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heavyfuel
2015-02-17, 10:37 PM
During my experience with 5e, I've noticed a distinct lack of a balanced Arcane Gish, one that is a well balanced mix of combat and spells, and can use both at the same time. The two classes that come close to it is the Eldritch Knight, and the Valor Bard, but while the first is pretty much a Fighter with a splash of magic, the latter is the one of the most powerful casters in the game that happens to gain an Extra Attack feature.

So I decided to adapt 3.5's gish-in-a-can, the Duskblade, with 2 common Gish classes as Archetypes, the Magus (3.PF) and the Swiftblade (3.5) Let's get to it.

Spoilers are for commentary

Lvl - Prof - Features
01 | +2 | Magical Attunement
02 | +2 | Spellcating, Arcane Strike
03 | +2 | Mixed Archetype
04 | +2 | Ability Score Improvement
05 | +3 | Extra Attack
06 | +3 | Arcane Channeling, Spell Power
07 | +3 | Mixed Archetype Feature
08 | +3 | Ability Score Improvement
09 | +4 |--
10 | +4 | Improved Arcane Strike
11 | +4 | Mixed Archetype Feature
12 | +4 | Ability Score Improvement
13 | +5 | --
14 | +5 | Improved Spell Power
15 | +5 | Mixed Archetype Feature
16 | +5 | Ability Score Improvement
17 | +6 | --
18 | +6 | Greater Spell Power
19 | +6 | Ability Score Improvement
20 | +6 | Mixed Archetype Feature

Spells Known and Spell Slots: As the Ranger. Since more spellslots for spontaneous casters aren't a thing anymore, they lost just about all benefits, which made them more suitable for this class, which was never meant to be a powerful, versatile, caster.

FEATURES

Hit Dice: d8. Weaker than most combat focused classes, but both archetypes get something to compensate it, making them worse earlier, but on par later

Proficiencies: Light and Medium Armor, Shields, Simple and Martial Weapons, no tools, Strength and Intelligence saving throws, 2 skill from: Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception. No Heavy Armor, that's for the Magus only. Shields are go, though you pretty much need Warcaster to make them work. Made a mix, somewhat, of the Fighter and Wizard skill list, removing some things I didn't deem appropriate.

Starting Wealth: 5d4*10 Same as all other "trained" combat heavy classes

Quick Equipment:
(a) Scale mail (b) Leather, Shortbow and 20 arrows
(a) A martial melee weapon (b) Two simple melee weapons
(a) A light crossbow and 20 bolts (b) Two handaxes
(a) A component pouch (b) An arcane focus
(a) Dungeoneer's pack (b) Explorer's pack

Magical Attunement - You know a number of Wizard cantrips equal to your half your Intelligence modifier (rounded down) plus 1, to a minimum of 1. This way you only get proper spellcasting at lv 2, making the spell table need zero alterations. Same can be said for the multiclassing table, which will be dealt with later

Spellcasting - You know spells as the Ranger does. Your spellcasting ability is Intelligence.

Arcane Strike - Before using the Attack action, you can choose to spend one spell slot and deal an extra 1d6 force damage per slot level for every attack you make until your next turn. The 3.5 feat working similar to Paladin's Smite. Less damage to compensate that it affects every attack and is Force damage

No Fighting Style, yet. I'll explain later, when talking about the Archetypes

Mixed Archetypes - Choose between the Magus and the Swiftblade. The archetype you choose grants you features at 3rd level and again at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 20th level. The name sucks, but is temporary, and there are lots of Archetypes features, just like the Fighter. The Duskblade never got many features besides channeling and quick casting (which as removed due to metamagic being Sorcerer only, and because the Swiftblade already gets it... somewhat) and the other classes got a lot of them, so it's only natural

Extra Attack - At lv 5.

Arcane Channeling - When you cast a spell that requires a spell attack (either melee or ranged), you can deliver the attack with a melee weapon, dealing regular attack damage as well as the spell's. Any modifier to the attack roll, such as Shocking Grasp's advantage against metal armored targets, are not granted. The spell effects take place after the weapon attack. The Duskblade's signature move, 3 levels later. Seriously, this would be way too strong at level 3. 3.5's version was ambiguous whether or not you could use Ranged Attack spells (though the RAW was "no"), and I think we should let this time, simply because there are so few spells that require melee attacks.

