What's a DM to do? AC issues.

[Naez]

Basically I have a character in my campaign who has a ridiculously high AC. And I can't find a way to threaten him without outright killing the rest of the party.

The issue is the fact he is a Battle Dancer, with Bracers of Armor and Amulet of Natural Armor, rolled an 18 Cha and has the highest Cloak of Charisma he can afford, and he had 16 Dex to begin with and took a Dex boosting race. He has also multiclassed paladin 2 levels so that Cha also goes to all his saves.

They have an artificer in the party so I really can't limit what items they can make so long as they have the gold and exp to do it. Even if I give them a different item the artificer just eats it and turns it into what they want.

EDIT #1: Forgot Ring of Protection as well.

EDIT #2: Regarding his combat effectiveness. He deals a decent amount of damage not really outshining anyone but he grapples, trips, and then kidney punches his opponents to death. He's optimized grappling so much he won a wrestling match with a dragon 2 size categories larger than himself. Making him able to completely lock down any single opponent since they can't deal any damage back to him.

[Deadline]

Hit him with touch attacks, spells that don't require an attack roll and still have some effect on a successful save, or no-save-just-suck spells. Bog him down with minions (if he doesn't tank them then they'll overwhelm the rest of the party), set up encounters where there are multiple objectives (not just burning down the enemy's hitpoints).

[Zaq]

Is he actually threatening to the monsters? You might not be able to hit him very easily, but unless he's also outclassing all his allies in terms of damage, there's no reason for the monsters to waste their time attacking him instead of his friends. Don't have them metagame and ignore him outright—if he's up in someone's grill, they'll probably take at least a swing or two at him before they realize that he's a waste of time—but if he's not right in melee range of someone, they can very reasonably choose to focus their attacks on the PCs who are causing more damage than Mr. Turtle here.

Also, while Divine Grace does make for some good saves, he's not totally immune to save-based things, and many save-based things are AoE, so you can try to get past his defenses and his allies' defenses at the same time.

Now, if he's both really hard to hit AND totally outshining the rest of the party in terms of damage, that's a different problem, and you'll need some combination of asking him to tone it down and helping the rest of the party to beef things up. But the way you've described it, it sounds like he's focusing a lot on his defenses without a lot of focus on his offensive capabilities. Without offensive capabilities, enemies don't have a reason to waste time trying to get past his formidable defenses, so they shouldn't bother.

[ComaVision]

You didn't say level but I'm thinking that's something like 24 AC? It really shouldn't be an issue. Particularly if he doesn't do much damage, have enemies focus his friends instead. The natural scaling of encounters will get rid of the advantage in time, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[jjcrpntr]

I had a similar problem. I had a PC playing a homebrewed knight class in my pathfinder game. I thought the class would be fun (and in all honesty it really was) but at the low levels the players were at he was damn near unkillable. Level 5 I think he had a 28 AC 32 against giants.

I ended up killing the PC when they walked into a grove of Mandragora's, he ended up getting grappled, surrounded and beaten to death very, very slowly (seriously like 2-3 dmg at a time it was hilarious). I also think it was something where he was poisoned or something. Poor bastard had one painful slow death, man was it funny.

[Flickerdart]

The issue is the fact he is a Battle Dancer, with Bracers of Armor and Amulet of Natural Armor, rolled an 18 Cha and has the highest Cloak of Charisma he can afford, and he had 16 Dex to begin with and took a Dex boosting race.
How high is his AC? Because it sounds like magic armor would be cheaper and more effective than what he's doing.

[Doctor Awkward]

Is he actually a threat? Or is he just hard to hit. If he isn't dishing out the pain, just ignore him.
Or go after him with effects that don't allow a save. Solid Fog is one of my favorites.
Web is another good one too, the save on that is meaningless.

[Nibbens]

Hit him with touch attacks, spells that don't require an attack roll and still have some effect on a successful save, or no-save-just-suck spells. Bog him down with minions (if he doesn't tank them then they'll overwhelm the rest of the party), set up encounters where there are multiple objectives (not just burning down the enemy's hitpoints).

