Does Smiting end ongoing buff?

[noce]

Hi every one! This is my first post, though I've been a lurker in this forum for quite long :smalltongue:
We're starting our first 5e campaign and I was considering to play a paladin, but I have a big question and can't find an answer on the internet.

So, let's say the fight starts and on my turn I cast Bless. On my second round I decide to cast Searing Smite and take the attack action.
Given that Smite spells require concentration, does this end the Bless effect?

RAW it seems so, but it's so bad I can't believe it :smallconfused:
Concentration is so precious and hard to maintain that disrupting your own buffs to basically use a class feature adds insult to injury...
Thank you for your replies :smallsmile:

[pibby]

Unfortunately yes, casting a smite spell ends concentration on any other spell you have casted. You can of course ask your DM if you can cast Searing Smite without the save or suck benefit as a homebrew rule. If he says no, asking him if you will be able to find such a magical item in the future that will let you cast a smite spell while holding concentration.

[calebrus]

Concentration is so precious and hard to maintain that disrupting your own buffs to basically use a class feature adds insult to injury...

You're not talking about using a class feature.
You're talking about casting a different spell which requires concentration.
The class feature doesn't cast a spell. It sacrifices a spell slot to do additional damage. Doing that doesn't require concentration.

With that said, our table uses the smite spells a little differently than the RAW states.
Our houserule:
When a Paladin at our table casts a smite spell, the spell works as instantaneous for that round. As the smite spells only work on the first attack that hits, if he hits during that round there's nothing to concentrate on. If for some reason the Paladin misses (every attack) that round, he has to choose which of the spells he wants to keep. Does he want to keep the smite active, or does he want to keep the buff active?
So the smite spells are instantaneous at our table, unless he misses, at which point it becomes concentration if he wants to keep it.

[noce]

You're not talking about using a class feature.
You're talking about casting a different spell which requires concentration.
The class feature doesn't cast a spell. It sacrifices a spell slot to do additional damage. Doing that doesn't require concentration.

Yes, I know the difference between the two :smallsmile: I was referring to Smite Evil being a paladin class feature in 3.5, since my group has always played 3.5 :smallsmile:



With that said, our table uses the smite spells a little differently than the RAW states.
Our houserule:
When a Paladin at our table casts a smite spell, the spell works as instantaneous for that round. As the smite spells only work on the first attack that hits, if he hits during that round there's nothing to concentrate on. If for some reason the Paladin misses (every attack) that round, he has to choose which of the spells he wants to keep. Does he want to keep the smite active, or does he want to keep the buff active?
So the smite spells are instantaneous at our table, unless he misses, at which point it becomes concentration if he wants to keep it.

And this, this is just what I was thinking about :smallbiggrin:
If I manage to land my Smite spell in the same round I cast it, I shouldn't even concentrate on it (except for effects that keep going on after the hit).

By the way guys, you're super fast at answering! :smallbiggrin:

[Mellack]

The spells do take concentration so they will end your buff. You can ask your DM to change that, as suggested above. I want to point out that the feature of Divine Smite does NOT take concentration, and does more damage to boot, although you lose the lingering effects. You are probably better off using that Searing Smite spell slot to power a Divine Smite instead.

[calebrus]

And this, this is just what I was thinking about :smallbiggrin:
If I manage to land my Smite spell in the same round I cast it, I shouldn't even concentrate on it (except for effects that keep going on after the hit).

Yeah, but it's really a moot point, because as Mellack said, using the class feature is more bang for your buck with the slots. So the only real reason to use the smite spells is for the rider effects, and those are the parts that require concentration (in our game). I'm AFB, but if I recall correctly there's only one smite spell that this wouldn't apply to.
So if you want to hold onto an effect after the fact, use the spell and concentrate. If you just want the smite damage, use the feature.

[Mandragola]

I have never used the smite spells so far, or actually the other concentration spells. I don't find concentration spells very useful for a front-rank character as keeping them going is always a challenge. I generally use spell slots for smiting "directly" rather than using a smite spell and sometimes for stuff like hold person.