Spell Power - If you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, it doesn't benefit from Magic Resistance against your spells for 10 minutes. Spell Resistance isn't a thing anymore, and neither is +2 bonuses, this is as close as we get.

-- Like the Pally and the Ranger, you gain nothing at the levels where you gain a spell level (except 5, with the Extra Attack)

Improved Arcane Strike - Every attack you make deals an additional 1d6 force damage. If you use Arcane Strike, you add this damage to it. Straight out of the Paladin, though still weaker

Improved Spell Power - If you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, the minimum spell level that affects a creature with Limited Magic Immunity is reduced by 3 for your spells. The creatures also doesn't gain advantage on saving throws against your spells. This lasts for 10 minutes. LMI is pretty much the second equivalent of Spell Resistance, and I only found 2 creatures with LMI: the Rakshasa from the MM; and Tiamat. Both are immune to spells level 6th or lower and this allows the Duskblade to use his 4th level spells on them. The beauty is that it only applies to Duskblade spells, since a Duskblade 14/Full caster 6 build only gives 3rd level spells for the full caster, so this can't be abused. I don't think.

Greater Spell Power - If you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, it has disadvantage on saving throws against your spells for 10 minutes. A better version of the Eldritch Knight's Eldritch Strike, though it does come online 8 levels later.

MIXED ARCHETYPES

Magus

Level 3
Spell-combat - Whenever you make a melee weapon attack, you can cast a cantrip as bonus action. To do this, you must have one free hand, regardless of other cirumstances. If the cantrip requires a melee spell attack and you have the Two-Weapon Fighting Fighting Style, you can add your Intelligence bonus to the spell damage. This counts as casting a bonus action spell. Signature move, this time only two levels later. It's cantrip only at first, but gets better
Fighting Style - Any of the following: Defense, Dueling, Two-Weapon Fighting. Yes, finally a Fighting Style. TWF may seem like the obvious choice, especially with how Spell-combat works, but think about it... Your Int will probably be less than your Str or Dex, and you're much more likely to get that to 20 first, so while Int to damage may seem nice, it's proably going to be just slightly above the 2 damage from Dueling, which will happen more often since your melee attack bonus is going to be higher than your spell attack bonus, meaning more weapons will hit than spells. Also, Dueling allows you to leave Int at a comfortable 12 or 13 until the late game

Previously, there was a feature called "Combat Expertise", which gave the Magus 1 maximum HP per level, as the compensation for d8 hit die. However, during playtest, he became almost unstoppable by anyone exept a full caster. Removing it was my way of making him slightly more glass-cannon, instead of his previous thik-glass-cannon

Level 7
Spell Recall - Once per short rest, you can spend your Bonus Action to regain spell slots. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than one quarter your Duskblade level (rounded down). The Wizard's Arcane Recovery, but weaker, however, on a short rest basis. Feels pretty similar to the PF ability
Knowledge Pool - By meditating for 1 hour after a Long Rest, you gain temporary knowledge of a number of spells from the Duskblade spell list. The combined level of spells you gain knowledge equals your Intelligence bonus, and the spells remain known until you take a Long Rest. Again, pretty similar to the PFs ability, also, simulates being a prepared caster like the original Magus.

Level 11
Bonus Proficiency - You gain proficiency with Heavy Armor and Constitution saving throws. Makes you harder to hit, and harder for you lose concentration. Perfect for a close-quarter cster. Also, the Magus used to get Heavy Armor, but the Duskblade did not, so it seems fitting
Improved Spell-Combat - You're no longer limited to a cantrip, though all other restrictions apply. Additionally, this counts as casting a bonus action spell. Much better now. But giving this at lv 3 would be be way too much. You'd be making an attack and throwing 2 spells (remember you'd have Arcane Chanelling). Talk about nova potential.

