Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded (new thread) [Archive]

ErrantX

2015-02-19, 07:35 PM

Previous thread is too big. So new thread. Go.

Man, is it that time already? It seems like Path of War just happened! For those of you not familiar with the project, the original Path of War introduced a new paradigm of martial combat to Pathfinder by remaking, revamping, and expanding on the maneuver system introduced late in 3.5's run. I'm really happy to say that it's gained a lot of interest and support, and I couldn't be prouder to be involved with the project.

And now it's time to announce (well, technically re-announce but hey, new thread) Path of War Expanded, the first supplementary content for the Path of War line! What's up with Expanded? Just about everything! Path of War built up a super solid foundation with three base classes, new feats, martial disciplines and the new Traditions system, among other things, but it was necessarily lacking in some other ideas. Path of War Expanded will flesh out those gaps with worldbuilding advice, new items and weapons, new feats (including style feats!), new disciplines and additional Traditions. Included as well are three new base classes that combine supernatural prowess with swordsmanship: the Harbinger, Mystic, and Zealot.

What's a new thread without some links and teasers? Not a new thread at all, that's what. So here's some of ours:

- The Harbinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HCtvRArIRPjcClMf5KVJrDBrkV_gBoaVFuvwA4CmCew/edit?usp=sharing), a melee control class that uses superior mobility and crippling status effects to command the battlefield. These warriors understand grief and anger on a personal level and translate that understanding into deadly curses and reality-warping swordplay. Harbinger also has two archetypes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EsgZxSmnr9mwAeZRxHdxZSAS95QeUI0RWQ3F7nm4j38/edit?usp=sharing) available in beta. The Crimson Countess emphasizes the Claim mechanic to take her rage out on her victims, while the Ravenlord creates a shadowy servant that aids him in battle. Harbinger introduces two new disciplines: Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror

- The Zealot (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AbNq6NDkQ84JoacxMb-CxbQKwuXVWTEBpX2cIcNB7iA/edit), a psionic swordsman who leads his party into battle with the power of his passions and their own collective bond. These psionic initiators augment their maneuvers with power points and aid their party members with telepathy. Zealot introduces the Eternal Guardian and Sleeping Goddess disciplines

- The Mystic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-NXNSjsconKLQNhqkt-lS0fZjOXGxns7Nz_Kqg63z3Q/edit?usp=sharing), a melee support class that uses unstable arcane energies to unleash beneficial magic on his allies and scourge his enemies with the power of the elements. Mystics are founts of energy that they vent through martial discipline and intuition rather than through spells. Mystic will introduce the Elemental Flux and Riven Hourglass disciplines. Mystic archetypes can be found here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11F28Ib8Yj74wtAEBzmZrtWqqmc95I6Cbj7U9S2qOfoE/edit?usp=sharing).

But wait, there's more!

- Dreamscarred Press is happy to announce Class Templates, archetypes that can be applied to more than one class. Class Templates represent ideas too broad for a single-class archetype, letting you create very different versions of the same somewhat broad idea. The three introduced in Path of War Expanded are the Bushi, Privateer, and Hussar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hHsiSKoL2nR4oWgzPKQwXfqYENuNkDmBiX323SlTPfc/edit?usp=sharing), for all of your samurai, pirate, and mounted warrior needs. At the end of the document you'll find the Mithral Current discipline as well.

- The Riven Hourglass (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rmHuI_JcLiDJ2_g0jyrP0lQ1a8wyXh-yL4-3njLpnZk/edit) discipline, available for open beta.

- The Elemental Flux discipline (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14BiQj1sEeeEH0Nbyiyf-o0Kg4N5uDM5XwwqeWOJ21dI/edit?usp=sharing) is available for open beta.

- Piercing Thunder (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcQQIp8ZPqmgMQjUWFvoI2qMFE0xdYFKcB0b30xmzFc/edit?usp=sharing) is available for open beta.

- Tempest Gale (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mmEGGV-7j6ZGZqPXblPeY8cPzYtTweDtggVA0kqyAmM/edit?usp=sharing), a new ranged discipline, is now in beta!