I second all of these ideas as well! Remember environment as well - high ground, traps, narrow passageways, cliffs into water/lava/acid/whatever to hinder him. Don't forget about flanking bonuses. and while the PCs can min/max their stats, you can do the same to the monsters every now and again.


Is he actually threatening to the monsters? You might not be able to hit him very easily, but unless he's also outclassing all his allies in terms of damage, there's no reason for the monsters to waste their time attacking him instead of his friends. Don't have them metagame and ignore him outright—if he's up in someone's grill, they'll probably take at least a swing or two at him before they realize that he's a waste of time—but if he's not right in melee range of someone, they can very reasonably choose to focus their attacks on the PCs who are causing more damage than Mr. Turtle here.

Also, while Divine Grace does make for some good saves, he's not totally immune to save-based things, and many save-based things are AoE, so you can try to get past his defenses and his allies' defenses at the same time.

This is also truth!

[Lightlawbliss]

Optimizing AC that much requires not spending resources on other areas. Don't be afraid of sending them against his weaknesses. Also don't be scared to make situations where, without altering the battlefield, only one person can be in front.

Also, enemies tend to care more about the guy making them worse at fighting or the guy with the ICBM for a sword then about the bunker with a Glock.

[daremetoidareyo]

Force missile mage with metamagic reducer, felldrain and chainspell should put the fear into him




level

class

feats

abilities





1
evoker

fell drain2, precocious apprentice: shatter, entangling spell2:flaw metamagic school focus:flaw

Domain Granted power (CC, p 53): Lose a bonus feat, gain a domain granted power: meditation: Each day, you can prepare one spell as though it had the Empower Spell feat applied to it. However, this spell is at its normal level, not at two levels higher (as with the regular metamagic feat). You need not know the Empower Spell feat to use this ability. Wizard of Sun and Moon (DS, p 14): Lose familiar. When you prepare spells, you can store two spells in one slot by designated one 'sun' and the other 'moon'. Moon spells can be used underground or at night. Sun spells can only be used during the day and above ground. Focused Specialist (CM, p 34): Lose access to another school and one spell per day, gain 2 extra spells from specialist class.





2
evoker











3
evoker

maximize spell3?energize spell?








4
evoker











5
evoker

repeat spell3








6
evoker

combat casting








7
force missile mage




Bonus Missile: At 1st level, a force missile mage gains increased mastery over his spell of choice. Every time he casts magic missile he creates an addition missile, even if this extra missile exceeds the normal maximum of five missiles that the spell normally allows. Thus, a 1st-levelforce missile mage/6th-level wizard creates five magic missiles, while a 1st-level force missile mage/8th- level wizard produces six missiles. At 5th level, the force missile mage benefits from an additional bonus missile. This means that a high-level force missile mage can create up to seven missiles with a single casting of magic missile. Still Missile (Ex): All of the force missile mage's magic missile spells lack a somatic component. He casts magic missile as if using the Still Spell feat but without an increase in spell level.





8
force missile mage




Energy Missile (Ex): A force missile mage becomes intimately attuned to the energies that compose the spell magic missile and may alter them in significant ways. Starting at 2nd level, a force missile mage may add either the acid, cold, electricity, or fire descriptor to any magic missile he casts. The type of energy added to the spell is chosen at the time of casting, and you can choose a different type of energy each time you cast magic missile. This altered descriptor affects all missiles created by a single casting of magic missile. Although still a force spell, any magic missile altered in this way deals additional damage against vulnerable creatures and less damage against creatures with related resistances and immunities.
Swift Shield (Sp): A force missile mage realizes the need to defend himself against the magic missiles of other spell casters. A 2nd-level force missle mage can cast Shield once per day as an immediate action. (An immediate action is like a free action, but only once can be made per round.) This spell is cast in addition to the force missile mage's usual number of spells per day and at the force missile mage's highest caster level.