Level 15
Spell Access - You gain knowledge of 2 Wizard or Duskblade spells of a level you can cast. Bit of versatility, similar to how a prepared magus would have been

Level 20
True Magus - You never lose concentration in a spell due to damage or environmental phenomena.Very similar in feel to the PF ability
Improved Spell Recall - The amount of spell slots you regain with Spell Recall are doubled. This too, is very similar.


Swiftblade

Level 3
Focused Learning - You add Expeditious Retreat to your spells known. If you already know Expeditious Retreat, learn another 1st level spell from your list. While the archetype comes online at 3rd level, the original class had its first level at 7th in the earliest, so I decided to base some features out of Expeditious Retreat as well as Haste
Evasive Celerity - When you are under the effect of an Expeditious Retreat or Haste spell you cast on yourself, you are proficient in Dexterity saving throws.
Unarmored Defense - AC equals 10+Dex+Int when wearing no armor and not wielding a shield. Both of these are compensation for the d8. Dex saves are usually (always?) tyed to direct damage and Unarmored Defense gives you pretty good AC, especially Haste's bonus

No fighting style for the Swiftblade. He already gets a bunch of things at this entry level, no need for a Fighting Style as well

Level 7
Improved Focused Learning - You add Haste to your spells known. Additionally, you can cast it as 2nd level spell. It was either give it like this, or wait until level 11 for the archetype to get the spell
Swift Surge: 5ft - Your speed increses by 5 feet. When you're hasted, you're faster than a Monk, but you're still slower than a Hasted Monk (if your speed was 30ft). Pretty good for a class focused on being quick

Level 11
Sudden Casting - You can cast Haste as a bonus action. When you do this, you can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. Quicken Haste. Allows the character to cast haste and act on the first round, instead of having to waste it casting the spell
Evasion - As the Monk's. Too much? I think maybe a bit too much

Level 15
Fortified Hustle - You no longer need to concentrate on the Haste spell. Additionally, its effects if you cast on yourself cannot be dispelled by any means, and work inside an anti-magic field. You can still be affected by Counterspell or similar effect at the time of casting. Especially now that Dispel is certain, you can be very easily nullified, this makes it harder
Diligent Rapidity - When you cast the Haste spell using a 4th level spell slot, you gain the benefits of the Freedom of Movement spell for the duration. Pretty good bonus, though it eats a high level slot

Level 20
Perpetual Options - When under the effect of a Haste spell you cast on youself, you can use its additonal action to use the Attack, Cast a Spell, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Search, and Use an Object actions. Casting a spell this way counts as casting a Bonus Action spell. Only Ready action is left out, because that would be too complicated. The Bonus action spell thing is to avoid 3 highish level spells in one turn, though it might be too restrictive.

No time stop. I originally though of having it as a 2 round thing if you cast Haste with your 5th level slot, but it was too OP when comboed with Perpetual Options


SPELLS:

Level 1
Burning Hands
Chromatic Orb
Detect Magic
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Fog Cloud
Jump
Long Strider
Ray of Sickness
Shield
Thunderwave

Level 2
Blur
Darkvision
Enlarge/Reduce
Flaming Sphere
Invisibility
Magic Weapon
Ray of Enfeeblement
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility

Level 3
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Fly
Haste
Protection from Energy
Vampiric Touch

Level 4
Dimension Door
Fire Shield
Greater Invisibility
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere
Stoneskin
Wall of Fire

Level 5
Bigby's Hand
Cone of Cold
Cloudkill
Telekinesis
Wall of Force

MULTICLASSING

Prerequisite
Strength or Dexterity 13, and Intelligence 13

Proficiencies
Light armor, medium armor, simple weapons and martial Weapons

Spell Slots
You add half your levels (rounded down) in Duskblade class to determine your spell slots



The class most certainly has its shortcomings, the biggest one being the MAD, requiring 3 abilities to function, but I think they are well compensated by the class features. My only fear is that they might have been overcompensated. Almost all archetype levels have more 2 or more features, and while some of the PHB have as well, they're certainly not that many.

