7th lvl Dragonborn Ranger vs a Dragon

[Taejang]

I'm gearing up to play Hoard of the Dragon Queen. I am not the DM, please no spoilers! I have come to the fairly logical conclusion that during the campaign, I will likely fight a dragon. As the campaign is for levels 1-8, and the dragon is too powerful to fight early on, I figure the fight won't take place until near the end, possibly as a final confrontation.

For roleplaying reasons, I'm a dragonborn ranger (green dragon descent, poison resistance and breath attack). 16 dexterity and wisdom (with 4 charisma! :smalleek:) I'm thinking about how to optimize this character as much as possible to fight a dragon of unknown type at level 7. I will have uncertain access to magical items, though I will be able to buy some low-level scrolls and potions. I am not multiclassing this character.

With 16 dexterity but only average strength, he is not melee capable. Assuming the party contains two front line warriors and one squishy full-caster, what class features, spells, and non-magical gear will best maximize my dragon-killing potential?

[burninatortrog]

With 16 dexterity but only average strength, he is not melee capable.

This is not strictly true, if he has a finesse weapon he can enter melee combat without worrying about Strength.

[Taejang]

This is not strictly true, if he has a finesse weapon he can enter melee combat without worrying about Strength.
You are correct, but his AC won't be as good as the front liners we already have until he amasses enough money for expensive armor (and he lacks the strength and proficiencies to wear heavy armor), and since we do have two front liners already, I sort of assumed my role in the party was distance, with the possible beast companion for a third front line character.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

You are correct, but his AC won't be as good as the front liners we already have until he amasses enough money for expensive armor (and he lacks the strength and proficiencies to wear heavy armor), and since we do have two front liners already, I sort of assumed my role in the party was distance, with the possible beast companion for a third front line character.

Is your character set in stone as to the Archetype? Beastmaster is...complicated. Most would say it's the weakest archetype, but it's actually just Tactically Stressful. Hunter would make you better overall, but BM opens up a lot of options if you're clever enough to see them. If you go Hunter, focus Archery (although having a rapier as backup shouldn't be an issue). If your DM is nice/lenient/WEAK:smallwink:/savvy, see if he'll let you pick a higher CR companion later on (I believe you're normally stuck with 1/4, which suuuucks), or barring that, if he'll let you have an Elven Longsword (regular Longsword, just add Finesse).

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

You are correct, but his AC won't be as good as the front liners we already have until he amasses enough money for expensive armor

Assuming you're gaining cash at the same rate, you'll all hit 16 AC early, then if the heavy armor wearer get splint they'll have a whole 1 AC over you. You'll get your best armor earlier than they do, since half plate is half the price of full plate. And the difference will still be only 1 AC.

But if your party needs ranged support, that's fine too. I'm just saying that heavy armor doesn't give a character an important AC advantage. It's main use is allowing a character to dump DEX.

[HoarsHalberd]

You are correct, but his AC won't be as good as the front liners we already have until he amasses enough money for expensive armor (and he lacks the strength and proficiencies to wear heavy armor), and since we do have two front liners already, I sort of assumed my role in the party was distance, with the possible beast companion for a third front line character.

Well you're on 14-15 AC anyway, but you're right to focus on range. However I would really recommend not going beast, it's not that powerful compared to hunter due to having to use your attack action to make the beast attack. As for defeating the dragon... Try thinking outside the box with a party of four, don't expect to be able to take it on directly.

[Friv]

I'm not going to lie; being a Dragonborn ranger with average strength is already pretty much unoptimized. Your two stat boosts don't really feed into any of your ranger traits, and your breath weapon and damage resistance are cool, but will be pretty random as to how well they work against any given dragon.

With that in mind!

If you're going for Dexterity and want to be a skilled dragon-fighter, I would go the classic route and be an archer. Take the following:

* Archery at Level 2
* Hunter (Colossus Slayer) at Level 3 - as a beastmaster, you're just giving the dragon an extra target for breath weapons.
* Probably just +2 Dexterity at Level 4. If you reach level 8, pick up Sharpshooter; you need a decent attack bonus and multiple attacks before it becomes worth it against armored targets like dragons.

For spells, I would keep the following around:
* Cordon of Arrows - a good way to hurt a dragon that is swooping in, and you can prepare it before the fight starts if you know the dragon is coming.
* Ensnaring Strike - This is honestly not very likely to succeed, but it only uses your bonus action so try for it! There's a chance you'll be able to tie the dragon down for a turn or two, at low cost.
* Hunter's Mark - Extremely valuable against lone, powerful opponents. Bonus damage on every hit for the rest of the fight, and it uses a bonus action to activate.

Your Favored Enemies and Natural Explorers can be basically anything; stick with whatever seems to appear a lot in the game. You can take Dragon, but you don't technically need to. It's useful for hunting, but you already speak dragon-language and it doesn't provide combat advantages.

[Taejang]

Is your character set in stone as to the Archetype? Not at all set. Just trying to fill whatever roll for the party that I can in the best possible way. So BM or Hunter are both possible. Looking at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399146-What-am-I-missing-about-rangers), you can see some folks arguing for BM. (If you disagree with their analysis, take it over there, not here.)

There is a strong possibility that my DM will allow a beast companion to attack independently, i.e. without my using an action.


