PC's Knowing How to Fight Swarms

[Diarmuid]

I'm running my group through Kingmaker and they're still relatively low level. They ran across a couple Spider Swarms, which can be very difficult for a group that size.

I wanted to give them some opportunity to realise the best way to fight these creatures, but the standard "Knowledge check for identifying monsters" didnt quite seem appropriate as swarms can come in many different forms (animal, construct, vermin, magical beats, etc).

Rather than bog down the group while I tried to figure out the best solution, I went with Kn: Nature checks which a couple people succeeded on and luckily those people has spells and things like acid flasks to deal with the swarms, but barring that I'm not sure what a better way to handle that would have been

Thoughts?

[Fouredged Sword]

Eh, at some point you need players to understand the mechanics of the game. I just up and tell players that they KNOW the basic meaning of the various creature descriptors and subtypes out there. They KNOW what a swarm of tiny animals is immune or weak to. The initial knowledge check on seeing the creature tells them some or all of the types and subtypes.

[Greenish]

I'd allow any Knowledge that can be used to identify monsters with swarm subtype, maybe with a bump to the DC if the monster in question isn't relevant to the skill to represent having to try to generalize specifics.

That and/or Knowledge (History) if you go the 3.5 way by having it double as knowledge of tactics.

[Flickerdart]

It's a swarm of little things. Any swordsman will know that whacking it with a sword is going to do jack just by looking at it. I wouldn't even ask for a check.

[Psyren]

I wanted to give them some opportunity to realise the best way to fight these creatures, but the standard "Knowledge check for identifying monsters" didnt quite seem appropriate as swarms can come in many different forms (animal, construct, vermin, magical beats, etc).

Save for determining the specific flavor of knowledge the party needs to roll, the type is actually irrelevant - "swarm traits" is a universal special quality that applies to all of them. To be blunt, you are adding complications where none need exist.

Whatever knowledge check they would need to uncover the other special qualities possessed by that swarm will suffice here.

[danzibr]

This thread made me realize...

My parties almost never (maybe never?) use knowledge checks to identify monsters. Hm.

[Diarmuid]

Knowing your sword wont do jack is different than knowing that they're especially vulnerable to AoE effects, or that a magic weapon with an elemental property will still effect them the same way.

Maybe you dont like the level of complexity in your games, but not every 2nd level PC knows the vunlerabilities and special abilities of every monster they meet.

[Coidzor]

I'm running my group through Kingmaker and they're still relatively low level. They ran across a couple Spider Swarms, which can be very difficult for a group that size.

I wanted to give them some opportunity to realise the best way to fight these creatures, but the standard "Knowledge check for identifying monsters" didnt quite seem appropriate as swarms can come in many different forms (animal, construct, vermin, magical beats, etc).

Rather than bog down the group while I tried to figure out the best solution, I went with Kn: Nature checks which a couple people succeeded on and luckily those people has spells and things like acid flasks to deal with the swarms, but barring that I'm not sure what a better way to handle that would have been

Thoughts?

DC 5 Wisdom or Intelligence check about how individually smashing one or two small things isn't going to do much when there's still a huge, writhing mass. Especially since only some swarms can even be targeted by normal attacks in the first place. DC 10 Wisdom or Intelligence check to realize some kind of splash damage or attack that effects an entire area is called for. Give 'em a +5 to their rolls on each after they try to target a swarm and then realize they can't because the rules don't allow for it, a +2 if they attack a swarm that can be targeted by normal attacks and see how less than stellar it is.

No idea for what to call for if they have flaming weapons and the like but don't know as players that they work against swarms, though.

I must admit, I've only ever played with groups where at least one player knew about swarms and told the other players about it and to keep some acid or alchemist's fire handy on their character sheet during char gen the same way every new player should be advised by experienced players to have a few spare daggers.


Knowing your sword wont do jack is different than knowing that they're especially vulnerable to AoE effects, or that a magic weapon with an elemental property will still effect them the same way.

Sure, but knowing your sword won't do jack, nor will any other individual attack, should naturally lead to the conclusion that an attack that effects the entire swarm or area that the swarm is in is called for if one has an awareness of AoE effects at all.

I certainly wouldn't punish a player for metagaming when they see swarms and break out the AoE spells and splash weapons, though.


This thread made me realize...

My parties almost never (maybe never?) use knowledge checks to identify monsters. Hm.

It's always been a sort of split in my experience. Something common like kobolds or goblins or PHB races you don't have to roll to be able to identify. Something rarer, like a mind flayer when we've previously not seen or heard of them or had any indication that they were about, then those have rolls called for. Same goes for telling the difference between a mind flayer and a mind flayer of thoon. Regardless of what it is, you have to roll to find out about its traits and abilities in-character.

[Urpriest]

In practice, there are lots of monster abilities that appear across multiple types. It's kind of an inherent flaw in the monster knowledge rules that you can know, for example, that a red dragon breathes fire, but not that a red dracolich does. (And yes that isn't the most obvious example since being undead could conceivably change a breath weapon, but I'm sure you can think of clearer examples of the same form.) It also shows up in that it's harder to know, for example, that a red dragon breathes fire, depending on the age of the red dragon.

