When you think of Obi-Wan Kenobi...

[Yora]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/swgdm/fr/images/5/5b/Sith5-1-.jpg http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111115052818/starwars/images/4/4e/ObiWanHS-SWE.jpg

Which one is his default face?

I've been watching Star Wars many times since 1995, and the old ones many times more often than the new ones. But a while ago I realized that Episode 3 has become my default Obi-Wan Kenobi. He is just so much cooler in every way than the one from Episode 4.

[Psyren]

Actually he's one of the few characters I liked the look of in both the prequels and regular. They did a good job with Ewan's look to make him closer to Alec, at least by the time RotS rolled around, which is when it counted.

Where the prequels failed (among many other places of course) was his attitude. By Episode 3 he should have been well established as the counterbalancing force of reason to Anakin's increasingly rash/erratic impulses. After all, Anakin was the one whose frustration with the Jedi was reaching a tipping point. Yet Obi-Wan was the one acting far more frustrated and impulsive in Episode 3, including leaping out a window chasing down Padme's attempted assassin instead of taking the much more sensible approach of getting a speeder. It's like he and Anakin switched notecards. I can never fathom why they wrote him like that at that point in the story.

Of course, they ruined Yoda too, so I shouldn't be surprised.

[huttj509]

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111184078/4383645-9835943841-ObiWa.jpg

I liked the clone wars a LOT more than I thought I would, and felt it gave some much needed character development leading from ep. 2 to ep. 3.

Though really, when I think of Obi, I see ep. 4 Obi Wan first.

[Yora]

Actually he's one of the few characters I liked the look of in both the prequels and regular. They did a good job with Ewan's look to make him closer to Alec, at least by the time RotS rolled around, which is when it counted.

Where the prequels failed (among many other places of course) was his attitude. By Episode 3 he should have been well established as the counterbalancing force of reason to Anakin's increasingly rash/erratic impulses. After all, Anakin was the one whose frustration with the Jedi was reaching a tipping point. Yet Obi-Wan was the one acting far more frustrated and impulsive in Episode 3, including leaping out a window chasing down Padme's attempted assassin instead of taking the much more sensible approach of getting a speeder. It's like he and Anakin switched notecards. I can never fathom why they wrote him like that at that point in the story.

Of course, they ruined Yoda too, so I shouldn't be surprised.

I think we all can agree that all movies except The Empire Strikes Back are in fact bad movies. :smallamused: But Episode 3 still gets to be second place when you rank them by quality.

[Hyena]

While Ewan Mcgregor is the only actor who actually managed to act in the prequels, his character is absolutely tainted by being in such bad movies. Thus, when I think of Obi-Wan, I remember the wise old sage from the original trilogy.

Also, no. We can't agree that SITH was the second best movie. It was the best out of prequels, maybe, but in my opinion comparing prequels to each other is like comparing new vomit and old. Sure, one of them might smell better, but it's still vomit.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually he's one of the few characters I liked the look of in both the prequels and regular. They did a good job with Ewan's look to make him closer to Alec, at least by the time RotS rolled around, which is when it counted.

Where the prequels failed (among many other places of course) was his attitude. By Episode 3 he should have been well established as the counterbalancing force of reason to Anakin's increasingly rash/erratic impulses. After all, Anakin was the one whose frustration with the Jedi was reaching a tipping point. Yet Obi-Wan was the one acting far more frustrated and impulsive in Episode 3, including leaping out a window chasing down Padme's attempted assassin instead of taking the much more sensible approach of getting a speeder. It's like he and Anakin switched notecards. I can never fathom why they wrote him like that at that point in the story.

Of course, they ruined Yoda too, so I shouldn't be surprised.
I can understand that the prequels all kinda meld together in a melange of bodily excretions, but it's worth noting that your example of Obi-Wan acting impulsively comes from Attack of the Clones, not Revenge of the Sith.

[LibraryOgre]

Alec Guinness, without question.

[Tengu_temp]

Old Obi-Wan will always be my default Obi-Wan. Revenge of the Sith might be the best from the prequels, but that still means it's almost as good as Return of the Jedi, which is the worst from the original trilogy.

[Lurkmoar]

Alec Guinness, without question.

Same here. He added a lot of class to Star Wars.

[Yora]

Somehow I never was a fan of Old Obi-Wan. Didn't feel strongly about him in the first movie and his part in the rest of the story felt actually rather unlikeable to me.

[Zyzzyva]

Alec Guiness, although McGregor did do a good job.

[Lord Haart]

http://oi59.tinypic.com/9aadk5.jpg

[LibraryOgre]

Same here. He added a lot of class to Star Wars.

Genuine Class, one might even say. ;-)


Somehow I never was a fan of Old Obi-Wan. Didn't feel strongly about him in the first movie and his part in the rest of the story felt actually rather unlikeable to me.

I can see that, though I also wonder at when you were exposed to Star Wars, and in what order... I think having been exposed to Sir Alec as Obi-wan my entire life greatly influences my preference for him over Ewan McGregor (though, as others have said, it isn't to slight Ewan McGregor... he's just up against Alec Guinness; kinda like saying of someone "Well, he's no Freddie Mercury"... is that an insult, or simply saying "He's no the best ever?").

[Zaydos]

When I saw the thread title I pictured old Obi-Wan but I also thought immediately of Mentor Occupational Hazard and expected a thread about the way mentor characters so often die. Ewan McGregor was the best part of the prequels, even though Christopher Lee was in them.

[Mando Knight]

I honestly don't think about the face first, but the voice. James Arnold Taylor's voice.

[Legato Endless]

He is just so much cooler in every way than the one from Episode 4.

Is it the archetype? Not a fan of mentors, or the execution? Or the fact that he doesn't have the same dynamism in the OT?



I can see that, though I also wonder at when you were exposed to Star Wars, and in what order... I think having been exposed to Sir Alec as Obi-wan my entire life greatly influences my preference for him over Ewan McGregor (though, as others have said, it isn't to slight Ewan McGregor... he's just up against Alec Guinness; kinda like saying of someone "Well, he's no Freddie Mercury"... is that an insult, or simply saying "He's no the best ever?").

Incidentally, I just saw the BBC's Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, which was quite enjoyable.

[BWR]

I think we all can agree that all movies except The Empire Strikes Back are in fact bad movies. :smallamused: But Episode 3 still gets to be second place when you rank them by quality.

We most certainly cannot agree on either of these points.

Alec Guinness all the way. Obi-EWan was a great choice and they did a great job with him, but Guinness is the original and best.

[Knaight]

It's more the new Obi-Wan for me. With that said, it's the new Obi-Wan as depicted in Darths and Droids, which comes to mind before the actual movies at this point.

[Yora]

Is it the archetype? Not a fan of mentors, or the execution?
Both, I think. I can't think of any case in which a wise old mentor character was a positive addition to the story. And Old Obi-Wan always seems to me as smug and condescending without really doing anything to deserve the respect he assumes he should get.

[Nai_Calus]

Alec Guiness, no question.

What are these prequels you speak of? :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Well, I'm a grognard at this point about Star Wars, so Alec Guinness, naturally, unless I'm discussing the prequels, which, let's be honest, is more likely, because there's more glaring problems with the prequels to discuss.

[Raimun]

I would say... both. Side to side, kind of just like in the thread above.

While it is true that the original trilogy was better as a whole than the prequel trilogy and I did first see him as Kenobi, I can't help but notice that Alec Guiness as Obi-Wan Kenobi always looks and sounds a bit... bored and annoyed to be part of something like Star Wars. And it's not just my imagination. It's a well known fact that the man despised Star Wars but took part anyway just because he recognized it would pay well. I've also come to understand that he even persuaded Lucas to kill off Obi-Wan and return him as a ghost. That way, he wouldn't need to pretend to be a space wizard as much in the original film or any possible sequels. However, while he does sound bored and annoyed, you could always argue that anyone would be so after what he's gone through... and then moving to a planet where nothing happens. And being a hermit to boot. Alec Guiness is still iconic to the series.

