WizLock ideas plz critique

[Myzz]

So I've seen lots of discussion on SorcLocks, which makes sense since they both use Charisma. What about a WizLock tho?

I did a little self analysis over options. The point of this combo is single target blasting power utilizing cantrips, specifically maximizing Eldritch Blast to do just that. (is this a bad idea?) So the design of the build is to get Warlock 2 and Wizard 10. Edlritch Blast + Agonizing Blast (cha mod to dmg) + Empowered Evocation (int mod to dmg). AND yes EB is an evocation cantrip. Since EB is a cantrip, I'm assuming it scales with total character level NOT warlock class level. I'm also assuming point buy for stats, harder if limited to standard array to get points where you need them.

Str (8), Dex (12), Con (10), Int (15), Wis (11), Cha (15)

Point break down = 0+4+2+9+3+9=27


Mountain Dwarf: Con+2 not useless but not optimal, Str +2 only NOT useless in that you can dump Str and not end having a neg. Poison Resistance, and the BIGGIE, Proficiency with Light and Medium Armor.

Tiefling: +2 Cha lock stat, +1 Int Wiz stat, Fire Resist very nice, and Daily spells also nice.

Drow: +2 Dex not useless can drop dex a bit and still get a pos mod for AC and init, +1 Cha lock stat so a boost is nice. Daily spells including Darkness which you might have Devils sight for.

Wood Elf: +2 Dex not useless can drop dex a bit and still get a pos mod for AC and init, +1 Wis slight bump for skills, +move speed is nice to stay at range, ability to hide while only lightly obscured by natural phenom.

Lightfoot Halfling: +2 Dex not useless can drop dex a bit and still get a pos mod for AC and init, +1 Cha lock stat so a boost is nice, ability to hide behind Med creatures is nice, but hit to movement is bad.

From my Racial Prefs, you can see I want to go Mountain Dwarf

Str (10) +0, Dex (12) +1, Con (12) +1, Int (15) +2, Wis (11) +0, Cha (15) +2

Stats NOT super to start but decent

As a mountain dwarf level up as a Wiz to level 1,2, or 3 your choice eventually going Evoker. This gives you Int and Wis saves (vice the Wis and Cha of a lock) and you start with your familiar as well as your spell book so can start adding spells you find to it from day 1.

If starting as a diff race then go lock for leather armor, level up to level 2 lock then switch.

So Im going Mountain Dwarf Wizard to level 2 with Sage Background choosing Power for ideal (Knowledge is the path to power and domination) and bond that gives ancient text with terrible secrets (contacting your patron).

Cantrips = Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp, Minor Illusion (or Prestidigitation)
Starting Spells = Shield, Magic Missile, Detect Magic(rit), Find Familiar(rit), Identify(rit), Comp Languages (rit)
at L2 grab Chromatic Orb (evoc), and Burning Hands (evoc), if your DM is mean like me and makes you pay for em theier half price that way.

At EL (total Effective character Level) 3 start as a Lock and Choose Patron

Fiend: Temp Hp when kill creatures (kind of minor due to not many total lock levels, depend on how DM uses Temp HP from here and Armor of Agathys, if they 'stack' this is the winner. Get access to cleric Spell Command. At level 6 if go that high get d10 adder to 1 ability check or saving throw per short rest

Archfey: 1 AoE 10' cube Charm or Fear (your choice) per short rest. Druid SPell Faierie Fire and Cleric SPell Calm Emotions. At level 6 you get 1 Misty escape per short rest. Next best, best option if temp HP dont stack.

Great Old One: 30' telepathic comm w/creature in sight. Gain bard spell dissonant whispers. At level 6 Entropic Ward per short rest. Good RP value.

Not going past level 6 Warlock, because we want Overchannel the level 14 Evocation Ability.

2 levels of warlock to get our invocations. Then a choice... get level 3 lock now, or later. IMO depends on how early you need those +2's in stats to be +3's. If those 3's are vital then go back to Wizard to level 4 and ASI, grab +1 in Int and +1 Cha to get to 16 in each and +3's in each. If you want Pact boon now...

Pact of the Tome: +3 Cantrips from any Caster List. 2 level 1 Ritual spells from any Caster List. Change second invocation to Book of Secrets and can now add ANY Ritual in the game to it.

Pact of the Chain: allows instant access to familiar upgrade, but thats really it.

