PDA

View Full Version : Magic: Power vs. Conveniance (A though experiment)



Talakeal
2015-02-16, 11:02 PM
Imagine you are playing an RPG set in a fairly generic fantasy setting.

In this setting magicians are capable of performing great feats. They can kill dozens of people with a thought from across the world, create enough food to feed an army for a year, alter global weather patterns, commune with the gods to learn the secrets of the universe, release enough energy to destroy entire cities, conjure enough gold to buy a small kingdom, bring back the dead, utterly rewrite someone's personality and memories, create new life, restore lost youth, raise cities from the earth, travel through time, etc..

Virtually anything, save for altering the way magic works.

Now then, spell casting has the following limitations:

1: Only a very few people can become magicians, a very precise set of environmental or genetic factors all need to line up.
2: Learning magic takes years, leaving said magicians sorely lacking in non magical knowledge and physically rather feeble.
3: Magic can only be practiced by children, once they hit puberty the gift will disappear.
4: Casting a spell requires a ritual that takes several days. If this ritual is interrupted for any reason the wizard's soul is shattered and with it their ability to do magic.
5: Casting a spell drains all of the wizard's energy. After casting a spell they must spend a full year recovering, during which time they can barely get out of bed let alone attempt another spell.


So, if you are playing in this setting, would you ever play a wizard? Would you ever not play a wizard? Do you think other people would play wizards? Would you think that wizards are mandatory for any party? Do you think all wizard parties would be the norm or the exception?

JNAProductions
2015-02-16, 11:06 PM
Would I play a wizard, or expect one to be in the party? Hell no. It takes days to cast a spell, and has a cooldown of over a year.

More than that, it takes years of training, but only kids can do it. So let's assume training starts at 3, somehow, and they're wizards by 5. If childhood lasts through 13, you get 8 spells.

8. Spells.

That's, uh... That's not a very functioning magic system. And it gets even worse when you realize you can't actually train 3 year olds to do complex rituals.

Tohron
2015-02-16, 11:55 PM
The only reason you'd play a "wizard" is if they used their ~8 spells to enchant some kind of exo-suit with various offensive and defensive abilities. And they wouldn't really be a wizard by the time you play them, they'd be someone who was a wizard, and has a super-powered exo-suit to show for it.

JNAProductions
2015-02-16, 11:59 PM
I would totally play a "Former Wizard". Magical Exo-Suit in D&D? Sign me up.

Do I have to roll to survive character generation?

Kid Jake
2015-02-17, 12:04 AM
It's an interesting concept, but wizards wouldn't really be characters anymore; they'd be plot devices. It'd be bad news to have one turned against you, but unless the entire campaign revolved around the five times they get to feel cool in their life I couldn't see anybody playing one.

Which actually reminds me of a game that I stumbled on like fifteen years ago that completely escapes me, where there was no real resolution mechanic for your special power; you just got to say "Now this happens." and it did, but after using your power a handful of times you were dragged to hell (or somewhere similar) and the character retired. Most of the game was about the unintended repercussions of your power abuse and discovering what situation was dire enough to risk your soul to escape.

For the life f me I can't remember what it was called...

Gritmonger
2015-02-17, 12:08 AM
If there are no limits on the actual spell effect, and they are all up-front costs on the part of the spellcaster, I would play a spellbroker, and have a stable of children with pension plans.

Talk about rich.

Talk about power.

Yeah, spell one is the one to protect the building and the stable from all physical, magical, mundane, social, ecological, economic, political or astrophysical disaster.

Spell two is the one that makes it so the isolation room is perfectly impregnable to anything once sealed until a ritual is complete, or it is opened by agreed codes by the persons inside and outside.

After that... how much money do you have, country-in-question?

JNAProductions
2015-02-17, 12:12 AM
Spell 3-infinite money bag. It's full of every kind of coin and never runs out.

Why are you bartering with nations?

Gritmonger
2015-02-17, 12:14 AM
Spell 3-infinite money bag. It's full of every kind of coin and never runs out.

Why are you bartering with nations?

Remember the spell about protection from economic disaster? I suspect that one would come into play in that case...
Edited to add: Besides, I think having the Creche as an investment opportunity would get me a lot more protection as well, as people don't like to see their interests raided by other groups.

goto124
2015-02-17, 12:15 AM
How do you play a PC wizard when you can't even cast 1 spell per day? You'll be more like a fighter with a bit of magic.

JNAProductions
2015-02-17, 12:18 AM
A weak, frail, takes a year to recover from magic fighter.

Edit: Who's a kid.

Arbane
2015-02-17, 12:24 AM
How do you play a PC wizard when you can't even cast 1 spell per day? You'll be more like a fighter with a bit of magic.

Exalted did reasonably well with a sorcery system where spellcasting was exhausting and near-suicidal to use in combat (it's obvious when you're casting a spell, it takes a while, you can't use defensive powers, and if you lose concentration there is a non-zero risk of exploding), but it's still horrendously powerful and useful - you just cast your spells _before_ the fight starts, so you've got invulnerable skin of bronze, dragon's claws for hands, or a pet war-demon.

Mind you, any reasonable Exalted character is expected to have combat abilities on top of being the World's Greatest Swordsman/Sneak/Blacksmith/Doctor/Bureaucrat/Whatever, even if they used a few Charms to become a sorcerer.

