Investigator - Possible One Shot One Kill Build

[NightbringerGGZ]

Hi everybody,

I've been toying with the idea of a mini-guide for sniper / one shot builds since its a fairly popular goal. As part of this goal I've been looking at various possible builds and I'd like some help evaluating how the Investigator can perform in this role. Specifically, I'm wondering if a Kirin Strike build combined with Focused Shot would be worth building towards.

The feats you need are Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Focused Shot, Ranged Study, Improved Unarmed Strike, Kirin Style and Kirin Strike.

The idea: Spend 1 round to study a target (both through Studied Combat and Kirin Style) and move into range for your attack. On the second round, unleash a single attack with a Composite bow, gaining your Str modifier, 3x your Int modifier and activating Studied Strike. Thanks this studied combat this is highly accurate damage. You can use your Extracts & Mutagens to pump up your damage dealing attributes to insane levels.

Downsides: So far it looks like you'll have to stick to within 30 feed of the target. You have a ton of feats to pick up and the build isn't fully online until level 9.

So, what do you guys think? I think multi-classing needs to be a part of this build at the minimum, but I think you could have a ton of fun with it too.

[avr]

You need another swift action to start using the style:

As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, ...
i.e. one swift action to start using the style, a second to identify the monster's weakness using kirin style, a third to do damage using kirin strike. It's the infuriating part of the kirin series, the time required to get it working.

[Psyren]

Well, Sniper Goggles let you SA from any distance, but I don't think they work for other kinds of precision damage or whether there is a counterpart/spell that does.

[grarrrg]

3x your Int modifier

Good news/Bad news:
Good: I can save you a feat!
Bad: You can't stack INT>Damage (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm)

Neither Focused Shot nor Kirin Strike is a 'typed' bonus, both are "add INT mod to damage", so they don't stack.
Best you can get is a the INTx2 from Kirin.


Well, Sniper Goggles let you SA from any distance, but I don't think they work for other kinds of precision damage or whether there is a counterpart/spell that does.

Kind of a moot point anyway, as Ranged Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ranged-study) has a strict limit of 30ft.

Might be better off going Slayer for a Ranged build. Lower '1-shot bonuses', but can actually function at longer ranges.

[Snowbluff]

While I can't comment on the Investigator aside from don't use it, I do offer the idea of using Saddle Surge + Greater Named Bullet + Litany of Rigteousness as a possible starter to one of these combos. Well, saddle surge + litany does a good job for a lot.

Another is the Stegosaurus Vital Strike Druid. Add in barbarian for the feat that maxes the damage, and then fatigue immunity. This isn't good for archery, though.

Synthesist Bigger Fish with Pummeling Style/Charge would be a good one, because you have arms for more bows.

[NightbringerGGZ]

You need another swift action to start using the style:

i.e. one swift action to start using the style, a second to identify the monster's weakness using kirin style, a third to do damage using kirin strike. It's the infuriating part of the kirin series, the time required to get it working.

Well, you can abuse the rule that you don't have to leave a style to maintain it indefinitely. Cheesy, but not uncommon cheese based on my experience. That means turn 1 you use a Move & Swift to activate Kirin Style & Studied Combat, do your damage on the second.

As for the 3x Int Damage, I'm pretty sure we can rules lawyer around it reasonably as the ruling has left a loop hole. The ruling in question refers to adding your ability modifier bonus twice to the same roll, and says you can't because ability modifier bonuses from different sources are the same bonus type and you can't stack bonuses of the same type on a single roll.

However, Focused Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/focused-shot-combat) is a bonus applied to a damage roll while Kirin Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kirin-strike-combat) is bonus damage activated by an attack roll.

Please poke holes in my argument if there are relevant rulings that counter it though.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions on 1-Shot builds! I'll start putting together lists for Melee & Ranged, but so far Ranged is looking to be annoyingly difficult unless you go Kineticist.

