Warforged Saint with Vow of Poverty Cleric/Warlock - can it be done?

[JW86]

Just a thought experiment.

I had two cool character ideas in mind.

One was a Human or Lesser Aasimar Saint Bard1/Cleric Xwho uses Reach and Chain spell for Cure Wounds, later getting DMM:Persist and buffing herself to high heaven to wade in and eat face.

The other was a Warforged Warlock, shooting Eldritch Blasts/Lasers.

Then I had the unfortunate idea of combining the two.

Warforged Vow of Poverty Saint has a load of awesome buffs/defences/immunities.
Stack a load of healing, spellcasting, invocations and eldritch blast on top for more fun.

Could it work? How might it look? Brainstorms are welcome.

[Thurbane]

Problem with VoP and Cleric is I don't think you're allowed to own a holy symbol, which is required for a lot of spells.

I've seen some dubious ways around this, by getting your "symbol" tattooed on you, or engraved on one of the simple items you're allowed to own...

[atemu1234]

Problem with VoP and Cleric is I don't think you're allowed to own a holy symbol, which is required for a lot of spells.

I've seen some dubious ways around this, by getting your "symbol" tattooed on you, or engraved on one of the simple items you're allowed to own...

Which is hilarious, considering.

Though to be fair, I think you're allowed to own one, same as being allowed to own a (nonmagical) weapon that is not of masterwork quality.

[JW86]

Go-faster red stripes of Pelor, gotcha. :)

[Zaq]

Are you gestalting, or multiclassing? Because if you're multiclassing, Cleric and Warlock don't really play nice with each other. There's a PrC to combine them (Eldritch Disciple, from Complete Mage), but you're still going to be behind in both progressions, which isn't a good place to be.

If you're gestalting, that's a little better, but they still might not be a perfectly ideal match. In gestalt, you generally want to focus on the buffs that Warlock gives you, but Cleric buffs can cover most of those bases if you pick your spells well. It can still work, but I wouldn't call it a slam dunk match.

And of course, as other folks have stated, you need a minor GM houserule to be allowed a holy symbol, as VoP technically bans that by RAW. Most GMs are cool with bending that particular rule, I'd wager, but check before you get too deep into the concept.

[IZ42]

Last time I looked at VoP, you couldn't own any item over 100 GP, and no magical items whatsoever. So, unless I'm missing something and Holy Symbols are magical, he should be good if he doesn't by a silver or gold version.

[Zaq]

Last time I looked at VoP, you couldn't own any item over 100 GP, and no magical items whatsoever. So, unless I'm missing something and Holy Symbols are magical, he should be good if he doesn't by a silver or gold version.

You may want to look again. BoED pg. 48 lays out exactly what you can and can't have. It says no material possessions AT ALL aside from a very small whitelist, which doesn't include a holy symbol.

[Troacctid]

Actually, I'd say Warlock and Cleric play reasonably well together. Eldritch Disciple combines them pretty well and you only lose two levels of Cleric casting, which sucks early on but is not such a big deal at higher levels. It's a little better if you use early entry for the Cleric side so you can go Warlock 4/Cleric 1/Eldritch Disciple 10, since you are only losing one caster level compared to a straight Warlock, as opposed to losing two compared to a straight Cleric. (You also don't miss out on your detect magic with the primary-Warlock composition, which is essentially an extra invocation.)

The more pressing problem is that neither of them play well with Saint or Vow of Poverty. Saint is terrible because you lose two caster levels, which you just flat out cannot afford to do on a theurge build--you are already behind and it will cripple you. Vow of Poverty is terrible (even if you can have a holy symbol) because there are no good exalted feats that go with your classes--like none--and the items that boost your Eldritch Blast are irreplaceable.

[Invader]

You may want to look again. BoED pg. 48 lays out exactly what you can and can't have. It says no material possessions AT ALL aside from a very small whitelist, which doesn't include a holy symbol.

But you can can have a spell component pouch and there's no reason a holy symbol can't be one of the components.

