shillelagh + bladelock lifedrinker

[dev6500]

Assuming you get have both shillelagh and lifedrinker ability (lore bard 6, warlock 12 or whatever). You could also go druid 1 but I suspect that you would only be able to use your druid casting stat(wisdom) if you get it that way.

would you add your charisma bonus to weapon damage twice? Shillelagh says you can use your spellcasting ability in place of strength for attack and damage rolls and lifedrinker says when you hit a creature with your pact weapon, the creature takes extra necrotic damage equal to your charisma modifier.

These 2 abilities give you charisma to damage in 2 different ways. Shillelagh allows you to replace strength with a spellcasting stat in the normal attack roll and damage calculation formula. Lifedrinker allows you to add necrotic damage on top of your normal damage with a weapon equal to your charisma modifier.

Any details I am missing?

[CrusaderJoe]

Assuming you get have both shillelagh and lifedrinker ability (lore bard 6, warlock 12 or whatever). You could also go druid 1 but I suspect that you would only be able to use your druid casting stat(wisdom) if you get it that way.

would you add your charisma bonus to weapon damage twice? Shillelagh says you can use your spellcasting ability in place of strength for attack and damage rolls and lifedrinker says when you hit a creature with your pact weapon, the creature takes extra necrotic damage equal to your charisma modifier.

These 2 abilities give you charisma to damage in 2 different ways. Shillelagh allows you to replace strength with a spellcasting stat in the normal attack roll and damage calculation formula. Lifedrinker allows you to add necrotic damage on top of your normal damage with a weapon equal to your charisma modifier.

Any details I am missing?

Doesn't stack on damage but it would allow you to keep Cha to attack and damage. Life drinker is redundant.

It's like having extra attack from fighter, barbarian, and paladin. You only get to attack twice per attack action. Things just don't stack that much.

[calebrus]

Any details I am missing?

The only thing that you're missing is that this ability doesn't come online until level 12 at the earliest.
So if you were planning on dumping Str because of this, if you wanted to hit anything in melee (and as a bladelock, I assume that you would) you'd need to build for Dex and use a finesse weapon until you get Lifedrinker.


Doesn't stack on damage but it would allow you to keep Cha to attack and damage. Life drinker is redundant.

Disagree.
Using a stat for attack and damage, and adding a particular modifier worth of necrotic damage are two different things. As written, you'd get Cha to attack and Cha to damage, then Cha necrotic damage on top of that.

[CrusaderJoe]

Disagree.
Using a stat for attack and damage, and adding a particular modifier to damage are two different things. As written, you'd get Cha to attack and Cha*2 to damage.

So the rule works for every single aspect within a rules system except for ability score to damage? Bull.

It's one thing if an ability gives different modifiers to damage, but the same modifier? No. That is stacking the same effect and this game's core is very much against it.

[calebrus]

So the rule works for every single aspect within a rules system except for ability score to damage? Bull.

It's one thing if an ability gives different modifiers to damage, but the same modifier? No. That is stacking the same effect and this game's core is very much against it.

It's not stacking anything in any way.
One uses a stat for melee weapon damage.
The other uses a stat for necrotic damage.
The fact that it's the same stat is irrelevant, because they're two different things, and as such are not stacking in any way.

edit:
If it said "you add your Cha mod to damage" then you'd be right.
But it doesn't say that.
It says "the creature takes extra necrotic damage equal to your Cha mod."

[CrusaderJoe]

It's not stacking anything in any way.
One uses a stat for melee weapon damage.
The other uses a stat for necrotic damage.
The fact that it's the same stat is irrelevant, because they're two different things, and as such are not stacking in any way.

edit:
If it said "you add your Cha mod to damage" then you'd be right.
But it doesn't say that.
It says "the creature takes extra necrotic damage equal to your Cha mod."

You are still stacking Cha mod damage.

Now life drinker would change it to necrotic, but due to stacking it still would be +cha mod to damage.

Stacking is stacking, no matter how you try to abuse it.

[Easy_Lee]

It's not stacking anything in any way.
One uses a stat for melee weapon damage.
The other uses a stat for necrotic damage.
The fact that it's the same stat is irrelevant, because they're two different things, and as such are not stacking in any way.

This is correct. They're different sources of damage. Saying they don't stack would be like saying that a magic weapon's attack bonus doesn't stack with your own attack stat and proficiency.

