Werewolves seem too weak to me

[supergoji18]

Maybe it's just me, but Werewolves seem extremely weak compared to what I normally envision when I think of them. When I think of a Werewolf, I think of something like this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uuWSOEAIs90/ScfZL-AMkOI/AAAAAAAAAZY/gcVXD1qus2c/s1600/SH+concept+post+werewolf+Greys.png

Big, Muscular, and can easily rip your face off with its bare hands.

When I look at the stats of a werewolf in the Monster Manual, they most certainly don't match what I think of.

15 strength? That's less strength than a Dire Wolf! You're telling me that the supernatural bipedal and even more muscular version of the creature is somehow LESS powerful? The same goes for its paltry 13 dex and 14 con. I feel a werewolf should have at least 17 strength and 20 dex.

We're Werewolves always like this? Or did 5e nerf them? And do you agree with me on this?

[pwykersotz]

They were like that in 3.5 too. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) They improve whatever the base person is. If a powerful warrior becomes a werewolf, it's much more deadly than if a commoner does. But yeah, I like to amp them up when I use them.

[eastmabl]

Largely, stats don't go past 20 in 5e.

Also, even in 3.5, the werewolf's stats weren't as hot as you imagine them - Str 15, Dex 15, Con 16.

[supergoji18]

They were like that in 3.5 too. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) They improve whatever the base person is. If a powerful warrior becomes a werewolf, it's much more deadly than if a commoner does. But yeah, I like to amp them up when I use them.

Largely, stats don't go past 20 in 5e.

Also, even in 3.5, the werewolf's stats weren't as hot as you imagine them - Str 15, Dex 15, Con 16.wow... That's not very impressive.

Honestly I don't see how being a werewolf is a benefit to a warrior, considering most will already have strength above the 15 werewolves provide and at least close to 13.

I may homebrew a werewolf to be a bit closer to what I expected (i.e. Should be able to go toe to toe with the Vampire).

Edit: what about other editions? I remember the werewolf island in Baldur's Gate being extremely dangerous because of all the werewolves.

[mephnick]

erewolf to be a bit closer to what I expected (i.e. Should be able to go toe to toe with the Vampire).

You've got some work to do then. Like..5xCR work.

I'd be interested to see how it goes though.

[Slipperychicken]

Werewolves are immune to nonmagical/nonsilvered weapon damage. That makes them basically invincible unless you're a caster or have that weapon type.


Also, I agree. The image right at the beginning of the Lycanthrope section depicts a werewolf which is far too jacked to be 15 strength.

[calebrus]

Also, I agree. The image right at the beginning of the Lycanthrope section depicts a werewolf which is far too jacked to be 15 strength.

Average strength is 10.
A guy that exercises regularly (or works somewhat strenuous manual labor) and keeps himself in shape is about 12.
A guy that goes to the gym and lifts regularly is about 13 or 14.
An amateur bodybuilder is about 15 or 16.
A competitive bodybuilder is about 17 or 18.
A world class bodybuilder would be a 19 or so.

A regular guy cursed to become a jacked up monster, gaining the strength of an amateur bodybuilder, sounds about right.

[Grayson01]

Average strength is 10.
A guy that exercises regularly (or works somewhat strenuous manual labor) and keeps himself in shape is about 12.
A guy that goes to the gym and lifts regularly is about 13 or 14.
An amateur bodybuilder is about 15 or 16.
A competitive bodybuilder is about 17 or 18.
A world class bodybuilder would be a 19 or so.

A regular guy cursed to become a jacked up monster, gaining the strength of an amateur bodybuilder, sounds about right.

You mean power lifter not bodybuilder.

[SiuiS]

Maybe it's just me, but Werewolves seem extremely weak compared to what I normally envision when I think of them. When I think of a Werewolf, I think of something like this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uuWSOEAIs90/ScfZL-AMkOI/AAAAAAAAAZY/gcVXD1qus2c/s1600/SH+concept+post+werewolf+Greys.png

Big, Muscular, and can easily rip your face off with its bare hands.