Just to be totally clear on the rules for the OP, there is smite (where you give up a spell slot at the moment you hit to do 2d8 extra damage) and there are smite spells (which take a bonus action to cast prior to bashing a guy and require concentration). When you use a normal smite it doesn't require concentration so you get to keep your other buff running.

[Chronos]

There are two other reasons to use the spells themselves. First of all, you can use both a smiting spell and the class feature on the same attack, if you need to take down a target quickly. Second, if you have a mount from the Find Mount spell, then you can share your spells with it, so it can smite, too.

Oh, and Thundering Smite does nearly as much damage as the class feature, plus a couple of rider effects with an unusual save. And a few spells can outdo the class feature, if cast from a 5th-level slot (for some reason, the class feature stops scaling after 4th).

[charcoalninja]

There are two other reasons to use the spells themselves. First of all, you can use both a smiting spell and the class feature on the same attack, if you need to take down a target quickly. Second, if you have a mount from the Find Mount spell, then you can share your spells with it, so it can smite, too.

Oh, and Thundering Smite does nearly as much damage as the class feature, plus a couple of rider effects with an unusual save. And a few spells can outdo the class feature, if cast from a 5th-level slot (for some reason, the class feature stops scaling after 4th).

class feature deals listed damage at level 1 plus another additional die for each additional level to a max of 4d8 additional (ie a 5th level slot). for 5d8 additional damage total (numbers could be off, but the phrasing used in the feature isn't.)

[pwykersotz]

I also thought it was unfortunate at first, but I view it as more of a feature than a bug now.

The Paladin can smite anytime he wants, and only needs to declare it on a hit. That's the class feature. The spells allow even more bursty damage, and as Concentration spells, they can be recovered if the Paladin whiffs his attack. When the Paladin DOES connect (which is nearly inevitable over the course of a minute) the spell goes off and is not wasted.

That extra power comes at the cost of not fulfilling the role of a cleric for that combat. He can have bless up and still do massive smitey damage. In fact, he can do even more damage overall if he just feeds his class feature. The only thing you're missing if you eschew spellcasting is battlefield control and status effects, which are based on saves, adding another point of failure.

So yeah, I'd argue they aren't hurt at all. I don't think the earlier mentioned houserule is a bad idea, in fact it looks pretty cool, but it is unneccessary. Paladins still rock.

[calebrus]

Oh, and Thundering Smite does nearly as much damage as the class feature, plus a couple of rider effects with an unusual save. And a few spells can outdo the class feature, if cast from a 5th-level slot (for some reason, the class feature stops scaling after 4th).

Only one of the smite spells gains additional dice from a higher level slot. That one is Brandishing Smite, which uses d6, and is worse than using the feature from a damage perspective.
None of the other smite spells gain any benefit from being cast in a higher level slot.
There is only one smite spell that does more damage than the feature. That one is Banishing Smite, which uses d10 and is a 5th level spell.
So to get more damage than a class feature Divine Smite in a 4th level slot, you need to cast a spell which requires concentration from a 5th level slot, and even then the average increase in damage from that spell will be approximately 5 points.

The feature is better in terms of damage in every way.

The only reason to use the spells are:
a) for the rider effects
b) if you want to nova and blow two slots in one round
c) if you are mounted on your steed and want your steed to smite as well (this is why most of them don't scale, and I believe that they simply *forgot* to remove the scaling from the one that does - because a Pally on his steed is indeed an even greater force to be reckoned with)

Unless one of those three things is your goal, you should not use the spells and simply use the feature instead.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

The Paladin can smite anytime he wants, and only needs to declare it on a hit. That's the class feature. The spells allow even more bursty damage, and as Concentration spells, they can be recovered if the Paladin whiffs his attack. When the Paladin DOES connect (which is nearly inevitable over the course of a minute) the spell goes off and is not wasted.

I must be misreading something here. How can a Concentration spell be "recovered"? I didn't think a Paladin could expend a spell slot for his Smite feature using a slot that was in use?


Paladins still rock.

That you needed to even state this fills me with the sort of galling, religious fury that would actually make me a Vengeance Paladin if we lived in that sort of world.