Erik Vale
2015-02-17, 01:11 AM
2: Learning magic takes years, leaving said magicians sorely lacking in non magical knowledge and physically rather feeble.
3: Magic can only be practiced by children, once they hit puberty the gift will disappear.

I said no here.

So what, starting at 5, they then spend a nebulous time of years [Which I presume is more teaching them to follow the rituals], before ending somewhere between 11-14 [I think], or later if you are a girl and manipulate your body so you don't go through puberty. [At least, I think certain types of female athlete don't go through puberty, I know some things don't happen developmentally at least].

I'm not interested in playing a adventuring kid, I don't want to play a frail woman who kinda looked like a really tall 13 year old.

Having then looked up at the other factors, no, I wouldn't. Those make you a NPC, not a PC. These wizards are the tools of nations that [hopefully] receive recompense later while being put into a breeding program to make more wizards, not individuals.

Lord Raziere
2015-02-17, 01:17 AM
No way. I'd rather play a guy who can only spontaneously cast fire spells all day. give me convenient but narrow magic any day over this, especially for playing a PC.

oxybe
2015-02-17, 01:45 AM
Well, the big issue is that you're talking about small children who don't have the experience, knowledge or foresight of an older experienced adult.

Assuming someing akin to Mushoku Tensei where an adult dies and gets reincarned as a kid who can use magic, but still keeping his adult mind intact...

Step 1 - Create a spell that slows down time around you so that 25 months pass in slow time = 1 second, or something similar.

This means that in the span of a second, you will have a little over years to do whatever you want. like rest and plan. It's like time stop, only better.

Step 2 - Cast a spell that makes it so my body stays in it's prepubescent state until I will it otherwise. This way I can use magic effectively forever, unless it becomes clear that it's inconvenient. Always give yourself an out.

Since you're always in prepubescent state, you'll likely never have to worry about aging and as such, dying of old age.

This leads us to... Infinicasting.

Step 1 - cast Time Slow. Time slows down for 2.some years. you rest up for the first year.
Step 2 - cast whatever other spell you want, research or do whatever. if you cast a spell you still have another year to rest up.
Step 3 - Then, as you have some time left over, if you want to you recast time slow and go back to step 1.

Technically not breaking the rules.

1: Only a very few people can become magicians, a very precise set of environmental or genetic factors all need to line up.
-This is assumed true by default if I'm playing a wizard, so hooray!
2: Learning magic takes years, leaving said magicians sorely lacking in non magical knowledge and physically rather feeble.
-Hey, I have time stopping powers. I can take a year off every now and then to get buff. buffest preteen ever.
3: Magic can only be practiced by children, once they hit puberty the gift will disappear.
-Spell 2 causes me to stay preteen forever unless I will it otherwise, so loophole, ho!
4: Casting a spell requires a ritual that takes several days. If this ritual is interrupted for any reason the wizard's soul is shattered and with it their ability to do magic.
-It shouldn't be too hard to get the first Time Slow off. Once that's done everything is off the table, from the impregnable wizard rest room to making magic items that allow me to get to my room whenever I want
5: Casting a spell drains all of the wizard's energy. After casting a spell they must spend a full year recovering, during which time they can barely get out of bed let alone attempt another spell.
-Time slow gives a year and more, so this basically becomes a non-factor. By the time it wears off and returns to normal, I'm recuperated.

:smalltongue:

Talakeal
2015-02-17, 01:51 AM
No way. I'd rather play a guy who can only spontaneously cast fire spells all day. give me convenient but narrow magic any day over this, especially for playing a PC.

Oh, so would I. I don't think this scenario is anyone's idea of a first choice.

Deophaun
2015-02-17, 02:00 AM
Step 1 - Create a spell that slows down time around you so that 25 months pass in slow time = 1 second, or something similar.

This means that in the span of a second, you will have a little over years to do whatever you want. like rest and plan. It's like time stop, only better.
Except that you're a kid with minimal physical skills and no magic trapped in a world that will. not. change. for two years. With no one else to help you set that broken leg, make sure it doesn't turn gangrenous, and cut it off when it does, for example.

It's a very gamest approach, but in actual roleplay it would be very unpleasant, even at just the psychological level, and not something a person would willingly subject themselves to all that often. And depending on where you are, the time period, and the current weather conditions, it could be fatal.

Darth Ultron
2015-02-17, 02:05 AM
Well, is this a Game of Thrones like setting? Or like RISK? If so then playing a wizard would be fine.

But if the game is more an adventure game, like D&D, with a group of PC's then it would be a big no to ever being a wizard.

After all, the wizard you described could not even go on a typical adventure.

What is the point of being a wizard if you can't cast any spells?

Though I'll say it's a bit odd to have ''takes years to learn magic'' and can only cast magic till puberty. So that is like what 10-13? So a wizard can only cast magic for three years? And that is three spells?

oxybe
2015-02-17, 02:25 AM
What broken leg? Since You need several days to cast the spell, if you're in a state that your leg hasn't been set for darn near a week's time (yet this injury is still not harmful enough to interrupt the creation of the ritual), yet still have more then enough time to prepare and cast the ritual for casting these spells you've probably got other issues you should be attending to.

