Highest possible crit range

[Genesic]

Can't find the explanation anywhere. I know its something like Disciple of Dispatch, Kaori Resin Kurien and improved critical. Can someone post a quick explanation?

[Greenish]

Disciple of Dispater (3.0 PrC from BoVD) triples critical threat range of any wielded iron or steel weapon and stacks with Imp. Critical (as Keen weapon enhancement and Imp. Critical stacked in 3.0) for quadrupling the weapon's threat range, so a 18-20 weapon like kukri becomes 9-20. Whether the combination is legal in 3.5 has been a subject of discussion.

Kaorti resin is neither iron nor steel, and so isn't relevant.

[Darrin]

Stump Knife (A&EG) has a 17-20 crit range when you attack someone who's already been wounded by it. Combine with Disciple of Dispater or Psionic Weapon Master + Improved Critical to get... I'm not sure what, 11-20 crit range?

[Doctor Awkward]

Generally you start with a scimitar. Normal threat range is 18-20

8 levels in Disciple of Dispater gets you Iron Power +2, which triples the threat range of any iron or steel weapon you wield. The threat range is now 15-20.

It explicitly does not stack with the Keen property. It does, however, explicitly stack with the Improved Critical Feat, which by D&D multiplication rules, quadruples the threat range of your weapon. So it would now be 9-20.

As far as the legality goes, Book of Vile Darkness is a 3.0 book, and as far as I know, was never given an update so is by RAW legal in 3.5 games, subject to DM approval.

Kaorti Resin, if I remember right, does not affect the threat range, but rather the critical damage multiplier (going from a x2 to x3, and x3 to x4 or some such)

However, like Greenish already said that material is not iron or steel and is not compatible with Disciple of Dispater.

[Greenish]

Stump knife with Imp. Critical would have 13-20 threat range.
Stump knife with DoD and Imp. Critical (assuming they stacked) would have 5-20 threat range.
Stump knife with PWM and Imp. Critical would have 11-20 threat range.

Street fighter barbarian 7 would increase any of the above by 1 for "any charge attack he makes, or any attack he makes against a flat-footed foe".


[Edit]: Weapons made from kaorti resin flat-out have x4 crit multiplier. Pretty brutal stuff.

The main argument against DoD and Imp. Critical stacking in 3.5 is that Iron Power is explicitly based on keen enhancement ("as if he were using a keen weapon"), which used to stack with Imp. Critical in 3.0, but no longer does in 3.5.

[Doctor Awkward]

Street fighter barbarian 7 would increase any of the above by 1 for "any charge attack he makes, or any attack he makes against a flat-footed foe".

True, but since that would require 15 levels of your character. There are far other more effective riders you could use.



The main argument against DoD and Imp. Critical stacking in 3.5 is that Iron Power is explicitly based on keen enhancement ("as if he were using a keen weapon"), which used to stack with Imp. Critical in 3.0, but no longer does in 3.5.

Eh, fair enough.


As far as effective more effective uses for this than 7 levels of Barbarian...

-Taking 1 level in Warblade gets you the Blood in the Water stance, which gives you a cumulative +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls for each critical hit you back up.
-Taking 3 levels in Warblade gets you Intelligence to Critical Hit confirm rolls.
-Power Critical feat gives you +4 to Confirm Critical Hit rolls.
-Taking 1 level in Dervish allows you to treat scimitars as light weapons for Two-Weapon Fighting purposes, and lets you make full attacks after moving.
-Placing the Aptitude weapon enhancement (on Tome of Battle) on a pair of scimitars allows them to count as a specific type of weapon for a feat that requires it. In this case, make them count as maces for the Lightning Mace style feat. This gives you an extra swing at the same bonus each time you threaten a critical hit. Battles are pretty much over at that point.

EDIT: Oops, forgot one.
The Dolorous Blow spell (SpC), cast by your Friendly Neighborhood GOD Wizard, automatically confirms every critical threat from the weapon it's cast upon.

[TheCrowing1432]

Needle Strike from Oriental Adventures doubles your threat range when full attack and sneak attacking and it stacks with Keen/Improved Critical

[Deophaun]

-Placing the Aptitude weapon enhancement (on Tome of Battle) on a pair of scimitars allows them to count as a specific type of weapon for a feat that requires it. In this case, make them count as maces for the Lightning Mace style feat. This gives you an extra swing at the same bonus each time you threaten a critical hit. Battles are pretty much over at that point.
Questionable RAW interpretation, as the weapon enhancement says "such as Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like," which all require you to specify a weapon when you take the feats, and not "such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Rapid Reload, or the like," which would be a broad enough category for Lightning Mace to fit into.

[Greenish]

Mmn, DoD is sadly Evil-only, and there's no Battle Blessing for Blackguard or Corrupt Weapon version of Sacred Scabbard for auto-confirming criticals. Wand or oil might work but the action cost and short duration are a bummer. Ditto Dolorous Blow.