Although I'm not sure where the rule is that says you have to have a holy symbol anyway.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Although I'm not sure where the rule is that says you have to have a holy symbol anyway.

A Holy Symbol is necessary to perform Turn/Rebuke Undead.


Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must present your holy symbol to turn undead. Turning is considered an attack.

It is also the spell component known as "Divine Focus. Which is part of virtually every Cleric spell.


Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith. For an evil cleric, the divine focus is an unholy symbol. The default divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of mistletoe or holly. If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Worldly Focus feat from Faiths of Eberron lets you cast spells without a holy symbol, though it has a setting-specific fluff restriction. (Which ought to be easy enough to lift)

If you get enough Cleric in the build, you should be OK with VoP. Between the two, you should have enough magic to compensate for the lost items.

[Invader]

A Holy Symbol is necessary to perform Turn/Rebuke Undead.



It is also the spell component known as "Divine Focus. Which is part of virtually every Cleric spell.

There it is. And I guess a spell component pouch specifically says it doesn't have a divine focus.

Although I maintain that a VoP character could still be a cleric despite the poor wording in the description.

[Thurbane]

As I asked in the FAQ, here's some other options:


A 258

The only direct answer to your question that I know is the Worldly Focus feat (Faiths of Eberron, page 148) and is limited to casting Cleric spells without a holy symbol.

The rest of these aren't actual answers, but rather possible workarounds. You can add a holy symbol to a creature's skin (your skin, if you wish) with Renewal Pact (Spell Compendium, page 173) or shield with Shield of Warding (Spell Compendium, page 188). The feat Mark Of Hleid (Frostburn, page 49) also creates a holy symbol (of Hleid) on your skin. Sacred Tattoo (Races of Faerûn, page 168) gives you a holy symbol tattoo if your patron deity is from the Mulhorandi or Untheric pantheon. Casting Summon Holy Symbol (Complete Champion, page 128) will produce an appropriate symbol for you.

[OracleofWuffing]

The "Other Ramifications of Poverty" section on page 30 of Exalted Deeds says that ascetic spellcasters can sacrifice experience points in place of expensive components (1XP:5GP). I know Holy Symbols aren't usually described as expensive, but aren't expensive components just supposed to be any spell component with a listed price? Besides, it's ridiculously out of the Vow of Poverty user's price range. :smallbiggrin:

That said, I don't know if that's strict rules or just a suggestion offered by the rules. And, yeah, sacrificing 0.2XP for each spell may as well just be free at this point.

[SinsI]

Get yourself the spell "Summon Holy Symbol" from "Complete Champion" (level 0 for clerics).
It creates a small wooden holy symbol that is explicitly not magical or valuable.

[OracleofWuffing]

Sadly, even owning an imitation conterfeit wooden nickel from a country that never even existed would violate the letter of Vow of Poverty. Unless it's a weapon, clothes, food, a spell component pouch, or a bag, it starts in the territory of, "Most people would allow it, but it isn't explicitly allowed by Mr. Bookington."

[HunterOfJello]

What are the rules for holy symbols?

I would try to worship a god of war or bags. Then you could use a weapon or bag as a holy symbol.

~

DM Fiat wise:

Any sane DM should allow a reborn warforged to have their built-in armor be Sanctified as per the rules on Dungeonscape pg 34. If you can put magic enhancements on it, you should be able to etch a holy symbol on it based on the rules that already exist for nonmagical armor.

~

The spell Morality Undone technically has an arcane material component of "a powdered holy symbol". Why would you have such a spell component for an [Evil] spell in your spell component pouch? I do not know. However, it is a material component and therefore falls on the list.

(Nether Trail also has a spell component of a holy symbol and would be a legit component if you can cast 1st level spells. However, it has to be urinated on. I don't think that will be a good thing for most gods and I really don't think saints or warforged even pee.)

