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View Full Version : Optimization Still donīt know if this is homebrew section, so... here is the Theurge Arcane Trad.



Tarrab
2015-02-17, 02:49 PM
Well, Iīve always hated the fact that the Mystic Theurge Prc was just so lame to both acquire and to play, so I thought why shouldnīt we get something like it for 5th edition as a Wizard Arcane Tradition. Tell me what you think!

New Arcane Tradition: Theurge

The Theurge is a wizard that opens his ways to a different type of casting, losing some specialization for the capacity to cast spells both divine and arcane.

Delver of Magic

At level 2 you can change a cantrip you know for a Cleric Cantrip of your choice. Every time you gain a cantrip you can choose a Cleric cantrip instead of a wizard one. From level 2 onward when you gain a level, one of the spells you learn must be a spell from the Cleric list and one of the Wizard list. All spells use your Intelligence modifier and count as Wizard spells.

Divine Magician

At level 6 when you use a spell slot, you can choose two spells of a lower level to be cast, one must be divine and the other arcane. For example if you use a 3rd level spell slot you can cast a 2nd level arcane spell and a 1st level divine spell or viceversa. When using this ability you can only cast spells that have the same target (area, one target or self) and both spells must be inside their maximum range. Both spells have to be of the same duration to work together. If the spells have an area of affect, the area for both spells is the area of the smallest spell. You cannot use cantrips with this ability. Once you use this ability you cannot use it again until you finish a short rest.

Theurge Savant

At level 10 when you use your Divine Magician ability, you can spend an additional spell slot to increase the DC of the saving throw against both spells by the number of the spell slot used. The spell slot expended cannot be higher than half your proficiency bonus rounded down. You can also use Divine Magician twice per short rest.

Mystic Apotheosis

At level 14 you can cast one spell from your arcane list and one spell from your divine list by spending a single spell slot, and both spells can be of that spell slotīs level. You can do this with low level spells that can be empowered by spell slot use. The spells donīt have to share a target, no matter if they have a single target, an area target or a target of self. You can use this ability once per long rest. You cannot use Theurge Savant with this ability. You can also use Divine Magician thrice per short rest.

OR (and probable choice)

At level 14 you can keep concentration on two spells at the same time, as long as one spell comes from your Wizard list and one spell comes from your Cleric list. You can also use Divine Magician thrice per short rest.

Iīm all eyes :smallamused:

pwykersotz
2015-02-17, 06:18 PM
I think this is a fascinating idea, and I like how you're approaching it.

However, I don't think that dual casting is balanced when uncapped like that. I haven't pondered it much yet, but I would at least lower it to once per short rest, maybe once per long rest. The ability to select from two spell lists is already pretty amazing.

I like Mystic Apotheosis in theory, however I haven't played any high-level games yet, so I don't have a feel for whether it would work well.

Very nice, great idea! :smallsmile:

calebrus
2015-02-17, 07:02 PM
I like the concept in general.
A few thoughts:

1) I think this would be more balanced as Sorcerer "Divine Theurge" Bloodline rather than an Arcane Tradition. Reason being, spells known is more limiting than a spellbook. That would work as a balancing factor to a degree.
I would require that the first spell learned of any given level be from the Sorcerer's spell list, with the second spell learned of any given spell level being allowed from the Cleric's list (cantrips are not limited in this way, and may be chosen freely as they are gained).
This way the ability to learn spells from two lists is tempered a bit by the limited spells known and is tempered even more so by the fact that only a single spell of any given spell level can be from the Cleric's list.
This would mean that you could know spells from:
lvl1: 2 sorc, 1 cleric (or 3 sorc)
lvl2: 1 sorc, 1 cleric (or 2 sorc)
lvl3: 1 sorc, 1 cleric (or 2 sorc)
lvl4: 1 sorc, 1 cleric (or 2 sorc)
lvl5: 1 sorc, 1 cleric (or 2 sorc)
lvl6+: 1 sorc, 0 cleric

2) Delver of Magic would introduce the limitations described above. Learn one Cleric cantrip of your choice at this level in addition to those listed on the Sorc table. (level 3)

3) Divine Magician should be once per short rest, and cannot be used in conjunction with any metamagic. (level 6)

4) Same goes for Theurge Savant (see #3 above). When this ability is gained, you can use Divine Magician twice per short rest, but Theurge Savant remains at once per short rest. (level 14)

5) Mystic Apotheosis would be once per long rest. (level 18)

Those are the changes I would make.