It's also made pretty clear if the spell is interrupted that you lose the ability to cast spells, so if some guy just randomly kicks down the door and stomps your leg out the spell wouldn't have gone off.

This sounds like a rather tenuous argument to make.

Weather and whatnot would be non-issues unless they occur in the middle of casting the spell, at which point we need to think of what constitutes interruption. And if the weather does interrupt, well it immediately becomes a non-issue.

So one can reasonably think that
A) you would be casting spells in an area where you can safely assume people won't barge in and break your legs
B) the weather/season is somewhat more manageable then "raining fire and knife tornadoes".

I would also like you to note the second line i started with:
"Assuming something akin to Mushoku Tensei where an adult dies and gets reincarned as a kid who can use magic, but still keeping his adult mind intact..."

In that, if i could have an adult's mind, sure, why not. We're talking theoreticals here where magical kids can warp reality after a week of making finger paints on the floor.

Otherwise, the first line i opened my post with applies, which is:
"Well, the big issue is that you're talking about small children who don't have the experience, knowledge or foresight of an older experienced adult."

Because being a dumb kid who has no idea how to use reality warping powers (and as such will either follow and adult's orders or throw the worst tantrum ever), then losing them as my voice deepens is hardly fun.

As an adult, two years in isolation is hell, but in all honesty, if I am left so exhausted that "during which time they can barely get out of bed" I'm likely casting the spell for very VERY important reasons because it leaves me so drained that i barely have the energy to do basic day-to-day functions.

As such any caster worth their weight in salt will have prepared for this horrible downtime, either by making sure they're cared for, in a safe area, etc...

All in all, it's not "gamist". It's knowing the rules of the universe and applying them or working around them. People do that all the time in real life. People work to understand the underlining principals of the universe.

As such, with the 8 rules I was given I gave my answer.

Satinavian
2015-02-17, 02:33 AM
Let's assume, the magic does not allow to change the limitations of magic for the caster (because, if it did, people would have abused the loophole long ago)

Yes, i would play a spellcaster even then. The concept and my whole life would revolve around the 5 big spells i have to change the whole setting.

I certainly would not use any magic in regular adentures. I would be just a pretty useless child in them. Why would i go on adventures anyway ?

Gavran
2015-02-17, 02:57 AM
Putting aside wizard power suits (albeit remorsefully :P), nobody would play a wizard adventurer by those rules because those rules explicitly prohibit adventuring. No normal game has a scale where everyone can take a year off so one player can rest, and a party full of wizards would just be "abusing loopholes" (really more like problem solving in this case) in between massive time skips. "You spend six days casting a spell" isn't a game, and "you spend a year in bed" sure as hell isn't. Could the basic idea work as a setting feature? Sure, though to my own personal tastes I'd probably make some tweaks to it. Not really fond of the "magic of childhood imagination!" implications, nor the grimmer reality of brainwashed wizard child slaves that would be the likely outcome (assuming they weren't all just executed because they have way too much power.)

Also oxybe, you forgot to create infallible constructs that take care of your every need in your downtime and a spell that let's you have mental timeskips to bypass the isolation thing. Though I suppose you've got to choose just one of those (and the time altering spell) as your first which is a bit inconvenient. Probably best to just go with the Time Slow and tough out the first two years alone with stockpiled resources, and the second two alone with the constructs.

oxybe
2015-02-17, 03:15 AM
@ Gavran

Either or, really. Using the first spell to create a robobutler/robomaid to take care of you is hardly a bad choice for your first spell, especially if he's a great conversationalist. Probably the most "practical one" in all honesty if we're going for the Time Slow method (which if we want to we can create it so it affect selected people/area), since you'll then be fully ready when it slows down.

It'll give you something to at least converse with and bounce ideas off of until the cooldown period ends. Hell, since we technically have as much time as we want, we can go full Professor Layton and create our own St. Mystere darn near overnight.

-Create robobutler/maid that is also a child
-Invent Time Slow
-Become Immortal.
-Make village of robots to amuse you and converse with. Have some robots to spare in an underground village.
-Every decade or so, rotate the robots around so it looks like families are being created/growing up.
-Put yourself, as you're a child, in a different family every so often. For a few years you're the doctor's son, then the fisherman's son, then the drunken lout's son, then...
-Have attendant be your best friend/sibling.
-Success?

NichG
2015-02-17, 03:32 AM
Lets not pretend that what a player of this sort of character would be doing would be providing spellcasting services for the party. Instead, they'd be using the at-will superpowers they spent their childhood accumulating with magic. "Former Wizard" is certainly a viable adventuring character in this system, and is probably broken.

The thing is, in the psychology of players, a set of rules like this is just asking to be twisted. The way they're phrased is very actively designed to suppress players' desire to play such a character, so it makes it a challenge to figure out how to get around that. Whatever a GM creating these rules thought he was going to get, what he's actually going to get is a huge upswing in people trying to pull off TO stuff.

Karl Aegis
2015-02-17, 03:37 AM
It works better if magic stops working when you are no longer a naive child playing games with the laws of reality and realize you have consequences for your actions beyond "That's pretty cool."