When I look at the stats of a werewolf in the Monster Manual, they most certainly don't match what I think of.

15 strength? That's less strength than a Dire Wolf! You're telling me that the supernatural bipedal and even more muscular version of the creature is somehow LESS powerful? The same goes for its paltry 13 dex and 14 con. I feel a werewolf should have at least 17 strength and 20 dex.

We're Werewolves always like this? Or did 5e nerf them? And do you agree with me on this?

Werewolves weren't always bipedal. In fact, that's a very recent thing. Originally werewolves turned into normal wolves. They were scary because they were wolves. The extra scare came from wolves who could open your door, understand human speech, and plan. But seriously, being wolves was scary enough.

[SharkForce]

wow... That's not very impressive.

Honestly I don't see how being a werewolf is a benefit to a warrior, considering most will already have strength above the 15 werewolves provide and at least close to 13.

I may homebrew a werewolf to be a bit closer to what I expected (i.e. Should be able to go toe to toe with the Vampire).

Edit: what about other editions? I remember the werewolf island in Baldur's Gate being extremely dangerous because of all the werewolves.

that's going from an average human statline (10s and 11s) to get those attributes? it's not 15, 15, 16... it's +4, +4, +6.

which sounds plenty beneficial for a warrior (or really, pretty much anyone; who can't use more dex and con?) to me.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Average strength is 10.
A guy that exercises regularly (or works somewhat strenuous manual labor) and keeps himself in shape is about 12.
A guy that goes to the gym and lifts regularly is about 13 or 14.
An amateur bodybuilder is about 15 or 16.
A competitive bodybuilder is about 17 or 18.
A world class bodybuilder would be a 19 or so.

A regular guy cursed to become a jacked up monster, gaining the strength of an amateur bodybuilder, sounds about right.

A little more like:
Average bloke = 10
A guy who does hard labor/lifting = 12
A body builder/athlete = 14
World class athlete = 16
Hardened warrior of song and legend= 18
Achilles/Beowulf = 20
Muscle God = 20+


But yeah. Lycanthropes need work.

[Gwendol]

Werewolves weren't always bipedal. In fact, that's a very recent thing. Originally werewolves turned into normal wolves. They were scary because they were wolves. The extra scare came from wolves who could open your door, understand human speech, and plan. But seriously, being wolves was scary enough.

Aren't lycanthropes still able to assume animal form though? The hybrid shape seems to be the popular one among illustrators of the MM...

[supergoji18]

Average strength is 10.
A guy that exercises regularly (or works somewhat strenuous manual labor) and keeps himself in shape is about 12.
A guy that goes to the gym and lifts regularly is about 13 or 14.
An amateur bodybuilder is about 15 or 16.
A competitive bodybuilder is about 17 or 18.
A world class bodybuilder would be a 19 or so.

A regular guy cursed to become a jacked up monster, gaining the strength of an amateur bodybuilder, sounds about right.

Except Bears are 19 strength, and I have never heard of a human body builder being able to wrestle a full grown grizzly bear.

Edit: also, I'm pretty sure an amateur body builder would not be able to overpower a reef shark.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, but how much does the bear bench press? ;-)

[supergoji18]

Yeah, but how much does the bear bench press? ;-)

Average grizzly bear weighs 1700 lbs. they can lift anywhere from 80% to 100% of their body weight.

World record for bench press: 1102 lbs.

The Bear could beat that without training.

[Fwiffo86]

Maybe it's just me, but Werewolves seem extremely weak compared to what I normally envision when I think of them. When I think of a Werewolf, I think of something like this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uuWSOEAIs90/ScfZL-AMkOI/AAAAAAAAAZY/gcVXD1qus2c/s1600/SH+concept+post+werewolf+Greys.png

Big, Muscular, and can easily rip your face off with its bare hands.

When I look at the stats of a werewolf in the Monster Manual, they most certainly don't match what I think of.

15 strength? That's less strength than a Dire Wolf! You're telling me that the supernatural bipedal and even more muscular version of the creature is somehow LESS powerful? The same goes for its paltry 13 dex and 14 con. I feel a werewolf should have at least 17 strength and 20 dex.