9
force missile mage

twin spell 4

Overpowering Missle: At 3rd level, the force missile mage's Magic Missile spells become especially potent, breaking through spell resistance more readily than normal. He gains a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome a creature's spell resistance with the spell Magic Missile. This benefit only applies to Magic Missile spells he casts. In addition, a force missile mage's Magic Missiles might penetrate Shield spells and Brooches of Shielding. Against such protections, the force missile mage makes a caster level check with a DC equal to the caster level, in the case of Shield, or DC 20, in the case of a brooch.





10
force missile mage




Reflective Shield (Sp): At 4th level, a force missile mage can reflect the spell Magic Missile. For the purposes of being affected by Magic Missile, a force missile mage is constantly treated as being under the effect of the spell Spell Turning, thus reflecting offensive Magic missiles back at the caster. If that caster is protected by a Shield spell or a Brooches of Shielding, these reflected Magic Missiles are negated as normal. Missiles reflected back against a caster who also has Spell Turning in effect require the force misslie mage to roll on the Spell Turning mishap chart.





11
force missile mage




+1 missile





12
evoker

arcane thesis

1: 7 missiles/ 2: 7 felldrain missiles/ 3: 7 fell drain entangling missiles 4: 6 repeatfelldrain missiles/ 5: 4 repeat felldrain entangling missiles/ 6: 3 felldrain repeating maximized empowered missiles

[Nibbens]

EDIT #2: Regarding his combat effectiveness. He deals a decent amount of damage not really outshining anyone but he grapples, trips, and then kidney punches his opponents to death. He's optimized grappling so much he won a wrestling match with a dragon 2 size categories larger than himself. Making him able to completely lock down any single opponent since they can't deal any damage back to him.

When grappled he loses his dex bonus to AC. One enemy with rogue levels and sneak damage will make him cringe as he's battling his dragon.

Also, look into gang grappling rules - have a bunch of cannon fodder jump on his back attempting to help in the struggle will turn the odds in your favor.

[Karl Aegis]

So this guy is jumping 60 feet into the air without a running start, grabbing a moving dragon, and then establishing a hold when he automatically loses the check. I'm calling shenanigans.

[lsfreak]

While you absolutely don't want to be pulling this every time, or even regularly, there are methods of lowering AC and saves. Dark Companion Hexblade/Focalor Binder/Paladin of Tyranny (some or all) can make a nasty save-and-AC reducing build, and it can be built as a dedicated demoralizer. That's -6 to saves, -2 to AC, and -6 to attack rolls, no saves necessary, plus another -2 attacks/saves from hexblade curse, plus demoralization (possibly escalated to cowering). Other status effects like entangling (-4 Dex, via nets, web) or fatigue/exhaustion (-2/-6 Dex, via ray of exhaustion, waves of exhaustion). A chained dispel magic can take out many of his magic items for a few rounds (though be aware of bogging down the game, looking up the CL for every item). If you've got a bunch of mooks, have them trip, flank, and Aid Another. You said he grapples, that means he'd just as helpless from other enemies as other enemies are to his teammates - no Dex to AC and automatic sneak attack damage on him whenever he's grappling.

EDIT: Oh, and concerning the dragon situation: "You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. "

[Shining Wrath]

There's a laundry list of attacks that bypass AC.

Area of Affect
Ranged Touch Attack spells
The Emerald Razor line of Diamond Mind maneuvers from Tome of Battle
Various Save or [Suck, Lose, Die] attacks which are single-target but require no to-hit roll at all (e.g., Hold Person)

[Naez]

So this guy is jumping 60 feet into the air without a running start, grabbing a moving dragon, and then establishing a hold when he automatically loses the check. I'm calling shenanigans.

The dragon was brought down to ground level by the wizard and he grappled it as normal. Also I didn't know the rule about automatically losing the check to anything 2 sizes larger than you.

[Glorius Nippon]

He's optimized grappling so much he won a wrestling match with a dragon 2 size categories larger than himself.

That sounds like an amazing character concept.