Also: There is an RPG out there where you can play a small child piloting a 25 foot tall mech. Adults can pilot slightly smaller mechs, but adults are rejected by the "sealed evil in a can" power source.

http://archive.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1421/73/1421739076839.jpg

Seto
2015-02-17, 03:42 AM
Hmm, elves (if they exist) and other long-lived races would rule the world, with their super-long childhoods and whatnot.

(And I wouldn't play a PC Wizard with such conditions).

Talakeal
2015-02-17, 03:47 AM
Hmm, elves (if they exist) and other long-lived races would rule the world, with their super-long childhoods and whatnot.

(And I wouldn't play a PC Wizard with such conditions).

As with most things, I would imagine it is a quantity over quality issue and a humans faster breeding rate would more than make up for the elves' longer lifespans.

Also, I explicitly listed restoring youth as something magic is capable of, so it probably wouldn't be that big of an issue.

Raimun
2015-02-17, 04:33 AM
Well sure, perhaps. I might be interested to try playing one. If only your imagination limits your magical powers, there's a lot of loopholes to make such a character practical.

Then again, what are the other "classes" capable of? Could I roll a mundane dude who could strong arm and/or persuade these mages to do my bidding? Because they are basically like Batman and have insane physical, mental and social capabilities. Or at least one or some of those? Because when the amazing superpowers have been turned off, for whatever reason, Badass Normal characters are the real power players.

Belial_the_Leveler
2015-02-17, 06:47 PM
It's a totally abusable system:


1) Caster makes large amount of clone bodies in sequential activation.

2) Caster makes himself a fast-time demiplane sanctum.

3) Caster makes contingent effects that are precast.

4) Caster kills himself each time he wants to move to fresh, rested body.



Effectively, the caster is immortal and can cast spells as often as he wants.

Talakeal
2015-02-17, 06:54 PM
It's a totally abusable system:


1) Caster makes large amount of clone bodies in sequential activation.

2) Caster makes himself a fast-time demiplane sanctum.

3) Caster makes contingent effects that are precast.

4) Caster kills himself each time he wants to move to fresh, rested body.



Effectively, the caster is immortal and can cast spells as often as he wants.

I never said anything about the source or the nature of the enrgy depletion. You assume that time travel or killing yourself bypasses the year long restriction but that is just an assumption. It might be, say, a divine curse enforced by a being who is smart enough to see through such shenanigans.

Again, it is just a thought experiment rather than an actual campaign setting, and the intent is that magic cannot bypass its own limits. How that is enforced is more or less irrelevant.

Belial_the_Leveler
2015-02-17, 06:55 PM
Because when the amazing superpowers have been turned off, for whatever reason, Badass Normal characters are the real power players.


There's no difference between "badass normality" and "superpowers" when it comes to turning them off. All it takes to depower Batman is anything that could take him out long enough for someone to give him a spinal injury and then bye bye "badass normal".


Which begs the question why it has only been done once in all of Batman's history, given that he's been captured a bazillion times.

JNAProductions
2015-02-17, 07:01 PM
He's still a genius. Oracle, anyone?

So here's how you get rid of Batman-when you capture him, chop his damn head off. No more Batman. (God, the amount of times I've wanted to slap a supervillain and just yell "SHOOT HIM! IN THE FACE! RIGHT NOW!" is astronomical.)

Deophaun
2015-02-17, 07:09 PM
What broken leg? Since You need several days to cast the spell, if you're in a state that your leg hasn't been set for darn near a week's time (yet this injury is still not harmful enough to interrupt the creation of the ritual), yet still have more then enough time to prepare and cast the ritual for casting these spells you've probably got other issues you should be attending to.
The leg you broke on your way to breaking into one of the remaining cottages that still had cooked food for you to eat. Because, despite barely being able to get out of bed, you still need to eat, and the food isn't going to march into your mouth.

It's also made pretty clear if the spell is interrupted that you lose the ability to cast spells, so if some guy just randomly kicks down the door and stomps your leg out the spell wouldn't have gone off.
Hi! The point is all the way on the other side of the continent. I think you missed it.

Belial_the_Leveler
2015-02-17, 07:11 PM
1) Cast spell that creates an artifact Ring that;

*Allows you to turn invisible or create illusions/darkness at will.
*Allows you to observe and mentally influence others at a distance.
*Allows you to infuse buildings and objects with permancy so they can't truly be destroyed.
*Allows you to turn your servants into undead horrors.
*Prevents you from aging and dying while the ring endures, at most being reduced to spirit form.
* Allows you to assume various forms, from pleasing visage to towering brute with the strength of a hundred men.
*Corrupts any other wearer, eventually turning them to your minion if weak or to your equivalent if powerful.
*Can only be destroyed in a specific way at the place of its creation.


2) Try not to lose the ring.

JNAProductions
2015-02-17, 07:14 PM
*Bind the ring to yourself so it can't be removed and can be summoned back at any time with a mere thought

*slaps Sauron* Come on, man, simple things! Not hard to accomplish when you're nigh-omnipotent!

Talakeal
2015-02-17, 07:23 PM
The thing is, in the psychology of players, a set of rules like this is just asking to be twisted. The way they're phrased is very actively designed to suppress players' desire to play such a character, so it makes it a challenge to figure out how to get around that. Whatever a GM creating these rules thought he was going to get, what he's actually going to get is a huge upswing in people trying to pull off TO stuff.

Again, this is just a thought experiment on the nature of power rather than a real campaign. Just assume that the limitations are enforced by FIAT.

Still, this is actually a very insightful post. I suppose in the end the types of players who like to abuse options will just lawyer their way around restrictions. It is kind of a vicious cycle, you put in limitations to restrict abuse, but only end up restricting the players who wouldn't abuse the system in the first place as said abusive players will find a way to rules lawyer around any limitations you set on them. Fascinating. +1 Internet to you sir!

oxybe
2015-02-17, 07:28 PM
The leg you broke on your way to breaking into one of the remaining cottages that still had cooked food for you to eat. Because, despite barely being able to get out of bed, you still need to eat, and the food isn't going to march into your mouth.

Hi! The point is all the way on the other side of the continent. I think you missed it.

Well, if we're going to be using the "nuh-huh" method of argumentation, the food was prepared before time.

Shrug.

sakuuya
2015-02-17, 07:45 PM
It's an interesting concept, but wizards wouldn't really be characters anymore; they'd be plot devices. It'd be bad news to have one turned against you, but unless the entire campaign revolved around the five times they get to feel cool in their life I couldn't see anybody playing one.

Which actually reminds me of a game that I stumbled on like fifteen years ago that completely escapes me, where there was no real resolution mechanic for your special power; you just got to say "Now this happens." and it did, but after using your power a handful of times you were dragged to hell (or somewhere similar) and the character retired. Most of the game was about the unintended repercussions of your power abuse and discovering what situation was dire enough to risk your soul to escape.

For the life f me I can't remember what it was called...

Are you thinking of Sorcerer (http://adept-press.com/games-fantasy-horror/sorcerer/)?

Gavran
2015-02-17, 07:50 PM
Again, this is just a thought experiment on the nature of power rather than a real campaign. Just assume that the limitations are enforced by FIAT.

Still, this is actually a very insightful post. I suppose in the end the types of players who like to abuse options will just lawyer their way around restrictions. It is kind of a vicious cycle, you put in limitations to restrict abuse, but only end up restricting the players who wouldn't abuse the system in the first place as said abusive players will find a way to rules lawyer around any limitations you set on them. Fascinating. +1 Internet to you sir!

In addition to that, as I said earlier this set up is less "loophole abuse" and more problem-solving. You've set it up so that the cost of magic is so high that it's only use is the obscenely powerful. Meaning - players who aren't normally likely to push the envelope of power into totally unreasonable levels (such as myself) are going to do so as well. Well, that or just not play at all - since the only way to have a playable game would be to ban them as PCs (in which case there are lots of NPCs with sufficient power (and motivation) to completely eclipse any player actions ever taken) or play as a party of wizards who used their magic to circumvent its limitations in some way (in which case there are PCs with sufficient power (and motivation) to completely eclipse any non-player actions ever taken.)

Kid Jake
2015-02-17, 08:01 PM
Are you thinking of Sorcerer (http://adept-press.com/games-fantasy-horror/sorcerer/)?

That may in fact be it. I'ma pick up a copy and see.

Deophaun
2015-02-17, 08:35 PM
Well, if we're going to be using the "nuh-huh" method of argumentation, the food was prepared before time.
"Nuh-huh?" This was the entire point of my post, which you completely missed by talking about people interrupting the casting instead. You are putting yourself in a world for two years with no outside interference. How are you surviving? Your original wasn't. He's dead. Start casting your spell, and on the last day there's a terrible blizzard. Now what? You're stuck in a frigid wasteland and can't build a fire. You're dead again.

Time stop is great when it lasts just a few minutes. Trying to survive for years in a suspended environment is a much bigger problem. Especially when you're practically bedridden for the first half of it.

oxybe
2015-02-17, 09:04 PM
Because you're somehow conjuring blizzards and broken legs out of nowhere? By your "point" (as loose as it is) it seems that horrible things happen out of practically nowhere. You don't start casting your spell outdoors in the middle of winter. you do so inside where it's warm... Why would the bilzzard harm you then? Same with your broken leg: it takes several days to cast the spell so if someone kicks down your door and breaks your leg, the spell is likely interrupted. At which point you lose.

When time is stopped, there's no further chance for blizzards to just randomly occur and unless you decide to be a daredevil then i doubt you'll break your legs. I've been alive for 29 years and barring outside forces (which are all likely affected by time slow) I don't expect to break my limbs.

Hell the "Keep my body in it's current pre-pubescent state" spell could possibly be granting me wolverine-like super healing, since any injury would be going against the state i was in when i cast it. who know. Not me when I took the 5 or so minutes to write the initial post you seem to have taken surprising offense with.

In a real situation where i'm given power overwhelming, yes i would take a bit more time to plan out how exactly i would go through with things, because it would be real and not some theoretical idea on the internet.

but the core of it would be: become forever young + time slow.

either way, i'm done. i'm out.

VincentTakeda
2015-02-17, 09:20 PM
...Most of the game was about the unintended repercussions of your power abuse...

For the life f me I can't remember what it was called...

Rifts? Heheheheheh.