Tarrab
2015-02-17, 09:16 PM
I think this is a fascinating idea, and I like how you're approaching it.

However, I don't think that dual casting is balanced when uncapped like that. I haven't pondered it much yet, but I would at least lower it to once per short rest, maybe once per long rest. The ability to select from two spell lists is already pretty amazing.

I like Mystic Apotheosis in theory, however I haven't played any high-level games yet, so I don't have a feel for whether it would work well.

Very nice, great idea! :smallsmile:

Ok, thanks for the opionion and the encouragment, although I donīt get why you mean by "uncapped". I still have to test the class in action to see how OP or UP it is ;)

Tarrab
2015-02-17, 09:20 PM
I like the concept in general.
A few thoughts:

1) I think this would be more balanced as Sorcerer "Divine Theurge" Bloodline rather than an Arcane Tradition. Reason being, spells known is more limiting than a spellbook. That would work as a balancing factor to a degree.
I would require that the first spell learned of any given level be from the Sorcerer's spell list, with the second spell learned of any given spell level being allowed from the Cleric's list (cantrips are not limited in this way, and may be chosen freely as they are gained).
This way the ability to learn spells from two lists is tempered a bit by the limited spells known and is tempered even more so by the fact that only a single spell of any given spell level can be from the Cleric's list.
This would mean that you could know spells from:
lvl1: 2 sorc, 1 cleric (or 3 sorc)
lvl2: 1 sorc, 1 cleric (or 2 sorc)
lvl3: 1 sorc, 1 cleric (or 2 sorc)
lvl4: 1 sorc, 1 cleric (or 2 sorc)
lvl5: 1 sorc, 1 cleric (or 2 sorc)
lvl6+: 1 sorc, 0 cleric

2) Delver of Magic would introduce the limitations described above. Learn one Cleric cantrip of your choice at this level in addition to those listed on the Sorc table. (level 3)

3) Divine Magician should be once per short rest, and cannot be used in conjunction with any metamagic. (level 6)

4) Same goes for Theurge Savant (see #3 above). When this ability is gained, you can use Divine Magician twice per short rest, but Theurge Savant remains at once per short rest. (level 14)

5) Mystic Apotheosis would be once per long rest. (level 18)

Those are the changes I would make.

1&2) If you read the class description, I made it wizard to and took away the chance of learning spell bia spellbook on purpose, also added an extra spell per level so as to make it worthwhile, but limited two of these three spells to be of a lower level than your maximum.

3) I was considering the short rest. I wouldnīt worry about the metamagic since I still defend the Wizard class for this ;).

4) Theurge Savant is maybe the most OP ability in this class, I have to test it first to be sure though... it might get reduced.

5) I was thinking of changing Mystic Apotheosis to something more permanent and logic to the class... maybe the capacity to keep concentration on one arcane spell and one divine spell at the same time...

Correcting now

Twelvetrees
2015-02-17, 09:38 PM
To answer the thread title question: Yep, this is homebrew.

The suggestions I have for improvement are going to be similar to the suggestions you have already received. One thing that I would suggest that hadn't been mentioned yet would be to replace the ability to boost the spell save DC to something more similar to sorcerer metamagic abilities, to represent how much control over both divine and arcane magic this arcane tradition has.

Nicely done, overall.

Tarrab
2015-02-17, 09:39 PM
To answer the thread title question: Yep, this is homebrew.

The suggestions I have for improvement are going to be similar to the suggestions you have already received. One thing that I would suggest that hadn't been mentioned yet would be to replace the ability to boost the spell save DC to something more similar to sorcerer metamagic abilities, to represent how much control over both divine and arcane magic this arcane tradition has.

Nicely done, overall.

Would you give me an example of what you mean with something similar? Thanks mate