Perhaps if we followed the Ranger, and forced a choice between one or the other, for example, at lv15, force Swiftblades to choose between Fortified Hustle and Diligent Rapidity? That might work.

I've playtested the class as it stands by myself. I ran some combats and situations from Tyranny of Dragons with two parties, the first one was Duskblade (alternating between archetypes), Rogue, Cleric and Wizard, and then the standard party of Eldritch Knight instead of Duskblade. While it's a ridiculously small sample size, it's better than nothing.

Overall, they make for a really great 5th character to a party, but they can't really replace the Fighter, or Barbarian, or Paladin at earlier levels.

The first two levels were hell. He can't tank for ****, lack of a Second Wind and Action Surge meant the Fighter would nova better and had more sustain. There were 2 TPKs for the Duskblade party, and only one TPK for the Fighter. Levels 3 through 10 were pretty much the same. He still can't tank as well as the Fighter, but his damage is now on par, and he has spells for versatility. He can also nova more often than the Fighter since he isn't limited to 1/short rest, though if your party is willing to take a short rest after each encounter, the Fighter is still better at it.

Arcane Chanelling is fine where it is. Even allowing for cantrips only at lvs 2 or 3 would mean they'd be out damaging pretty much every class.

After level 11, it became a different game. The Fighter would outdamage the Swiftblade, but his speed and extra action made him very difficult to target. The Magus began to outdamage pretty much everything with 2 attack plus fireball. And between a Con 14, Proficiency, and Warcaster, it was almost impossible to lose concentration with the Magus. He's still a bit on the strong side, so I need help nerfing him. I really don't want to remove Improved Spell-combat, cause it's so classic Magus, so maybe switch it with Spell Access?

Spell power and similar have appeared very few times since very few monsters have Magic Resistance when compared to 3.5's SR, and I suppose that's a good thing. Just like in 3.5, it's meant to be a slight bonus so you didn't have a dead level, but useful when you needed it.

The capstones on both archetypes are neat, though the uselessness of True Magus is outshined by Improved Spell Recall, which gives him a great deal of blasting power.

DiBastet
2015-02-18, 08:12 AM
First I'm a little on the "square" side of 5e homebrewing, so forgive me if I repeat myself.

Cantrips: Why not the generic 2,3 or whatever, plus more at higher levels?

Arcane Strike plus Channeling: I understand that your idea is "if you want to go nova and use arcane channeling with arcane strike then do it but you'll run dry". That's exactly what player did on 3.5/pf, pile up as much damage as possible. I just... I dunno... Maybe I didn't run the numbers but it feels a little on the excessive side. A player would do... hm, vampiric touch + 2nd level arcane strike, to save his second vampiric touch for another combat. I would say the class don't need both damage boosts. I woudld keep channeling, since it's more flavorful, ditch strike and just give channeling earlier.

The Magus Problem: Casting a spell and attacking on the same turn is a must, I agree with that, but since you said you saw some opness on your sample, I would recommend making it the other way: cast a cantrip then bonus action a single attack, then cast a spell bonus action a single attack. See how it goes you know. I also don't like the feature fest; doing one OR another would be better. Also throw in an ability from a nice magus archetype and make it three choices most part like the hunter.

The Swiftblade: Call me overly conservative, but I don't actually like the idea of getting a spell earlier. I dunno... 3.5 had a lot of this, and 5e is clean and without precedent. I wouldn't make a subclass with this kind of exception, and if I was doing it would give another kind of ability. Also IMO I don't like blank immunities or perfect powers, so if this was mine I woduld change fortified hustle from never be automatically dispeled to instead always need a roll to be (or even tamer, always counting as a spell of 1/2-1 your character level for purpose of dispeling, but I think you don't like tame)

In any case this is all creative counsel, I don't do number-crunching-PEACHing, so if that's what you were after then I'm sorry. :smallfrown:

heavyfuel
2015-02-18, 09:08 AM
First I'm a little on the "square" side of 5e homebrewing, so forgive me if I repeat myself.

Cantrips: Why not the generic 2,3 or whatever, plus more at higher levels?