[Doctor Awkward]

Needle Strike from Oriental Adventures doubles your threat range when full attack and sneak attacking and it stacks with Keen/Improved Critical

That's not in my copy of Oriental Adventures. Are you sure it's not from another L5R book?


Questionable RAW interpretation, as the weapon enhancement says "such as Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like," which all require you to specify a weapon when you take the feats, and not "such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Rapid Reload, or the like," which would be a broad enough category for Lightning Mace to fit into.

"A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as ... can apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude quality."

If it actually said, "which apply to a single weapon", like what is found in the text for the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability, or "requires you to choose a weapon" then the intent would be pretty clear. Since it doesn't, it's just as likely the editor went through the PHB or picked the ones he could think of off the top of his head.

[TheCrowing1432]

That's not in my copy of Oriental Adventures. Are you sure it's not from another L5R book?



"A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as ... can apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude quality."

If it actually said, "which apply to a single weapon", like what is found in the text for the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability, or "requires you to choose a weapon" then the intent would be pretty clear. Since it doesn't, it's just as likely the editor went through the PHB or picked the ones he could think of off the top of his head.

http://www.dan-site.com/Oriental_Feats.htm

Its from one of the Oriental Books.

[Doctor Awkward]

http://www.dan-site.com/Oriental_Feats.htm

Its from one of the Oriental Books.

oh ok that's this book: Way of the Ninja (http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Way_of_the_Ninja)

If they have a d20 conversion, I suppose, but it'd be tough to squeak that by a DM. A lot harder than Aptitude/Lightning Maces.

[Chronos]

As written, I think that the Warblade class feature only works on feats that let you choose a weapon, but that the weapon mod works on any weapon-specific feat, including things like Lightning Maces. But this is probably a good place to houserule, since that quirk of the weapon ability mostly just ends up being used for cheese like infinite-attacking critfishers.

[Deophaun]

"A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as ... can apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude quality."

If it actually said, "which apply to a single weapon", like what is found in the text for the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability, or "requires you to choose a weapon" then the intent would be pretty clear. Since it doesn't, it's just as likely the editor went through the PHB or picked the ones he could think of off the top of his head.
Notice how you had to edit out the part that goes against your interpretation, and how you have to dismiss the naming of three feats that all follow the same very particular rules? That's the sign of a weak RAW reading.

And if he went through the PHB to pick them, Rapid Reload comes before Weapon Specialization.

[TheCrowing1432]

oh ok that's this book: Way of the Ninja (http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Way_of_the_Ninja)

If they have a d20 conversion, I suppose, but it'd be tough to squeak that by a DM. A lot harder than Aptitude/Lightning Maces.


It includes mechanics for the Second Edition as well as the d20 version of the RPG

Quoted from the wiki

[Denver]

It might be worth noting that only a Slashing or Piercing weapon gains the critical multiplier of the Kaorti resin material, and that a weapon made of Kaorti resin material requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield without penalty. Additionally, the Kaorti resin cannot be added to an existing weapon, and instead must be created as a Masterwork Kaorti resin weapon.

[Doctor Awkward]

Notice how you had to edit out the part that goes against your interpretation, and how you have to dismiss the naming of three feats that all follow the same very particular rules? That's the sign of a weak RAW reading.

And if he went through the PHB to pick them, Rapid Reload comes before Weapon Specialization.

I noticed that if you look at Table 5-1 in the PHB, the feat chain is listed (in order) Weapon Focus -> Weapon Specialization -> Greater Weapon Focus.

I also noticed how they don't dismiss my interpretation any more than they support yours, other than they all happen to appear in the same table three lines apart from each other.
Even the fluff of the ability states that "the wielder may apply his expertise with another type of weapon to the aptitude weapon. Thus, the master of a greatsword is also the master of any aptitude weapon."
By your interpretation (and mine), I could take any aptitude weapon and apply the benefit of Crossbow Sniper, getting me 1/2 DEX Bonus to all damage rolls, since it has a prerequisite of Weapon Focus (crossbow), which is explicitly covered in the ability description.

And finally, I noticed how the clarifying language present in the Warblade class ability description is conspicuously absent from the weapon special ability description that appears just six chapters later in the same book.

It's just as likely that the Warblade example feat list was edited for the sake brevity, like I did in my post.
Basically, my point is the feat ability is unclear, and we don't know the intent.

[Raishoiken]

I have a 1-20 range if third party is allowed

[Greenish]

Aptitude and Lightning Maces is all fun and games until some gets Death Urged to face.

[Chronos]

Quoth Raishoiken:

I have a 1-20 range if third party is allowed
Everything is possible if third party is allowed. Just make up the ability you want. Or technically, have someone else make it up, because if you do it, it's second party.

Now, you can get some interesting results if you limit things to just good third-party, or well-respected, but then we'd have to argue about which third-party materials are good or well-respected.

[The Viscount]

If we're optimizing critical hits murderous intent is great, auto-confirm vs favored enemy. You just need way to hange favored enemy for the situation which I think exists.

[Deadline]

Aptitude and Lightning Maces is all fun and games until some gets Death Urged to face.

