Good Sixth Player Class Suggestion

[Brendanicus]

Hello Playground! I once again beseech your sagely knowledge!

So I'm DM'ing my first serious game, and it's fun all around for everyone involved, myself included. However, I do have a slight problem regarding what to do with one of my players.

The campaign we are running is a modified version of the World's Largest Dungeon, so Hack-N-Slash dungeon crawling is the norm. The party is at level 4, largely includes first-time players with no interest in optimization, and consists of the following:

Church Inquisitor- Healbot and secondary tank of the group. A zealous cleric of Moradin.
Fighter- Main Melee DPS and main tank.
Ranger w/ Barbarian dip- Focus on Archery. Main ranged combatant, uses snake animal companion for scouting. I gave her Trapfinding because nobody wanted to play a Rogue.
Druid- You guys would not call this a Druid, really. Her player is a first-timer and has terrible eyesight (considered legally blind), so I gave her Sorcerer-style spell progression with the Druid's spell list (That way she wouldn't have to memorize a ton of spells in really small font). Emphasis on ranged attacks and battlefield control.
Duskblade- Fills in in combat when needed, whether the party needs ranged or melee attacks.

Finally, we have the last player, whose character doesn't really mesh. He's rather bored during games as a result of it. He's playing a Bard whose spell list and build is entirely about buffing Diplomacy. In a Hack-N-Slash campaign. He's useless, quite frankly.

He wants to try a new class but doesn't know what to play at all. All I know is that he doesn't want to play a support class, so remaking his Bard is out. What kinds of classes would be a good addition for a very cohesive party like mine?

[eggynack]

You seem to be missing a primary arcane caster, so a wizard or something could work reasonably. Could be a bit out of the party's league if played well though. Factotum is always a good option, with a bunch of skill stuff along with some strong combat abilities of various kinds. It's worth note, however, that bard doesn't necessarily have to be all about support. A well chosen list could turn that character into a competent arcane caster, and you can even use inspire courage optimization to personally explode folks.

[Karl Aegis]

Well, if they don't care about optimization just roll up your stats and randomly choose a class.

[Qc Storm]

Good ol sorcerer. Make sure he grabs haste, that party could make great use out of it.

[DMVerdandi]

Easy Bake Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325933-Easy-Bake-Wizard-Handbook)

[WeaselGuy]

I know you said he wants to try a new class, but with 4 out of the other 6 players being physical (you actually have 7 players >.>), a DFI Bard would be extremely useful, especially in a Hack-n-Slash campaign. Just by playing his lute or singing (I recommend singing), he can add+xd6 to damage rolls for everyone involved.

If you wanted to give him a bit of a power boost while still keeping things different for him, look up the Bardsader (combing Bard with Crusader) and taking Song of the White Raven, to progress Inspire Courage with Crusader levels. I recommend Silverbrow Human as the race.

[HammeredWharf]

Wizard sounds good, but...


All I know is that he doesn't want to play a support class, so remaking his Bard is out.

Bard isn't just a support class. With Snowflake Wardance and Inspire Courage, he can become a nasty damage dealer.

[Firest Kathon]

Looking at the party, I think a rogue-like character would not be too bad. Not necessarily a Rogue, but a skillful character with some kind of sneak attack or similar as secondary DPS. Trapfinding and -disabling may be quite useful in a dungeon environment.

[lytokk]

I'd think straight up crusader could do pretty good. Give some boosts to party members, take some weight off the healer and some hate off of the fighter. He may end up making the fighter redundant is the only problem I can think of.

Other than that, swordsage. Not quite a rogue, but would do well in the party.

[Doctor Awkward]

A Factotum fits well in any group.

Binder is also an excellent addition to any group that already has the roles mostly taken care of. Every day he can choose to be the party face, another backup tank, a suitable damage dealer, a backup arcane caster, or a combination of these when he can bind more than one vestige.

[Trasilor]

With this many players your sixth person has lots of options. From Barbarian to Wizard, almost anything can be fun.

As mentioned before, it is very possible to redo the bard into a fighting force to be reckoned with. Check out the Bard Handbook for ideas (or ask the playgrounders :smallamused: )

I suggest talking to the person to find out what type of character they want their next character to be. Melee, caster or some combination of both will help determine what class to suggest.

The biggest problem you may be facing is the fact you are running The World's Largest Dungeon. This player seems like they were hoping for more roleplaying than hack-n-slash. Perhaps you can modify some of the encounter such that fighting may not be the best option. Really let the bard (and player) shine through their diplomatic skills. TWLD could easily include warring factions within the dungeon vying for control over some type of resource. If the factions are equally matched - the PCs may tip conflict into the favor of one or the other group.

[Darrin]

Warlock. If he can find anything worth talking to, he can use Beguiling Influence.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just have him remake the Bard to be more combat focused, preferably switch to Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) . Go with Silverbrow Human in Dragon Magic, get the feat Dragonfire Inspiration in Dragon Magic, along with Melodic Casting in Complete Mage and Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Replace Countersong with Spellbreaker Song in CM, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack in PH2, swap Fascinate with Healing Hymn in CC, and at 6th trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart in ECS. You can trade Handle Animal for Gather Information as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), so the reverse should also be permissible, since he'll want Handle Animal for his Wild Cohort.