While, prequel trilogy is pretty bad, Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan Kenobi was brilliant. Overall, I would say he's my favorite character in the prequels. He acts well, has an interesting character arc, his part of the dialogue is always well delivered (except for the "Younglings"-part but that's mostly bad writing no amount of acting skill can redeem) and his action scenes with the lightsaber are always well executed and entertaining to watch. Say what you want about Guiness but I would say McGregor took the role more seriously and gave more effort.

[factotum]

Alec Guinness, and not sure how any other choice could be made. Ewan McGregor was by far and away the best thing in the prequels, but that's like saying that the half-eaten pie you just dropped on the floor is the best thing in the dog mess it landed in!

[BeerMug Paladin]

-bad writing no amount of acting skill can redeem-

Brian Blessed! He can act anything!

I have a hard time even remembering who that character is. But given a little while to jog my memory, I can sort of picture Alec Guinness. There's just something about the guy that exudes an aura of authenticity. Whether or not he despises the role.

Responding to an earlier statement, I've only seen 3, 4 and 5. I thought 3 was the best of them, but it wasn't my kind of movie. I'm probably not the right person to survey on things like this, though. But something did come to mind when I looked at the topic, so I thought I'd post.

[Killer Angel]

Alec Guinnes.
Because "these are not the droid you're looking for".

[Yora]

The second best performance in the prequels was Ian McDiarmid. Maybe he didn't have the same skill as Ewan McGregor to make a good performance out of terrible dialog and bad directing, but he did act with all the passion he could give. :smallbiggrin:
If you have no idea what the director wants to see and what mood the scene is supposed to have, make up something! Even if it's stupid, for a movie like Star Wars, a rediculously overacted performance is a lot better than no performance at all. Have you ever seen Samuel Jackson as bored and lifeless as in Star Wars?

[SirKazum]

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Obi+juan+kenobi+description_2c2ecb_3732557.jpg

[Soras Teva Gee]

How can anyone think of any Obi Wan but Guinness? I must be getting old. I mean yeah Gregor does a reasonable job but Alec Guinness phoning it in is still better acting then everyone but maybe Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee who were totally wasted.

Oh and he was phoning it in, Guinness only did the role for the money.

Fun Fact: He was specifically bribed with a cut of the SW box office gross. Just stop and think about that for a moment.


Have you ever seen Samuel Jackson as bored and lifeless as in Star Wars?

Jurassic Park?

[Radar]

Fun Fact: He was specifically bribed with a cut of the SW box office gross. Just stop and think about that for a moment.
At that point, noone though SW would be such a hit. I can reasonably bet that he expected the movie to flop or just fade into obscurity with little profit. Considering that Lucas was repurposing a scenario written for an adaptation he didn't get rights for (AFAIK, or was he repurposing the props and scenery? There was some recycling going anyway), I don't hold it against Guiness to be sceptical.

[Legato Endless]

If you have no idea what the director wants to see and what mood the scene is supposed to have, make up something! Even if it's stupid, for a movie like Star Wars, a rediculously overacted performance is a lot better than no performance at all. Have you ever seen Samuel Jackson as bored and lifeless as in Star Wars?

Assuming the rumors of Lucas being a massive control freak are true, they couldn't. Which is part of the problem. Star Wars had a massive number of people working on the film. I'm pretty sure more than a few had some better ideas for the camera work than Lucas' stock perspective he uses for half the dialogue. But its Lucas' baby, and just like he won't leave the previous films alone, he wouldn't leave the actors alone either, micro managing supposedly even minor movements.

Granted, all of my filmwork has been on a small stationary set, so I can't speak to experience there, but I do know theater, and when the director doesn't let the actors breathe at all, well, there's only so many ways it can go.

[Crow]

While Ewan Mcgregor is the only actor who actually managed to act in the prequels, his character is absolutely tainted by being in such bad movies. Thus, when I think of Obi-Wan, I remember the wise old sage from the original trilogy.

Also, no. We can't agree that SITH was the second best movie. It was the best out of prequels, maybe, but in my opinion comparing prequels to each other is like comparing new vomit and old. Sure, one of them might smell better, but it's still vomit.

Anakin: "From my point of view the jedi are evil!"

*Crow vomits*

To the topic: I picture Guinness, but character wise like Obi Wan from the Clone Wars animated series.

[Legato Endless]

Anakin: "From my point of view the jedi are evil!"

*Crow vomits*


"Well then you are lost!"

Revenge might not average for the worst dialogue in the saga, but the whole exchange in the climax is just so painful it would be hard to convince me otherwise.

"Only a Sith speaks in absolutes!"

"I HATE YOU!!!!"

"The Sith are eeevil!"

"Anakin, you're breaking my heart!" (Somewhat literally in fact.)

[Rakaydos]

"Anakin, you're breaking my heart!" (Somewhat literally in fact.)

There was actually a discussion about this somewhere. Actually, Sidius killed her with the force and used her life to revive Vader. He learned how from -his- master, the one who could bring back the dead.

How else did Sidius already know about padme's death? and Vader sencing her presence, despite being across the galaxy...

[Renegade Paladin]

There was actually a discussion about this somewhere. Actually, Sidius killed her with the force and used her life to revive Vader. He learned how from -his- master, the one who could bring back the dead.

How else did Sidius already know about padme's death? and Vader sencing her presence, despite being across the galaxy...

I believe you refer to this. (http://www.retrozap.com/padme-didnt-die-of-a-broken-heart/)

[Legato Endless]

There was actually a discussion about this somewhere. Actually, Sidius killed her with the force and used her life to revive Vader. He learned how from -his- master, the one who could bring back the dead.

That fits, and makes a fair bit of sense. Still doesn't make the line any better, but that's a nice move on Sideous' part.


How else did Sidius already know about padme's death? and Vader sencing her presence, despite being across the galaxy...

Well, except that powerful force sensitives do possess such powers of foresight and sensitivity, so it's not really implausible even if this weren't the case.

[Hyena]

There was actually a discussion about this somewhere. Actually, Sidius killed her with the force and used her life to revive Vader. He learned how from -his- master, the one who could bring back the dead.

How else did Sidius already know about padme's death? and Vader sencing her presence, despite being across the galaxy...

I think you might be giving George Lucas too much credit. Nothing in the prequels make sense without giant leaps of logic, outrageous assumptions, EU explanations by writers more competent then Lucas or "Palpatine was clouding their minds" excuse.

[Yora]

Well, we all know that nobody ever accused those movies of good writing.

[Aolbain]

Young Obi-Wan wins by default. Alec Guinness shows up, gives bad advise and dies 45 minutes later.

[BeerMug Paladin]

With the wallpapering of serious flaws that people have done regarding some of the more weird plot elements, it sounds to me like a remake would be a really good idea.

So that these things the movie clearly doesn't show, but would make events in the movie make a whole lot more sense, could be shown. So it wouldn't just have to be asserted after the movie ends.

[Rodin]

The "sensing stuff across the galaxy" stuff was at least well established in the original trilogy. Heck, it's why Vader tortured Han Solo - to make it so Luke could feel it.

[factotum]

At that point, noone though SW would be such a hit. I can reasonably bet that he expected the movie to flop or just fade into obscurity with little profit. Considering that Lucas was repurposing a scenario written for an adaptation he didn't get rights for (AFAIK, or was he repurposing the props and scenery? There was some recycling going anyway), I don't hold it against Guiness to be sceptical.