- On the agenda: Favored class and racial abilities, traits, more feats, prestige classes, monster stuff, and more!

It's been an amazing ride so far, and the support from the community for this project has been overwhelming and very touching. We couldn't have gotten this far without you guys, and I hope the Path of War line can continue to be an addition to your tables. With that said, I declare this thread to be officially open!

Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing)

All the Feats for Path of War: Expanded! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit?usp=sharing)

Warpaths (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FMI_tbEJHXtejBNgdDtsA09CJHskHnZQZ2N33L2HZ6A/edit?usp=sharing)

the Zealot’s archetypes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dt0LxHWmuPr0e9z5IlnYyf1bXweGONCnwTQDUCThFPU/edit?usp=sharing)

Martial Tradition (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vX5QKzsOgPVoXqSuKdu_INbPz5x7OAL_qbH2aia14xk/edit)

ErrantX

2015-02-19, 07:38 PM

I could really use some feat feedback on those new feats in the Mystic document so we can add those to the primary feat document if they're good enough.

-X

Togath

2015-02-19, 07:39 PM

There is a precedence to this with Stalker, for example. There might be one in the pipe eventually, but not as of yet written. I'm writing a Psi-Mystic and I think Jade has been assigned to write a Mystic archetype.

There's also the bushi and privateer.
But aye, I'm liking everything other than the recharge. Just doesn't resonate as fun with me(especially since the mechanic is hard to do with an online game, and not everyone irl is good at shuffling).

edit: it also seems like it would be hard to use irl, since I at least find to difficult to shuffle small amounts of cards(unless there's a way to use dice that isn't coming to mind).

Doomeye56

2015-02-19, 07:51 PM

The Diverse Training feat seems to benefit the Mystic and Warlord less than the others.
As the receive a smaller bonus (+3) over 20 lvls while the other receive move over that period.
I don't know how that effects the greater working of things or if it really matters in the long run but I figured i'd throw it out there.

Edit: can you do damage to yourself with Animus Healing or is that just fluff?

deuxhero

2015-02-19, 08:07 PM

Why are the style feats still listed in the OP when they are in the feat document?

Hone weapon seems really underwhelming. Improved hone weapon is OK for one feat, but bad for two feats and "hahaha no not ever touching this with a ten foot pole" for three, even when the entire party gets it. Arrows+wheatstone is never answered in PF (I'd go with saying you can do X arrows for 15 minutes of work). It should also say "manufactured weapon" (though natural attacks make sense for races with thumbs to do it, unarmed strikes do not and the damage is weird)

Forrestfire

2015-02-19, 08:10 PM

I've gotta say that I'm really glad to see a Crusader Recovery mechanic in Path of War. I always saw it as one of the most unique and fluffy mechanics in 3.5, and it's good to have it back.

EDIT: And having skimmed through to the feats, I also need to express my horror at the existence of the Hone Weapon and Improved Hone Weapon feats. For one, they're pretty terrible feats (+1d4/1d6 at the cost of two/three feats and a skill point tax? What's up with that), and also, they're something that you really shouldn't need a feat for. This is the sort of thing that many people complained about with 3.5, where they'd introduce feats or options for things, and automatically invalidate anyone doing it without the feat. Remember Research? All that feat did was let you do research in a library. However, because of the way exception-based rulesets work, its existence invalidated anyone without the feat doing research.

These feats do the same thing. Because they exist, you need them to be able to sharpen your weapon well... On top of the feats themselves being underwhelming. I think that that's terrible design.

EDIT2: Maybe if it was "you're supernaturally good at sharpening your weapon" instead of "you can sharpen your weapon," it'd be neat. And maybe if it was any good. And didn't require Skill Focus (Weaponsmithing), which is a taxier tax than Weapon Focus, somehow. Or was a skill trick.

Tempestfury

2015-02-19, 08:27 PM

I could really use some feat feedback on those new feats in the Mystic document so we can add those to the primary feat document if they're good enough.

-X

I did leave some feedback...

I do admit however, that the honed weapon feat is something I like. I don't think it should require Skill Focus however, and I think it should scale with your ranks (maybe you have +1d4 damage for every 3 ranks in weaponsmithing? With Improved increasing that to d6). Otherwise, its a pretty neat feat that I enjoy the look of, but I'm not sure if I would actually ever take it. Especially not with the silly Skill Focus requirement

These feats do the same thing. Because they exist, you need them to be able to sharpen your weapon... On top of the feats themselves being underwhelming. I think that that's terrible design.

Is there any other way to actually sharpen your weapon? And they can always add 'these improve normal means of sharpening a weapon' or something. Honestly though looking at it, I find it strange that its a random factor of damage for a sharpened weapon, and not a flat one. A sharper sword is gonna hurt the same no matter how you hit. So why the random? Not to mention it doesn't stack with critical hits if its bonus dice.

Ssalarn

2015-02-19, 08:27 PM

Didn't get to say it in the other thread, but add me to the list of people excited to see the Crusader recovery mechanic revamped and reintroduced.

deuxhero

2015-02-19, 08:28 PM

Also it's "weapons" not "weaponsmith". One's a skill, the other is a biological function and/or years of apprenticeship.

Lord_Gareth

2015-02-19, 08:41 PM

I'm alive! And posting in this thread again!

Steel Serpent tradition will happen as soon as I figure one out.

PsyBomb

2015-02-19, 08:43 PM

I am actually pro-Crusader Mechanic. The fun there was always in figuring out what to do with what becomes available. Just make sure to put a sidebar up on how to bookkeep for it.

Hone Weapon needs to drop Skill Focus, and note that this honing is "above and beyond what every other blades an does"

malonkey1

2015-02-19, 08:58 PM

I am actually pro-Crusader Mechanic.

As am I, but perhaps, a modification to help both sides be happy...The players chooses his first 2 granted maneuvers, then they're granted at random from what remains? Then you can have a pair of maneuvers you need to have right now ready, while still having some of that randomness. When the maneuvers start over, you choose the first 2 again, and so on.

Vhaidara

2015-02-19, 08:59 PM

Okay, after reading a bit more, Blade Meditation is interesting. Though since it costs an action, I would prefer if they got to choose one of the maneuvers they were granted. I do also feel that it should just be part of their maneuver recovery, rather than a separate ability

I feel Instant Enlightenment should come online sooner. Level 10 is very late to be able to say "I need this maneuver"

Looking at the runes, I feel that the various resistance/damage ones should be condensed. Have an Elemental Shield and an Elemental Blade rune that key to the element you have when you place them (or when they activate)

Dead Steel, while flavorful, works on wooden weapons.

I second the idea that Hone Weapon gives next to no reward for the investment of 3 feats, one of which is an absolutely blatant tax.

Togath

2015-02-19, 09:01 PM

As am I, but perhaps, a modification to help both sides be happy...The players chooses his first 2 granted maneuvers, then they're granted at random from what remains? Then you can have a pair of maneuvers you need to have right now ready, while still having some of that randomness. When the maneuvers start over, you choose the first 2 again, and so on.

I could've sworn that was already how it worked.:smallconfused:

And as I've said, there are some issues with it beyond it just being random, it's hard to keep track of, virtually unusable in online games(at least from my experience, virtual customizable and easy to use decks seem uncommon, if they exist at all), and even in irl games it requires skill at shuffling cards(and is still a pain to keep track of).

deuxhero

2015-02-19, 09:11 PM

Online games do allow arbitrary die, so you could just roll a d7/ect as needed.

Dead Steel could be changed to "creatures harmed by negative energy" and not "living creatures", as it would damage dhampirs, black blood oracles and some others the way it is now.

Brilliant aura should be "a bright aura".

