Daevic Wrath Optimization

[CashanDraven]

I am playing in a S&S campaign and had a character recently bite the dust, or ectoplasm as it were. My DM said he would allow the new Akashic mysteries material. After doing some reading, I decided on the Wrath passion for the Daevic, which at lvl 6, allows me to make a full attack with natural weapons instead of the AoO the ability normally provides.

The main issue is that monster CMD quickly gets out of hand, and that's not even taking the size limitations of bull rush or overrun abilities into the equation. I'm wondering if there is anyway to boost my effective size for the purpose of bull rush or overrun outside of the typical wands/potions,scrolls and whatnot. Also, note that I do not want to multiclass if I can avoid it as akashic class suffer greatly, but especially so for the Daevic.

This is what I have so far:

Daevic (wrath), Tiefling (Pitborn) Lvl 5.

Str-20
Dex-14
Int-10
Wis-10
Cha-20

Feats: Monstrous Mask, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush

Veils: Sea Drake's Talons, Wrathful Claws, Daevic Aspect (Wrath).

These veils give me 2 claws (1d8), 2 talons (1d4), and a +3 insight bonus on melee damage rolls. Combined with the Maw Tiefling alternate racial trait, this gives me 5 natural attacks, all of which are primary, for solid damage, provided of course I can succeed on the bull rush or overrun.

There is also a veil that allows for a free attack on a successful bull rush as a free action, and keeps me from provoking. It's not much but every little bit helps.

The main issue again, is that you cannot bull rush or overrun things more than one size category larger than yourself. I could take the martial training feats, and pick up the primal fury stance that allows me to count as large for this purpose as well as increasing the damage if all my natural weapons by 2 steps, for a solid increase in damage. However that is extremely feat intensive.

Side Note: I am also the party face, and it's for flavor reason I have the monstrous mask, as I plan on intimidating my way through things


Also the behemoth Hide veil, it makes you huge for resisting effects such as bull rush. the flavor of the ability seems as if it was meant to also allow things like the Daevic (wrath) ability, considering it's only available normally to the Daevic class itself.

[PsyBomb]

I am playing in a S&S campaign and had a character recently bite the dust, or ectoplasm as it were. My DM said he would allow the new Akashic mysteries material. After doing some reading, I decided on the Wrath passion for the Daevic, which at lvl 6, allows me to make a full attack with natural weapons instead of the AoO the ability normally provides.

The main issue is that monster CMD quickly gets out of hand, and that's not even taking the size limitations of bull rush or overrun abilities into the equation. I'm wondering if there is anyway to boost my effective size for the purpose of bull rush or overrun outside of the typical wands/potions,scrolls and whatnot. Also, note that I do not want to multiclass if I can avoid it as akashic class suffer greatly, but especially so for the Daevic.

This is what I have so far:

Daevic (wrath), Tiefling (Pitborn) Lvl 5.

Str-20
Dex-14
Int-10
Wis-10
Cha-20

Feats: Monstrous Mask, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush

Veils: Sea Drake's Talons, Wrathful Claws, Daevic Aspect (Wrath).

These veils give me 2 claws (1d8), 2 talons (1d4), and a +3 insight bonus on melee damage rolls. Combined with the Maw Tiefling alternate racial trait, this gives me 5 natural attacks, all of which are primary, for solid damage, provided of course I can succeed on the bull rush or overrun.

There is also a veil that allows for a free attack on a successful bull rush as a free action, and keeps me from provoking. It's not much but every little bit helps.

The main issue again, is that you cannot bull rush or overrun things more than one size category larger than yourself. I could take the martial training feats, and pick up the primal fury stance that allows me to count as large for this purpose as well as increasing the damage if all my natural weapons by 2 steps, for a solid increase in damage. However that is extremely feat intensive.

Side Note: I am also the party face, and it's for flavor reason I have the monstrous mask, as I plan on intimidating my way through things


Also the behemoth Hide veil, it makes you huge for resisting effects such as bull rush. the flavor of the ability seems as if it was meant to also allow things like the Daevic (wrath) ability, considering it's only available normally to the Daevic class itself.