We're Werewolves always like this? Or did 5e nerf them? And do you agree with me on this?

I never envisioned Werewolves as powerfully built. Lean, fast, deadly sure. The difference between Arnold Schwarzenagger and Bruce Lee. Wolves aren't powerfully built creatures like say the bear. Incredibly high strength doesn't fit them in my opinion. Speed, cunning, and ferocity sure. But not strength.

[Gwendol]

Average grizzly bear weighs 1700 lbs. they can lift anywhere from 80% to 100% of their body weight.

World record for bench press: 1102 lbs.

The Bear could beat that without training.

Care to reference that? I have absolutely no trouble what so ever lifting 100% of my body weight. Be it bench press, dead lift, or squat.

[SharkForce]

Care to reference that? I have absolutely no trouble what so ever lifting 100% of my body weight. Be it bench press, dead lift, or squat.

your mass increases cubically, muscle strength is determined from the cross-sectional area which only expands quadratically (ie proportionate to the square of the dimensions).

or, in other words, if you were to double your size in every dimension, you would be able to lift 4 times as much, but would weigh 8 times as much.

(for the record, this also means that there isn't really anything particularly impressive about an ant being able to carry 50 times its body weight; that's fairly normal for creatures that size).

[supergoji18]

Care to reference that? I have absolutely no trouble what so ever lifting 100% of my body weight. Be it bench press, dead lift, or squat.

Got one fact wrong: 1700 is max size. They normally weight over 700, with a large female weighting 800 (males are larger though).

http://www.nwf.org/wildlife/wildlife-library/mammals/grizzly-bear.aspx

Bear weight lifting: http://www.onekind.org/be_inspired/top_10_lists/strongest/

And the record for bench pressing: http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/humble/news/meeker-sets-world-record-with-lbs-bench-press/article_83df1a0c-0e2e-50be-a789-f3999fbcacc3.html?mode=jqm

So basically, the maximum human strength capability just barely exceeds an average grizzley's.

[Joe the Rat]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uuWSOEAIs90/ScfZL-AMkOI/AAAAAAAAAZY/gcVXD1qus2c/s1600/SH+concept+post+werewolf+Greys.png

Well there's your problem. That's an awesome werewolf, not an average werewolf. Beef the stats for your big guy. Still, I think that build falls into the "mighty thews" range, so you're only off a few points strengthwise. Plus he's what, 5'8"? 5'9"? Getting significantly larger in transformation is a newer concept (and likely pre-CGI effects-driven), but even if you do go with American Werewolf over Lon Chaney, by stats you never leave Medium.

That immunity to non-silver/non-magic is what makes them particularly scary. Level 2's going 5-on-1 against a Wererat was rather dodgy (and about offed the offending rogue) until the casting half of the party started zapping. And that's a not-quite medium encounter by himself.

[Gwendol]

Got one fact wrong: 1700 is max size. They normally weight over 700, with a large female weighting 800 (males are larger though).

http://www.nwf.org/wildlife/wildlife-library/mammals/grizzly-bear.aspx

Bear weight lifting: http://www.onekind.org/be_inspired/top_10_lists/strongest/

And the record for bench pressing: http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/humble/news/meeker-sets-world-record-with-lbs-bench-press/article_83df1a0c-0e2e-50be-a789-f3999fbcacc3.html?mode=jqm

So basically, the maximum human strength capability just barely exceeds an average grizzley's.

Cool! Reading on the animals I now want to be a weregorilla... They make bears look pathetic.

[supergoji18]

Well there's your problem. That's an awesome werewolf, not an average werewolf. Beef the stats for your big guy. Still, I think that build falls into the "mighty thews" range, so you're only off a few points strengthwise. Plus he's what, 5'8"? 5'9"? Getting significantly larger in transformation is a newer concept (and likely pre-CGI effects-driven), but even if you do go with American Werewolf over Lon Chaney, by stats you never leave Medium.