That said, there's really no good way for a blade lock to get CHA shillelagh. Druids cast using wisdom, and the pact that allows a warlock to add cantrips to his spell list and cast them as a warlock cannot be taken if one takes blade pact. One would need some kind of bard multiclass for this to work, unless I'm missing something.

A bard multiclass for valor bard's combat magic, allowing the blade pact warlock to attack as a bonus action after casting a spell, might not be a bad endgame build, though, but it might be tricky to level such a character. I suspect one would want to take the bard levels first.

[calebrus]

Stacking is stacking, no matter how you try to abuse it.

I'll say this one more time and then I'm done here.
You're not stacking anything.

It isn't +Cha attack, +cha*2 damage.
It's +Cha attack, +Cha damage +X necrotic damage (where X just happens to be Cha mod).
There's no stacking going on here.

[CrusaderJoe]

This is correct. They're different sources of damage. Saying they don't stack would be like saying that a magic weapon's attack bonus doesn't stack with your own attack stat and proficiency.

That said, there's really no good way for a blade lock to get CHA shillelagh. Druids cast using wisdom, and the pact that allows a warlock to add cantrips to his spell list and cast them as a warlock cannot be taken if one takes blade pact. One would need some kind of bard multiclass for this to work, unless I'm missing something.

A bard multiclass for valor bard's combat magic, allowing the blade pact warlock to attack as a bonus action after casting a spell, might not be a bad endgame build, though, but it might be tricky to level such a character. I suspect one would want to take the bard levels first.

Magic Initiate technically (because of wording of Cantrip) would give it to you as a Cha casting.

The cantrip has weird wording.

[xyianth]

This trick does work, but there are better ways to pull it off. A devotion paladin 11/tomelock 3 using shillelagh, great weapon master, and polearm master gets 2d8+cha per hit and can offset the -5 attack from great weapon master with his sacred weapon ability for an extra +10 per hit. (no stacking required, polearm bonus hit is 1d4+1d8+cha) An oathbreaker paladin instead does 2d8+cha+cha per hit all the time. Both get the benefit of paladin's extra attack, aura of protection, divine smite, lay on hands, etc...

The key to remember is that the two highlights of blade pact warlocks are thirsting blade and life drinker. Paladins get extra attack (completely replacing thirsting blade) and improved divine smite. (+1d8 averages to +4.5, comparable to life drinker's +cha)

[calebrus]

I was assuming from the original question that some homebrew was involved to allow him to have both, and answered as such.


Magic Initiate technically (because of wording of Cantrip) would give it to you as a Cha casting.

The cantrip has weird wording.

Disagree once again.
Magic Initiate specifies that the casting stat used is based on the spell list you chose from. If you choose a Cleric or Druid spell, you use Wis.

[dev6500]

I was assuming from the original question that some homebrew was involved to allow him to have both, and answered as such.



Disagree once again.
Magic Initiate specifies that the casting stat used is based on the spell list you chose from. If you choose a Cleric or Druid spell, you use Wis.

Agree on Magic Initiate sadly. It states what your spell casting stat for that cantrip is.

I am doing a little homebrew. My DM didn't want me to go the fiend patron (evil connotations might cause party issues) so I went the fey patron route which is slightly weaker. Since the flavor of the archfey patron already has a nature theme, he let me pick shillelagh as one of my cantrips which really helps with the MAD issues I was facing as a bladelock. But outside of homebrew, 6 levels of bard appeared to be the only route to get this to work.

[Easy_Lee]

Disagree once again.
Magic Initiate specifies that the casting stat used is based on the spell list you chose from. If you choose a Cleric or Druid spell, you use Wis.

Right. If it were otherwise, then the build for a proper blade pact warlock would be much simpler.

As is, the best way to build this PC is to start with a variant human fighter, take please polearm mastery, focus STR and CHA with heavy armor, then take warlock 19.

If there were a way to use a q staff with DEX, pickup shillelagh as a warlock cantrip as a blade lock, a way to have two pact weapons for dual wield, or if there were another bonus attack feat which warlocks could use with a finesse weapon, then this issue could more easily be mitigated.

[xyianth]

Right. If it were otherwise, then the build for a proper blade pact warlock would be much simpler.

As is, the best way to build this PC is to start with a variant human fighter, take please mastery, focus STR and CHA with heavy armor, then take warlock 19.

If there were a way to use a q staff with DEX, pickup shillelagh as a warlock cantrip as a blade lock, a way to have two pact weapons for dual wield, or if there were another bonus attack feat which warlocks could use with a finesse weapon, then this issue could more easily be mitigated.