His spells known should include Inspirational Boost in Spell Compendium, and Glitterdust is a superb choice. His items should include a Badge of Valor from MIC p208, and an Elvencraft Composite Shortbow from Races of the Wild. Elvencraft shortbows can function as a club or a shortbow, so he'll need to buy masterwork twice, but he should also be able to put two Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape in that. He can use Eternal Wands in MIC regardless of what spell they contain, good choices for those include Web and Command Undead, though they're too expensive to get immediately. With Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor, his Dragonfire Inspiration will add +3d6 fire damage to everyone's attacks, including his wild cohort's and his and the Ranger's bow attacks. His wild cohort should be a war-trained riding dog, and say he's used handle animal to add the Warbeast template in MM2 to that.

[Doctor Awkward]

Just have him remake the Bard to be more combat focused, preferably switch to Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) . Go with Silverbrow Human in Dragon Magic, get the feat Dragonfire Inspiration in Dragon Magic, along with Melodic Casting in Complete Mage and Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Replace Countersong with Spellbreaker Song in CM, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack in PH2, swap Fascinate with Healing Hymn in CC, and at 6th trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart in ECS. You can trade Handle Animal for Gather Information as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), so the reverse should also be permissible, since he'll want Handle Animal for his Wild Cohort.

If you trade away Fascinate for Healing Hymn you also lose suggestion, since they are part of a chain.

Don't wait until level 6. Swap Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart at level 3.

[Darrin]

Don't wait until level 6. Swap Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart at level 3.

Yeah... about that....

ECS:
"Song of the Heart [General]
Prerequisites: Bardic music class feature, inspire competence ability, Perform 6 ranks."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you trade away Fascinate for Healing Hymn you also lose suggestion, since they are part of a chain.

Don't wait until level 6. Swap Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart at level 3.

They're not part of a chain, you can't use Suggestion on anyone who's not already Fascinated. Not gaining Fascinate has absolutely no effect on whether or not you gain Suggestion, it just changes whether or not you're able to make use of it once you have it. The only reason to keep Fascinate is because it saves you from spending a spell known on that to use Suggestion, but if you're not going to gain Suggestion then you may as well swap out Fascinate, too.

You need to have Inspire Competence before you can even take Song of the Heart, so it's impossible to swap that out for it. According to the rules on leveling up (PHB p58-59) you don't gain class features until after you've gained your skills and feats, so you can't even spend your 3rd level feat on Song of the Heart. The earliest you can get it is 6th, whether by spending a feat or out trading Suggestion.

[Doctor Awkward]

You need to have Inspire Competence before you can even take Song of the Heart, so it's impossible to swap that out for it. According to the rules on leveling up (PHB p58-59) you don't gain class features until after you've gained your skills and feats, so you can't even spend your 3rd level feat on Song of the Heart. The earliest you can get it is 6th, whether by spending a feat or out trading Suggestion.

Yes, but those feats are different. Per the ECS:


Reflecting this connection to the forces of creation, bards have access to a number of feats that extend the powers of their bardic music. A bard can take these feats any time she would normally gain a feat, or can choose one of them as a bonus feat instead of gaining a new form of bardic music at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, or 18th level.

If that feat replaces something, then that something can't be also be prereq for it. It's essentially an alternate class feature. I have always interpreted it that way in games I've run, and every game I've played in has also allowed it (especially with how useless inspire competence is).

[Lerondiel]

Yup, for safe places to rest, haste, invisibility, flight, teleporting, scouting, opening doors, interrogating....basically everything the party cant already do....vote #1 Wizard....for players with less experience Sorcerer (just dont teach them to combine spells with the druid on the animal companion lol)

[Troacctid]

Yes, but those feats are different. Per the ECS:



If that feat replaces something, then that something can't be also be prereq for it. It's essentially an alternate class feature. I have always interpreted it that way in games I've run, and every game I've played in has also allowed it (especially with how useless inspire competence is).

Unless the text specifically states otherwise, you have to meet the prerequisites even for a feat that is taken as a bonus feat. Even if it feels like a class feature to you, it is still a feat, and the prerequisite exists to limit the levels at which it can be taken.

[Doctor Awkward]

Unless the text specifically states otherwise, you have to meet the prerequisites even for a feat that is taken as a bonus feat. Even if it feels like a class feature to you, it is still a feat, and the prerequisite exists to limit the levels at which it can be taken.

Given that it lacks the language found in Fighter bonus feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm#bonusFeats) (i.e.: "A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums."), I'd venture that it does say otherwise.

Even if the DM disagrees with that interpretation, it's still not an unfair request to make, again pointing out that inspire competence is literally made of suck.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Given that it lacks the language found in Fighter bonus feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm#bonusFeats) (i.e.: "A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums."), I'd venture that it does say otherwise.

Even if the DM disagrees with that interpretation, it's still not an unfair request to make, again pointing out that inspire competence is literally made of suck.

Given that it lacks the language found in Monk bonus feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#bonusFeat) (i.e.: "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them."), I'd venture to say that it does indeed hold true that you must still meet the prerequisites of bonus feats unless stated otherwise.

The general rule is that you must meet the prerequisites of whatever feats you wish to take, and you automatically lose the benefit of any feat for which you no longer meet the prerequisites. The Monk bonus feats description is an exception to that rule; the Fighter bonus feats description is a reminder that the general rule is still in place.

[Doctor Awkward]

Given that it lacks the language found in Monk bonus feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#bonusFeat) (i.e.: "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them."), I'd venture to say that it does indeed hold true that you must still meet the prerequisites of bonus feats unless stated otherwise.

Or it's an oversight that wasn't caught in editing. Very possible since the choices are far less restrictive than Monk's are, what with picking from a specific list (like fighter) instead of "pick from these two feats at these specific levels". Since it's also not addressed at all in the errata, the intent is unclear.

And again, it's not like we're talking about Words of Creation here. Getting Song of the Heart at level 3 without wasting a feat is anything but game breaking.