Archivist staying behind

[weckar]

Hey playground. I'm looking for some advice regarding the Archivist in our party.

Currently our party makeup consists of:
Warforged Cleric/Wizard/Theurge (early entry 3)
Elf Marshal/Warlock
Human Rogue
Fire Elf Archivist

Unfortunately, the Archivist is falling behind (while the warlock is pulling WAY ahead, competence-wise). This is, in my opinion, because the character is being played like a nerfed cleric: The character makes no attempt to seek out extra spells off the cleric list, and never uses their Dark Knowledge. I literally cannot think of a single think of a trick the straight cleric could not do better. Add to that the fact that the most used spell on her list is the Cure line, and we've got a dead weight bingo.

Now, I'd like to help her. Like for one of the other players, this is her first character (another is also a new player, but died and learned a lot from that). So, I'd hate for her to have to nix it. Instead, I want some advice for the character to grow.... somehow. Current CL is 5.

[pi4t]

Try suggesting some good spells the archivist could learn and a cleric couldn't, or could only get via domains? For instance, you might like to highlight fly (travel domain), haste (time domain), web (adept), or the silent image/major image/etc line of spells (divine bard). Don't overload the player with options, just point out a couple of the nicest spells and suggest they try learning them. If you're the GM, it might also be worth having the party fight an enemy archivist. The PC should then be able to loot the enemy's prayerbook, and have the spells known at least.

[Chronos]

Are you the GM or one of the other players? The Archivist's power depends enormously on how easy the DM makes it to get ahold of new spells. Unfortunately this is rather difficult to calibrate: It's a small step from "gimped cleric" to "armored wizard+ who can also heal". Maybe introduce an NPC adept who wants to help out the party by sharing her magical traditions?

The other important question is, is this bothering the archivist's player? Maybe she's not seeking out any more spells because she's happy with being a gimped cleric. I've known players who only make use of a fraction of their characters' capabilities because they like keeping it simple, and who take offense when others at the table point out ways they can be stronger. It took me a while to realize that if they were having fun, I shouldn't butt in.

[Wacky89]

1st
Identify (Oracle)
Entangle (Plant) or Druid
Grease (Slime)
Sleep (Dream)

2nd
Splinterbolt Druid
Secret Page (Rune)
Scorching Ray Adept
Divine Insight
Demoncall (Demonic) or Blackguard

3rd
Lightning Bolt Adept
Haste and Fly has been mentioned

[atemu1234]

1st
Identify (Oracle)
Entangle (Plant) or Druid
Grease (Slime)
Sleep (Dream)

2nd
Splinterbolt Druid
Secret Page (Rune)
Scorching Ray Adept
Divine Insight
Demoncall (Demonic) or Blackguard

3rd
Lightning Bolt Adept
Haste and Fly has been mentioned

Also, even without these, summon monster spells are extremely useful.

[weckar]

The summon monster spells WOULD be useful, but not as a bunch of owls barely being meatshields (and of course only ever used in combat).

To describe the player a little: She's not really into roleplaying - actually complaining about it when others do it too much - and really sees the game at its best when its going from one combat to the next. I'm otherwise not really sure whether she's enjoying it or not, but often complains about being overshadowed by the warlock (the only other female player, not that it matters).

I'm a player in this scenario, but I've been trying to help the DM out to the degree that I'm effectively playing a DMPC.

[atemu1234]

The summon monster spells WOULD be useful, but not as a bunch of owls barely being meatshields (and of course only ever used in combat).

To describe the player a little: She's not really into roleplaying - actually complaining about it when others do it too much - and really sees the game at its best when its going from one combat to the next. I'm otherwise not really sure whether she's enjoying it or not, but often complains about being overshadowed by the warlock (the only other female player, not that it matters).

I'm a player in this scenario, but I've been trying to help the DM out to the degree that I'm effectively playing a DMPC.

Well, in this case I think you need to explain the definition of Tabletop ROLEPLAYING Game.

[Rebel7284]

Well, in this case I think you need to explain the definition of Tabletop ROLEPLAYING Game.

Eh? there is no wrong way to enjoy D&D as long as everyone is having fun. I enjoy the combat simulation aspect of the game more than I enjoy most of the roleplaying as well.

If she is more into mechanics she is more likely to be into mechanical optimization, you may need to show her a few threads about why being the party healer is often a pointless thing in D&D. Also, Treantmonk's guide to being a god is applicable to Archivists.

Also, you can have her learn the Close Wounds spell so she can heal as an immediate action while contributing in more effective ways with her standard actions.

Additionally, getting a few healing belts may highlight the whole "no, really, we have this covered" angle. :)

[atemu1234]

Eh? there is no wrong way to enjoy D&D as long as everyone is having fun. I enjoy the combat simulation aspect of the game more than I enjoy most of the roleplaying as well.

If she is more into mechanics she is more likely to be into mechanical optimization, you may need to show her a few threads about why being the party healer is often a pointless thing in D&D. Also, Treantmonk's guide to being a god is applicable to Archivists.

Also, you can have her learn the Close Wounds spell so she can heal as an immediate action while contributing in more effective ways with her standard actions.

Additionally, getting a few healing belts may highlight the whole "no, really, we have this covered" angle. :)

My distaste is complaining about others roleplaying.

[Rebel7284]

My distaste is complaining about others roleplaying.

Quite reasonable. In which case, she may need a gentle reminder about being a compassionate human being, not specifically about D&D.

[Sam K]

The summon monster spells WOULD be useful, but not as a bunch of owls barely being meatshields (and of course only ever used in combat).

To describe the player a little: She's not really into roleplaying - actually complaining about it when others do it too much - and really sees the game at its best when its going from one combat to the next. I'm otherwise not really sure whether she's enjoying it or not, but often complains about being overshadowed by the warlock (the only other female player, not that it matters).

I'm a player in this scenario, but I've been trying to help the DM out to the degree that I'm effectively playing a DMPC.

Well, a new player that likes combat and doesn't have much system mastery really will struggle with an archivist. It's a character that shines with a bit of system mastery. If she's also feeling overshadowed by a warlock, it seems like what she really wants is overt, "blasty" magic. Psion, sorc and warlock may all be better choices, as they involve less abilities to keep track of. Or maybe favored soul, if she wants the divine magic flavor.

This is just me guessing though. The best solution is to ask her what she wants to do? What would a great combat scenario involve for her?

[Sian]

yeah, theres probably a good bit of 'square peg, round hole' going on here. Archivist needs a fair share of system mastery, and the distance between floor and ceiling is among the highest (together with Wizard, Cleric and Psion), as it demands knowledge of which spells would be nice to have, that clerics are unable to grab easily.

Maybe a Blasty Sorcerer (or maybe even better Warmage, prehaps with the DM tweaking the spell list slightly, taking into account some of the lacking bits and newer books), or even a Dragonfire Adept might be a better bet.

Arrange a wand of *inset cure xxxxx wounds* to fall in the lap of the Theurge or the Rogue, and the healing wouldn't suffer that much

[TechnoWarforged]

Some Spells you can get earlier via Domain or Alternate Class.

Level 1
Impeding Stones
Winged Watcher
Aspect of the Wolf
Lesser Restoration

Level 2
Primal Instinct
Close Wounds
Creeping Cold
Mass Snake Swiftness
Blinding Spittle
Blood Snow (never had a chance to use this one, sadly)


Level 3
Haste
Fly
Charm Monster
Mass Conviction
Mass Resist Energy
Animated Dead


Serious if you are really power gaming by the time you get access to level 3 spells you should have an army of undead and various monsters you charmed following you, plus whatever you choose to summon via the summon/Nature's ally line.