Help for a "Spy" Character Build

[wkwkwkwk1]

Hey,
Everyone!

I'm creating a "spy" kind of character, and I would like your help

My current build plan for 20 levels would be something like:
[Rogue 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1] or [Rogue 3] / Wizard 2-3 / Unseen Seer 2 / Divine Oracle 2-4 / Arcane Trickster 1-10(?) / Something Else X

Now, my big questions (for now):
What schools of magic should I specialize in / ban?

I'd say that I must keep Divination and Illusion. Transmutation is necessary for AT. Evocation would be nice for Contingency, but otherwise not much use. Necromancy would be pretty useless. Abjuration would be pretty nice, almost necessary. Finally, Conjuration is pretty much a must have (for teleportation at the very least).

My current ideas are:
Specialize in Illusion or Conjuration and ban Necromancy and Evocation/Enchantment
Specialize in Divination and ban Necromancy

What do you think? Also, what are your thoughts on the prestige classes and general class progression?

Note: It doesn't have to be "optimized" (read: Munchkinized)

[Karl Aegis]

What do you mean by "spy"? What does a "spy" have for traits? By adding the quotation marks around the word you confuse the reader of your actual meaning.

For a spy, you'd want Psion (Telepath) levels, picking up the telepathy ACF from The Mind's Eye and picking up Piscrystal Affinity and Mindsight.

[Hiro Quester]

Or at least something with charisma focus. Charming and manipulative. Bard?

[Kaje]

Or Changeling Rogue 4 / Marshal 1 / Spymaster 5 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5.

[Jack_Simth]

Hey,
Everyone!

I'm creating a "spy" kind of character, and I would like your help

My current build plan for 20 levels would be something like:
[Rogue 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1] or [Rogue 3] / Wizard 2-3 / Unseen Seer 2 / Divine Oracle 2-4 / Arcane Trickster 1-10(?) / Something Else X

Now, my big questions (for now):
What schools of magic should I specialize in / ban?

I'd say that I must keep Divination and Illusion. Transmutation is necessary for AT. Evocation would be nice for Contingency, but otherwise not much use. Necromancy would be pretty useless. Abjuration would be pretty nice, almost necessary. Finally, Conjuration is pretty much a must have (for teleportation at the very least).

My current ideas are:
Specialize in Illusion or Conjuration and ban Necromancy and Evocation/Enchantment
Specialize in Divination and ban Necromancy

What do you think? Also, what are your thoughts on the prestige classes and general class progression?

Note: It doesn't have to be "optimized" (read: Munchkinized)

There are a very large number of ways to go about it.

For a nearly full-caster Wizard build, there's
Rogue-1/Wizard-4/Unseen Seer-2/Arcane Trickster-10/Unseen Seer+3
Take Practiced Spellcaster and Able Learner: you lose only a single caster level. Meanwhile, you've got +8d6 sneak attack, and only four levels that are not at least 6+Int skill points.

A straightforward Beguiler-20 will do the job just fine (a list caster, int-based, 6+Int/level skill points, trapfinding).

You could go Bard-5/Chameleon-10/Unseen Seer-5 (advancing Chameleon casting so you end up with a caster level of 29 for most spells and 31 for divinations). Pretend to be almost anyone or anything with a bit of work.

A Cloistered Cleric-20 could also do quite well, with the right domains and feats to get the class skills.

You may need to be a bit more specific. What "spy stuff" do you want to do effectively, and how long are you willing to wait for such things to come online?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going to get sneak attack with an arcane caster, use Sorcerer. Spells that make multiple attacks only deal sneak attack damage on the first attack, unless they take a full-round action to cast according to Rules Compendium's section on precision damage. That means a Sorcerer using Invisible Spell and/or Split Ray with a spell like Scorching Ray will deal sneak attack damage with every attack it makes. Use the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick to add tons of versatility, make it an elvencraft composite longbow and put three wand chambers in it as well.

If you're using Wizard, a single level of Spellthief allows you to use wands of any spells they would get access to (abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation), even if you pick those as prohibited schools for Wizard. You can also get Master Spellthief to be able to cast in light armor, if that's what you're into. A single level of Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) will give you the option of taking psionic feats like Speed of Thought and Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought), as well as enabling you to use Dorjes (psionic wands) of any power on their class power list.