Seems to me it's entirely the reverse--why would he accept a portion of the box-office take if he was expecting the film to flop? He must have thought there was some money to be made there!

[Radar]

Seems to me it's entirely the reverse--why would he accept a portion of the box-office take if he was expecting the film to flop? He must have thought there was some money to be made there!
Because it was 150 000 bucks and 2% of the profits. As for the predictions about the movie, Lucas had to search quite a while for a studio willing to fund his project and when the movie was made, said studio needed to armwrestle theaters to order it. Even Lucas feared the movie will fail.

[Bulldog Psion]

Young Obi-Wan wins by default. Alec Guinness shows up, gives bad advise and dies 45 minutes later.

Young Obi-Wan for the reasons stated by this poster.

Obi-Wan spent 95% of his onscreen "life" as the young version. It's pretty hard not to view that as the Obi-Wan Kenobi, regardless of one's opinion of the prequels.

[Legato Endless]

Because it was 150 000 bucks and 2% of the profits. As for the predictions about the movie, Lucas had to search quite a while for a studio willing to fund his project and when the movie was made, said studio needed to armwrestle theaters to order it. Even Lucas feared the movie will fail.

Lucas yes, Guinness saw the writing on the wall. The reason someone specifically goes into contract negotiation for royalties is because they believe the work is going to be successful. I realize no one was meant to be hyperbolic, but Guinness didn't lapse into this, he made a discerning business decision.

He wasn't fond of what followed, the endless identification to a singular part when he had an accomplished career, but he wasn't completely disdainful and was well aware of it's merits.


"It's a pretty staggering film as spectacle and technically brilliant. Exciting, very noisy and warm-hearted. The battle scenes at the end go on for five minutes too long, I feel, and some of the dialogue is excruciating and much of it is lost in noise, but it remains a vivid experience." -Guinness upon seeing the finished product.

[factotum]

Young Obi-Wan for the reasons stated by this poster.

Obi-Wan spent 95% of his onscreen "life" as the young version. It's pretty hard not to view that as the Obi-Wan Kenobi, regardless of one's opinion of the prequels.

It entirely depends on how much time one has personally spent with each version of the character, surely? If you add up the Alec Guinness Obi-Wan time I've seen from the numerous times I've watched Star Wars, it comes to *way* longer than the Ewan McGregor time from my single viewing of the prequels.

[Psyren]

Young Obi-Wan wins by default. Alec Guinness shows up, gives bad advise and dies 45 minutes later.

What bad advice did he give, if you don't mind me asking? I thought the training regimen he cooked up on the fly for Luke (again, ignoring the prequels) was pretty brilliant.

[BannedInSchool]

It entirely depends on how much time one has personally spent with each version of the character, surely? If you add up the Alec Guinness Obi-Wan time I've seen from the numerous times I've watched Star Wars, it comes to *way* longer than the Ewan McGregor time from my single viewing of the prequels.
I needed my memory jogged on who Obi-Wan was in the prequels at this point.:smalltongue:

[Traab]

[QUOTE=Legato Endless;18853041]

"Only a Sith speaks in absolutes!"
/QUOTE]

Seriously, every time I hear that line my eyebrow twitches.


"Only a Sith speaks in absolutes!"
Only
Only
Only!!!!!!!!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Oh and he was phoning it in, Guinness only did the role for the money.


Doing something for the money doesn't mean you're phoning it in. Not if you're a real professional.

Getting anything out of that script is a lot of work even if its joyless work.


I'm pretty sure more than a few had some better ideas for the camera work than Lucas' stock perspective he uses for half the dialogue.

There's nothing wrong with that. Fancy camera work on dialogue scenes is a terrible idea in general. Most of Lucas' framings were rip offs of Kurosawa's so blame the master instead of the student.

Lucas was probably a better cameraman than a director, seeing how he's a terrible director and got into film school to be a cameraman.


Granted, all of my filmwork has been on a small stationary set, so I can't speak to experience there, but I do know theater, and when the director doesn't let the actors breathe at all, well, there's only so many ways it can go.

That's a luxury you usually can't afford.

I've worked on a student film where the director just wanted to let the actors have as much room as possible. It ended up with a plodding and overlong film that just wasn't as interesting as the director thought it was.

Sacrificing acting quality for pacing is one of those painful trade offs you have to make.

The main area where studio and stage don't compare is that you don't have to care about people being in the same place for editing, but I'm sure that's a completely different level of micromanagement to what you're talking about.


Well, we all know that nobody ever accused those movies of good writing.

Star Wars has a well written screenplay, that's what happens when you have the rising stars of New Hollywood to critique your drafts for you. The dialogue is hard to act to but that's not the most important part of screenwriting, just the most obvious to people who don't have to do it.

[Solaris]

I prefer Oldie-Wan Kenobi, but I also like Ewan MacGregor's Obi-Wan. He's pretty much the only thing I like about the prequel trilogy. He was well-cast and did a good job with the material he had.


Responding to an earlier statement, I've only seen 3, 4 and 5. I thought 3 was the best of them, but it wasn't my kind of movie. I'm probably not the right person to survey on things like this, though. But something did come to mind when I looked at the topic, so I thought I'd post.

I used to think you were cool. RotS was just rotten. Best of the prequel trilogy, sure, but that's still really, really lousy. I'd rather watch RotJ than RotS, and that one has Ewoks.

[Rodin]

Will I get lynched if I say that RotJ has always been my favorite?

Of course, I first watched the movies as a kid, so the Ewoks have always been a non-issue.

I tend to hold some pretty heretical positions on movies anyway. I enjoyed Ghostbusters 2 better than Ghostbusters 1 (again, guess which I saw first?), and I like Last Crusade better than Raiders.

Still, the prequel trilogy were beyond the pale. Oldie-Wan Kenobi all the way, though I agree that McGregor did a grand job. He was a demonstration of what the prequel movies could have been. Him, and Genndry Tartakovsky's Clone Wars cartoon.

[factotum]

Yeah, we can only imagine what the prequels would have been like if they'd replaced the writer, the director, and at least one cast member (Hayden Christensen, I'm looking at you here). Mind you, the Star Wars prequels don't even count as the worst thing he's ever been in--try watching Jumper some time!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Will I get lynched if I say that RotJ has always been my favorite?


The final battle is cool without the Ewoks and Palpatine makes up for most of the bad stuff by himself.

[Radar]

The final battle is cool without the Ewoks and Palpatine makes up for most of the bad stuff by himself.
Most definately true: the interactions between Luke, Vader and Palpatine in the grand finale are one of the highest points of the series.

[BWR]

I saw RotJ when it came out. I was 4. Guess which movie has been my favorite all these years? Guess which part of the movie I loved as a kid and wanted to be?
Sure, my favorite part now is Vader/Luke/Palpatine, but it's still my favorite movie of all the SW movies.
Even now I really can't see the complaint against Ewoks. "They're cute" is hardly a good argument for why they are terrible.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Even now I really can't see the complaint against Ewoks. "They're cute" is hardly a good argument for why they are terrible.


My theory is that people primarily love these movies based on how old they were on their initial viewings. I think I was either 22 or 23 when I saw any of them for the first time. Which is the primary reason why I think I didn't care for them. I want to stress up front that this is not intended as any kind of value judgement. If you have fun watching a movie, nobody can take that away from you.

I would wonder if maybe by the time RotJ came out a lot of people who saw the first two were too old too appreciate the campier elements of the series. This also neatly explains the hate people have for the prequels. All the original fans were too old to 'get it' by the time those came out. Including those people who got to grow up with the complete original trilogy as kids.