That poor, poor gunslinger in the Test of Spite.

But man, what a way to go. :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Quoth The Viscount:

If we're optimizing critical hits murderous intent is great, auto-confirm vs favored enemy. You just need way to hange favored enemy for the situation which I think exists.
I don't know about changing it, but you could go Stalker of Khoresh for Favored Enemy: Evil, which covers a lot of ground for the typical adventurer.

[Doctor Awkward]

I don't know about changing it, but you could go Stalker of Khoresh for Favored Enemy: Evil, which covers a lot of ground for the typical adventurer.

That doesn't really jive all that well with Disciple of Dispater.

[Renen]

Everything is possible if third party is allowed. Just make up the ability you want. Or technically, have someone else make it up, because if you do it, it's second party.

Now, you can get some interesting results if you limit things to just good third-party, or well-respected, but then we'd have to argue about which third-party materials are good or well-respected.

Agreed. I wouldnt be surprised if third party had something stupid like "Double your crit range. Stacks with EVERYTHING."

[Raishoiken]

Everything is possible if third party is allowed. Just make up the ability you want. Or technically, have someone else make it up, because if you do it, it's second party.

Now, you can get some interesting results if you limit things to just good third-party, or well-respected, but then we'd have to argue about which third-party materials are good or well-respected.


While yeah, you could just make up your own ability using third party (also something you can do using the demon lord template in one of the dragon mags), you could just use what's already there. I do agree that there is some pretty ridiculous third party out there such as the spell in one of the encyclopedia arcane books that augments an attack so that it auto hits and bypasses all special defenses. I think it'd be better to debate whether or not it's "good" third party case by case rather than condemn the use of third party altogether

[Lilapop]

Two options that haven't been mentioned yet: Another weapon with base crit range better than 18+ is the Minotaur Greathammer, and the Weapon Master prc from Sword&Fist nets you a flat +2 to your crit range. Combining those with the obvious nets you 3-20/x5 by level 20, according to what I posted on skype years ago.

human fighter 4/warblade 1/weapon master 7/disciple of dispater 8
lvl1: exotic weapon prof (minotaur greathammer)

fgr1: weapon focus (minotaur greathammer)
human: dodge
flaw: mobility
lvl2: combat reflexes

fgr2: expertise
lvl4: spring attack

fgr4: whirlwind attack
wbl1: blood in the water, [a maneuver of your choice, initiator level is 3]
lvl6: disciple of darkness
lvl9: imp crit (minotaur greathammer)
lvl12: power attack

Of course, this isn't the most viable build ever - but then, few full-attack-based builds are. If you are only after the novelty effect of ridiculous crit ranges, this is pretty much what you are looking for.
It doesn't help with DoD's 3.0 vs 3.5 controversy though...

[kalasulmar]

I have never understood why Keen and Improved Critical don't stack. Same effect but from different sources? By that logic, masterwork and weapon focus shouldn't stack. Or weapon specialization and any magic weapon bonus.

[Greenish]

I have never understood why Keen and Improved Critical don't stack. Same effect but from different sources? By that logic, masterwork and weapon focus shouldn't stack. Or weapon specialization and any magic weapon bonus.Presumably the developers just thought crits ought to be less frequent. I doubt they were much concerned with logical consistency.



the Weapon Master prc from Sword&Fist nets you a flat +2 to your crit range.
I seem to recall CW's Exotic Weapon Master being the official update for S&F's Weapon Master, in which case the latter is no longer 3.5 legal. That's why the very similar Psychic Weapon Master was brought up in the 3rd post.

[Chronos]

Note that the +2 from (Psychic) Weapon Master explicitly applies after multipliers. It still helps, but not as much as you'd like.

You can also get an expanded range from Kensei (OA) and from Arcane Duelist (3.0, but never updated), but those would be very hard to fit into a 20-level build.

[Eskil]

The Barbarian Streetfighter AFC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) adds 1 to the threat range on a charge or against a flatfooted opponent and explicitly stacks with Improved Critical or Keen.

[The Viscount]

I don't know about changing it, but you could go Stalker of Khoresh for Favored Enemy: Evil, which covers a lot of ground for the typical adventurer.

Yeah, it is unfortunate it wouldn't work too well. I suppose there's always favored enemy (arcanists), which is pretty broad.

[Snowbluff]

There's a sword in OA with 19-29 crit threat. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

There's a sword in OA with 19-29 crit threat. :smalltongue:Oh, right.

Ninja-to with Imp. Critical or Keen would have threat range of 8–29.
Ninja-to with 8 levels of DoD would have threat range of -3–29.
Ninja-to with 8 levels of DoD and Imp. Critical would have threat range of -14–29.
Ninja-to with 8 levels of DoD, 7 levels of Psychic Weapon Master, and 7 levels of streetfighter barbarian, and Imp. Critical would have threat range of -17–29.

Ladies and gentlemen, I do believe the question of highest possible crit range has been answered, at least as it pertains to 1st party sources only.