what to do with the other hand?

[rrwoods]

I'm starting a campaign soon where I'm going to be playing a Swordsage focusing on Shadow Hand. My level 1 feat is Shadow Blade, so I'm going to want to use short swords and daggers for sure. I most certainly don't want to take two-weapon fighting penalties, and since short swords and daggers are light, I can't Power Attack with them. I don't have room in my feat selection for two-weapon fighting so this fighting style is probably going to continue for the character's career. What in the world do I do with the left hand?

I know that shields are generally bad, but with Power Attacking and two-weapon fighting unavailable, I'm not losing anything* by putting a shield in my left hand, right? Unless there's something else I could be doing.

*other than an armor check penalty, which is annoyingly relevant since at level 1 I can't ready/loose the shield combined with a regular move.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm starting a campaign soon where I'm going to be playing a Swordsage focusing on Shadow Hand. My level 1 feat is Shadow Blade, so I'm going to want to use short swords and daggers for sure. I most certainly don't want to take two-weapon fighting penalties, and since short swords and daggers are light, I can't Power Attack with them. I don't have room in my feat selection for two-weapon fighting so this fighting style is probably going to continue for the character's career. What in the world do I do with the left hand?

I know that shields are generally bad, but with Power Attacking and two-weapon fighting unavailable, I'm not losing anything* by putting a shield in my left hand, right? Unless there's something else I could be doing.

*other than an armor check penalty, which is annoyingly relevant since at level 1 I can't ready/loose the shield combined with a regular move.

Ya if it doesnt cost you anything grab a shield, better than just having an empty hand

[Greenish]

Note that the shield's ACP applies to attack rolls and all Dex or Str or derived skill checks. At level 2 you get the swordsage AC bonus (Wis to AC), which doesn't work if you use shield.

[Blackhawk748]

Note that the shield's ACP applies to attack rolls and all Dex or Str or derived skill checks. At level 2 you get the swordsage AC bonus (Wis to AC), which doesn't work if you use shield.

Huh, forgot Swordsages arent proficient with shields, so... wield a torch? Have a Bludgeoning weapon in your off hand? Carry a tanglefoot bag at all times?

Basically just have our backup weapon in your offhand at all times

[Deophaun]

Your spare hand is where you put a weapon with utility enhancements (such as Warning, Eager, Defending). Heck, you put a Martial Discipline weapon there for a +1-3 to attack/damage for all your attacks (the bonus from a Discipline weapon does not limit itself only to attacks you make with the weapon).

[DeltaEmil]

Swordsages are not proficient with shields, so unless you invest a feat to become proficient with them, it's really not a good idea at all to wear one.

I will guess that you're not going to play a human or strongheart halfling if you only have 1 feat at level 1. That, or you've also taken Weapon Finesse to gain the bonus to attack rolls.

Generally, I would advise you to hold something else in your other hand in that case, like for example a readied potion, an oil, a tanglefoot bag, a torch, or a weapon with another damage type (although the only weapon type to deal bludgeoning damage and be associated with the Shadow Hand school is the unarmed strike, which needs another feat to not provoke attacks of opportunity with it). Some kind of item pre-drawn so that you then won't have to waste a move action to draw it during combat.

[Zaq]

Your spare hand is where you put a weapon with utility enhancements (such as Warning, Eager, Defending). Heck, you put a Martial Discipline weapon there for a +1-3 to attack/damage for all your attacks (the bonus from a Discipline weapon does not limit itself only to attacks you make with the weapon).

Yeah, this. At low levels, you're kinda out of luck, but once you can afford a secondary weapon with cool utility/defensive enchantments on it, that's useful to have.

Or I guess you can just keep the hand free. Depending on how much of a stickler your GM is for that sort of thing, you never know when you'll need to manipulate an item, grab and drink a potion, hold on to something, throw a switch, hold a lantern, or whatever, all while still fighting. (Most GMs I've played under are pretty easygoing about that, but you never know when your GM might decide that you actually need a free hand to do all the crazy things adventurers usually try to do with their hands full.)

Of course, you can always spend a feat on a spiked chain, which is a Shadow Hand weapon. That'll give your hands something to do.

[rrwoods]

...Right, proficiencies. Well then.

No, I'm not human, I'm whisper gnome, for the ability scores and the scouting/stealth skill bonuses (and silence!).