Deophaun
2015-02-17, 09:41 PM
Because you're somehow conjuring blizzards and broken legs out of nowhere? By your "point" (as loose as it is) it seems that horrible things happen out of practically nowhere. You don't start casting your spell outdoors in the middle of winter. you do so inside where it's warm... Why would the bilzzard harm you then? Same with your broken leg: it takes several days to cast the spell so if someone kicks down your door and breaks your leg, the spell is likely interrupted. At which point you lose.
Again with people breaking down the door. NO. You are alone for two years. You have to survive. You will be active. Getting a broken limb in that time frame is not unthinkable. It happens. Even if this takes place in a Disney movie, all your friendly forest friends are time stopped and so can't help prevent you from tumbling down a ravine.

This is why all of your wizards die, because they do not prepare for common, foreseeable occurrences, let alone the unthinkable ones.

And quite frankly, the idea that the people who invested all the time to train you to use unlimited power for their benefit are going to give you the freedom to cast a time stop spell and then cast who knows what outside of their watchful eyes is... highly unlikely. You need an organization that is wide and smart enough to identify and train these temporary demigods but dumb enough to let them out of their sight for days at a time, let alone seconds (they're too rare and valuable to be outside of anything other than the world's equivalent of Fort Knox).

Milo v3
2015-02-17, 11:49 PM
Again with people breaking down the door.

People don't just randomly break down doors.... :smallconfused:

Gavran
2015-02-18, 12:22 AM
Again with people breaking down the door. NO. You are alone for two years. You have to survive. You will be active. Getting a broken limb in that time frame is not unthinkable. It happens. Even if this takes place in a Disney movie, all your friendly forest friends are time stopped and so can't help prevent you from tumbling down a ravine.

This is why all of your wizards die, because they do not prepare for common, foreseeable occurrences, let alone the unthinkable ones.

And quite frankly, the idea that the people who invested all the time to train you to use unlimited power for their benefit are going to give you the freedom to cast a time stop spell and then cast who knows what outside of their watchful eyes is... highly unlikely. You need an organization that is wide and smart enough to identify and train these temporary demigods but dumb enough to let them out of their sight for days at a time, let alone seconds (they're too rare and valuable to be outside of anything other than the world's equivalent of Fort Knox).

Hi I'm 22 and I've never broken a bone. Also, personally when *I'm* practically bed-ridden I almost never go wandering around ravines. Kinda weird that you do really.

Also the scope of the magic was specifically "you can do anything but change the way magic works", so no, the magical constructs created for the express purpose of taking care of and interacting with the wizard during his time stop CAN be immune to the time stop and CAN have a blanket "incapable of harming the creator, or allowing the creator to come to harm" rule. I don't know why you're choosing to ignore the already laid out preparations, the fact that obviously more thought would be put into it if it was a reality but most of all the fact that this magic is capable of literally anything except changing itself and thus could not possible lose to you in a "nah uh because X improbable event" contest. This is literal fiat magic. "I cast a spell that prevents any of the consequences of magic working this way from inconveniencing me" is an option, even. Can it make you not need a year to recover? No. But it can absolutely, magically, find a way to make that not matter. This is wish making magic without any possibility of a malevolent interpreter.

Friv
2015-02-18, 12:31 AM
Hi I'm 22 and I've never broken a bone. Also, personally when *I'm* practically bed-ridden I almost never go wandering around ravines. Kinda weird that you do really.

When you're bed-ridden, you presumably get your food from your kitchen. You don't have to go to the store, let alone make it yourself. The reason this bed-ridden child is ending up in danger is because you can't physically leave enough food nearby in a time-stopped world to eat for a year without anyone around taking care of them, especially if the child in question is 10.

One year is 365 days, which is 1095 meals that this kid is going to have to scavenge while still being desperately ill and without caretakers. Where are those meals coming from?

Erik Vale
2015-02-18, 12:51 AM
The automatons who are immune to time stop and hunting all the wild beasts while their frozen in time because your first year is occurring over a second.

This'll cause a 'small' problem. Something about even animals needing time to replenish their numbers.




You could make a breeding animal that's immune to such spells however, along with food plants. However they may be put off by time stopping, causing things like constant daylight and... Oh yea, another problem, you've just run out of water, and how is light reacting with you? You'd quickly end up blind because you've used up all the light already.

Gavran
2015-02-18, 12:56 AM
When you're bed-ridden, you presumably get your food from your kitchen. You don't have to go to the store, let alone make it yourself. The reason this bed-ridden child is ending up in danger is because you can't physically leave enough food nearby in a time-stopped world to eat for a year without anyone around taking care of them, especially if the child in question is 10.

One year is 365 days, which is 1095 meals that this kid is going to have to scavenge while still being desperately ill and without caretakers. Where are those meals coming from?

First of all, 1095 meals is hugely overkill for someone who spends most of their time sleeping. Secondly, it's actually "can barely get out of bed", so getting some pre-made food is no big deal. Thirdly, and most importantly magic. Whether that's magical replenishing food, part of an "elevate me above all physical needs" spell, the result of an earlier wizard's spell to turn humans into perfect efficiency machines or whatever is completely irrelevant, because magic with no limit other than "can't change how magic works" is capable of all of the above and infinitely more solutions to any problem you can come up with.

In regards to controlling authorities, if you're a PC you have the freedom to do these things. If you don't you're not a PC. These are the things that would happen if one were a PC wizard. I much earlier specified that the most likely outcomes are, given awareness of how magic works and a way to detect those who can use it, brainwashed wizard children or wizard genocide.