[SinsI]

Sadly, even owning an imitation conterfeit wooden nickel from a country that never even existed would violate the letter of Vow of Poverty. Unless it's a weapon, clothes, food, a spell component pouch, or a bag, it starts in the territory of, "Most people would allow it, but it isn't explicitly allowed by Mr. Bookington."
Temporary items don't count towards being owned, as they disappear after the spell ends. Holy symbol created by that spell is fair game.

[Thurbane]

Every time I see the titel of the thread, this is all I can think of:

http://i57.tinypic.com/ermte1.jpg

[OracleofWuffing]

Temporary items don't count towards being owned, as they disappear after the spell ends. Holy symbol created by that spell is fair game.
:smallconfused: The Vow of Poverty and Voluntary Poverty rules don't say anything regarding Temporary items. May I ask where the rule is that temporary items aren't owned? I wonder if you can slide Tanglefoot Bags, Alchemists' Fires, and the like under the same rule.

Trying to track down further related rules, objects summoned by a Conjuration (Summoning) spell- such as Summon Holy Symbol- apparently are not sent back when the spell ends unless the spell description states it (PHB 173), so the holy symbol doesn't disappear. {edit after the thought: Although, if your holy symbol was a creature, then we have a loophole...} :smallconfused: I don't know why it has a duration of round per level if that's the case but... *shrug* Looks like Summon Instrument also had an identical issue, and made it into the Dysfunctional Rules thread here for it.

Regardless, even if you could own it, Vow of Poverty also forbids using any material possessions not on the whitelist. Unless the not-magical, wooden holy symbol is also immaterial, it's still against the terms of the vow to use it to end all evil forever and usher a new glorious age of love and peace.

[SinsI]

Material possession is something made out of, you know, material.
Conjured items are made out of magic, imitating real mater and disappearing once the spell ends.

[Yogibear41]

You have to be pretty dense to say a cleric with the VOP can't have a holy symbol.

[Thurbane]

So, DMM Persisted Summon Holy Symbol?

...or is that not a legal spell for Persist?


You have to be pretty dense to say a cleric with the VOP can't have a holy symbol.

RAW is often dense and far beyond. RAW and RAMS are two very different beasts.

[Yogibear41]

If you are playing in a game, and the DM tells you that your cleric cannot have a holy symbol of his god because he has taken the vow of poverty the DM is a moron, and you should just go ahead and quit the game now before it gets even worse and you waste more of your time. Its the same logic that says wooden clubs are free, but firewood costs money. Why buy firewood, when you can just go to the store and demand they give you thousands of free wooden clubs or that because it costs no money you can materialize them out of thin air by making low DC craft checks, sometimes you just have to use common sense.


But I suppose it you want a silly raw answer, the vow says you can carry enough food to feed yourself for 1 meal. Simply get some sort of very hard bread, and then eat away at the edges until you have successfully formed your half stale piece of bread into your new holy symbol. Or maybe you could take the quarterstaff/club that you are allowed to have, cut a piece of it off, then carve that piece into your new holy symbol.

[Thurbane]

Some people run/play in strictly RAW games - it really doesn't make them worse (or better) DMs/players than those who do not.

...most people, however, play somewhere in between strict RAW and Rules As Intended (or Rules as Make Sense).

[Deophaun]

Temporary items don't count towards being owned, as they disappear after the spell ends. Holy symbol created by that spell is fair game.
People like to focus on the word "own," but ignore the "or use" that comes right after it. This is why people with VoP fall, by RAW, if they open a door or eat from a bowl, and why everyone needs to have a sit down with their DM and modify the Vow so the character can actually function.

[Troacctid]

The restriction is still not that hard to get around since you can just combine a holy symbol with a simple weapon, weave it into your clothing, or otherwise incorporate it into the items you are allowed to own. Per Complete Champion, holy symbols are not restricted to the silver and wooden items in the Player's Handbook:


Clerics, paladins, and most other divine spellcasters require some sort of holy symbol, both for their spellcasting and to use some of their other divine abilities. Two types of holy symbols—wooden and silver—are described in the Player’s Handbook. Neither is more effective than the other.