Note that I'm not actually worried about my AC, really (+1 size +4 Dex +4 armor), I just wanted something to do with the free hand. Putting a dagger there seems fine for now, since in a pinch I can throw it.

[Marlowe]

Just grab a Darkwood shield or similar as soon as you can. Proficiency only matters if there's an ACP, so masterwork/darkwood/mithral bucklers and Darkwood shields are fair game.

If worse comes to worse, remember somebody might want to keep a free hand, and it might as well be you. I've been in lot of groups where everyone turned up with two-handed weapons or bows/crossbows and then we had some awkward moments when we hit a dark place and realized nobody had a free hand to hold the lantern.

I've actually given up using anything heavier than a longsword recently because of this.

[Deophaun]

Just grab a Darkwood shield or similar as soon as you can. Proficiency only matters if there's an ACP, so masterwork/darkwood/mithral bucklers and Darkwood shields are fair game.
It does matter for swordsages, monks, battledancers and the like, as their AC bonus is lost when using a shield, period. Doesn't matter if there's an ACP or not.

If worse comes to worse, remember somebody might want to keep a free hand, and it might as well be you. I've been in lot of groups where everyone turned up with two-handed weapons or bows/crossbows and then we had some awkward moments when we hit a dark place and realized nobody had a free hand to hold the lantern.
Then you do what I do: pay to have continual flame cast on my weapon (pay the premium for the Cleric version). Now your weapon is your lantern, and you never need fear a darkness spell.

Granted, it's terrible if you're trying to stealth, but generally the THF guy doesn't bother with that anyway.

[DeltaEmil]

Just grab a Darkwood shield or similar as soon as you can. Proficiency only matters if there's an ACP, so masterwork/darkwood/mithral bucklers and Darkwood shields are fair game.

If worse comes to worse, remember somebody might want to keep a free hand, and it might as well be you. I've been in lot of groups where everyone turned up with two-handed weapons or bows/crossbows and then we had some awkward moments when we hit a dark place and realized nobody had a free hand to hold the lantern.

I've actually given up using anything heavier than a longsword recently because of this.I'm sure you can hold most types of two-handed weapons and bows/crossbows with one hand, as long as you're not using them as intended. Once a fight starts, you drop the torch/lantern/whatever, and start wielding your weapon properly in both hands.

[Marlowe]

If you think randomly dropping torches and lanterns full with imflammable oil in the middle of a fight is a good idea, you've ever met most of my DMs.:smallbiggrin:

[DeltaEmil]

Then just throw it to deal 1d3 points of fire damage on the enemy. :smallamused:

Or ignore it, because it's really just 1d3 fire damage, which your persisted mass lesser vigor will deal with anyway, if you aren't immune to that paltry amount of fire damage in the first place.

[Rubik]

Personally, I'd use it to draw and throw alchemical items. There's a (masterwork) potions belt that allows you to draw potions and other similar items as a free action. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 60 gp.

[Marlowe]

@Delta

Dude. You've just thrown away your light source. In a dark area. In the middle of a fight. Against enemies that seem to have darkvision an actual majority of the time. Fate is tempted. DMs are generally not so nice as fate.

In any event, the lantern/torch example is just the obvious one. PCs are not heavy infantry walking across a flat field swinging battleaxes left and right. PCs are more like elite skirmishers who have to deal with all sorts of bizarre tactical situations and terrain while crawling through demon-haunted sewers, clambering through basements, creeping across roofs and have to be ready to fight while doing so. Having a free hand is often a help.

Nobody says you can't 2-hand your longsword in those situations where you can.

[Rubik]

Forget using a regular torch. Liquid daylight costs 10 gp. It's marked as a way to deal with foes with light sensitivity. You're supposed to throw it to get this effect. But get this: it glows like a torch. Not as part of its intended effect, but just, y'know, generally. So carry one of those in your hand. Or put a ball of it on a chain around your neck so you can dump it in your shirt when necessary, and you'll keep your spare hand free for alchemical shenanigans.

[Marlowe]

Generally, I like using an everburning torch tied to a rope. Throw it before the party (Everburning torches don't go out and don't ignite anything) and pull it in as you go. Illuminates where you choose to throw it rather than yourself, and might even set off some traps at a distance. I'm all in favour of having smelly stuff to throw around as well.