[skypse]

However, Focused Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/focused-shot-combat) is a bonus applied to a damage roll while Kirin Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kirin-strike-combat) is bonus damage activated by an attack roll.



you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage

add your Intelligence modifier on the damage roll
Apart from the word "roll" I see no difference between the two. Maybe the fact that Kirin Strike gives you the opportunity that you "can" add the number and someone could argue that the feat implies that someone could say "I chose to forgo the damage since I am not obligated" but I don't think something like that could even pass as an argument.
Other than that, I see no difference between the two. "Damage" comes after the attack roll, as well as the damage roll (hence the damage). Imho they don't stack so only Kirin Strike would be used since it gives a higher bonus.

[Mithril Leaf]

However, Focused Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/focused-shot-combat) is a bonus applied to a damage roll while Kirin Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kirin-strike-combat) is bonus damage activated by an attack roll.


I can see that working. You deal Int damage on the shot, then after the shot as an independent effect, you deal twice Int damage. The main thing is to identify them as separate independent actions. Although to be fair, I'd also say it works if you have an ability that says something like: "Use a swift action to makes your next shot a Brilliant Strike. Brilliant Strike shots deal additional damage equal to twice your Intelligence modifier." You're using focused shot to shoot an arrow that adds you Int damage which also adds Brilliant Strike damage. Brilliant Strike damage just so happens to be twice your Int modifier.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I can see that working. You deal Int damage on the shot, then after the shot as an independent effect, you deal twice Int damage. The main thing is to identify them as separate independent actions. Although to be fair, I'd also say it works if you have an ability that says something like: "Use a swift action to makes your next shot a Brilliant Strike. Brilliant Strike shots deal additional damage equal to twice your Intelligence modifier." You're using focused shot to shoot an arrow that adds you Int damage which also adds Brilliant Strike damage. Brilliant Strike damage just so happens to be twice your Int modifier.

Thanks! That's a much better way of explaining my reasoning on this one. I'm going to table this build for now, but I'll see if I can get some other opinions on the matter. This will never be an optimized build, but most of the "sniper" style builds aren't anyway.

[grarrrg]

I can see that working. You deal Int damage on the shot, then after the shot as an independent effect, you deal twice Int damage. The main thing is to identify them as separate independent actions.

:annoyed::sigh:

Yes, because one says "add INT IN damage", and the other says "add INT ON THE damage", those are totally different things.
There is no color blue that is blue enough for the level of sarcasm needed...

[Mithril Leaf]

:annoyed::sigh:

Yes, because one says "add INT IN damage", and the other says "add INT ON THE damage", those are totally different things.
There is no color blue that is blue enough for the level of sarcasm needed...

I mean, from a purely linguistic perspective those mean two different things. If Paizo wants to be silly by not allowing you to add the same ability modifier to things more than once while still allowing multiple different ability modifiers, then it only makes sense to be cheeky with it.

[Reprimand]

Do bonus stackings work differently in PF than 3.5? If two feats/abilities etc apply int to damage why wouldn't they stack? they're unnamed bonuses unless they were both the same type of bonus say: luck bonuses, enhancement bonuses, etc.

[grarrrg]

Do bonus stackings work differently in PF than 3.5? If two feats/abilities etc apply int to damage why wouldn't they stack? they're unnamed bonuses unless they were both the same type of bonus say: luck bonuses, enhancement bonuses, etc.

I linked the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk) above.
"An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking."

One of the discussed abilities adds INT to damage, the other adds INT to damage. Therefore they should not stack.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I linked the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk) above.
"An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking."

One of the discussed abilities adds INT to damage, the other adds INT to damage. Therefore they should not stack.

Well the gist of my argument is that you can't add the same type of bonus to the same roll, but Kirin Strike does not specify that the damage occurs on a damage roll, it specifies a secondary damage effect that is triggered by an attack.

I would argue that with Focused Shot you get an attack roll with your ranged weapon. If that weapon hits the weapon damage gets to add your Int Modifier to the damage roll. You have the option to activate Kirin Strike, which provides its own separate source of damage.

[Reprimand]

I linked the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk) above.
"An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking."

One of the discussed abilities adds INT to damage, the other adds INT to damage. Therefore they should not stack.

That's super weird o.O but then again I mostly play 3.5 so it's probably just more balanced and I'm just whining about it.

Sorry for butting in.