[atemu1234]

If you're going to get sneak attack with an arcane caster, use Sorcerer. Spells that make multiple attacks only deal sneak attack damage on the first attack, unless they take a full-round action to cast according to Rules Compendium's section on precision damage. That means a Sorcerer using Invisible Spell and/or Split Ray with a spell like Scorching Ray will deal sneak attack damage with every attack it makes. Use the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick to add tons of versatility, make it an elvencraft composite longbow and put three wand chambers in it as well.

If you're using Wizard, a single level of Spellthief allows you to use wands of any spells they would get access to (abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation), even if you pick those as prohibited schools for Wizard. You can also get Master Spellthief to be able to cast in light armor, if that's what you're into. A single level of Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) will give you the option of taking psionic feats like Speed of Thought and Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought), as well as enabling you to use Dorjes (psionic wands) of any power on their class power list.

Or you could run a naturally psionic race to get into Rogue / Psibond Agent.

[Deox]

Or Changeling Rogue 4 / Marshal 1 / Spymaster 5 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5.

When I read "spy", I also instantly thought of Spymaster.

One hilarious option is the Silver Key PrC (Dragonmarked). Being able to play Scooby-Doo musical doors (including magical ones) never ceases to amaze and frustrate.

There's also the Thief of Life (FoE) that can extend your lifespan after dealing a fatal sneak attack. Infiltrate for centuries or longer!

Also, look into the Luck line of feats (Complete Scoundrel); I always felt those mesh well with a spy character.

[enderlord99]

Rogue 20 works well enough, doesn't it?

[Deox]

Rogue 20 works well enough, doesn't it?

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[wkwkwkwk1]

Ok, I probably shouldn't have written this as tired as I was, and should have given a little more information :smalltongue:

This "spy" character would be a Human, probably True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral, shifting allegiances as he sees fit. He is an infiltrator, a spy, a man who works for whoever asks him (within certain limits), gathers infromation, preferably unseen (the sneak attacks would be for the few moments where he need to, say, kill a guard), using his spells to remain undetected. He can also work as a diplomat (maxed out Diplomacy and Bluff), maybe work as a mole.

Thanks for the suggestion, but bard wouldn't be suitable enough, his main focus isn't talking, and bard spells don't give him enough versatility (namely for teleportation, among others).

Psion doesn't really make my idea of this spy, sorry, though it may be a nice idea for the future, thanks!

Jack_Smith: Probably the best suggestion given what I'm looking for, thanks a lot! The only issue I see is that I'd like to get Evasion, from Rogue 2 or Divine Oracle 2 and maybe Uncanny Dodge, from either Rogue 4 or Divine Oracle 4, probably Divine oracle is the best choice, since it keeps the spellcaster level up.

Is this clearer? :smallsmile:

EDIT: What about the chosen/barred schools? I may take a level of spellthief, but still :smalltongue:

[Gwachitallemall]

Ok, I probably shouldn't have written this as tired as I was, and should have given a little more information :smalltongue:

This "spy" character would be a Human, probably True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral, shifting allegiances as he sees fit. He is an infiltrator, a spy, a man who works for whoever asks him (within certain limits), gathers infromation, preferably unseen (the sneak attacks would be for the few moments where he need to, say, kill a guard), using his spells to remain undetected. He can also work as a diplomat (maxed out Diplomacy and Bluff), maybe work as a mole.

Thanks for the suggestion, but bard wouldn't be suitable enough, his main focus isn't talking, and bard spells don't give him enough versatility (namely for teleportation, among others).

Psion doesn't really make my idea of this spy, sorry, though it may be a nice idea for the future, thanks!

Jack_Smith: Probably the best suggestion given what I'm looking for, thanks a lot! The only issue I see is that I'd like to get Evasion, from Rogue 2 or Divine Oracle 2 and maybe Uncanny Dodge, from either Rogue 4 or Divine Oracle 4, probably Divine oracle is the best choice, since it keeps the spellcaster level up.