[calebrus]

I must be misreading something here. How can a Concentration spell be "recovered"? I didn't think a Paladin could expend a spell slot for his Smite feature using a slot that was in use?

pwyk meant that, as a concentration spell that goes off when an attack hits, it differs from most attack spells that are expended whether you hit or not.
If you miss all of your attacks, the spell isn't wasted. Concentration keeps it up until you *do* hit.

Compare to other casters' attack spells.
You roll to hit. You whiff. Your spell slot is wasted.
With a Pally using a smite spell, you roll to hit. You whiff. You hold onto it until next round and try again, almost as if you're casting the spell anew. Almost as if you recovered the slot and tried again, at the cost of concentration.

[Chronos]

Only one of the smite spells gains additional dice from a higher level slot.
Huh, how'd I overlook that? It looks like you're right. Then again, with the way spell preparation works now, it doesn't matter as much: Just prepare one smite spell of each level, if you want to be able to scale them.

And while paladins are pretty good at nova damage, they're absolutely amazing at defense not just for themselves but for their whole party. That, I think, is the real core of the class, and the fact that they can also do damage when needed is just gravy.

[calebrus]

And while paladins are pretty good at nova damage, they're absolutely amazing at defense not just for themselves but for their whole party. That, I think, is the real core of the class, and the fact that they can also do damage when needed is just gravy.

Yep.
Pally 6 (any Oath) / Bard 14 (Lore preferred, but either works) is an absolutely amazing support character, and one that can also drop the hurt when he wants to.

[Fwiffo86]

Might be interested to know you can layer the Smite spell, WITH the smite class ability to drop the hammer on something.

[calebrus]

Might be interested to know you can layer the Smite spell, WITH the smite class ability to drop the hammer on something.

Yes you can and that's exactly how a Paladin can nova so well.
Bonus action smite spell > attack > hit > add smite and divine smite + 2nd attack > hit > add divine smite

But once again, that's only if you want one of the three effects above. Without wanting one of them, you're better off with this:
Attack > hit > add divine smite > 2nd attack > hit > add divine smite > bonus attack (if available due to 2wf or PM or whatever) > hit > add divine smite.
This second one is more damage. And Divine Smite doesn't have any requirements because you're not casting a spell, so a TWF Paladin can lay the HURT down. Same number of slots (but usually lower level slots) and more damage, without the need to concentrate.

If you're using the spell point variant, a Paladin should always use 1st level 2d8 smites, because then you can basically do it all damned day.

[MeeposFire]

class feature deals listed damage at level 1 plus another additional die for each additional level to a max of 4d8 additional (ie a 5th level slot). for 5d8 additional damage total (numbers could be off, but the phrasing used in the feature isn't.)

You made a mistake. You have the max total correct at 5d8 but the way you get there is wrong.

You get 2d8 with a 1st level spell slot and 1d8 more per spell level above. That means that you max out with 4th level spells at 5d8. 5th level spells and above get no more benefit though they may benefit certain smite spells.

[Chronos]

Quoth calebrus:

Pally 6 (any Oath) / Bard 14 (Lore preferred, but either works) is an absolutely amazing support character, and one that can also drop the hurt when he wants to.
Why not go one more paladin level? You're missing out on the aura from your oath.

[calebrus]

Why not go one more paladin level? You're missing out on the aura from your oath.

Paladin 7 and Bard 14 are both subclass abilities. One's an Aura, the other is either Peerless Skill or Battle Magic. It makes little difference either way which one you choose, and which one you choose will probably depend on which Oath you took.

[pwykersotz]

pwyk meant that, as a concentration spell that goes off when an attack hits, it differs from most attack spells that are expended whether you hit or not.
If you miss all of your attacks, the spell isn't wasted. Concentration keeps it up until you *do* hit.

Compare to other casters' attack spells.
You roll to hit. You whiff. Your spell slot is wasted.
With a Pally using a smite spell, you roll to hit. You whiff. You hold onto it until next round and try again, almost as if you're casting the spell anew. Almost as if you recovered the slot and tried again, at the cost of concentration.

Exactly this. :smallsmile: