Paladin multiclass

[domrek]

Hey lovely peoples, wanted some opinions

so i am currently paladin 3 ( ancients oath) and have just got enough o that sweet sweet exp to level to 4. wanted to know peoples opinions/ experience with multi classing a paladin. Should i do it now? wait a few levels? I've been leaning towards warlock or sorc but any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

many thanks

[meleemage]

Any character i build in 5th that isn't full caster i give 2 levels of fighter, one for an extra fighting style, and the second gives you an action surge.

[pwykersotz]

I favor Sorc for Paladin multiclass, but at minimum wait for Extra Attack. My favorite breakpoints are 7 and 11, or 8 and 12 if the feat/asi is critical to your build.

[Mandragola]

As a rule with paladins you want to keep going for a fair number of levels, at least till 5 for the second attack. At that point the +cha to saves at level 6, then resistance to spells at level 7, then ASI at 8, all look really hard to turn down.

So yeah, the first point at which I'd consider multiclassing any paladin is level 9, and maybe still not until level 13 when you've got imp divine smite and the third ASI. I think it's a class that keeps on giving if you solo it, honestly.

[WickerNipple]

So yeah, the first point at which I'd consider multiclassing any paladin is level 9

Just Ancients and Oathbreaker need to stick around that long. Vengeance and Devotion get much less interesting things at lvl 7.

[RulesJD]

Warlock @ lvl 7 if Vengeance

3 Levels of Warlock = 2nd level short rest rechargeable smites. Alternatively, allows for more castings of Bless. Take the Agonizing Blast invocation to be pretty much equal at blasting at range as any other character in the game because EB upscales with Character Level, not class level. EB + Hex = best single target ranged damage dealer from level 11 upward.

Take Devil's Sight for almost on-demand Advantage against enemies without Blindsight/Tremorsense. Be sure to clear this tactic with your party.

Lastly, 3 levels = ~6-8 HP return per kill. YMMV depending on the campaign but this source of in-combat healing amounts to a great sort of qusi-damage reduction without the need to burn your action on a lay on hands.

Fighter 2 is obviously a solid dip for multiclassing as well, giving you a short rest heal + Action surge + another Fighting style. I like versatility in my characters so I prefer multiclassing to something that gives me the best ranged damage cantrip + minor illusion + 3 more cantrips (Guidance, Vicious Mockery, Sacred Flame) + 4 solid spells (Hex, Armor of Aga, Darkness, Mirror Image) + 2 invocation + ritual spells (Find Familiar). Fighter 3 can give you that, but at a pretty steep discount given the last of full casting that an EK receives.

[calebrus]

3 Levels of Warlock = 2nd level short rest rechargeable smites.

Depends on how nice your DM is.
Divine Smite specifies that you use a "paladin spell slot," which means that your DM could easily call out that Pact Magic slots can't be used to smite.
If he's strict with the RAW, then you can't do it.
If he's more lenient, then *maybe* you could.

[WickerNipple]

While we're all selling our favorite Paladin multi-classes, I personally love Tempest Cleric. (Assuming you have enough Wisdom.)

- Wrath of the Storm is a fantastic catch-22 when combined with Sentinel.
- Divine Strike fills in for the loss you take by not getting Improved Divine Smite.
- Spirit Guardians is a truly epic spell in the hands of a Paladin.

[xyianth]

Depends on how nice your DM is.
Divine Smite specifies that you use a "paladin spell slot," which means that your DM could easily call out that Pact Magic slots can't be used to smite.
If he's strict with the RAW, then you can't do it.
If he's more lenient, then *maybe* you could.

Actually, Crawford has confirmed that you can use pact magic slots for the paladin's divine smite ability. (Source (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4168571)) There is no such thing as paladin spell slots anymore, otherwise paladins that multiclass with any caster could no longer smite at all. (the slots become multiclass spellcaster slots) All spell slots from all classes are just spell slots. The only special ones are pact magic spell slots, and the only thing special about them is that they refresh after a short rest.

If your DM is running strict RAW, ignoring designer clarifications, then you can't smite if you multiclass paladin with any caster. (you could smite from daily slots only if multiclassed with warlock) Otherwise, you should be able to smite from any spell slot, including pact magic slots.

[calebrus]

Which is why I said "If he's strict with the RAW, then you can't do it."
By a strict reading of the RAW, Pact Magic slots cannot be used for smites.

A multiclassed Paladin (with a caster other than a Warlock) still has the same spell slots as the ones that his Paladin levels provided, so regular spell slots would be used, just like normal.
But by a strict reading of the RAW Pact Magic slots cannot be used.
I stand by my earlier assessment.

edit:
I'll also add that I would never run a game that way. But that's the way that the words are written, so some DMs *might very well* run their game that way.

[xyianth]

It sounds like we are in vicious agreement concerning the RAW pact magic divine smite interaction :smallsmile:

My reading of the multiclass spellcasting rules on PHB page 164 is that you lose paladin spell slots the moment you gain the spellcasting feature from more than one class. This appears to be different from your reading of the same rules. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but if I am reading it wrong or overlooked something, I would appreciate being corrected. (for my own edification)

Regardless, I agree that I would never run a game this way myself.

[domrek]

Thank's everybody that was really helpful :)

[Maxilian]

I favor Sorc for Paladin multiclass, but at minimum wait for Extra Attack. My favorite breakpoints are 7 and 11, or 8 and 12 if the feat/asi is critical to your build.

THESE!

I personally prefer Sorc for paladin mostly cause it let me play with the idea of a divine warrior of an elemental god

[Maxilian]

Which is why I said "If he's strict with the RAW, then you can't do it."
By a strict reading of the RAW, Pact Magic slots cannot be used for smites.

A multiclassed Paladin (with a caster other than a Warlock) still has the same spell slots as the ones that his Paladin levels provided, so regular spell slots would be used, just like normal.
But by a strict reading of the RAW Pact Magic slots cannot be used.
I stand by my earlier assessment.

edit:
I'll also add that I would never run a game that way. But that's the way that the words are written, so some DMs *might very well* run their game that way.

I understand why it may not be allowed (i mean... one of the main problem with paladins is that as soon as they are out of spell slot they can't use smite again, and there goes most of its damage, but if you allow then to use Pact Magic they will have their smite avaible more often, but i don't know if these will cause a balance problem -i doubt it- but i would understand if a DM don't allow it

[domrek]

THESE!

I personally prefer Sorc for paladin mostly cause it let me play with the idea of a divine warrior of an elemental god

Sounds amazing,
with stats at 16 str
12 dex and 14 in everything else should i be using the ask at 4 for up my cha?

[Spacehamster]

Or go dex based vengence paladin 8 arcane trickster rogue 12. That way you have up to lvl 4 slots for smite AND 6d6 sneak attack. :)

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Or go dex based vengence paladin 8 arcane trickster rogue 12. That way you have up to lvl 4 slots for smite AND 6d6 sneak attack. :)

It's perfectly reasonable builds like this that makes me wonder why Paladins have a STR requirement in multiclassing. IMO both paladins and rangers should have STR or DEX as the requirement, like the fighter.

[calebrus]

It's perfectly reasonable builds like this that makes me wonder why Paladins have a STR requirement in multiclassing. IMO both paladins and rangers should have STR or DEX as the requirement, like the fighter.

They used the Iconic idea of any given class to designate the multiclass requirements. That's why Pally has the Str requirement, Ranger has Dex, etc.