Is this clearer? :smallsmile:

EDIT: What about the chosen/barred schools? I may take a level of spellthief, but still :smalltongue:

I'd say, go domain wizard, don't ban any schools, pick up divination as your domain. Also pick up the reserve feat, magic sensitive. So, with Unseen seer maxed out, and those two items, at 20 you have about a CL 24 on certain divination spells.

[wkwkwkwk1]

I'd say, go domain wizard, don't ban any schools, pick up divination as your domain. Also pick up the reserve feat, magic sensitive. So, with Unseen seer maxed out, and those two items, at 20 you have about a CL 24 on certain divination spells.

Yeah, but... Domain Wizard is pretty cheesy :smalltongue:

[Gwachitallemall]

Yeah, but... Domain Wizard is pretty cheesy :smalltongue:

Only if you take the domains that make it so. You give up a lot of the opportunities you have with Specialist wizards (Although as a Divination specialist wizard, you only need to ban 1 school unless you're focused specialist), and instead get 9 spells added to your spell list, and slots so you can always cast them. Fair trade, doesn't seem too cheesy.

[wkwkwkwk1]

Only if you take the domains that make it so. You give up a lot of the opportunities you have with Specialist wizards (Although as a Divination specialist wizard, you only need to ban 1 school unless you're focused specialist), and instead get 9 spells added to your spell list, and slots so you can always cast them. Fair trade, doesn't seem too cheesy.

Wait a second, what opportunities do you get with specialist that you don't as a DW (except choosing which extra spells you prepare, and as a specialist you are still limited)? Perhaps entry for prestige classes, which in this case isn't an issue. So, you get extra spells, and don't need to ban any schools... isn't this cheesy? I mean, even the GOD Wizard Guide marks it as cheesy!



Domain Wizard (UA Variant): If your DM is stupid enough to allow this - always take it. The best is either the Conjuration or Transmutation domains (big surprise) that contain almost without exception solid spells. Domain wizard basically will give you the benefit of specialization (1 extra casting per level of spell) without the drawback (no lost schools), oh yeah - you also cast your Domain spells at +1 level and you get to add them to your spell book for free. You are not limited in the number of times you can memorize your domain spells. So basically it is in every way superior to a generalist, and in most ways superior to a specialist. Your DM won't allow this unless he's a moron. If you don't take it when it's allowed - then you're the moron.

[Gwachitallemall]

Wait a second, what opportunities do you get with specialist that you don't as a DW (except choosing which extra spells you prepare, and as a specialist you are still limited)? Perhaps entry for prestige classes, which in this case isn't an issue. So, you get extra spells, and don't need to ban any schools... isn't this cheesy? I mean, even the GOD Wizard Guide marks it as cheesy!

Immediate Magic, Specialist only feats, specialist only features. (Complete Mage, PHB2, and some in Unearthed Arcana?)

I'm DMing with a Domain Wizard in my party, and I haven't seen any problems. Yes, it's bonus spells, but Generalist unless you're elven generalist doesn't get anything else, besides not banning schools.

It's an okay option, but YMMV.

[wkwkwkwk1]

Immediate Magic, Specialist only feats, specialist only features. (Complete Mage, PHB2, and some in Unearthed Arcana?)

I'm DMing with a Domain Wizard in my party, and I haven't seen any problems. Yes, it's bonus spells, but Generalist unless you're elven generalist doesn't get anything else, besides not banning schools.

It's an okay option, but YMMV.

The issue is exactly not having to ban schools :smallsmile:

I guess specialists have a few extra options, ok. Still, from an optimization/munchkinization standpoint, I'd rather play a Domain Wizard than a specialist and, either way, it relies too much on DM's approval. Thanks for the suggestion all the same :smallsmile:

[Karl Aegis]

You're already going out of your way to get the Oracle Domain from Divine Oracle. Whats the matter with taking another domain? You could just as easily get Uncanny Dodge from Wizard 5 taking the Domain Power ACF for the Fate Domain.

[wkwkwkwk1]

You're already going out of your way to get the Oracle Domain from Divine Oracle. Whats the matter with taking another domain? You could just as easily get Uncanny Dodge from Wizard 5 taking the Domain Power ACF for the Fate Domain.

The matter with taking another domain is that I get extra spells without having to ban any school, which I see as pretty cheesy.

Now, for the Domain Power... that would be pretty nice, thanks for the suggestion!