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View Full Version : Pathfinder Beating the odds : Help on dealing with the impossible.



Dezea
2015-02-17, 08:24 PM
Hey guys,

As the title says, I would be really curious to have your take on some encounter my party is about to face.

Long story short : We are a party of 5 (Wizard 11, Rogue 11, Bard 12, Cleric 12, Barbarian 13) and we are about to face a Duke of Hell (A pit fiend with something like a CR 24+, is he mainly known lore-wise for killing an especialy powerful solar of our setting in 1v1).

Now, we all know this should be impossible. But we might be able to take the fight to him in a way that he would be surprise, and we should be able to gather almost all the data about him beforehand.

In some way, this is definitely a fight that should be won before being fought.

Before I'll ask you some questions, here are some specifics :

- We are running Core Handbook only.
- We are pretty much low to okayish op. Everyone of us got a gentleman agrement to not go on cheese teritory, so our fellow barb & rogue won't feel useless.
- The wizard is a conjurer, and used most of his feat to improve his...Skill at painting. Yeah, I know. Still, he got imp init, quicken spell and...Core pathfinder doesn't offer much as feat for caster, anyway.
- The rogue is your classic backstabing bastard, tho he got some high rolled stats and I would say he hit things with more consistance than most rogue and doesn't die quite often.
- The barbarian is your go-to "Insane Damage While Raging if able to hit" brute, with a heavy focus on boosting his saves.
- The priest probably never dealt a single point of damage. Not to say he spend all of your fight healing, but he mostly try to help around, buffing and controlling.
- The bard is a pretty competent archer and the buffing powerhouse of the group. He's also in charge of protecting the priest.
- We expect to be able to fight him in hell, but not on his own plane, and we should be able to trick him into coming to us, unexpecting the ambush. (I mean, lvl 12 adventurer trying to secure a kill on a Duke of Hell ? Comon...)
- As said before, we have access to every data available as for "Classic" pit fiend. In gaming term, It means that we can freely look at the pfsrd, as if we had access to an in game library with the data - Wich, actually, is the case. We also happend to know that he is stronger than your usual pit fiend, but the only specific differences we know is that he got an incredibly potent poison.

Sooooo : Here is how we did it : We looked at all the tool that a Pit Fiend have, and realized we had to face some very specifics issue, that we tried to list and analyse. Here is what we found, and the way we have found to answer them, I would be very glad is you see some issue we overlooked, and If you could help us to find some answer we are unable to get...

- Quite high physical damage capacity : Honestly, it doesn't deal THAT much damage for a monster of this level. Quite scary indeed, but probably not enough to even one shot the rogue. Prolly if he start using his turn full attacking, we should be able to overcome him thanks to pure action economy advantage.
- Very high AC : 38 AC for the classic pit fiend, more like 42 if he get his unholy aura off, and probably more like around 45 for the duke of hell. Actually, this is a big problem indeed, but not as big as we feared. If we are able to initiate the fight fully buff, the ability of a bard to help us hit stuff his really incredible. Still, we shouldn't expect to hit the full atack each turn, but some dps should be able to go through
- Very high DR/SR : We will be able to have good aligned silver weapon for the fight, so DR is no problem. Sr tho... Does someone see any way to bypass it using core only ? This is actually a major issue.
- Ability to teleport : If he go away...We are absolutely screwed. That would be okay if we could dimensional anchor him, but the spell is SR yes...Any idea ?
- Blasphemy : With him being pretty likely over 10 HD of us it looked like a problem at first, but we decided to get all defeaned to avoid the spell, with the wizard putting up some telepathic link
- Trap the soul : Here is another real problem. Save's gonna be quite hard, and protection against evil doesn't offer a second save... We are thinking about trying to contingency a spell to counter this, but counterspelling suck real hard in pathfinder, and trying to deal damage with a spell will need to beat the high SR...
- Wish : Well, this could be absolutely horrible. Same as trap the soul above, but harder.
- High fire damage : Well, quite trivial here, protection from energy will do the trick.
- His poison : Quite easy to counter, actually, with the fear tho that his poison will overcome a "Normal" neutralize poison.

Well : That's all we have for the moment. Thank you a lot if you went trough the whole post, considering I'm not from an english speaking country, and my english prolly sux.
I will be really curious to know what hole you find in our plan, and if you can see any way for us to fill the gap !