Additionally, I think people tend to latch onto rather superficial, obvious traits to explain why they think a thing is bad. So if the real problems are a death by a thousand cuts type deal of minor plot, character and setting problems sprinkled throughout, they're more likely to hammer on relatively trivial (but very visible) details and blow their importance way out of proportion, because doing so makes critique easier.

Granted, as an admitted non-watcher of half of these movies (and the one with the Ewoks in particular), this is at least a wildly overconfident guess. But I have noticed similar phenomenon before in plenty of other media fandoms. So if something like this is responsible for Ewok-hate, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Solaris]

... Sure, my favorite part now is Vader/Luke/Palpatine, but it's still my favorite movie of all the SW movies.

RotJ is my favorite, too, mostly for the space battles and the scene on the Death Star.
Also maybe the Leia bikini. I admit nothing.
The space battles are my favorite parts of the prequel trilogy, too, and a part of me kind of wishes Lucas would have made that trilogy about a bunch of starfighter pilots in the Clone Wars rather than... well, Anakin's 'romance' with Padme.


Even now I really can't see the complaint against Ewoks. "They're cute" is hardly a good argument for why they are terrible.

I don't have a problem with them for being cute (this is Star Wars we're talking about, after all; if you're taking it seriously you're doing it wrong). It's that a bunch of stone age primitives took out half a legion of the Emperor's best troops using rocks and sticks and that was the climactic ground battle of the Galactic Civil War.


My theory is that people primarily love these movies based on how old they were on their initial viewings. I think I was either 22 or 23 when I saw any of them for the first time. Which is the primary reason why I think I didn't care for them. I want to stress up front that this is not intended as any kind of value judgement. If you have fun watching a movie, nobody can take that away from you.

I would wonder if maybe by the time RotJ came out a lot of people who saw the first two were too old too appreciate the campier elements of the series. This also neatly explains the hate people have for the prequels. All the original fans were too old to 'get it' by the time those came out. Including those people who got to grow up with the complete original trilogy as kids.

Additionally, I think people tend to latch onto rather superficial, obvious traits to explain why they think a thing is bad. So if the real problems are a death by a thousand cuts type deal of minor plot, character and setting problems sprinkled throughout, they're more likely to hammer on relatively trivial (but very visible) details and blow their importance way out of proportion, because doing so makes critique easier.

Granted, as an admitted non-watcher of half of these movies (and the one with the Ewoks in particular), this is at least a wildly overconfident guess. But I have noticed similar phenomenon before in plenty of other media fandoms. So if something like this is responsible for Ewok-hate, it wouldn't surprise me.

You might be on to something there. I can admit that the Original Trilogy aren't great when it comes to the story, but I think a big part of the reason I can't stand the prequel trilogy is due to Jar Jar Binks being all over TPM, the Jedi being mind-numbingly stupid, and the awkward, stilted 'romance' between Anakin and Padme. None of these were really problems in the OT, with the exception of the Empire being stupid to parallel the Jedi in the PT - but I can accept the faceless bad guy mooks being stupid and incompetent. I can't accept the very wise old Jedi masters, who we're told are very wise at every opportunity, being stupid and incompetent at everything but combat.
If you take that stuff out, they wander back towards being the same sort of fun as the OT.

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't have a problem with them for being cute (this is Star Wars we're talking about, after all; if you're taking it seriously you're doing it wrong). It's that a bunch of stone age primitives took out half a legion of the Emperor's best troops using rocks and sticks and that was the climactic ground battle of the Galactic Civil War.


Precisely this is also why the Ewoks make me facepalm. :smallbiggrin: I somehow doubt that a bunch of 2 foot tall people armed with sticks would defeat a modern armored division, say. And when you consider that the armor and weapons and sensors of Star Wars are by definition far superior to those of our own day, the Ewok thing becomes so absurd it isn't even funny-bad; it's just bad. Embarrassingly so.

I know I'll probably be branded a heretic for this, but I rank all the Star Wars movies as about the same level. If you ignore half the characters and half of what's going on, the other half is really fun. If you try to absorb everything rather than being selective, you'll switch it off 10 minutes in and go watch a gloomy, pessimistic, gritty crime drama of some kind in order to try to clear the Lucas out of your brain.


Lucas: noun:

1. A spiritual substance with the same unpleasant characteristics that mucus has is the physical world. Causes an unclean sensation in the mind after focusing too long on Jar-Jar Binks, Sy Snootles, Ewoks, or other abominations of the Star Wars universe.

2. A similar sense of slimy mental contamination caused by movies excessively influenced by the eponymous director, such as portions of the Hobbit movies.

[Solaris]

I know I'll probably be branded a heretic for this, but I rank all the Star Wars movies as about the same level. If you ignore half the characters and half of what's going on, the other half is really fun. If you try to absorb everything rather than being selective, you'll switch it off 10 minutes in and go watch a gloomy, pessimistic, gritty crime drama of some kind in order to try to clear the Lucas out of your brain.

Heretic! Burn the witch! Purge the unclean!

Joking aside, I feel the same way about the Lord of the Rings movies. I usually skip over a lot of the parts with Frodo and Sam in Two Towers and Return of the King.

[BWR]

I don't have a problem with them for being cute (this is Star Wars we're talking about, after all; if you're taking it seriously you're doing it wrong). It's that a bunch of stone age primitives took out half a legion of the Emperor's best troops using rocks and sticks and that was the climactic ground battle of the Galactic Civil War.


The way I remember it is the Ewoks managed to kill a couple handful of troops with some cleverly laid traps and ambushes (think about how they either planned this well in advanced and waited for the right time or marvel at how quickly they built those they made) then once the surprise round was over the Imperials rallied and drove them off. Their grand assault would have done nothing permanently had Chewie not commandeered that one ATST, and even that wouldn't have worked had Han not fooled the base commander.
The Ewoks were a distraction, plain and simple. They kept the baddies occupied so the heroes could save the day.

[Hyena]

Yeah, we can only imagine what the prequels would have been like if they'd replaced the writer, the director, and at least one cast member (Hayden Christensen, I'm looking at you here). Mind you, the Star Wars prequels don't even count as the worst thing he's ever been in--try watching Jumper some time!

Don't talk crap about Hayden here, he's a fine actor and he's working with the material given to him. If it weren't for Lucas horrible writing and directing, he would do a much better perfomance.

[Solaris]

Don't talk crap about Hayden here, he's a fine actor and he's working with the material given to him. If it weren't for Lucas horrible writing and directing, he would do a much better perfomance.

Did he do well in movies before the prequel trilogy?

[factotum]

Don't talk crap about Hayden here, he's a fine actor and he's working with the material given to him. If it weren't for Lucas horrible writing and directing, he would do a much better perfomance.

I said (or implied, as the case may be) precisely two things about Hayden Christensen: (a) he gave a terrible performance in the Star Wars prequels and (b) he gave an even worse one in Jumper. Which of those is "crap", exactly?

[Traab]

Will I get lynched if I say that RotJ has always been my favorite?

Of course, I first watched the movies as a kid, so the Ewoks have always been a non-issue.

I tend to hold some pretty heretical positions on movies anyway. I enjoyed Ghostbusters 2 better than Ghostbusters 1 (again, guess which I saw first?), and I like Last Crusade better than Raiders.

Still, the prequel trilogy were beyond the pale. Oldie-Wan Kenobi all the way, though I agree that McGregor did a grand job. He was a demonstration of what the prequel movies could have been. Him, and Genndry Tartakovsky's Clone Wars cartoon.