Ssalarn

2015-02-19, 09:11 PM

Hone Weapon needs to drop Skill Focus, and note that this honing is "above and beyond what every other blades an does"

I've said it before and I'll say it again "Too much 'add more damage', not enough 'everything else'". How about instead of Hone Weapon adding damage, it instead causes the weapon to deal damage to other weapons that are used in sunder attempts against it, or when used in a sunder or disarm attempt it also causes freely bleeding wounds that give the wielder a penalty to CMD against further sunder or disarm attempts?

deuxhero

2015-02-19, 09:13 PM

Then it depends on someone using sunder.

Powerdork

2015-02-19, 09:14 PM

I could've sworn that was already how it worked.:smallconfused:
No, the two maneuvers granted at the /beginning/ of the fight, or when you exhaust all your maneuvers, are random. This is a request for them not to be.

And as I've said, there are some issues with it beyond it just being random, it's hard to keep track of, virtually unusable in online games(at least from my experience, virtual customizable and easy to use decks seem uncommon, if they exist at all), and even in irl games it requires skill at shuffling cards(and is still a pain to keep track of).

Roll dice, then. Assign numbers to the maneuvers that are withheld, and roll a die any time you'd be granted a maneuver.
Or use playing cards as proxies, and practice.

stack

2015-02-19, 09:15 PM

Additional bonuses to sunder and disarm are pretty niche though.

Milo v3

2015-02-19, 09:18 PM

It says exceptional ability rather than extraordinary in Spell Dodge, the wording of Runes and Sigils should probably be cleaned up somehow, and I'm not sure I like having to print out tonnes of cards just to use a class. It's very flavourful, but abit annoying and I'm unsure how it'd work with online play.

Also, there is already whetstone rules.

Powerdork

2015-02-19, 09:19 PM

deuxhero

2015-02-19, 09:21 PM

Ferrous Shell is unrestrictive but has an ACP? Pathfinder gives "Armor interferes with the gestures", unlike DSA's metal doing the disrupting.

It's also barely better than the all day mage armor the mage had at level 1 and requires an in combat action.

Ssalarn

2015-02-19, 09:22 PM

Then it depends on someone using sunder.

My first suggestion was reactive, but the second was proactive (and had the added benefit of encouraging dynamic combat outside of just hitting things).

You could even make it deal actual bleed damage, where each successive attempt at disarming or sundering someone's weapon causes a point of stacking bleed damage, and each point of bleed damage inflicted in this way causes a corresponding penalty to CMD against the next attempt; either you eventually manage to actually take away their weapon, or you bleed them out.

Taveena

2015-02-19, 09:23 PM

ALRIGHT. A lot here to get through!

The fluff! Okay, cool, it's a sorceror who really wanted to smack people in the face with their magic because Bloodrager was still too esoteric. I can get behind that.

Proficiency! Yeah, after hearing about Elemental Flux I'm going to view EVERYTHING through the vein of WoW's shaman. And they have the exact same proficiencies as there. ALRIGHTY THEN.

Maneuvers... looks about right. I'll admit, I'm a little disappointed Thrashing Dragon isn't on there, but I could always take a trait or tradition for that.

MANEUVER RECOVERY WOOOO. I'm super excited for the Crusader recovery mechanic - actionless recovery in exchange for randomness always seemed really cool to me and I'm super glad to have it return.

Animus... Hrm. It seems potentially cool, but I'm a little on edge about double resource tracking. It's relatively simple, at least.

Blade Meditation. Not exciting, but appropriate, and necessary from PoW's design standpoint.

Elemental Attunement! Neat. Doesn't do much by itself but still.

RUNES AND SIGILS: Okay, this is a little weird. Mostly because now we have Runes, Counters, AND Boosts competing for the swift action. It might feel a little crowded.

Bonus Feats. Exciting. (Not complaining, but not gonna get anyone hyped for the class.)

Martial Craftsman! Cool. Makes sense. Maybe allow Item Creation feats to be chosen as bonus feats?

Sorcerous Step! In combat, awesome. Out of combat... you really have to spend a MINUTE? You could make a climb check to get there in that time. Maybe instead force them to WAIT a minute afterwards, rather than charging up for a minute. Because a 30 ft teleport after a minute of charge time... not exactly overwhelming.