Dezea

avr
2015-02-17, 09:39 PM
A Duke of Hell is likely to have some guards with him, or an advisor or hangers on or something. Teleporting guards, so even if you throw up a wall of stone they can get thru. That should be enough to kill the plan; one boss loses out on action advantage, one boss and his guards will tear you apart with that high a CR difference.

Further problems: what if this guy can astrally project and uses that to come to you? Even if you kill him, the worst that happens is he gets a couple of negative levels. Even if he doesn't, what if he comes in buffed from a few items (or courtiers with some spellcasting) himself, unlike the standard pit fiend.

Dezea
2015-02-18, 07:19 AM
A Duke of Hell is likely to have some guards with him, or an advisor or hangers on or something. Teleporting guards, so even if you throw up a wall of stone they can get thru. That should be enough to kill the plan; one boss loses out on action advantage, one boss and his guards will tear you apart with that high a CR difference.

Further problems: what if this guy can astrally project and uses that to come to you? Even if you kill him, the worst that happens is he gets a couple of negative levels. Even if he doesn't, what if he comes in buffed from a few items (or courtiers with some spellcasting) himself, unlike the standard pit fiend.

Well...I guess we have to rely on tricking him here alone. Tho he should be able to summon stuff ...
Yeah. That's another problem, definitely.

Mystral
2015-02-18, 07:25 AM
I don't think you can beat him if you don't want to use cheese.

What's your budget?

If you have a few thousand gold to spare, you might give the good old dust of sneezing and choking a whirl.

skypse
2015-02-18, 07:38 AM
Direct quote from pfsrd:


A deafened character cannot hear. He takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Perception checks based on sound, takes a –4 penalty on opposed Perception checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components. Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Are you sure your cleric and wizard want to be deafened? Also, in case your Bard has oral performance his buffs are out of the question as well.

Dezea
2015-02-18, 07:47 AM
Direct quote from pfsrd:


Are you sure your cleric and wizard want to be deafened? Also, in case your Bard has oral performance his buffs are out of the question as well.

20% is pretty bad, but Blasphemy can still be really troublesome even if you save...We should basicaly auto-save it thanks to countersong if we wanted to, but I'm not sure it would be a good idea to risk it...
Our Bard can actually dance, too, so this should be okay !

For the cheesing part...I must admit that as a player, I would really hate myself if i were to met such a challenge with choking powder. And the DM would thankfully prolly never allow it. To be honest, I'd rather die the glorious - Or not - death !

That being said, I'm pretty sure that using wit and tactics, this fight can go from "Totally impossible" to "Barely doable". Wich would be a huge improvement o/
Budget is running quite low, I'd say we can prolly use 50k gold maybe.

Mystral
2015-02-18, 09:03 AM
20% is pretty bad, but Blasphemy can still be really troublesome even if you save...We should basicaly auto-save it thanks to countersong if we wanted to, but I'm not sure it would be a good idea to risk it...
Our Bard can actually dance, too, so this should be okay !

For the cheesing part...I must admit that as a player, I would really hate myself if i were to met such a challenge with choking powder. And the DM would thankfully prolly never allow it. To be honest, I'd rather die the glorious - Or not - death !

That being said, I'm pretty sure that using wit and tactics, this fight can go from "Totally impossible" to "Barely doable". Wich would be a huge improvement o/
Budget is running quite low, I'd say we can prolly use 50k gold maybe.

Well.. the Tarrasque is quite doable at level 13, but that's by abusing its various weak points.

Looking at the pit fiend, it doesn't really have any. At the current state of your party, it might even beat you handily just by flying and throwing SLAs. Also, other than the tarrasque, it is intelligent enough to cover for any weaknesses and can retreat any time it feels like it.

And then there is the 'small' problem of it being able to cast wish.

Honestly, you might be best served with some kind of powerfull oneshot item. Either you try to quest for one (and buy your DM a pizza) or you buy something worthwhile. You have so many weaknesses that it would be impossible to shore them all up, so you might as well put everything into offense.

Dezea
2015-02-18, 10:27 AM
Well.. the Tarrasque is quite doable at level 13, but that's by abusing its various weak points.

Looking at the pit fiend, it doesn't really have any. At the current state of your party, it might even beat you handily just by flying and throwing SLAs. Also, other than the tarrasque, it is intelligent enough to cover for any weaknesses and can retreat any time it feels like it.

And then there is the 'small' problem of it being able to cast wish.