Pact of the Blade: not even worth mention since purpose = blast all day with EB

I'd go back to Wiz at Lock 2 and get to level 4 Wiz for ASI. Then back to Lock for 3.

Cantrips for Book of Ancient Secrets = Spare the Dying, Guidance, and either Thorn Whip or Viscious Mockery your choice.

At level 13 is where this build falls in line with:
3 EB each doing 1d10 + Cha Mod + Int Mod = 8-17 dmg per
same target = 24-51
with Hex up = 27-69

2 lock spell slots at level 2. Wiz slots: 4 L1, 3 L3, 3 L3, 3 L4, 2 L5
with 10 cantrips: 2 Lock + 3 Tome + 5 Wiz
sculpt spells, empowered evocation, and arcane recovery
4 spells prepped via warlock and 13 - 14 wiz spells prepped = 17-18 prep'd


Pure Wiz at level 13
5 cantrips
4/3/3/3/2/1/1
17-18 spells prepp'd


so miss out on 1 level 6 and 1 level 7 spell slot with WizLock at level 13
never get spell mastery or signature spells

Comments?

[Mandragola]

It would be great if you were right, but empowered evocation very clearly works on "wizard evocations" only. Eldritch blast may be an evocation, but it's not on the wizard spell list so I can't see how you could count it as a wizard evocation. If this worked you could go wizard 10, warlock 2, cleric of light/knowledge 8, and add Cha+int+wis to all your eldritch blasts. But it doesn't work, because both the wizard and cleric features specify that they only work with wizard and cleric cantrips - and eldritch blast isn't one.

Interesting analysis otherwise. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[hecetv]

EDIT: well as the guy above me pointed out this doesn't really work by raw anyway.

I'm not super great at optimization but starting with 2 15s in charisma and int means you won't really max out this built until....... Well maybe never. You need to get 5 stat ups to hit 20 int and con, and by 20 that will be some badass blasting but is it worth it?

I think you want to max out your stats ASAP, so if possible I'd take tiefling or variant human and pick a feat that gives +1 int or cha so you can start with 17 and 16, therefore needing only 4 feats to max.... Well.... Maybe that's not better. Hmmm. But by 12 when you have everything you need you can at least have 20/17 or 20/16 with a feat that gives a +1 with your two stat ups, which will be......... +5+3=+8 instead of the dwarf, which will have a max of 16/18 for +4+3=+7..... Meh maybe it doesn't matter.

But at least with a race (species?) needing only four stat ups to max charisma and intelligence, you can go lock 2 wiz 18 (or 3/17 and get a dope familiar), whereas otherwise you need lock 4 wiz 16 to max your relevant stats............ And thus never get 9th level spells.

But it's only it you're really going to 20, or whatever. Or it doesn't really matter because empowered only adding +4 to each and not +5 is still fly..................

And anyway the goals of your build are different but just throwing my two cents in....

[Felvion]

You have your points but my opinion is that multiclassing two full casting classes is always worse than desired. I mean, seriously? You'd give up one spell level for more damage on cantrips? it's irrational. Even if single target damage is your build's focus i'm sure there are better ways to achieve such numbers while staying single-class.
The best argument for the above is that it's always hard to decide when to make the dip.
Let's take a wizard for example, which spell level would he postpone to make the dip? There would always be some higher level spells offering much more to his goals than the dip itself.
Level 3? No, because of fireball.
Level 4? No, because of grater invisibility.
Level 5? So many reasons for no!
It's getting pointless the higher levels and personally, i like the 18-20 wizard abilities a lot to pass them.
One could claim the same above arguments for a warlock too.
I can see that making a character is a matter of taste, not power and i completely agree with this but if optimisation os the goal i see no benefits for making such a multiclass.

PS: By RAW the temporary hit points don't stack. In case your dm says they do, abuse it. Go straight bladelock till 9 and champion after that. Fiend's level 1 ability can make armor of agathys almost endless and if you convince a party member pick inspiring leader you are the temp hp king.
But yeah, sadly, they don't stack...

[Myzz]

not sure how I missed that its wizard only evocation...

On the knowledge Cleric, it seems odd that the wording is "add your wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with ANY cleric cantrip"... theres only the one right? Sacred Flame?

[I realize this next part is NOT RAW, and not even even sure if its RAI]

Potent Spellcasting (knowledge Cleric) implies that either:
1. There are supposed to be more damaging cleric cantrips.
or
2. That it applies to any damaging cantrip you cast as a Knowledge Cleric.