Spell Dodge: Evasion but more fun!
Admittedly it's hilarious that you're encouraged to stand in the fire to generate anima.

Arcane Defense: Eh. Not bad but not exciting, either.

Improved Sorcerous Step: Not sure what to think of this. Shouldn't it still be a Swift out of combat?

Instant Enlightenment: Cool. Versatility.

Quell Magic: So it just has to be magical? So you could use it to suppress Bardic Music or the like?

Font of Animus: Should say 'refining withing you', I assume. Otherwise, neat, but I'd personally allow it to be used at a lower level, maybe scaling up.

Runic Singularity: And finally the swift action issue stops being a problem. Still, it's a long time to wait and most people won't get to see this.

Too many sigils and runes to go over at the moment, but for the feats... Yeah, Hone Weapon is mediocre and with an awful feat tax. Diverse Training makes me very happy, though - but the whitelist makes it a little awkward, due to classes like the Pharaoh which haven't been released yet. Personally I'd let them pick any class with maneuvers as a class feature, rather than restricting it to those 6.

deuxhero

2015-02-19, 09:31 PM

Mystic's manuver recovery means they struggle with martial prestige classes.Tying the number to total maneuvers readied completely (they already gain new usable manuvers the same level they gain new readied ones) would also stop Extra Readied Maneuver from making mystics worse.

Milo v3

2015-02-19, 09:36 PM

Anima Mystic is abit hard to read through, because it's hard to identify exactly what aspects of changed initially.

Also for some reason the runic mysteries base their DC's off wisdom when it should be charisma.

Doomeye56

2015-02-19, 09:36 PM

deuxhero

2015-02-19, 09:45 PM

Are initiating classes with Sleeping Goddess maneuvers known "psionic class(es)" for determining psicrystal abilities, replacing racial Wild Talent with Psionic Talent and having a psionic aura under Detect Psionics? Zealot is a clearly a psionic class either way but anyone can get maneuvers known through tradition.

Doomeye56

2015-02-19, 09:58 PM

Improved Sorcerous Step becomes kinda lack luster with the lesser version being able to be used out of combat. Maybe allow the use of a boost during the same swift action?

Magical Aptitude seems like kinda of crappy feat tax for Elements as One and Extended Runes and Sigils

RedOndjage

2015-02-19, 10:08 PM

I really, really like this class overall. However, I agree with a lot of the other people in the thread that the recovery mechanic is too random. I'd prefer it if it were changed to either 1) Always pick first two maneuvers when your maneuvers refresh, or 2) pick first two maneuvers when you use blade meditation. Even if this pick two mechanic was introduced via feat, it would be nice. Out of the two, I think I prefer the latter because it's the closest to what Errantx is trying to do with the class. I think that's the perfect compromise between randomness and getting that maneuver or two that you NEED, because a dragon/lich/tarrasque is going to eat your face.

ghanjrho

2015-02-19, 10:22 PM

I'd simplify number of maneuvers granted to half your readied, to avoid clashing with prestige classes. It already follows that value, but it would good to spell it out.

Diverse Training could stand to be rewritten to avoid whitelist issues. I'd probably leave the class features in whitelist form, and just reprint the feat every time you add more (primary) initiators. Also is a VERY powerful feat.

Corpse Strength should probably be a different bonus type (enhancement is thick on the ground at that level. Profane could serve as a good replacement)

Improved Blade Meditation does not need the animus tax.

Doomeye56

2015-02-19, 10:28 PM

Diverse Training is good but i wouldn't say VERY powerful. It promotes multiclassing that Pathfinder design works against.

I like it because I love multiclassing.

Vhaidara

2015-02-19, 10:31 PM

Holy cow I missed that. I think all of my high level warders will now be dipping Harbinger. 3 levels with access to good utility disciplines for half Int mod to hit, basic Dark Focus (which can be used on non-harbinger disciplines), fast movement, swift action movement, and extra movement modes (flight+teleportation)? This sounds perfect.

