A few odd things about Tiamat in Rise of Tiamat

[supergoji18]

Looking through the Rise of Tiamat book, I noticed some odd things about Tiamat's stat block:

1. She is considered a Fiend rather than a Dragon
2. Her Alignment is Chaotic Evil instead of the normal Lawful Evil
3. She has less health than the Tarrasque (not really that odd, but just saying)

Any reason for why these are so?

[JAL_1138]

1) Because she's an evil goddess who lives in hell; the Fiend categorization arguably reflects that better than "dragon," even though she's the five-headed dragon goddess of evil dragons.

2) There's no excuse for it as far as I'm concerned. Then again, I've refused to accept any changes to D&D cosmology that came after 2e, so I'm not the best source there.

3) The Tarrasque is an actual, live monster, whereas the "Tiamat" you fight is presumably the avatar of a goddess, not the actual goddess, and that's simply the most powerful avatar she could manifest at the time? I don't have the module yet, but in older material most of the time you ever fought a deity, you only fought its avatar, unless you went to its home plane.

[asorel]

As far as her being Chaotic rather than Lawful, I would think that that change was decided upon in light of the alignment of Bahamut, and the respective alignments of Chromatic and Metallic dragons.

Most Metallic dragons are Lawful, and their god is also Lawful. In contrast, most Chromatic dragons are Chaotic, and it makes sense for their god to be Chaotic.

[Inevitability]

As far as her being Chaotic rather than Lawful, I would think that that change was decided upon in light of the alignment of Bahamut, and the respective alignments of Chromatic and Metallic dragons.

Most Metallic dragons are Lawful, and their god is also Lawful. In contrast, most Chromatic dragons are Chaotic, and it makes sense for their god to be Chaotic.

Except the PHB also lists her as LE. Weird.

[Shining Wrath]

IIRC the PHB or DMG (AFB) mentions Tiamat as being held prisoner by Asmodeus on the first level of the Nine Hells.

[Envyus]

The DMG and PHB say she is Lawful Evil. Meaning Chaotic Evil was just a mistake.

She still has free domain and can move around freely on the first layer of Hell but she can't leave it with out being summoned and the like.

[asorel]

The DMG and PHB say she is Lawful Evil. Meaning Chaotic Evil was just a mistake.

She still has free domain and can move around freely on the first layer of Hell but she can't leave it with out being summoned and the like.

Huh. I've always assumed Tiamat was CE, due to the chromatic/metallic and Bahamut/Tiamat disparities I mentioned earlier. Also, there's this from the PHB in the Dragonborn section:


Dragonborn tend to extremes, making a conscious choice for one side or the other in the cosmic war between Good and Evil.

It obviously doesn't make any explicit remarks, but the reference towards extremes implies complete opposites in the alignment spectrum.

[JAL_1138]

The DMG and PHB say she is Lawful Evil. Meaning Chaotic Evil was just a mistake.

She still has free domain and can move around freely on the first layer of Hell but she can't leave it with out being summoned and the like.

In AD&D she sent her avatar to the material plane on occasion to consult with dragons or burninate the heck out of places. I looked her avatar up in Monster Mythology and it had less HP than Big T back then--160 to Big T's 300. On the other hand its heads had a lot of HP separate from the main body's, its AC was through the roof (or, since it was AD&D, under the basement--negative 12!), it had a great THAC0 on bite attacks, and good lord could it breath-weapon the heck out of you--and then on top of that cast spells like a small army of high level wizards and priests.

So...aside from the Chaotic Evil typo, from what I've heard of her stats in 5e it seems pretty much like classic Tiamat.

[Envyus]

Still she has always been Lawful Evil.

[JAL_1138]

Still she has always been Lawful Evil.

I never said she wasn't, but edited my post for clarity anyhow. Monster Mythology calls her "profoundly" Lawful Evil, and On Hallowed Ground gave a fair amount of detail about how she was involved with the first layer of Baator.

[supergoji18]

So It was just Tiamat's Avatar being summoned? Odd, I thought it was the actual Tiamat.

[Envyus]

So It was just Tiamat's Avatar being summoned? Odd, I thought it was the actual Tiamat.

No it's the real one. Lesser Gods can be fought Greater Gods are the ones out of reach, but they can create avatars of them that are around the power of Lesser Gods.

[JAL_1138]

So It was just Tiamat's Avatar being summoned? Odd, I thought it was the actual Tiamat.