Empowered Evocation (Evocation Wiz) says any wizard evocation spell you cast, which implies:
3. Only evocation spells off your wizard list
or
4. Any evocation spell you cast using your wizard slots

I think the RAW understanding for Emp Evocation would be #1.

looking at both, I think it would be reasonable to apply the following to Emp Evocation:
5. Any Evocation spell you cast as an Evocation Wizard...

My new question is:
Does ruling in favor of 2 for Potent Spell Casting and 5 for Empowered Evocation give too much? Is it unbalancing? Keeping in mind that Potent Spell Casting is level 8 Knowledge Cleric and Empowered Evocation is level 10 Evocation Wizard?

Comparing Emp Evoc vs Split Enchantment of same level for Enchanters... allows doubling of all enchantment spells that only target one creature. Or a conjurer's aability to not have concentration broken from damage at L10... Inured Death is fantastic... It seems that Emp Evoc as ruled by 3 seems very minor at that level compared to other wizard school abilities. You could argue I only picked the best ones... but Improved Abjuration is quite good at that level (+4 bonus to those checks, which seems huge in bounded accuracy system), The Third Eye is decent, Illusory Self is awesome, I personally love Shapechanger... But I dont think those abilities compare well to Empowered Evocation, and the argument that they are weaker is probably more a function that the schools are weaker (which I don't necessarily believe, Transmuter being my personal fav).

AND

How many wizard evocation spells actually cast multiple items so that the +mod dmg becomes relavent? Is magic Missile really it? I suppose the AoE spells that add it as a flat bonus gets applied to multiple targets so... But most of those are saved based? so your most likely only adding half mod most of the time? (in the campaign I'm playing in and the one I'm running, that seems to be the case so far)

[Giant2005]

You really don't need to fudge the rules like that.
By the time you get enough ASIs to make it really worth it, you will have a bucketload of spellslots to cast Scorching Ray with. By going Sorc/Wiz you can add both Cha and Int to Scorching Ray and do a lot more damage than you could as a Warlock/Wiz. Plus it has the whole rules legal thing going for it.

[Myzz]

You really don't need to fudge the rules like that.
By the time you get enough ASIs to make it really worth it, you will have a bucketload of spellslots to cast Scorching Ray with. By going Sorc/Wiz you can add both Cha and Int to Scorching Ray and do a lot more damage than you could as a Warlock/Wiz. Plus it has the whole rules legal thing going for it.

thats kind of my point... I see how the RAW is against it. BUT I'm not sure it should be. Partially for the reason you just pointed out and partially because its so deep into the class level that it seems meh to rule out evocation spells that are normally wizard only. To me it would seem an Evocation Wizard would be good at ALL the evocation spells he casts having a greater understanding of Evocation Spells in general that surpasses mere wizarding understanding of said spell type, regardless of who normally casts that spell. It could be argued that since the Wizlock most likely casts EB more than any other single spell, that he would be the most familiar with that particular evocation spell over all others...

I also realize that I can do whatever in the games I run, I'm looking for solid reasons NOT to run Empowered Evocation in that fashion (and Potent Spellcasting by proxy)...

[CrusaderJoe]

You really don't need to fudge the rules like that.
By the time you get enough ASIs to make it really worth it, you will have a bucketload of spellslots to cast Scorching Ray with. By going Sorc/Wiz you can add both Cha and Int to Scorching Ray and do a lot more damage than you could as a Warlock/Wiz. Plus it has the whole rules legal thing going for it.

This is what I was going to suggest if you want to deal damage. Make sure to have Elemental Adept.

10 rays (level 9 slot...)

2d6 + Cha + Int/ Ray.

Have a friendly cleric cast Hold Monster... Walk up within 5' of the creature (critical hit) you also have advantage and don't take disadvantage cause the creature is incapacitated.

Critical Hit, it does say ANY attack roll. And critical hits don't specify weapons.


4d6 (14) + 10 = 24 damage per ray * 10 = 240 damage on average.

Min: 140
Median: 240
Max: 340


Edit: Attack, not attack roll. Paralyzation doesn't say attack roll only that you need to attack within 5 feet of the creature.

As per Crawford, a critical hit is a hit... You don't even need to roll an attack roll! You auto hit.