In truth, many different types of holy symbols exist. Each incorporates the symbol of the deity in some way, but the styles and materials used can vary widely. Symbols of the same god might not be exact duplicates—in fact, different sects of a religion might focus on separate aspects of the same deity, and their symbols might reflect that difference. And finally, divine casters who don’t follow a particular religion tend to have symbols of their own.

The item only needs to have spiritual significance--not material value.


People like to focus on the word "own," but ignore the "or use" that comes right after it. This is why people with VoP fall, by RAW, if they open a door or eat from a bowl, and why everyone needs to have a sit down with their DM and modify the Vow so the character can actually function.
As for this silliness, I can't speak for bowls, but doors are an environmental feature, not a material possession, and one doesn't "use" them so much as "move them out of the way." I mean, unless you're tying a string to the doorknob to dislodge a loose tooth, or pulling a Braum, or something.

[OracleofWuffing]

Regarding how RAW is dense on the matter and how just about any fair DM would rule against RAW... I fully agree, I thought I made it clear that the specific text was absurd.


Material possession is something made out of, you know, material.
Conjured items are made out of magic, imitating real mater and disappearing once the spell ends.
Things summoned by Conjuration (Summoning) are not made out of magic (mind you, the crux of your point relies on the Holy Symbol to be wooden, which is very likely indicates it is material). They exist somewhere else and are brought to you by magic, and in the case of creatures they do not disappear but return to the location from whence they came. I have already pointed out where the PHB states that objects that are summoned through Conjuration (Summoning) do not disappear once the spell ends, if you are away from the books here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) the SRD link, emphasis added:

Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.


But I suppose it you want a silly raw answer, the vow says you can carry enough food to feed yourself for 1 meal. Simply get some sort of very hard bread, and then eat away at the edges until you have successfully formed your half stale piece of bread into your new holy symbol.
This thought came to me, too- an unsalted pretzel holy symbol is silly enough for me. However, Vow of Poverty gives you Sustenance 5 levels in, so after that level, it's kind of unclear: Yes, the food will sustain you for one day still, but you also don't need food to sustain you for one day any more. Plus, Warforgeds don't need to eat, anyways.


The item only needs to have spiritual significance--not material value.
I'm not talking about material value. BoED 48 prevents you from owning/using any material items outside of the whitelist. Though, yes, if you can get it engraved on your clothes or sewn on a walking stick, yes, no argument there.

[Deophaun]

As for this silliness, I can't speak for bowls, but doors are an environmental feature, not a material possession...
Interesting. So if I break down the door to someone's house, I'm not actually damaging their material possessions. Just doing a bit of landscaping. Good to know.

Now, will I get in trouble at Lowes if I cart away an environmental feature to replace a door handle...

Other things we can do.

DM: It's a +5 Vorpal Greatsword. It would be a violation of your VoP to use it.
Player: That's ok. I'm not actually using it. I'm just moving it. Not my fault the enemy's neck is in the way.

[Troacctid]

DM: It's a +5 Vorpal Greatsword. It would be a violation of your VoP to use it.
Player: That's ok. I'm not actually using it. I'm just moving it. Not my fault the enemy's neck is in the way.

Interestingly, you could "just move it", as you're only prohibited from using or owning it. For example, if your friend died, you could carry his ancestral sword back to his family without breaking your vow, as long as you never used it yourself.

Employing it in combat--drawing it, wielding it, and making an attack roll with it--is quite obviously "using" it though. I can't possibly see how you would argue otherwise.

[Deophaun]

Employing it in combat--drawing it, wielding it, and making an attack roll with it--is quite obviously "using" it though. I can't possibly see how you would argue otherwise.
It's simple: Just as you are simply moving a door by opening and closing it, you are simply moving a sword by jabbing it into someone's spinal column. Also, you're not taking cover behind the magical tower shield. You're just moving it down the hallway. The trap at the end shooting arrows at you doesn't enter into it.

Is the blue font really necessary? Yes, opening and closing a door, by RAW, violates the vow. It's only silly because the white list is silly.