; in fact, if you have damage that rounds up to 1, Power Attack becomes worse). At 1 damage, your 19-20 expected damage is 0.1 while 3 damage only hitting on 20 is 0.15 expected damage.

In the other extreme, going from "hits on 2-20" to "hits on 3-20" is a drop from 90% to 85%, about a 5.6% multiplier decrease. If your base damage is under 34, you're gaining more than 2 base damage out of it (34 * 0.9 = 36 * 0.85).


Of course, the real math is much more complex with iteratives, extra attacks (at least the one from Haste), critical strikes, non-multiplicatory damage, situational hit modifiers and what-have-you. As such I won't go into detail about the math since it'd be a lot of work for relatively little benefit, but it basically boils down to this: Generally, with iteratives & Haste attack, it's worth it to Power Attack all BAB you have in excess of your target's AC on your first attack.

For very high amounts of base damage this can change (such as having 9d6 of various elementals/alignmentals on your weapon and having all of that actually work on the opponent; that can lead to lesser PA being optimal) and removing the extra attack likewise hurts Power Attack significantly, but on the flipside situational combat modifiers commonly benefit Power Attack, as well as any Hit-boosting buff spells or similar effect. Power Attack works with criticals so generally criticals, where applicable, benefit Power Attack (though the Confirmation roll does suffer of it of course). Also, any additional sources of extra attacks such as Natural Attacks (in spite of their 1.0 ratio), extra main attacks, etc. usually benefit Power Attack due to operating at the highest attack bonus. Finally, builds that plan on making a single attack with multipliers such as Mounted Chargers obviously get significantly greater returns out of Power Attack due to not having to worry about iteratives. Same applies on low levels before iteratives enter the picture, though attack rolls being relatively low compared to ACs on low levels makes Power Attack not-quite-as-amazing-as-it-could be there.

Suffice to say though, having done the math for a bunch of my various warrior and gish types, vast majority of them have been able to make pretty good returns out of Power Attack vs. most opponents they face. Being in a party generally enhances Power Attack due to buffs, flanking, allied trippers, etc. as well which is something to keep in mind when doing the calculations - most of the time you'll be in a party and thus you'll have access to benefits beyond what's on your character sheet.

[bjoern]

Regarding the fireball.......an incantatrix using practical metamagic, arcane thesis, maximize, empower, twin, and repeating cando over 300 damage from a single 7th level slot. And using +0 metamagics could get it from an even lower slot.

[eggynack]

Regarding the fireball.......an incantatrix using practical metamagic, arcane thesis, maximize, empower, twin, and repeating cando over 300 damage from a single 7th level slot. And using +0 metamagics could get it from an even lower slot.
Sure, mailman style builds are always a thing. It's just that indications are that that's not what's happening. She's apparently just sorta doing this stuff with little to no basis within the rules, using a weird spellcraft houserule and maybe some other silliness.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Regarding the fireball.......an incantatrix using practical metamagic, arcane thesis, maximize, empower, twin, and repeating cando over 300 damage from a single 7th level slot. And using +0 metamagics could get it from an even lower slot.

Which is 4 fireballs, over two rounds, with 4 saves; there are ways of avoiding the damage there. The DM is letting his wife be the "winner" of DnD and having the others there to watch.

If you think that your family relationship is going to become strained because you withdraw from this campaign than your brother is, most likely, not a very good human being. Not entirely nice, I know, but let's face it: he disrespects you; his wife disrespects you; he trying to emotionally blackmail you. This is a bad situation. Try a PbP here; there are always plenty.