Honestly, you might be best served with some kind of powerfull oneshot item. Either you try to quest for one (and buy your DM a pizza) or you buy something worthwhile. You have so many weaknesses that it would be impossible to shore them all up, so you might as well put everything into offense.

Well, flying is definitely not an issue...Tho the SLA and Wish definitely are some big problem.

This being said, lot's of the SLA he has are pretty bad (Not counting wish and trap the soul ofc...) and his only quicken is a fireball...
I'm pretty sure this could be doable with a surprise round, a lot of tactics, and, indeed, some luck.

Don't you think ?

Mystral
2015-02-18, 11:19 AM
Well, flying is definitely not an issue...Tho the SLA and Wish definitely are some big problem.

This being said, lot's of the SLA he has are pretty bad (Not counting wish and trap the soul ofc...) and his only quicken is a fireball...
I'm pretty sure this could be doable with a surprise round, a lot of tactics, and, indeed, some luck.

Don't you think ?

Let's see, then.

Your wizard will most likely never scratch him (SR 31 and very high saving throws).
Your melee dudes, even if they can fly, will be stunned by powerword stun or mass hold monster, or dropped out of the sky by greater dispel magic (how do you fly, anyway? Permanent item or spell by the wizard? if the second, the Pit Fiend just has to dispell the fly spells and your helpless. if the second, he can still ground you, he only has to spend half of his actions).

Your Bard Archer, though most likely the most "dangerous" character in the party, will most likely be unable to pierce the DR. And if he ever does 1 HP of damage, the pit fiend will most likely summon a devil to be his personal playmate. Like, an immolation devil. You guys couldn't even take the CR 19 Devil that this guy can summon.

If you ever manage to SOMEHOW trap him and stop him from flying away, he can still teleport.

So you have to stop him from taking any actions whatsoever. If the pit fiend takes an action, you might as well hand in your character sheets.

Mystral
2015-02-18, 11:25 AM
Why do you have to fight him now, anyway? Can't it wait a few more months while you gather your strength, collect some artifacts and gain a few levels?

Dezea
2015-02-18, 12:13 PM
Let's see, then.

Your wizard will most likely never scratch him (SR 31 and very high saving throws).
Your melee dudes, even if they can fly, will be stunned by powerword stun or mass hold monster, or dropped out of the sky by greater dispel magic (how do you fly, anyway? Permanent item or spell by the wizard? if the second, the Pit Fiend just has to dispell the fly spells and your helpless. if the second, he can still ground you, he only has to spend half of his actions).

Your Bard Archer, though most likely the most "dangerous" character in the party, will most likely be unable to pierce the DR. And if he ever does 1 HP of damage, the pit fiend will most likely summon a devil to be his personal playmate. Like, an immolation devil. You guys couldn't even take the CR 19 Devil that this guy can summon.

If you ever manage to SOMEHOW trap him and stop him from flying away, he can still teleport.

So you have to stop him from taking any actions whatsoever. If the pit fiend takes an action, you might as well hand in your character sheets.


Thanks. I always think that how impossible things looks at first, listing them an adressing them one by one makes things considerably easier.

So, to answer in order !

Flying - the rogue and the barbarian got boots of flying, for the 3 other, I'm not sure they'll need fly, but if they do a spell should do the trick. Greater magic dispell is great, but if the devil start using is action economy to dispell, I think we are still getting ahead.

Power Word Stun or Mass Hold Person are in fact quite easy to counter with so many 4 level slot spell available. Once again : We are readying ourselve for this fight. If this mean the wizard using all 4 level slot to get freedom of movement, he will. (Priest can take it too, btw)

The Dr will in fact be irelevant, we got silver arrow and a wand of align weapons.

But you are totally right about the summoning and the SR.
I guess the SR can be "Dealed with" with the wizard focusing on SR:No spells...But they'r not many of them. Thus my questions to the playground for idea of clutch wizard play in such an unfriendly encounter for him...

The summoning...Well, If my reading of the rules is correct, summoning is a complex action for him, and thus can be interupted by damage, no ?

That makes me think it would be really REALLY unlikely he'll try a summon. And exept if we got really awful luck, if he does, we should be able to force some impossible Concentration check on him.

As for the why of the fight, not going into heavy lore detail, but it's one of those "World at stake" RPG moment ! And sadly, we can't spare much time pexing...

Thanks for your comment anyway