I will start with a shameless plug for my guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1klD7v0-tfZeKm3oOyD12jOxPTBKv5_9Tc9Y6QIPAz6I/mobilebasic

That said, being a Tiefling is not ideal at your level. Outsider type prevents you from benefitting from Enlarge Person, the main way to get size at that level. Sobek are generally the best choice, especially since they add a natural attack to your pounce. You can probably ask to keep Monstrous Mask, but if not then a skill focus in Intimidate can work

[stack]

Unless going for an intimidate focused build, for which dominion-tyranny is a better fit, I would drop monstrous mask for an Akashic feat, probably expanded capacity or extra essence.

Paldrons of the bull are out of your price range now, but eventually rolling twice on bullrush checks is perfect. Quick runners shirt would help get you in position for a full attack, then you can get out of worrying about making the bullrush check at a key moment. Reasonably priced too.

The alternate gamla races would work even better, large size boosts your natural attack dice and both come with natural attacks. The reach is awesome as well. I believe they are currently humanoid, so enlarge person works.

[CashanDraven]

I will start with a shameless plug for my guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1klD7v0-tfZeKm3oOyD12jOxPTBKv5_9Tc9Y6QIPAz6I/mobilebasic

That said, being a Tiefling is not ideal at your level. Outsider type prevents you from benefitting from Enlarge Person, the main way to get size at that level. Sobek are generally the best choice, especially since they add a natural attack to your pounce. You can probably ask to keep Monstrous Mask, but if not then a skill focus in Intimidate can work

the guide was helpful, confirming many things which I was already looking at. However my DM said that the akashic races are being reworked heavily apparently and doesn't want me to take them seeing as they might change and hurt what I am doing.

[Ssalarn]

the guide was helpful, confirming many things which I was already looking at. However my DM said that the akashic races are being reworked heavily apparently and doesn't want me to take them seeing as they might change and hurt what I am doing.

The released races are pretty much done actually. There's a few tweaks to the hibkha and the solhafaat that I already announced in the thread (hibkha are -STR instead of DEX and lose Slow Speed, solhafaat are taking a hit to DEX instead of INT), but other than that they're pretty set. I even released the RP totals for people who use the ARG's race generation system.

[CashanDraven]

The released races are pretty much done actually. There's a few tweaks to the hibkha and the solhafaat that I already announced in the thread (hibkha are -STR instead of DEX and lose Slow Speed, solhafaat are taking a hit to DEX instead of INT), but other than that they're pretty set. I even released the RP totals for people who use the ARG's race generation system.

Talked to my DM and told him about this, having your insight pushed the approval. Now the only thing left to decide is what race to choose from. Sobek's have the stats and the bite, however Alqaurn have a gore option, and are large, which will be a nice boost my damage rolls not to mention the reach.

[Ssalarn]

Talked to my DM and told him about this, having your insight pushed the approval. Now the only thing left to decide is what race to choose from. Sobek's have the stats and the bite, however Alqaurn have a gore option, and are large, which will be a nice boost my damage rolls not to mention the reach.

Alqarn make badass daevics. I ran one in a high level one-off the other night that was modeled after a rhek Paladin/Monk I played back in the day.

On a related note, given that Tauric Brace and Immovable Boots have so much overlap, I'm changing Tauric Brace in the Daevic release so that instead of a CMD bonus, it increases your effective size for determining who/what you can target with your maneuvers by 1 size category per point of essence. Note that this is not a true size increase and so doesn't boost your CMB. The change will benefit the Vizier as well since it will increase the viability of his Light Whip, and since we haven't gone to print yet we can easily update the Vizier .pdf with this change.

[CashanDraven]

Alqarn make badass daevics. I ran one in a high level one-off the other night that was modeled after a rhek Paladin/Monk I played back in the day.