If you want to fix this sort of thing, one simple way is to fix the knowledge DC to know a particular piece of general monster knowledge at the lowest DC for knowing that about any given monster. So to know swarm traits, you'd just have to pass the check for the weakest published swarm.

[Psyren]

Knowing your sword wont do jack is different than knowing that they're especially vulnerable to AoE effects, or that a magic weapon with an elemental property will still effect them the same way.

Not quite - the elemental property will, but the weapon itself usually won't. And that is pretty easy to suss out for most of these because the elemental property is obviously a form of energy.



Maybe you dont like the level of complexity in your games, but not every 2nd level PC knows the vunlerabilities and special abilities of every monster they meet.

Those aren't hard weaknesses to figure out though. You grow up just about anywhere medieval; you'll probably see clouds of flies getting blown away from carrion by a strong wind. You'll see rats pouring out of a burning slum, barn or ship. You'll see people waving torches to ward off mosquitoes, or in a more modern/magical society they might use an alchemical vapor, ointment or aerosol of some kind. And conversely, you'll probably see desperate folk attempting to stomp on and eventually flee from a plague like this.

As for flaming weapons, they are actually covered in flame, like a torch. If a bunch of spiders are coming at you, you don't need Elminster to do the math on that, especially since the flames will logically help against their webs too. At some point, common sense is indeed common, and in D&D that point is somewhere at or below DC 10.

Now if the spiders are special spiders that resist fire, that would be a harder check that might genuinely trip someone up.


In practice, there are lots of monster abilities that appear across multiple types. It's kind of an inherent flaw in the monster knowledge rules that you can know, for example, that a red dragon breathes fire, but not that a red dracolich does. (And yes that isn't the most obvious example since being undead could conceivably change a breath weapon, but I'm sure you can think of clearer examples of the same form.) It also shows up in that it's harder to know, for example, that a red dragon breathes fire, depending on the age of the red dragon.

If you want to fix this sort of thing, one simple way is to fix the knowledge DC to know a particular piece of general monster knowledge at the lowest DC for knowing that about any given monster. So to know swarm traits, you'd just have to pass the check for the weakest published swarm.

I originally thought of Behirs vs. Blue Dragons for this (big, blue-scaled monsters that breathe lightning) but it just so happens that their different types fall under the same knowledge skill (arcana.)

Still, I think "that's a swarm" should be easy enough to discern, and common enough knowledge, that it at least gets you the more obvious bits of the swarm traits - use energy or wind, don't bother with mundane pointy things unless they're bigger than a coffee mug etc.

[Eldariel]

Knowing your sword wont do jack is different than knowing that they're especially vulnerable to AoE effects, or that a magic weapon with an elemental property will still effect them the same way.

Maybe you dont like the level of complexity in your games, but not every 2nd level PC knows the vunlerabilities and special abilities of every monster they meet.

I dunno, if I see 100 X in one place, it seems pretty trivial for me to say that things that affect the whole area those 100 X reside in are going to be effective (provided an individual X is affected by whatever is affecting the whole area). You don't go around shooting hornets in a nest with a gun in real life either, it's either flamethrower or poison. And I don't think anyone needs to be told that attacking a nest of swarm animals with a knife is a bad idea. That's just common sense and I don't think you should have to roll anything to realize that "things that affect larger areas = good".

Now, more specific details such as what an individual Hellwasp is vulnerable to, sure, roll away, but as long as the PCs are aware that they're actually looking at a swarm of things (with some pseudonatural things I suppose that part might require rolls), I'd say they also know they need AOE to really hurt it.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe you dont like the level of complexity in your games, but not every 2nd level PC knows the vunlerabilities and special abilities of every monster they meet.
You must be an epic-level monk - jumping from "it's obvious that a pointy stick isn't going to hurt this swarm of bees" to "here's the monster's entry, feel free to take notes" is a hell of a DC, but you nailed it.

[Dungeon_Master]

hi and thanks for your question, here is the best answer I can give you by RAW:
no check is generally required to "size" a creature
identification of a type or subtype of creature only requires a dc10 check(trained only).

a dc 10 knowledge(nature) check would not identify a 2 HD Vermin(dc10+HD), with an additional piece of information for every 5 points you exceed the DC, but gives you a creature's type and subtype in this case:
Diminutive Vermin (Swarm)

when a character successfully identify a creature's type and subtypes (dc10), read them the information in the glossary in the back of the monster manual 1 for monsters of that generic type and subtype.

if they manage to identify it (dc10+HD) tell them its name. (in this unusual case, the brief description already tells them it is a spider swarm mentioning specifically spider)

for each 5 points they exceed the DC, tell them either a special attack, defense or quality (player choice)

in this case It only has 1 unique ability
Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 11, initial and secondary damage 1d3 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based

the distraction quality is there, but it is a function of being a swarm, so with a dc17 knowledge check you can know everything there is to know about a 2HD spider swarm.

if the character lacks knowledge local, just read them the "description text" for the monster in this case:
A horrible, scuttling army of hand-sized spiders scrambles forward.