What is please mastery? (is that supposed to be polearm mastery?)

As to the other options, there is a way to use dex with a quarterstaff, and get a bonus action attack out of it as well: a monk 1 dip. In fact, the monk 1/fighter 1/warlock 18 makes a very fine dex based bladelock. (fighter 1 is used to pick up dueling style, shields, and second wind) You don't need polearm mastery for the attack, since monk 1 gives you a 1d4+dex bonus action attack for free. You also get unarmed defense so a decent wis score can offset light armor AC. This build works fine without requiring you to be human. (wood elf and half-elf would both be great choices)

[Easy_Lee]

What is please mastery? (is that supposed to be polearm mastery?)

As to the other options, there is a way to use dex with a quarterstaff, and get a bonus action attack out of it as well: a monk 1 dip. In fact, the monk 1/fighter 1/warlock 18 makes a very fine dex based bladelock. (fighter 1 is used to pick up dueling style, shields, and second wind) You don't need polearm mastery for the attack, since monk 1 gives you a 1d4+dex bonus action attack for free. You also get unarmed defense so a decent wis score can offset light armor AC. This build works fine without requiring you to be human. (wood elf and half-elf would both be great choices)

Please mastery is what happens when my phone auto corrects the wrong word.

That build you posted delays spellcasting by an extra level and ends with one less feat, both being big no-nos for such a MAD character. I was also under the impression that the monk bonus attack had to be with unarmed strike, and thus wouldn't allow life drinker. If not, then a non-variant human could be used for the build.

If I were going to go down the monk route, and I knew I could bonus attack with the quarterstaff as a monk, then I would do the following:

Point buy, 15 in CHA, WIS, and DEX, Con = 11 (we will fix this asap)
Variant Human, +1 DEX and CHA, observant feat for +1 WIS
Take Resilient: Con and blade pact at C-level 4, warlock 3. Take Eldritch blast and devil sight invocations (character will want Stealth prof and will want to make use of darkness)
All future ASIs go to maxing DEX, then CHA

That way we end up with a dexer character who has observant, Resilient con, and the same AC and DPR as the fighter-variant once we hit C-level 13.

Edit: just checked and the bonus attack has to be with the monk's unarmed strike, which is terribly unfortunate. So much for that, could have been a cool build. The fighter variant with strength would still have been less MAD, though. That variant would also allow the quarterstaff + shield + dueling combo for higher damage output and 20AC as soon as plate is available. So it'd be better anyway.

[MeeposFire]

Yea this thing works but it is a pain in the butt to get online. Either you lack extra attacks for a long time by starting bard or you lack accuracy and damage if you start warlock. The only partial way around this is if you allow invocations off of character level instead of warlock level but I think that is fairly rare. Even then you stil are not getting fully online until level 8.

[Naanomi]

The only partial way around this is if you allow invocations off of character level instead of warlock level but I think that is fairly rare. Even then you stil are not getting fully online until level 8.
If you play that way, add Oathbreaker for a third instance of CHA to damage

[xyianth]

snip

Yeah, I've unfortunately concluded that life drinker is ultimately not worth the hassle for this concept. As I mentioned previously, improved divine smite is functionally equivalent to life drinker except for the following qualities:

Improved divine smite applies to every type of melee weapon hit, not just with pact weapons.
Improved divine smite deals radiant damage, which is generally more useful than necrotic.
The paladin class features are better suited to melee combat than the blade pact warlock.
By not needing blade pact for life drinker, we can take tome pact to pick up cha-based shillelagh in only 3 levels.
This makes the multiclass of oathbreaker paladin + fiend tomelock dish out frightening amounts of damage with a quarterstaff: 2x attacks of 2d8+12 and a bonus action attack of 1d4+1d8+12. This is in addition to a full strength aura of protection, agonizing eldritch blasts, and lots of undead minions. (paladin 1/warlock 5/paladin +11/X 3 gives 3rd level pact magic slots and animate dead as an oath spell) Although extra attack is delayed to ECL 10, you do have eldritch blasts starting at ECL 2. This can allow you to shift into a more melee focused build as it gains potency without falling behind too much in terms of damage output. (at ECL 1, you are a human paladin with polearm mastery, so you should do fine damage wise even then)

Non-oathbreakers lose 5 damage per hit and the animate dead combo, but still get 3rd level pact slots for other uses.