I rate the indiana jones trilogy as best to worst, 3,1,2 but thats just me.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, the Ewok fight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Qs6GznIBk) isn't quite as bad as my memory was making it. I still think the swinging log trap is pretty absurd (those things are armored at least as well as a Russian BMP or a Marine LAV, and I doubt a couple of swung logs would do much to either of those besides making a loud clang), as is the walker that explodes as soon as it tips over (dang thing has energy weapons, even, not ammunition, even :smallwink: ). Yet my recollection made it worse; it's a bit cartoony, sure, but it doesn't have a patch on Jar-Jar.

And at least the catapult stones glanced harmlessly off the walkers, and some of their plans failed (like the Ewoks being dragged along the ground violently by their attempt to lasso a leg).

While it shows that Lucas doesn't give a hoot about any reasonable materials strength, it's still more watchable than I anticipated.

I also suspect this scene is one of the main origins of the "Stormtroopers can't shoot" trope. :smallbiggrin: Han and Leia and the two droids are trapped in the open with a platoon of riflemen firing at them from what looks to be 40 feet away, and only 2 glancing hits result in about 5 minutes. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

I dunno, those werent just logs, they were practically full grown TREES being slammed into the armored unit. That is possibly thousands of pounds of weight smashing into both sides at once.

[Rodin]

I seem to remember them testing the logs on Mythbusters, and they delivered a truly stunning amount of force.

Of course, Star Wars vehicles are meant to be shielded and made with with futuristic materials and etc. etc., but it never really stuck out for me any more than cars exploding in mid-air.

I got the DVDs for Christmas this year so I got to watch the original trilogy for the first time in well over 10 years, and there were a couple things in the battle of Hoth that stuck out on a re-watch. The AT-ATs are heavily shielded/armored, enough to render ship blasters and heavy weapon emplacements totally ineffective against them...at least until one of them trips up. Once it's on the ground, a fighter is able to fire directly into it's face (you know, the heavily armored and shielded bit that they were already attacking) and it just...explodes. Because it's shield generator got taken out by faceplanting into the snow? Another one has Luke able to easily attach a grapnel to it and then cut his way inside with only a lightsaber.

In terms of silliness in the battles, they're all pretty silly when you look back on them as an adult.

Watching the original trilogy again did highlight why I was so disappointed with the prequel trilogy. They were campy adventure stories, which allowed a lot of their flaws to be overlooked. Even today I felt like they still stood up - sure, nostalgia played a role, but I still got drawn into the plots of the movies in a way that the prequel trilogies never did. I had a hard time even understanding the plot of Attack of the Clones on the first watch. And while I hated Jar Jar Binks on the first watch of Phantom Menace, the problem wasn't really with him. It was that that simply made Anakin too young to be a protagonist. They tried to give him romantic chemistry with Padme when he was freaking 8 years old. It made the space battle at the end less "young genius comes into his own" and more Home Alone IIIIIN SPAAAAAAACCCEEEEE. If they had stuck to the format for the latter two movies they might have been able to save it, but instead they were more interested in showing the political origins of the Empire, which I simply didn't care about. I came for the swashbuckling adventure and the origins of Darth Vader, and they screwed up both pretty horribly.

[Traab]

For the record, those two legged walker things have to be some of the stupidest weapon platforms ever. The thing is two legged, thats not very stable. The thing has two view ports, front only. It has only one set of dual blaster weapons, front only, and has a fairly pathetic firing arc. They are basically built for classic revolutionary army style line fighting where both sides stand in a row and shoot at each other till one side dies. I could literally run circles around the dang thing while on foot. The AT-AT machines that were at Hoth are almost worse. They at least have 4 legs, for more stability, but they have a gun emplacement on the front, then the other 90% of its structure is just pointless size intimidation. "Oooh! Look at me! Im BIG! Run in fear from my laser blasters! No, not run behind me, RUN AWAY FROM ME! Oh no, I cant see where they went now." /is blown up by sticky bombs or whatever.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, the AT-ATs aren't really supposed to be tanks. They're All-Terrain Armored Transports, basically just glorified APCs. That can, apparently, be outrun by infantry, so they fail even in their intended purpose.

[Seruvius]

Going to have to go with Ewan Mcgregor and Obi from the prequels, as much as I agree with the general dislike of the prequels.

Just adding to the AT-AT discussion. According to Star Wars: The essential guide to vehicles and vessels (extra book that details all the supposed mechanics in the machines), the ATAT is "one of the most heavily armored land vehicles possed by the Empire" and "Designed for the dual purpose of crushing and demoralizing enemy forces, and also serving as a transport for Imperial troops and light vehicles, the AT-AT was among the most awesome vehicles in the Imperial Army's inventory"

So while yes it is a transport vehicle, its main purpose was to scare everyone silly by being hard as nails and dishing out huge volumes of firepower.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, all of the Star Wars fights are pretty ridiculous even on their own terms. :smallwink:

The walkers move at about 2 miles per hour, from the looks of it.

The clone wars battles in Attack of the Clones involves giant crowds running at each other in the open on a flat plain firing.

Jumping on top of an enemy droid and shooting it from there is a viable tactic.

A two-foot guy with a stick is a deadly threat to a six foot guy in high-tech self-contained battle armor, more than the other way around, in fact.

People with energy bolt rifles miss stationary human-sized targets out in the open 40 feet from them consistently.

Fleet battles are basically Napoleonic fleet actions in space.

Two-legged walkers apparently have two open windows in the front for viewing, and no other viewing apparatus. They also lack an external machine gun or equivalent for clearing infantry.

Jedi can deflect blaster bolts, so of course nobody ever lobs a grenade at them or roasts them with a flamethrower, or gasses them or hoses them down with a stream of flesh-shredding nanobots.

All walkers are designed to explode when they fall over.

Robots that shut down also fall apart immediately.

Wookiies use laser-firing crossbows.

I could go on, but it's hilariously obvious that George Lucas never read a single book on military history, never touched an actual weapon let alone firing it, and basically is as good a writer of tactical action as he is an author of romantic dialogue between Padme and Anakin. :smallbiggrin: So it's really unfair of me to single out the Ewok fight; it's just one very minor absurdity in a long, long catalog of them.

[Pex]

I think we all can agree that all movies except The Empire Strikes Back are in fact bad movies. :smallamused: But Episode 3 still gets to be second place when you rank them by quality.

No, we can't.

[factotum]

Another one has Luke able to easily attach a grapnel to it and then cut his way inside with only a lightsaber.


Well, a lightsabre is supposed to be a very powerful weapon indeed (much as I hate to bring up the prequels, Qui-Gon Jinn is cutting through a completely blaster-proof door with one in "The Phantom Menace"), so it's not beyond the bounds of belief that anything *other* than a lightsabre wouldn't have been able to do that.

[danzibr]

I grew up with the original trilogy, but I gotta say... he feels a lot more epic in the prequel trilogy.

Like, it wasn't until the prequel trilogy I realized he was actually an incredibly powerful Jedi.

[Tridax]

I think Evan McGregor nailed it. His character came out as charismatic as he was devoted to the principles of the Jedi order, which I think is a success.

Oh, and I actually never understood the prequels hate. C'mon, they weren't that bad. Maybe not on par with the earlier episodes, but still.

[BWR]

Oh, and I actually never understood the prequels hate. C'mon, they weren't that bad. Maybe not on par with the earlier episodes, but still.

I partially agree with you. They weren't as terrible as some people like to pretend. Most of the hate is because it wasn't as awesome as the OT, and therefore somehow worse than it actually is. If it hadn't been SW, the movies would have been considered pretty impressive sf adventures, with a few weaknesses.