You'd quickly end up blind because you've used up all the light already.

Sure. And psh, light? How about air? And while we're at it, no wizard could ever cast a Fireball because hey all that energy has to come from somewhere right? Or, hell, you can't cast Fireball because magic isn't real dummy!

There's a point where you have to accept that magic is and allows one to defy the way things work in real life. You have passed that point. You have won the argument that stopping time sure has a whole lot of wrinkles in real life that we can't even begin to address. Unfortunately, the topic is actually about a fantasy world where nigh-omnipotent magic exists to iron out every single one of those wrinkles. My apologies for not listing out every detail of what a Time Stop spell would need to function. Bear in mind however, that it is well established that spells don't just do one thing; that when you cast a spell it magically does every individual action required to achieve its effect. Again - this is nigh-limitless magic. I don't need to, and I will no longer continue providing obvious answers to irrelevant problems like running out of wildlife. I am completely confident you can imagine a way that can be solved. You even started to do so, only to make up another problem with different specifics that can also be trivially solved by magic.

Edit:

And again - nobody is saying this would be fun, or that they would try to do this in a game*. You are presenting a logic problem, and it is being solved. It isn't power-gaming, or TO, or anything remotely gamist because all elements of "game" in the sense of tabletop RPG game are strictly prohibited. The only game remaining is "how do I overcome these obstacles?" And the answer, obviously, is "with magic."

*I realize the question was "would you play a wizard with these rules", and some people did say yes, but I'm pretty certain that if you asked those people "Hey, remember that theoretical thread about really inconvenient magic? Do you want to spend a few hours playing that game?" they would all answer no, because what they really meant is that they could see a way to overcome the negatives.

Erik Vale
2015-02-18, 01:31 AM
Sure. And psh, light? How about air? And while we're at it, no wizard could ever cast a Fireball because hey all that energy has to come from somewhere right? Or, hell, you can't cast Fireball because magic isn't real dummy!

I've no problem with that.

But, the spell only slowed time. We're pointing out all the reasons you've got to think beyond that, all the fiddly little planning bits that if you don't do, cause you to turn up a second later as a corpse which has been dead for some time, which make everyone else think 'perhaps we shouldn't f*** with time'.

This, of course, makes it infinitely harder for children to become gods, because assuming they think of stopping time, they're not going to think of such things. As I've said, at this point, they're not PC's, they're national treasures.

Earthwalker
2015-02-18, 05:57 AM
Ok I have to try to post the dullest answer in this thread wish me luck.....

Basically what is the GM trying to achieve as part of this set up ?
I can't answer the question would I play a mage without hearing what the GM has in mind. Is the plan we all play a mage and fight it out with rounds of the battle playing out a year at a time (or one spell)

Is the point mages are so weak that you have a flock of characters like Ars magica and you all play one wizard but have others to switch to when its not time ot play your one spells.

Or perhaps Wizards are just forces of nature that kick off the plot for normal people.

I would play a wizard if the intent was for players to be wizards. Judging by the setup, Wizards are suppose to be a playable class.

Raimun
2015-02-20, 05:52 AM
There's no difference between "badass normality" and "superpowers" when it comes to turning them off. All it takes to depower Batman is anything that could take him out long enough for someone to give him a spinal injury and then bye bye "badass normal".


Which begs the question why it has only been done once in all of Batman's history, given that he's been captured a bazillion times.

Yes, there is a difference. For example, think of it like it is an Antimagic Field from D&D. Sp and Su abilities don't work there but Ex abilities do work. Imagine a fight between a Wizard and a Barbarian in Antimagic Field and neither can leave it.

In Marvel, there exist various prisons for villains who are way more dangerous than your basic bank robbers. Those prisons have various methods that nullify the supernatural powers of the inmates. No magic, no flying, no eyebeams. Devices and gadgets are also taken away. Even super strength can be effectively "turned off". In these prisons, the guys at the top of the food chain are those guys who don't have superpowers or devices but have instead trained themselves to near superhuman level. That includes guys such as Batroc the Leaper who aren't such a threat outside. Even Batroc is very scary if you are a normal human... or a de-powered superhuman.

For this thread's purpose, the mage is de-powered for most of the year. It should be pretty easy to imprison several such guys, even if you can't reshape reality but could hold your own against Batman in a fist fight.

Vitruviansquid
2015-02-20, 06:13 AM
So you are stuck in a situation where the most effective character is also the least fun to play.

What you have in this child-wizard business is a bad game design that I wouldn't play to begin with, but if pressed, I'd say I would try really hard to not play the child-wizard, but make someone else play it on the sly.

Cazero
2015-02-20, 06:42 AM
Since nobody did it yet :

Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use.
Unless you consider your kids magic as a plot device specific to your game world and not game mechanics, what you have here is bad design. You should not give a player the possibility to play as a wizard kid if that is how magic works. And even then, the players might see it as nothing more than a GM fiat factory.

molten_dragon
2015-02-20, 07:09 AM
So, if you are playing in this setting, would you ever play a wizard?

Sort of.