I'm just an AD&D grognard basing my comments on the TSR-era cosmology; they can be safely ignored for 5e unless you just really, really, really want to keep continuity with old versions of the settings and rules now that they've rolled back to something more closely approximating it. Back in the day, the stats you got in the Monster Mythology splatbook (a great resource even now to add depth to monster groups, especially clerics, cultists, and the like) were repeatedly stated to be for her avatar--Lesser Deities had them too, and the most a mortal could possibly do was banish / dissipate any deity's avatars and/or true form (in the case of demigods, some of whom had no avatars) for a time--only another god, the complete loss of any and all worship anywhere, or the Lady of Pain could truly kill off a god, according to various and sundry splatbooks from back then.

[Envyus]

Well with Lesser Gods you still can't kill them. They just go back to their Domain and reform after a while. Greater Gods can't be interacted with it forms other then their avatars which are as powerful as Lesser Gods.

[JAL_1138]

Well with Lesser Gods you still can't kill them. They just go back to their Domain and reform after a while. Greater Gods can't be interacted with it forms other then their avatars which are as powerful as Lesser Gods.

As a gen'ral rule, basher, if ya get a Power piked off at ya, either head for the Spire or the Cage quick as you can, or yer gonna get lost. Blue bolt from the heavens, as the Old Scriptures say. Tryin' ta put a Power in the dead-book? That's just barmy, berk. Barmy as a spire-climb.

[Naanomi]

Maybe Chaotic represents her maddened state after being summoned? When she calms down in sure she will drift back to her Lawful nature

[RulesJD]

Looking through the Rise of Tiamat book, I noticed some odd things about Tiamat's stat block:

1. She is considered a Fiend rather than a Dragon
2. Her Alignment is Chaotic Evil instead of the normal Lawful Evil
3. She has less health than the Tarrasque (not really that odd, but just saying)

Any reason for why these are so?

It's so Paladins can get that extra Smite damage.

[M Placeholder]

Her allies, the Githyanki Lich Queen and Kurtulmak, are both Lawful Evil, so I guess it would make sense that Tiamat is too. As for the stats, I take the view that gods shouldn't be statted, and the maximum level for anything that the players can actually kill is Level 50 (The Dragon of Tyr and Dregoth the Dragon Kaisharga from Dark Sun).

As for the allignment, CE is a mistake.

[Chronos]

Quoth JAL_1138:

In AD&D she sent her avatar to the material plane on occasion to consult with dragons or burninate the heck out of places.
And to meltinate the heck out of them, and gaginate, and zapinate, and freezeinate.

[M Placeholder]

And to meltinate the heck out of them, and gaginate, and zapinate, and freezeinate.

Oh yeah, if you go by the idea that Tiamat is Takhisis, she appeared on the prime to scorchinate large parts of Krynn.

[JAL_1138]

Oh yeah, if you go by the idea that Tiamat is Takhisis, she appeared on the prime to scorchinate large parts of Krynn.

I'm going by what the 2e book says about sending her avatar as described therein--which they call out as statted way too low for use in Dragonlance as a representation of Takhisis. It also says Bahamut, rather than Paladine, tries to stop her from destroying places when she does. So...not just on Krynn.

The Tiamat-as-Takhisis thing is a bit weird when you delve into it. The histories and relative power are different, even though they're pretty clearly the same entity (like Paladine and Bahamut). Tracy Hickman calls them different despite the blatant similarities--I think he always intended Dragonlance to be an alternate-universe sort of deal that wouldn't be connected up to other settings. I can't for the life of me remember how/if the Planescape books like On Hallowed Ground or Guide to Hell addressed it, though.

[keeblrkid]

My take on the following is.


1. She is considered a Fiend rather than a Dragon

I assume that if for some reason we ever saw stats for Moradin or Corellon, that they would be considered Celestials instead of Humanoids. Its just a way to make sure that the audience understands that the creature is divine and it ensures that the new mechanics for the dispel and detect good/evil spells work.


2. Her Alignment is Chaotic Evil instead of the normal Lawful Evil

Her use in the adventure is almost exclusively going to be a short appearance. This makes me think that the alignment applies to her based on the context of the adventure more than anything else. She is fresh out of the hells and about to betray Severin afterall.


3. She has less health than the Tarrasque (not really that odd, but just saying)

I think that this has everything to do with discorporation. If you use 4e logic, gods discorporated at half hp. This kind of makes me think that thematically discorporation is an involuntary survival tactic used the first moment the god fears its own mortality (something a god would rarely, if ever have to deal with). But as a designer, why would you need the HP the players are never going to see even mentioned in the stat block. Thus, discorporation happens at zero now.

Thats my two copper anyway.