Claws + Gauntlets

[Sivar]

So I am playing a pale master and my unarmed attack is extremely overpowered and I got willing deformity (claws) from Libris Mortis. I recently found hellcat gauntlets and the DM cannot find out if they add on to my natural attack or if they negate it. HELP! ps. The DM knows that he can make rules but he like to "play by the book"

[Deophaun]

Hellcat Gauntlets from the MIC? I don't think they have any interaction at all with unarmed or natural attacks. They just add damage to single-target spells.

[Sivar]

OMG your right were all idiots :smalltongue:. But do you know what the slashing damage caps at because it says 1d6 per level and we have epic level characters.

[Morof Stonehands]

It says in the description that it deals 1d6 slashing damage per level of the spell being cast, i.e. 4th level spell gets 4d6 extra slashing damage, 5th level gets 5d6, and so on.

[Sivar]

I understand that but there must be a cap for it because as a level 20 sorcerer and level 9 pale master I would throw a fire ball that does 49d6 of damage?

20d6 for level 20 + 29d6 for level 29?

[Morof Stonehands]

per SPELL LEVEL, not caster level, there are only 9 spell levels, so max 9d6.

[torrasque666]

per SPELL LEVEL, not caster level, there are only 9 spell levels, so max 9d6.
Epic levels go up a bit higher, but same principle.

[Sivar]

So 18d6 total damage?

[torrasque666]

So 18d6 total damage?
Do you have access to 18th level spells and spell slots?

[Deophaun]

I understand that but there must be a cap for it because as a level 20 sorcerer and level 9 pale master I would throw a fire ball that does 49d6 of damage?

20d6 for level 20 + 29d6 for level 29?
Your typical fireball with a caster level of 20 would do 10d6 + 3d6 damage when cast with the hellcat gauntlets (10d6, because that's what fireball caps at, and 3d6 from the hellcat gauntlets because it's a 3rd level spell). A CL 20 fireball that has been Heightened to 9th level would do 10d6 + 9d6 damage and require a 9th level spell slot to cast.

[Khedrac]

And looking back at the other implication of the original question, I don't know if there is any RAW, but I rule that wearing gauntlets precludes making claw attacks with the appendages in question or you risk sundering your own gauntlets.

It might be possible to get some custom-made that allow the claws through though.

[torrasque666]

And looking back at the other implication of the original question, I don't know if there is any RAW, but I rule that wearing gauntlets precludes making claw attacks with the appendages in question or you risk sundering your own gauntlets.

It might be possible to get some custom-made that allow the claws through though.

Beast Claws, from Savage Species. Hell, even adds to the damage.

[Deophaun]

It might be possible to get some custom-made that allow the claws through though.
Gauntlets crafted for dragons specifically do not interfere with their claws, and they can be used without problem by humanoid characters.

[Der_DWSage]

I understand that but there must be a cap for it because as a level 20 sorcerer and level 9 pale master I would throw a fire ball that does 49d6 of damage?

20d6 for level 20 + 29d6 for level 29?

Ho-kay, let's break this down into the component parts.

First of all, Fireball itself. Let's do some reading.


Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

Material Component
A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.

The rest of it is miscellaneous information, but note the bolded portion. Most spells have some form of damage cap noted right after the actual damage they deal. Not all of them have it in the same area, but they are there. So your Fireball will cap at 10 caster levels, dealing 10d6 damage. (Barring metamagic feats, magic items, and class abilities.)

Next, caster level and spell level! Your Caster Level is your levels in a spellcasting class (In this case, Sorcerer) + any levels in a prestige class that say '+1 to existing level of a spellcasting class' (In this case, Pale Master.)

Your twenty levels in Sorcerer do indeed grant you 20 caster levels, but your nine levels in Pale Master only grant you eight caster levels, as the first level in Pale Master does not grant a caster level boost. Thus, your Caster Level is 28, often abbreviated to CL 28. When you cast anything that calls out your level, this is the number that you use.

Spell Level, on the other hand, (Other than being where WotC really needed to pull out a thesaurus) is separate from your Caster Level. There are 10 spell levels (Cantrips + 1-9) and then epic spell slots that require both a feat and don't actually have spells made for them, mostly being useful for metamagic. Spell level does not add to your caster level in any way, shape, or form, but many magic items (Such as the hellcat gauntlets) and feats rely on the spell level. Again, to pull from the SRD...


Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

Material Component
A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.
The spell level is listed in every spell, alongside what type of class can cast it at that level. In this case, Fireball is only usable by Wizards and Sorcerers that have access to 3rd level spells. (Again, this is separate from caster level, so no, you don't get access to Fireball as a 3rd level Sorcerer.) It also uses a 3rd level spell slot, so it would allow your Hellcat gauntlets to deal an extra 3d6 damage.

...And speaking of which, Fireball wouldn't work with your Hellcat Gauntlets. Read the Hellcat Gauntlet description again, paying attention to the third line of the description. It needs to target a single creature, which means that it can't be an area-of-effect spell like Fireball. You would need something more like Disintegrate, which is a ray that deals 2d6 damage per level, maximum 40d6, to a single target. Arguably, spells like Magic Missile and Scorching Ray could work if you only target a single creature with it.

To answer the original question, Hellcat Gauntlets do not modify your unarmed attack in any way, shape, or form. They do not state anything about it, so unless your GM wants to make a houserule, they neither enhance nor hinder your natural attacks.

Any other questions we can answer, while we're at it?