TPM is a pretty bad movie all around. Not just Jar-Jar but everything else about it. The dialogue is clunky and hard to get to sound decent (only Liam Neeson managed to sound convincing), there are some really stupid scenes (giving R2 a medal - it's like awarding your tool-box a medal for being used to do a job), a lot of badly constructed savior stuff (prophecies, virgin births - these were entirely unnecessary), the need to have a 9 year old genius who can out-fly everyone and build speeders and droids, the slapstick humor. The direction...it's obvious Lucas is rusty and there are several scenes you can literally see the actors finish their lines then just wait awkwardly a second or two before hearing 'cut'.
The actions scenes are pretty good, the sets are beautiful and there is a SW sense of wonder, however bungled.

The later movies got better. Still flawed, but hardly terrible.

[factotum]

You can't honestly tell me you watched the "romance" between Anakin and Padme in the second two movies and thought, "Yes, there is so much chemistry between the participants in this scene"? Given that this romance was supposed to be largely driving the plot, it left a gaping void there which the best efforts of the other actors involved could not fill. Yes, they weren't as terrible as TPM, but then, having a tooth extracted without anaesthetic wouldn't be as terrible as TPM, so it's not saying much!

[Clertar]

The PT offers nothing new, it's just backstory to things that we already know. On top of that, very poorly written and directed.

Anakin Skywalker’s story isn’t actually a story. More specifically, Darth Vader’s entire arc of rise, fall, and redemption is just an element of Luke Skywalker’s story. It was written in that context and, when taken out of that context, becomes largely uninteresting. How Anakin became Darth Vader isn’t inherently compelling because it’s just more of what we already know, just in more detail. Even if it were told very well, Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side is backstory- it exists to service another story and doesn’t stand on its own. This approach is extended to every element of the PT, from the Clone Wars to the Hutts. Lucas devoted three films to fill in the blanks of the three previous films; there is not a more handicapped way to execute prequels. It’s one thing to revisit themes, but here it’s nothing more than retreading the same story, but from the less interesting angle.

Lucas’s prequels flesh out details, but offer little in the way of original content. They never venture far beyond addressing elements of the OT, filling us in on history like a guidebook. Star Wars films need to push forward, not merely pay homage to earlier Star Wars films, and it’s here that I believe Lucas made his core failure. They’re backstories instead of stories.
http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/post/60034251498/the-star-wars-prequels-some-things-are-better

[Alent]

To answer the OP, I generally default to Sir Alec Guinness, but Episode 3 Obiwan does come to mind more often than not if only because of the General Grevious dueling scene.

I'm not that serious of SW fan, tho'. I watched the original trilogy a bunch growing up, but I'm not especially attached to it at this point. I'm kind of afraid to watch the original trilogy today as an adult, since it's been over ten years and my critical eye has developed considerably since then.


You can't honestly tell me you watched the "romance" between Anakin and Padme in the second two movies and thought, "Yes, there is so much chemistry between the participants in this scene"? Given that this romance was supposed to be largely driving the plot, it left a gaping void there which the best efforts of the other actors involved could not fill. Yes, they weren't as terrible as TPM, but then, having a tooth extracted without anaesthetic wouldn't be as terrible as TPM, so it's not saying much!

So true on TPM.

This thread and my group's current SW D20 campaign drove me to watch the Prequel trilogy for the first time since Episode 3 aired in theatres. I'm watching and I'm wondering "Why am I doing this to myself? This is terrible, none of the event sequencing makes sense!" Darths and Droids made me forget how bad the prequels actually were.

[007_ctrl_room]

Sir Alec Guinness. Not even close lol.

[Psyren]

To be fair, the AT-ATs aren't really supposed to be tanks. They're All-Terrain Armored Transports, basically just glorified APCs. That can, apparently, be outrun by infantry, so they fail even in their intended purpose.

To be fair, infantry running everywhere in armor and carrying gear are just going to die tired. So even if the APC or equivalent is slower than going on foot, there's still good reason to use it.

Besides, Stormtrooper aim is bad enough even before fatigue penalties :smalltongue:

[Yora]

Oh, and I actually never understood the prequels hate. C'mon, they weren't that bad. Maybe not on par with the earlier episodes, but still.
Does anyone know a website where you can make a poll in which people would rank the six movies in order of preference and it shows results from most loved to least liked? That would really interest me.

[Zaydos]

Does anyone know a website where you can make a poll in which people would rank the six movies in order of preference and it shows results from most loved to least liked? That would really interest me.

I don't at least not directly, but it is interesting to look at their ratings on IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes

IMDB:
Empire Strikes Back (8.8), A New Hope (8.7), RotJ (8.4), RotS (7.7), AotC (6.8), Phantom Menace (6.6); this is the order I usually hear with Empire and New Hope sometimes being switched and AotC and Phantom Menace sometimes being switched. Occasionally I see RotJ rated 1st, 2nd, or 4th, with RotS sometimes reaching 3rd. I've seen exceptions in online discussions but they are fairly rare.

Rotten Tomatoes:
Empire (96% Critics/97% audience), New Hope (93% critics/96% audience), RotJ (79% critics/95% audience), RotS (80% critics/65% audience), AotC (67% critics/60% audience), Phantom Menace (57% critics/60% audience). I'd mostly ignore internet critics on the OT, Empire and New Hope are sacred cows which they aren't going to lambaste, only RotJ is likely to get rough treatment as it's usually called the worst of the trilogy and they can get away with saying it's bad by saying it's bad compared to the first two. RotS does, interestingly, beat it by a hair there, though looking at the consensus it seems odd since RotJ's is "good but not as good as the first two" and RotS's is "it has nice special effects and the weight of the whole series behind it". AotC ties from the fan base with TPM (which doesn't actually surprise me) but the critics hate TPM apparently comparing the responses because too much talking not enough fighting.

Personally I'd rank them Empire ~ New Hope (depends upon my mood when you ask me) -> RotJ -> RotS (but again somewhat mood dependent) -> TPM ~ AotC. New Hope has a lovely story which is fun to watch, and is just generally uplifting. Empire, being the middle of the cycle, is in some ways the darkest hour and we see the heroes lose. It's probably the better story, shows more character growth and the like, but it scratches a different itch and the stories are close enough that it depends upon whether I'm in a dark or light mood that day which I'd say is better. RotJ is the weakest of the OT, even when I was a kid and considered the ewoks a plus it was the weakest of the OT. Luke just doesn't pull off the "end of the journey" well enough, watching it as an adult I'm always confused whether he's supposed to be skirting the darkside through the entire film (casually choking gammoreans, some of his dialogues), but if so he still seems to heroic and sane and wise, Han is weaker in the story, and it's not really the actors who are worse it's just the story isn't as self cohesive. While it's still a good/fun movie, it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because it could have been better. RotS, on the other hand, actually does give Anakin the focus he needed, it does give the characters that sense of wholeness which is refreshing after AotC and TPM, but they're still not particularly well written or built up characters so what it's doing is catch up for I and II. The fight scenes are some of the best in Sci-Fi, though, and it's a great Big Screen movie. Unfortunately it loses a lot more on a smaller screen than VI, and ultimately despite having wonderful eye candy it lacks anything with the impact of Luke and Vader's final fight and Vader's sacrifice. While the Grevious fight is wonderful and a sight to behold, the final fight of VI stands high above the entirety of the PT and most of the OT. Comparably the final fight of III is not even the best thing in it (the Grevious fight beats it imho), it's a good climax for the PT, and the movie as a whole wraps it up very well, but it's dragged down by having to pull up I and II and you can tell the special effects took so much the acting and writing suffered due to green screen and idek. With the final pair... Episode I has 8 year old Anakin and he just doesn't work, the plot isn't all that great, and Jar Jar is annoying comedy relief, but Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are fun. Episode II is actually really, really kind of dumb, but I enjoy some of the fights, and the action is fun, and as a teenager I thought Natalie Portman was hot. Ultimately the two are about equal and whichever one I haven't seen as recently is "better". In part that might be because I am not a re-watcher of films (the OT being an exception) and in part it might be a commentary on the films' quality that the more I forget the better they seem.