Arcane Strike plus Channeling: I understand that your idea is "if you want to go nova and use arcane channeling with arcane strike then do it but you'll run dry". That's exactly what player did on 3.5/pf, pile up as much damage as possible. I just... I dunno... Maybe I didn't run the numbers but it feels a little on the excessive side. A player would do... hm, vampiric touch + 2nd level arcane strike, to save his second vampiric touch for another combat. I would say the class don't need both damage boosts. I woudld keep channeling, since it's more flavorful, ditch strike and just give channeling earlier.

The Magus Problem: Casting a spell and attacking on the same turn is a must, I agree with that, but since you said you saw some opness on your sample, I would recommend making it the other way: cast a cantrip then bonus action a single attack, then cast a spell bonus action a single attack. See how it goes you know. I also don't like the feature fest; doing one OR another would be better. Also throw in an ability from a nice magus archetype and make it three choices most part like the hunter.

The Swiftblade: Call me overly conservative, but I don't actually like the idea of getting a spell earlier. I dunno... 3.5 had a lot of this, and 5e is clean and without precedent. I wouldn't make a subclass with this kind of exception, and if I was doing it would give another kind of ability. Also IMO I don't like blank immunities or perfect powers, so if this was mine I woduld change fortified hustle from never be automatically dispeled to instead always need a roll to be (or even tamer, always counting as a spell of 1/2-1 your character level for purpose of dispeling, but I think you don't like tame)

In any case this is all creative counsel, I don't do number-crunching-PEACHing, so if that's what you were after then I'm sorry. :smallfrown:

Cantrips: Because I didn't want to give them the Spellcasting feature at 1st level, since that would mean a modified spell table, as well as weird multiclassing consequences, but wanted them to have some casting from the get go. Hence the Magical Attunement (though I just noticed it was supposed to be half rounded up, not down) (no it wasn't, it was like that when I made it half rounded up, but then I changed it to half rounded down plus one, which works better), which means they'll probably have 1 2 at the start, and it progresses as they raise their Int 3 when their Int reaches 18 (instead of the previous, where they only got 3 at Int 20, and likely started with only one Cantrip). But, it was simply so I didn't have to alter the table or multiclassing.

Arcane Strike and Channeling: This did work in 3.x, but if you re-read the abilities, you'll notice you can't use them together. Arcane Strike requires the Attack action, and Channeling requires the Cast a Spell action, which you then make the spell attack as a melee weapon attack.

The Magus Problem: Yeah, feature fest was bothering me as well, for both archetypes. The reason I didn't want to give Bonus Action single attack is because it was too similar to the EK's (Improved) War Magic, though it is one possible solution. Any suggestion on a particular Magus Archetype? There are quite a few...

The Swiftblade: Without precedent it is... True, I kept thinking of ways to not do it like this. The one I came up with was to give some spells per level, much like the Paladin Oaths, so they'd get Haste at 9th level. Of course, that would mean half of your career without your signature spell... Bummer. Also, you'd only have 2 casts of Haste per day, 3 at best. Hardly enough for a class so focused on the spell, unless you decided to spend your precious 4th or 5th slots.

It's not that perfect, as it can still be Counterspelled, and I really like the idea of counting as 1/2-1 character level for dispelling, but wouldn't that be overly complicated? What do you think about it working inside an AMF?

All feedback is good feedback, thanks!

DiBastet
2015-02-18, 10:26 AM
Cantrips: I have no idea what you're talking about, but no worries.

Magus archetype: Oh I do, iirc the most iconic were hexcrafter (being pf's hexblade) and staff magus; but mechanicaly myrmidarch was the ranged magus, something that could fit as an optional class feature and tie your duskblade into the arcane archer niche.

War Magic: I don't see as actually bad a subclass from one class having a similar ability to a subclass from another class, really. We have a lot of Evasions for example.

The Swiftblade: So, about the haste thing, I know that would be a lot of work, but you could actually make it into a base 3rd level ability of the class. That would require rewriting most of your abilities from scratch, but bear with me:

We have precedent on Paladin and Moon Druid to spend a spell slot to gain something akin to the effect of a spell. Your main ability could be something like that, something you spend a spell slot and gives you benefits that look like haste, but scaling.