Assuming you're gaining cash at the same rate, you'll all hit 16 AC early, then if the heavy armor wearer get splint they'll have a whole 1 AC over you. You'll get your best armor earlier than they do, since half plate is half the price of full plate. And the difference will still be only 1 AC. Good to know, hadn't considered that. And I know a front ranger is possible, I just figure there isn't a reason to try and compete with them when I can do ranged instead. :smallwink:


As for defeating the dragon... Try thinking outside the box with a party of four, don't expect to be able to take it on directly. I DMed a previous campaign that will remain nameless for spoiler reasons. The group of four, at level four, managed to take down a young dragon supported by several cultists. I realize that is not typical, and they had some very lucky breaks (as the DM I was sure they'd all wind up dead). Having been the DM then, and being aware of the tricky things they could have done but didn't, you can bet I'll be thinking outside the box. That said, our group is combat oriented... I fully expect to end up fighting a dragon. Just hopefully not head on.


I'm not going to lie; being a Dragonborn ranger with average strength is already pretty much unoptimized.
Definitely. Isn't it fun? :smallbiggrin:


* Probably just +2 Dexterity at Level 4. If you reach level 8, pick up Sharpshooter; you need a decent attack bonus and multiple attacks before it becomes worth it against armored targets like dragons.
Not what I expected; I figured the Sharpshooter would be a lvl 4 choice. But I suppose the dragon isn't likely to have cover, and the -5 to hit option isn't a good idea with a dragon's AC. Of course, I'll also have to fight other things before the dragon, which could make Sharpshooter valuable, but I am optimizing for the dragon itself, not the pewees along the way.

[Easy_Lee]

As far as I'm concerned, there's only one good way to play a BM Ranger, and it's in my sig. Your size precludes you from going with that option.

I agree with the others. Choose the hunter archetype, focus archery, and pick up Dex at 4 and sharpshooter if you get to 8. Your PC is not optimal, but archery is good enough that you should be fine. Focus Stealth as one of your skills so you can usually get the first hit. Be creative in your use of terrain so that you can stay out of enemy reach. Those are my suggestions.

[Friv]

Definitely. Isn't it fun? :smallbiggrin:

*grin* Always up for a challenge!


Not what I expected; I figured the Sharpshooter would be a lvl 4 choice. But I suppose the dragon isn't likely to have cover, and the -5 to hit option isn't a good idea with a dragon's AC. Of course, I'll also have to fight other things before the dragon, which could make Sharpshooter valuable, but I am optimizing for the dragon itself, not the pewees along the way.

Yeah, the math on this is not intuitive. So. Assuming you're starting the game with Dexterity 15 (standard array), at Level 7 with a Dex boost your attack bonus is +8 (+3 Dex, +3 Proficiency, +2 Archery), and against an injured dragon you do 2d8+3 damage.

Dragons generally have an AC of 18-19. Let's assume a slightly younger dragon and go with 18. At this point, you hit 55% of the time, for an average of 12 damage. That's a total average of 6.6 damage per attack.

Using a Sharpshooter instead, your attack bonus drops to +7, for 2d8+2 damage. You take a -5 penalty for +10 damage, and now you've got a +2 to hit for 2d8+12 damage. You only hit 25% of the time, for an average of 21 damage. That's a total average of 5.25 damage per attack.

As you deal more base damage, the numbers start to tilt towards Sharpshooter; enemies with higher ACs tilt it back towards Dexterity and lower ACs tilt it further towards Sharpshooter. If you start with a Dexterity of 16-17, you end up doing 6.6 damage on average with Sharpshooter, and 7.1 with Dex 18-19.

Now, there are other advantages to each: Sharpshooter gives you range, cover ignoring, and against weaker creatures makes you more likely to straight-up kill them. None of those advantages help against dragons, though. Dexterity gives you better Initiative, Dexterity saves, and Dexterity skills, so you're also 5% more likely to be able to (a) sneak up on a dragon, (b) act before the dragon, and (c) dodge the dragon's attacks and breath weapons.

[Taejang]

As far as I'm concerned, there's only one good way to play a BM Ranger, and it's in my sig. Your size precludes you from going with that option. A dual-lance wielding Frodo Baggins riding a magical breastplate-wearing, talking panther named Grumpy Cat? Yes please! Need some mithrail to make lighter armor...


...STUFF...
Interesting. And probably what I'll do. Thanks!

[Tenmujiin]

I just poped into the thread to say this, as a DM I would NEVER allow a BM ranger to have his beast attack independantly, as much as I dispise the way game mechanics turn your beast into a lazy excuse for a living creature (it took me about 5 miniutes to think of how to say that without swearing, the result is...tame to say the least).

The thing with BM is that it is balanced from a power standpoint since the beast's attack is better than your attack (especially if your dm allows them to multiattack) and you can use your extra attack to drop your own damage too after lv5. Allowing a BM ranger to get an extra attack at lv3 (in addition to the attack at lv5) that is stronger than the attacks other players have at lv5 is...not balanced.

Somewhat more on topic, I basically second what everyone else is saying, hunter is the better subclass for you, a dex bump at 4 and again at 8 is better against dragons, don't bother taking favored enemy against dragons, the advantages aren't that big a deal for them (its not hard to track a giant lizard and you already speak draconic) so I'd suggest taking two humanoids you expect to see often.

Also, don't discribe the elven longsword as a longsword with finesse, that sounds like you're gaining something. Discribe it as a slashing damage rapier or a scimatar that trades the light property for 1 extra damage (on average)

[Giant2005]

Go Beastmaster, take a Giant Poisonous Snake or Flying snake as your companion, milk that beast for all its worth and dish out poison to your party (And hope the Dragon you are facing is not of the green variety).
You guys should be able to down it in a round or two.

[Taejang]

Go Beastmaster, take a Giant Poisonous Snake or Flying snake as your companion, milk that beast for all its worth and dish out poison to your party (And hope the Dragon you are facing is not of the green variety).
You guys should be able to down it in a round or two.
This is an interesting idea I'd not considered. I'll have to read the DMG entries on poison when I get home tonight.