Anyway, any of the above gives good answers for how to counter, but something that needs to be brought up: do not throw in all this hard counter stuff out of no where, or too much of it. Don't. Period. It will feel to him as if your targeting him specifically, which is never a good feeling for a player. Also keep in mind that if he wants to be the tank and has built himself to be the tank, it makes sense that he would have good ac. Try to vary up the encounters perhaps, throw in something other than combat, ect. If it's getting to the point of him litteraly never getting hit, then use the above, or try talking to him/her. D&D(or RPG in general) are most fun when the whole table is having fun together afterall.

[Doctor Awkward]

EDIT #2: Regarding his combat effectiveness. He deals a decent amount of damage not really outshining anyone but he grapples, trips, and then kidney punches his opponents to death. He's optimized grappling so much he won a wrestling match with a dragon 2 size categories larger than himself. Making him able to completely lock down any single opponent since they can't deal any damage back to him.

Grappling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple)

See step 3:
"Attempt a hold
...
If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are."


Here's a step by step guide for dealing with grapple:

1. Cast Freedom of Movement. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) If your NPC is not a spellcaster, a Ring of Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement), or the Freedom armor property (magic item compendium) will accomplish the same thing. Pisonics has a similar power.

2. Anything that teleports. Ring of Blinking, Dimension Door (level 4), Anklet of Translocation, the feat Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt), Abrupt Jaunt variant conjuror (level 1), Dimension Hop (level 2), Dimension Step (level 3), Dimension Jumper (level 5)...
Again, psionics has similar powers.


And here's another step-by-step guide for dealing with an Artificer:

1. Time. Artificers require time to do anything. For more expensive items this time is measure in weeks. Yes a dedicated wright in an enveloping pit will allow him to carry his workshop with him, but it will do nothing to speed up that process. and even with a wright, the artificer cannot work on more than one item at a time. So all that time spent churning out items for the party is time not spent creating resources for himself (scrolls, wands, or staves).
Artificer: "Good news, Unus the Untouchable, your new charisma cloak will be ready by the end of next week."
DM: "That is good news. The dragon's mate will have certainly arrived and razed the town to the ground by then. Oh by the way, roll initiative."


Also keep in mind that if he wants to be the tank and has built himself to be the tank, it makes sense that he would have good ac.

No. No, it doesn't. At all.
The ability to draw the attacks of your enemies is vaguely crucial to the concept of a tank. Otherwise, any enemy with an intelligence higher than 2 is going to ignore a target it can't hit in favor of one that it can.

If you want to be the tank in table-top D&D, you need make yourself the most appealing target on the field. This is done by punishing enemies for going after anyone but you and/or making certain you are easier to hit than everyone else.

Specifically targeting his weakness is not unfair to him or to anyone. It's what the bad guy does. It's one of the things that makes him the bad guy.

[Troacctid]

You're a smart bad guy. An unarmed and unarmored halfling strolls right up into your full attack range. For all you know, they're a squishy rogue who got cocky. Of course you're going to attack them first. They look like an easy target. By the time you realize the truth, the real easy targets have moved behind cover, and what's worse, you've wasted a round or two, which, in 3.5, often means that you are already dead. All the Battle Dancer needs is to draw focus long enough for his allies to end the fight. (And if you're mindless or have an especially low Int score, you might not even think to switch targets at all.)

As a DM, you can counter this tactic fairly easily by using enemies with ranged (possibly AoE) attacks, protected by advantageous terrain, a line of melee brutes, or some other such defensive tactic. The ranged attackers can fire directly at the back line and ignore the Battle Dancer. Remember, you don't need to TPK your players for them to lose an encounter. If everyone is dead except for the tank, they've failed.

Of course, every once in a while, it is okay to have an encounter that involves some giant mindless monster claw-claw-biting whatever living thing is in closest proximity, and your tanky player will easily win that encounter, and that's expected and totally fine. It rewards them for the investments they made when building their character. You'll just need to vary your tactics beyond that, or it will get boring. And when it does happen, don't draw it out too much when the outcome is obvious, or your players may feel like their time is being wasted.

[bloodystone2]

Few different ways that I would take care of it

Touch attacks. Throw touch attacks at him.

Splash damage. Have a kobold or goblin throw a flask of fire at him and watch it burn.