At first it would give you bonus move and idk, one of haste's effects or something haste-like. A cunning-action-like bonus action dash or disengage could fit. This ability would count as a spell of 1/2 your level (max 9) for dispeling purposes.

level 7 improves to give another effect if you spend a 2nd level slot. something directly from haste or based on it.

then level 11 it improves your possible extra actions giving ou the single attack option, or something based on it to not be just copypaste, again if you spend a higher level slot. By now you should gain all of haste's benefits if you spend the right spell slot.

level 15 hits and it works on antimagic fields and gives some of the benefits of freedom of movement; you know it, if you spend a higher level slot

level 20 hits and you can use the bonus action to cast a spell. a pretty good capstone.

BRKNdevil
2015-02-18, 12:14 PM
quick thing, the classes seem to have the following pattern for saves
1 of the 3 old saves: Wis, Con, and Dex
1 of the 3 new saves: Str, Int, Cha

dunno on the why, but that is how all the classes seem to be

eleazzaar
2015-04-03, 08:27 AM
I haven't played enough to improve the balance, but i must say, this class looks very nice, and there's obviously been a lot of work done here.



quick thing, the classes seem to have the following pattern for saves
1 of the 3 old saves: Wis, Con, and Dex
1 of the 3 new saves: Str, Int, Cha

dunno on the why, but that is how all the classes seem to be

Wis, Con, and Dex are considered common saves. Str, Int, Cha are considered rare saves. Getting two rare save proficiencies would be pretty weak, and two common ones would be pretty strong.

Gr7mm Bobb
2015-05-09, 11:13 PM
So i saw what you had here and really wanted to use it for my group of players. After a bit of playtesting and comparison i think i have nailed down something that works for our current groups balance. if you want to take a look at it here's the link to the google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YRQfmP5tGobK-umGO0GzXeCWzRxt4f7x2GtkpIAHKSI/edit?usp=sharing

Please let me know what you think of it and you have any question about specific changes, i believe i have comments enabled, or we could talk here.

Great work btw. Currently trying to brain crunch on how to make the Hexblade and the Arcane Archer as archetypes.

Edit
Ok so playing some test runs at different levels and we have stumbled upon a bit of a conundrum. How should the spell Vampiric Touch be handled? With any damage added from you weapon could still be considered the damage from your spell offering a lot of solid healing for a minute.

Ziegander
2015-05-14, 08:16 AM
Arcane Strike really needs to be tweaked. In theory it can deal WAY more damage than Smite, but in practice it can also waste your spell slots since you sacrifice the spell slot before you ever hit with an attack. That kind of makes it balanced, yes, but it also kind of makes it inconvenient to use a defining class feature and when you do use it, it's super swingy.

For example, at 2nd level, you could two-weapon fight and sacrifice a spell slot to swing in for 2d6 + modifier + 2d6 force damage, and then make an opportunity attack outside of your turn for another 1d6 + modifier + 1d6 force damage (total damage looking something like 6d6+6, avg 27). Meanwhile, a Paladin could swing with a greatsword, let's say, and smite for 2d6 + 3 + 2d8 radiant damage (avg 19, or 23.5 if he smites an undead or fiend). But the Duskblade could also sacrifice that spell slot and then whiff with all his attacks, whereas the Paladin only needs to sacrifice his slot if he does hit with an attack.

Overall, it just makes for a really wonky ability that should probably be altered to be more reliable and less bursty.

Otherwise, in your playtesting you noted that at early levels the Duskblade was very weak. Given the competition (Eldritch Knight, Paladin, Ranger), I'd say you shot a bit low in those early levels. Each of the competing classes have a d10 hit dice, and I see no reason for the Duskblade to lack one. Each of the competing classes has two class features at 1st level, and I see no reason the Duskblade should lack a second. Furthermore, the Ranger gets three skills, and so far your 1st class level lacks offensive punch or defensive substance, so depending on what possibly give the class as a second class feature at 1st level, you could also feasibly give the Duskblade a third skill.