[Izmister]

You can get the Einhander feat from PH2. Requires tumble 6 ranks and +6 attack bonus. Its a tactical feat that gives you three maneuvers to use when fighting with a free hand. "Narrow Profile" +2 ac when fighting defensively; "off hand balance" after you successfully strike an enemy you get +2 tumble until the start of your next turn; and "off hand swap" this is a bit tricky to understand, when you full round attack an enemy and hit at least twice you can then perform a feint using sleight of hand instead of bluff, but be warned once used on an enemy you cant use this maneuver on that same enemy again. Personally I don't like it that much, but it might be just what you're looking for.

[Rubik]

According to Savage Species, any masterwork weapon can be made to accommodate more hands to wield it at no extra charge. This includes, say, Large (or in your case, Medium) gauntlets. So when you get a chance, buy a masterwork (or magical) gauntlet designed for two hands, then Captain Kirk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAgqJF7oHg0&feature=player_detailpage#t=20) your enemies* into submission.

Wear a regular gauntlet on one hand and a double-gauntlet on the other, then you can single-wield and two-hand when needed.




* You may also Captain Kirk your lovers, which is a different thing altogether.†


† Confusing the two maneuvers may lead to some swelling, intense sweating, and general discomfort, and may not be suitable for everyone.‡


‡ Your lovers' results may vary.§


§ Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Greenish]

You can get the Einhander feat from PH2.But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

[rrwoods]

Heck, you put a Martial Discipline weapon there for a +1-3 to attack/damage for all your attacks (the bonus from a Discipline weapon does not limit itself only to attacks you make with the weapon).

Nothing to damage, but not a bad idea anyhow. I'll have to run it by my DM though; not sure he's going to let that fly. A not-too-loose reading of how enhancement bonuses themselves work would suggest that putting a +1 dagger in my offhand gives +1 to attack/damage in my main hand ("Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat." -- what does "used" mean?) which is "obviously" not the case.

Regardless, I actually didn't know about Martial Discipline weapons before now, so cheers :-)

[Darrin]

Use the optional weapon familiarity rules in Complete Warrior to switch your proficiency with gnome hooked hammer to gnome tortoise blade. Put that in your off hand for a +1 shield bonus. (Unfortunately, it also covers your hand, so it can't grip or manipulate objects).

[TheCrowing1432]

Sounds like splash weapons, torches, and other miscellaneous things would probably be your best bet.

[Deophaun]

A not-too-loose reading of how enhancement bonuses themselves work would suggest that putting a +1 dagger in my offhand gives +1 to attack/damage in my main hand ("Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat." -- what does "used" mean?) which is "obviously" not the case.
Actually, that's incorrect, as enhancement bonuses are applied to the weapon, not the character, which you can find repeated throughout the rules:

Identical types of bonuses do not stack, so a +3 longsword (+3 enhancement bonus for a +3 to attack, +3 to damage) would not be affected by a magic weapon spell that grants a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls.

Enhancement: An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the strength or effectiveness of a character’s armor or weapon, as with the magic vestment and magic weapon spells, or a general bonus to an ability score, such as with the cat’s grace spell.

enhancement bonus: A bonus that represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score.

[Greenish]

A whip or net might also be an option. Use whip to trip enemies from 15' away without risking AoO, and if you fail and have to drop it, no big deal. Use net to entangle enemies. You're not proficient with them, but that doesn't matter much since you're making touch attacks.

[rrwoods]

Actually, that's incorrect, as enhancement bonuses are applied to the weapon, not the character, which you can find repeated throughout the rules:

Didn't think to check the section that talked about the bonus types, or the glossary. I just looked in the magic weapons section. Anywho, thanks.


A whip or net might also be an option. Use whip to trip enemies from 15' away without risking AoO, and if you fail and have to drop it, no big deal. Use net to entangle enemies. You're not proficient with them, but that doesn't matter much since you're making touch attacks.

Not sure I like this option too much since I'm small (whisper gnome).


Use the optional weapon familiarity rules in Complete Warrior to switch your proficiency with gnome hooked hammer to gnome tortoise blade. Put that in your off hand for a +1 shield bonus. (Unfortunately, it also covers your hand, so it can't grip or manipulate objects).

Interesting. Especially juicy if I can get the DM to rule that since the blade is "dagger-like", discipline focus (weapon focus, shadow hand) applies to it. Still not sure I want the armor check penalty, but it is very small.

[Greenish]

Net is still pretty handy against medium or smaller creatures.