That immunity to non-silver/non-magic is what makes them particularly scary. Level 2's going 5-on-1 against a Wererat was rather dodgy (and about offed the offending rogue) until the casting half of the party started zapping. And that's a not-quite medium encounter by himself.

Alright, maybe an average werewolf should be slightly less muscular (Skyrim level maybe?) but still stronger than what we get. But honestly, the dex and con are what concerns me. How can something that is supposed to be a super speedy engine of bloodshed only barely faster than the average human? How can something built specifically for hunting and survival only have a constitution that is above average for humans? It just seems strange to me.

And yeah, they can be scary at that point without anything to hit them properly with.


Cool! Reading on the animals I now want to be a weregorilla... They make bears look pathetic.
It would start a Planet of the Apes

[Gwendol]

Planet of the Were-apes!

[Orvir]

Brown bear is size large, which gives it double the carrying capacity of a medium creature with the same strength. (phb 176)

[Envyus]

15 strength? That's less strength than a Dire Wolf! You're telling me that the supernatural bipedal and even more muscular version of the creature is somehow LESS powerful? The same goes for its paltry 13 dex and 14 con. I feel a werewolf should have at least 17 strength and 20 dex.

http://dreadgazebo.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Werewolf_Cut.png

This is what a werewolf looks like in 5e. Pretty strong looking and it is stronger then a normal wolf. But this is not a Were Dire Wolf, it is not more muscular version of a Dire Wolf. Dire Wolves are horse sized wolves so it would make sense they are stronger then the human sized werewolf.

[Lord Raziere]

Werewolves weren't always bipedal. In fact, that's a very recent thing. Originally werewolves turned into normal wolves. They were scary because they were wolves. The extra scare came from wolves who could open your door, understand human speech, and plan. But seriously, being wolves was scary enough.

Its a recent thing for a reason. some things just aren't that scary anymore and need some updating.

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think that the reason that a lot of people are under the impression that werewolves bulk up hugely in size and muscle is probably due to World of Darkness Garou rather than traditional or D&D werewolves.

Many pictures of werewolves date back to when WoD was all the rage, or were inspired by those depictions of the Garou. Its even been passed on in other media (Skyrim werewolves look very close to Garou for example.)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

well. part of the problem is that 5e doesn't deal too well with sheer power differences like that.

The recent thread about halfling strength is a case in point. You think it's weird that a werewolf is only 15str compared to a human, try comparing it to a 60 pound halfling that still has more STR than it...!

When it comes down to it, mechanically, even dragons arn't that much STR-onger than adventurers.

What I would do is grant any creature with a reason for extraordinary strength advantage on any relevant check (like trying to hold a door against a werewolf, or trying to grab a weapon from a giant). It enhances versimilitude without necessitating a huge table of revised STR scores.

[Talyn]

Its a recent thing for a reason. some things just aren't that scary anymore and need some updating.

The only reason wolves aren't scary any more is guns (and helicopters). An average-sized wolf is significantly more dangerous to a man on the ground with a sword or spear than that man is to the wolf.

Wolves are dangerous creatures. There is a reason that our word for them comes from the Germanic wulf or vulf, which means "demon/implacable foe." If they are not scary now, it's because they were SO scary that two hundred years ago our ancestors finally got the upper hand on them and proceeded to exterminate them with extreme prejudice.

Frankly, a lot of common animals in the 5e MM need to be buffed a bit, but the wolf in particular ought to be more fearsome than they currently are.

[dancrilis]

I don't think werewolves seem weak at all - these are creatures were a single one can decimate a village in a night, assuming rarity of magic items and lack of silvered weapons.
Add to that basic cunning and shapechanging and you have a creature that can likely pick apart a level 3 party with relative ease (or simply avoid them).



Frankly, a lot of common animals in the 5e MM need to be buffed a bit, but the wolf in particular ought to be more fearsome than they currently are.

Really? They are stronger than the average person, faster than a person, tougher than the average person, harder to hit than the average person, have decent stealth and perception, fights very well in packs and can knock people prone with relative ease.
While wolves in general are dangerous animals - I think the rules sum that up fairly well.