I'd play a wizard, who, a year and a day before the campaign started, cast a spell giving him an adult body and making him the world's greatest X (X be a swordsman, a thief, whatever it was I wanted to play). Then ignore the fact that I ever had magic in the first place, and play a mundane character who just so happens to be the best in the world at whatever it is he does.

In fact, I would assume this would be what the majority of wizards in this setting would use their final spell for. To set them up for life once they could no longer use magic.

Talakeal
2015-02-20, 01:41 PM
So you are stuck in a situation where the most effective character is also the least fun to play.

What you have in this child-wizard business is a bad game design that I wouldn't play to begin with, but if pressed, I'd say I would try really hard to not play the child-wizard, but make someone else play it on the sly.

It certainly is.

Again, not actually planning on running this campaign, just a thought experiment to see what people would choose.



Sort of.

I'd play a wizard, who, a year and a day before the campaign started, cast a spell giving him an adult body and making him the world's greatest X (X be a swordsman, a thief, whatever it was I wanted to play). Then ignore the fact that I ever had magic in the first place, and play a mundane character who just so happens to be the best in the world at whatever it is he does.

In fact, I would assume this would be what the majority of wizards in this setting would use their final spell for. To set them up for life once they could no longer use magic.

Keep in mind that a wizard could also use a spell to make them younger if they didn't want to retire. There is also nothing stopping a character who doesn't have "wizard" in their background from being the best swordsman in the world, or even receiving gifts from a friendly wizard to augment his abilities.

Grim Portent
2015-02-20, 02:13 PM
So if all wizards are children with the power to bend reality how long is it till everyone's dog has turned into a T-Rex, brushing your teeth is replaced with lightsaber duels, and puberty is replaced with metamorphosing into a Robo-Dragon-Wizard-Ninja-Ghost?

Segev
2015-02-20, 02:24 PM
Am I the only one who interpreted the "kid or gift goes away" bit to combine with the "years of training" bit such that it meant you had to start training as a little kid, or the gift faded before you were able to harness it, but that it was still adult wizards?



Also, if "kids only" is the rule, then the first thing any kids in my wizard school would learn to cast is the "kid forever" spell. Followed by the "resume aging" spell, so that they have the option of growing up if they want. (I'm not about to have almighty children running around who are bitter at me for 'trapping' them as children.)

kaoskonfety
2015-02-20, 02:32 PM
So if all wizards are children with the power to bend reality how long is it till everyone's dog has turned into a T-Rex, brushing your teeth is replaced with lightsaber duels, and puberty is replaced with metamorphosing into a Robo-Dragon-Wizard-Ninja-Ghost?

Yesterday, you didn't notice because the young wizard didn't want to get in trouble for it, so no one will ever notice but him.

dps
2015-02-20, 08:51 PM
If you're going to actually role-play this, the first spell cast should be "Infinite Candy" or something of that nature, because, well, little kid.

And no, I wouldn't want to play a wizard, 'cause I do like to actually role-play instead of just looking for loop-holes in the mechanics.

JNAProductions
2015-02-21, 12:20 AM
You know, it might be kinda fun to play as a wizard who was hiding his powers. Staying away from governments, cults, everything, and developing your other skills to get by.

You could still "use" magic, too. Use sleight-of-hand tricks to pretend to do magic to scare people, threaten a curse upon people, all that kind of thing. And perhaps at some point in the campaign, you'd find something worth using a spell for... And get captured/killed because of it.

So it'd be fun to play as a non-magical wizard. Discworld good times.

jguy
2015-02-21, 09:59 AM
This actually sounds like a good idea for the start of a campaign or creating a homebrew world with your players. This is my idea;

1.) Gather all your players and explain the rules of magic.
2.) Each player is a 5 year old just about to cast their first spell. None of the players know what the others are casting, telling the DM in secret. Only rule is they cannot kill other players with a spell or change the rules to magic.
3.) After every round of spells, the DM will state obvious world changes to the players i.e dogs are now dinosaurs
4.) In total, every character gets 8 spells

After everything is done the players roll up different characters and they play in the world they just made. Would be very interesting what happens.

BeerMug Paladin
2015-02-21, 10:24 AM
I could see this working as a way for characters to have superpowers. Like the suit of armor others have mentioned, but, you know. Kid imaginations, so it'll probably take that form instead. Essentially just continuous spell effects that re-cast themselves if they're ever somehow dispelled and have a lifelong duration.

If I had that kind of power when I was a kid, I'd probably have to live the rest of my life with some weird set of mostly incompatable superpowers. And the result probably wouldn't be pleasant. But as a character, that could be a lot of fun.

Like others have mentioned, being an ex-wizard would be more ideal than being a wizard. A wizard in this world seem like a plot device more than a character to me.

I also imagine this setting would be dark. Extremely dark. Kids can be easily controlled by adults and said adults could have an agenda that is completely not in the kids' best interest. I don't know if that's the angle you'd actually develop it, it just seems like an obvious implication of the setting's basic rules. If a BBEG isn't doing this, I'd almost expect a player to do it. You know, that player...

faustin
2015-02-21, 11:02 AM
Sounds pretty much like Pendragon magic system: Cast a spell and spend the rest of the year (or more) sleeping. Unless you dont mind losing a bit of your lifespan.
Anyway, the system was abandoned in 5th edition because everyone agreed such magic worked better as a NPC stuff.