On a related note, given that Tauric Brace and Immovable Boots have so much overlap, I'm changing Tauric Brace in the Daevic release so that instead of a CMD bonus, it increases your effective size for determining who/what you can target with your maneuvers by 1 size category per point of essence. Note that this is not a true size increase and so doesn't boost your CMB. The change will benefit the Vizier as well since it will increase the viability of his Light Whip, and since we haven't gone to print yet we can easily update the Vizier .pdf with this change.

Just curious, when is the Daevic release. My DM likes being able to see things laid out in concrete whenever possible to avoid he said she said scenarios.

The change to Tauric Brace though would really help the Daevic, an effective size increase really helps given how quickly monster CMD scales as well as how often things are Huge+ at higher levels. This would allow more races to go the bull rush/overrun route, as that little change allows even small creatures to hit colossal creatures with 4 essence invested. You cannot deny the image of a halfling bull rushing/overruning a great wyrm is just hilarious.

[Ssalarn]

Final Daevic update will be up late tomorrow, and straight off for layout Friday evening. I've been sandbagging it a bit as I've waited to hear from a few key playtesters and reviewers, as well as incorporating some small but pervasive changes suggested in Endzeitgeist's review of the Vizier.

[CashanDraven]

Final Daevic update will be up late tomorrow, and straight off for layout Friday evening. I've been sandbagging it a bit as I've waited to hear from a few key playtesters and reviewers, as well as incorporating some small but pervasive changes suggested in Endzeitgeist's review of the Vizier.

Good to know, I really appreciate your feedback. I'm thinking a Feelkha would work well too, giving me a slam attack so that leaves my head slot open for Horns of the Minotaur later on down the road. So that gives me, 2 claws, 2 talons, a slam, a gore, a tail slap, and a free attack,albeit 1d6+Cha on a successful bull rush check. Well, eventually it does.

I'm thinking I should take the Tauric Brace as my regular veil to start with, and then just grab Sea Drake's Talon's as my passion later. I'd have less attacks now, but I they'd scale for free later down the line. Then again the bonus on SDT veil isn't that conductive towards melee combat, though it is a nice bonus in a S&S campaign.

So I'm thinking for the regular veils: Armbands of the Irked Elephant, Tauric Braces, Force Strike Knuckles (With the Twin Veil feat at 9), and Whirlpool Lash. Then for the passions: Daevic Aspect,Wrathful Claws, Horns of the Minotaur, Sea Drake's Talons.

[CashanDraven]

One thing I noticed, is that the Gamla (and their racial alternates seemingly), while being large, seemingly do not take the normal penalty to attack rolls that Large creatures do. Though I am assuming this an oversight in the Gamla racial write up.

[PsyBomb]

One thing I noticed, is that the Gamla (and their racial alternates seemingly), while being large, seemingly do not take the normal penalty to attack rolls that Large creatures do. Though I am assuming this an oversight in the Gamla racial write up.

They do. The racial write-ups are not complete rules for size increases, just a quick reminder. Pretty sure Ssalarn will add more notes to them before it hits PDF in the Supplemental release.

[Ssalarn]

They do. The racial write-ups are not complete rules for size increases, just a quick reminder. Pretty sure Ssalarn will add more notes to them before it hits PDF in the Supplemental release.

Yeah, I'm just waiting for final feedback on the races. When I compile them over I'll tag in the little "reminder" mechanics like the impact of Large size.

***EDIT***

Actually, I see that I already plugged them in and did, in fact, miss the -1 attack penalty. Fixing now.

***EDIT 2***

And fixed.

[CashanDraven]

They do. The racial write-ups are not complete rules for size increases, just a quick reminder. Pretty sure Ssalarn will add more notes to them before it hits PDF in the Supplemental release.

I was thinking as much, but it never hurts to mention it. An extra set of eyes can help from time to time. I've tried my hand at tweaking systems with new mechanics so I know how tedious it gets.

For now, I am thinking that using Martial Training III at lvl 7 to grab the Primal Warrior stance. It's a feat sink, but it would allow me to count as a Huge creature for bull rush bonuses, and increase my natural weapons by 2 steps. This would definitely help me lay the smacketh down upon mine foes.