[danzibr]

Huh. I greatly deviate from the norm, I suppose. My favorite is Revenge of the Sith. Love the tragedy.

[Legato Endless]

Jedi can deflect blaster bolts, so of course nobody ever lobs a grenade at them or roasts them with a flamethrower, or gasses them or hoses them down with a stream of flesh-shredding nanobots.


To be fair in this example, Jedi have telekinesis, so I'm not sure what would stop the Jedi from simply returning it mid throw.


All walkers are designed to explode when they fall over.

It's probably more cost effective for the Empire than spending time hoisting them back up.


Huh. I greatly deviate from the norm, I suppose. My favorite is Revenge of the Sith. Love the tragedy.

I like the concept. The main issue it runs aground is the fact that Anakin isn't particularly compelling or understandable when he falls, let alone sympathetic. That's a fairly crucial element when one writes a tragedy. And since I'm supposed to be believe this is the guy who transforms into one of the most iconic characters in all of cinema, it's admittedly a tall order. Anakin doesn't even really seem like he falls considering the (bizarrely glossed over in Padme's case) destruction of the Tusken Raider tribe. He's just a ludicrously unstable gent who kills children whenever his family is threatened. You can play that for dark comedy or horror, but it's not going to be unsettling to your audience or tragic in any fashion. When Sideous turns him, I marvel less at the Emperor's precise beat by beat planning for setting this up and more at the inevitably. If Palpatine didn't take advantage of this crazed idiot, someone else would have. (the Clone War Cartoon does a much better job handling this transition) Vader, after being seduced by ultimate evil, while slightly more callous, seems way more stable by comparison.

[zimmerwald1915]

Jedi can deflect blaster bolts, so of course nobody ever lobs a grenade at them or roasts them with a flamethrower, or gasses them or hoses them down with a stream of flesh-shredding nanobots.
Both Fetts use flamethrowers against Jedi (Obi-Wan in Attack of the Clones and Luke in Return of the Jedi), albeit not very effectively. The Trade Federation tried to gas Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace, also not very effectively. They must not have had enough gas to flood the whole ship (keeping the bridge, where the only other living people are, sealed off). Nanobots are apparently used for torture and interrogation in A New Hope, but they appear to be delivered intravenously. Would it be possible to aerosolize them? As for grenades, the Rebels use them in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, but I can't recall the Empire ever using them. For some reason.

[russdm]

I liked Obiwan from both trilogies, but I also like both trilogies with parts from both I dislike.

In ranking the movies, I would say: Empire, New Hope, RotS, RotJ/AotC, TPM.

The Ewoks really wreck Jedi because it is simply so stupid. Ewoks with stone weapons defeats the Emperor's best troops and because they are committed or whatever? No matter how dedicated you are, if you are going up against troops with blasters with stone weapons, you all die. Seriously, what kind of stupidity says stone weapons trumps laser weapons? Big heavy trees hitting walker from both sides I can believe, walker exploding from falling over on trees, not so much.

Then we have the Imperials opening the door and sending out troops to help after being told the Rebels are being routed and fleeing. Why didn't they call for that AT-AT that was lurking around earlier? Why do they need to send troops out anyway, if the rebels are routed and fleeing into the woods, why do you need a pursuit? Didn't earlier we see the entire rebel team captured outside the bunker before the ewoks showed up? Did anybody try to rescue them? No, so why would you need more troops?

Attack of the Clones is better when you watch mainly Obiwan's stuff, but ignore Anakin/Padme. That romance story is way too crappy.

Sidious, oh Sidious....

Sidious started out in the OT as being really dangerous. Thanks to the PT, he is now Snidley Whiplash. He goes from great villainous manipulator (From what Lucas tells us in OT) to incapable moron. None of his enemies act in anyway smart or in a way showing they even have brains. That wrecks Sidious because it makes his victory more terrible since it is over a bunch of complete brain dead morons. So much for the great "Manipulator" that Lucas was hammering Siddy to be.

One point I think must be made: No novel material whether Legends or not should tell how capable Siddy is supposed to be. He has to sink or swim from the Films alone, not the movie novella or any other story. Otherwise, its total crap.

Villains better than Sidious (thanks to what Lucas did to him): Shan Yu from Mulan; Thulsa Doom from Conan the Barbarian; Gaston from Disney's Beauty and the Beast; the Patrician from Discworld (okay already clear anyway); Snidley Whiplash from Dudley Do-Right; Profion from the Dungeons & Dragons movie.

Seriously...

[Crow]

I don't know how anyone can say the final fight of III was one of the best in the series. "Let's swirl our sabres while we stand 3 feet in front of each other."

I think the final fight of PTM is better than anything in the rest of the prequel trilogy. Before they got swirling sabre mad. They used a real martial artist (granted still movie tactics, but the guy knew fight choreography) and plenty of wide-angle shots so you could see the dynamic between the three fighters. Also, unlike every other fight in the prequels, it had a rhythm. It reminded me of Jackie Chan's fight choreography in a lot of ways. It also transitioned between environments as the parties fought a running battle, but didn't take that environment completely overboard like the final battle of III.

[russdm]

I think the final fight of PTM is better than anything in the rest of the prequel trilogy. Before they got swirling sabre mad. They used a real martial artist (granted still movie tactics, but the guy knew fight choreography) and plenty of wide-angle shots so you could see the dynamic between the three fighters. Also, unlike every other fight in the prequels, it had a rhythm. It reminded me of Jackie Chan's fight choreography in a lot of ways. It also transitioned between environments as the parties fought a running battle, but didn't take that environment completely overboard like the final battle of III.

The final fight in TPM is one of the few good things about it, the others being Obiwan and Quigon. Everything else is garbage. The whole podrace, the idiotic business in the Senate (Seriously? A vote of No confindence and Valorum is out that fast?), the blockade, Anakin, Padme...it just goes on and on.

[Crow]

The final fight in TPM is one of the few good things about it, the others being Obiwan and Quigon. Everything else is garbage. The whole podrace, the idiotic business in the Senate (Seriously? A vote of No confindence and Valorum is out that fast?), the blockade, Anakin, Padme...it just goes on and on.

Oh trust me, I agree.

[factotum]

Anakin doesn't even really seem like he falls considering the (bizarrely glossed over in Padme's case) destruction of the Tusken Raider tribe. He's just a ludicrously unstable gent who kills children whenever his family is threatened.

I think that, right there, cuts straight to the heart of my biggest problem with the prequels. The original series was supposed to show Darth Vader's redemption, but as you say, Anakin killed a bunch of children not once, but twice: the Tusken raiders and the Jedi children in the temple. I just don't think killing the Emperor is enough to redeem that, to be honest, especially when it's largely Anakin's fault the Emperor gained power in the first place. (After all, if Anakin had not been present, Mace Windu would have killed Palpatine).

[Hyena]

Did he do well in movies before the prequel trilogy?
He was pretty good in Shattered Glass.

[Rakaydos]

The AT-AT machines that were at Hoth are almost worse. They at least have 4 legs, for more stability, but they have a gun emplacement on the front, then the other 90% of its structure is just pointless size intimidation. "Oooh! Look at me! Im BIG! Run in fear from my laser blasters! No, not run behind me, RUN AWAY FROM ME! Oh no, I cant see where they went now." /is blown up by sticky bombs or whatever.