Seperate him. Obviously this won't work everytime but having the party seperated into small groups makes for some interesting events.

[LTwerewolf]

Has anyone mentioned this little tidbit?
You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. .

Not only that, why not bust out waves of exhaustion on him? No save. Move half speed and -6 to str and dex.

[endur]

You are the game master, you are not the opponent.

It is perfectly ok if one of the players at your table is unhurtable by an encounter or several encounters.

Even if you don't think your monsters are effective against him, he obviously is afraid of your monsters, otherwise he wouldn't put that much effort into his ac and saving throws.

So you are doing your job in making him beware of your monsters.

Don't worry, Be happy!

How is this different from having undead encounters when one or more of your players is a cleric that can turn the undead? Its not different.

Now, what I would be concerned about as a GM, is making sure that one player does not monopolize the spotlight. Make sure that other characters besides the unkillable one get their time in the spotlight.

Also, to the extent that his high AC/defenses is a team effort by the battle dancer, the artificier, the other casters, that is also a good thing. It shows teamwork , not one player monopolizing the spotlight. I would be more concerned if your one player was doing it all on his own.

[Lerondiel]

You are the game master, you are not the opponent.

It is perfectly ok if one of the players at your table is unhurtable by an encounter or several encounters.

Even if you don't think your monsters are effective against him, he obviously is afraid of your monsters, otherwise he wouldn't put that much effort into his ac and saving throws.

So you are doing your job in making him beware of your monsters.

Don't worry, Be happy!

How is this different from having undead encounters when one or more of your players is a cleric that can turn the undead? Its not different.

Now, what I would be concerned about as a GM, is making sure that one player does not monopolize the spotlight. Make sure that other characters besides the unkillable one get their time in the spotlight.

Also, to the extent that his high AC/defenses is a team effort by the battle dancer, the artificier, the other casters, that is also a good thing. It shows teamwork , not one player monopolizing the spotlight. I would be more concerned if your one player was doing it all on his own.


Well said. There's a host of electric/acidic/fiery/freezing opponents you dont want to be grappling, but manipulating a high percentage of encounters in an attempt to perfectly balance power isnt necessary and has its own set of problems.

Keep pitching a mixed campaign at your players, where the objective regularly needs the unique abilities of a particular character eg. diplomacy/stealth/turning/dispelling/etc. Remember their character backgrounds/goals and tie storylines to them.

[Eldariel]

Most monster special abilities not named Improved Grab ignore AC. Drowned can drown him, incorporeals can drain him (tho I would wager his Touch AC is high enough to give many a pause) and anyone with spell-likes god forbid actual spellcasting chews right through it, either through powering through it (Quicken True Strike or just cast it, any [ranged] touch spell is going to him almost certainly) or by just casting spells attacking his saves instead (Color Spray, Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Slow, Pyrotechnics, etc. - there are plenty of low-level spells that are brutal on failed saves, and some stuff like Web or X Wall can really shut down people down no save). As such, business as usual, just present a diverse range of mundane and magical opponents, include alchemical items, scrolls and potions for the opposition as well and profit. I don't see any reason he'd particularly present a problem in terms of making bogstandard encounters too safe. Standard enemy compositions and tactics should work just fine against him.

[SinsI]

Let's see.
Battle Dancer AC bonus, assuming +6 Charisma item (36,000 gold): +7 AC
Battle Dancer levels: +1 dodge per every 5 class levels, since multiclass maximum +3
Dex: +3AC, race +1AC
Bracers of Armor: up to +8 AC, for up to 64,000 gold
Amulet of natural armor: up to +5 enchancement to natural armor bones, for up to 50,000 gold
Ring of Protection: up to +5 deflection, for up to 50,000 gold

Total:
+7+3+4 +8+5+5 = +32 AC for 200,000 gold
That's adequate (http://aaronwiki.us/index.php?title=Armor_Class_Guide) AC for level 16 tank fighter, and his requires budget for level 18.

Nothing stellar, shouldn't pose any real threat. Normal monsters and encounters should work just fine.