To be fair, it's more mobile than the real world equipment that inspired them.

http://oaklandmofo.com/images/port-of-oakland-cranes.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/45/98/de/4598defd8052e6a9eaded08bd3a1ccfb.jpg

[Wardog]

Anakin Skywalker: From my point of view the Jedi are evil.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Then you are lost!


Hang on, I thought it was the Jedi who believed that truth could depend on your point of view, and the Sith that thought in absolutes...



The AT-ATs are heavily shielded/armored, enough to render ship blasters and heavy weapon emplacements totally ineffective against them...at least until one of them trips up. Once it's on the ground, a fighter is able to fire directly into it's face (you know, the heavily armored and shielded bit that they were already attacking) and it just...explodes. Because it's shield generator got taken out by faceplanting into the snow? Another one has Luke able to easily attach a grapnel to it and then cut his way inside with only a lightsaber.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WASr5-mS238#t=272

The speeder fires three salvos: the first hits the snow in front, the second hits the AT-AT in the "face", and the third hits it in the neck, whereupon it immediately explodes. I always assumed it was simply due to the neck being less well protected, and easier to hit when the AT-AT was down. (Or at least easier to do so without being shot).

And something that massive and that tall (15-25m, depending on source) probably would suffer quite a lot of damage if it fell over.

(The parts of that scene that seem off to me are
a) something that big and (presumably) strong being stopped by such a thin cable, and
b) why are the infantry running towards it?


As for Luke taking out the other AT-AT: if you look carefully, you can see that:
a) the "grapnel" has a flat head, so presumably is some sort of suction/magnetic clamp, and so should be able to stick to a hard flat hull
b) Luke doesn't cut the hull open. He uses his sabre to destroy some sort of locking mechanism, causing a hatch to slide open.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WASr5-mS238#t=452

[Traab]

I still maintain the entire prequel trilogy was set in the wrong time frame. Movie one should have been young padawan anakin, not pod racer boy. Him going through training, him being this prodigy, showing his relationships forming with his master and the rest of the jedi. Maybe throw in a little padme because at least now he is old enough to not think girls have cooties. Movie 2 should have been about him and obiwan being big damn heroes during the clone wars, or even the earlier battles before the whole clone thing happened. After all, we have to build up the fact that anakin IS a big damn hero. He is one of the best of the good guys. End the second film with some tragedy, show us a chink in his armor. Could be the loss of his mother, could be a failed mission where innocents died because he wasnt good enough. Show the relationship with padme starting. He is old enough to be attractive to the young senator and is a dashing hero. It makes sense that she would be attracted to him since she hasnt known him since before he hit double digits in age. I should mention a large part of this is being annoyed at movie two trying to tell us that anakin and obiwan have a long and strong relationship on the elevator ride with their little in jokes and whatnot. SHOW US! DONT TELL US! This is a critical part of the freaking story! We need to SEE anakin being the good guy, its not enough to just TELL us he is good and friends with obiwan.

The third movie is clone wars times. His relationship with padme grows towards a secret marriage and pregnancy, anakin is growing more brutal and harsh against his enemies, he doesnt want to risk failing again. His anger is growing, his fear of failure to protect is getting worse. Now he is having those visions of padme dying and its driving him mad. And all this time we see the shadowy form of the eventual emperor moving pieces around like a chess game, luring anakin to the dark side bit by bit. No 50th story drop into raw evil, a slow seduction driven by his need to keep everyone, but especially his wife, safe. The jedi are starting to turn against him due to his actions. The people support him. He is a big damn war hero, he is saving the day all the time, but he is doing it in ways the jedi cant support. He sees this as a betrayal, his simmering resentment over having to keep his marriage a secret is getting worse. I dont know what the final straw that breaks the camels back should be, but it should be something that anakin feels is justified. Not some, "Do as i say and I will save your wife. Now go slaughter children" sort of nonsense.

[LibraryOgre]

I still maintain the entire prequel trilogy was set in the wrong time frame. Movie one should have been young padawan anakin, not pod racer boy. Him going through training, him being this prodigy, showing his relationships forming with his master and the rest of the jedi.

This was the premise of betterstarwars.com, which rewrote Phantom Menace. Set on Alderaan, Anakin was a promising padawan with some deep anger issues related to being a bastard (i.e. no father). Even set a D6 Star Wars game in it.

[danzibr]

I like the concept. The main issue it runs aground is the fact that Anakin isn't particularly compelling or understandable when he falls, let alone sympathetic. That's a fairly crucial element when one writes a tragedy. And since I'm supposed to be believe this is the guy who transforms into one of the most iconic characters in all of cinema, it's admittedly a tall order. Anakin doesn't even really seem like he falls considering the (bizarrely glossed over in Padme's case) destruction of the Tusken Raider tribe. He's just a ludicrously unstable gent who kills children whenever his family is threatened. You can play that for dark comedy or horror, but it's not going to be unsettling to your audience or tragic in any fashion. When Sideous turns him, I marvel less at the Emperor's precise beat by beat planning for setting this up and more at the inevitably. If Palpatine didn't take advantage of this crazed idiot, someone else would have. (the Clone War Cartoon does a much better job handling this transition) Vader, after being seduced by ultimate evil, while slightly more callous, seems way more stable by comparison.
I actually totally agree (except for the Clone Wars stuff). While RotS is my favorite, the fall was somewhat unbelievable/could have been executed far better.

As for the Clone Wars stuff, I need to watch it.

[Rodin]

Movie 2 should have been about him and obiwan being big damn heroes during the clone wars, or even the earlier battles before the whole clone thing happened. After all, we have to build up the fact that anakin IS a big damn hero. He is one of the best of the good guys. End the second film with some tragedy, show us a chink in his armor. Could be the loss of his mother, could be a failed mission where innocents died because he wasnt good enough. Show the relationship with padme starting. He is old enough to be attractive to the young senator and is a dashing hero. It makes sense that she would be attracted to him since she hasnt known him since before he hit double digits in age. I should mention a large part of this is being annoyed at movie two trying to tell us that anakin and obiwan have a long and strong relationship on the elevator ride with their little in jokes and whatnot. SHOW US! DONT TELL US! This is a critical part of the freaking story! We need to SEE anakin being the good guy, its not enough to just TELL us he is good and friends with obiwan.


The original Clone Wars cartoon is basically this. It was better than any of the three prequel movies. We see Anakin and Obi-Wan during the Clone Wars, we see how he has a reckless side and how Obi-Wan isn't able to control him. It finally comes to a head when he disobeys Obi-Wan and pursues a Sith apprentice to a jungle planet. He gets pissed off as the Sith kills off the entire platoon of Clone troopers who came with him, and finally loses it when his R2 unit is destroyed with his ship. Cue dramatic rage-filled battle where Anakin kills the Sith in a roaring fury.

That Anakin I can believe becoming Darth Vader.

[hamishspence]

The original Clone Wars cartoon is basically this. It was better than any of the three prequel movies. We see Anakin and Obi-Wan during the Clone Wars, we see how he has a reckless side and how Obi-Wan isn't able to control him. It finally comes to a head when he disobeys Obi-Wan and pursues a Sith apprentice to a jungle planet. He gets pissed off as the Sith kills off the entire platoon of Clone troopers who came with him, and finally loses it when his R2 unit is destroyed with his ship. Cue dramatic rage-filled battle where Anakin kills the Sith in a roaring fury.

That Anakin I can believe becoming Darth Vader.

While she doesn't actually die (later comics reveal she survived) - that series did have lots of this kind of foreshadowing.

So did the aforesaid comics for that matter - they have another run in in which Anakin wraps her in electrified cables using the Force and drops her from a great height.

She lives.

To paraphrase Frank Herbert's Dune:

"Never count a Sith dead, until you've seen their body. And even then, you can make a mistake."