Lord_Gareth

2015-02-19, 10:34 PM

Vhaidara

2015-02-19, 10:38 PM

Doomeye56

2015-02-19, 10:42 PM

Huh? It currently does improve Grim News. That's why you get the movement modes.

Unless you meant it the other way around. Which, to be honest, is even scarier since you don't have to pick Harbinger disciplines for Dark Focus. You would basically be handing anyone who dipped 2 levels of Harbinger and paid a feat tax the full benefits of Dark Focus.

It did improve dark focus, it seems it been changed recently. The same should also be done for the stalkers Combat Insight as it is alot gain for a 2 lvl dip and a feat

Togath

2015-02-19, 11:22 PM

Regarding alternate maneuver recovery methods, what about something like this?(currently written in the style of an archetype, since I was writing one up when I came up with these ideas);

Maneuvers Readied: A [archetype] readies 1 less maneuver than a normal Mystic. Unlike a normal Mystic, A [archetype] starts combat with all of her readied maneuvers available.

This alters the Mystic's readied maneuvers.

Maneuver Recovery: A [archetype] does receive the same flashes of insight as a normal Mystic, and may recovery 1 maneuver by meditating as a standard action. If she has readied maneuvers from the Elemental Flux discipline she may also change her active element as part of this action.
A [archetype] may recover a number of maneuvers equal to her charisma modifier(minimum of 2) by making a full attack action. All of the attacks made as part of this action suffer a -2 penalty to hit, but each attack deals extra damage equal to the [archetype]'s charisma modifier(minimum of 1 extra damage), of the same type as her elemental attunement.

This replaces the Mystic's maneuver recovery method and her blade meditation ability.

Instant Enlightenment(Ex): Starting at 10th level a [archetype] is capable of drawing deep on her training to guide the untapped energies within herself to instantly change her prepared tactics. Once per day, She may instantly replace a readied maneuver with a known maneuver that she does not have readied. She may use this ability a second time per day at 14th level and a third time per day at 18th level.

This alters the Mystic's instant enlightenment ability.

Chris Robin R2

2015-02-20, 12:18 AM

Am I reading this wrong? It says your maneuvers refresh when you can't be granted a new withheld one, but it doesn't say you have to have expended them all. So it looks like you lose access to any you haven't used yet as they go back into the withheld pool and doled out at random again.

Also, what happens when you use Redirecting Flux on say, Fireball? Is the entire thing redirected or just the damage you'd take?

The Glyphstone

2015-02-20, 12:30 AM

What document is Diverse Training in?

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 12:42 AM

Quick review:
Mystic recovery mechanic is bad.
1) No control over it.
2) Warps your maneuver list. Rather than having maneuvers dedicated to situations (Acting in a surprise round from Riven Horuglass, for example), you can no longer gain use out of those maneuvers due to how your selection and recovery works. Instead of choosing situational maneuvers, you will instead focus on taking maneuvers that are 'of equal value' to one another, meaning you'll see a lot of maneuvers in your pool that are for your attack actions, rather than strange things like Thrashing Dragon jump boost or even Elemental Flux's "Embrace Element.", Maneuvers you wouldn't ready if you knew you were going up against, say, a non-magical foe.
3) Cumbersome. Having to make 3x5 cards, assigning maneuvers to dice rolls, however you determine your random mechanic is just a pain in the ass. While you may be able to hammer out something in real life, Online tabletop games will have their own amount of issues with it.
4) Seems to be there for the sake of "We brought back the Crusader mechanic!" rather than something that gels with the class. Warlord takes risks. Warden protects friends. Harbinger is murder-go-lucky. Their recovery mechanics reflect their class. Mystic, and especially Elemental Flux, seems more planned (I can use my Fire active element up to this point, then swap into Air to help out my friend...), but their recovery mechanic goes the complete opposite way in the idea of 'planning'
5) Animus helps cover for that, but see my post about Elemental Attunement.

Honed Edge.
I would never, ever, EVER, EVER take Hone weapon or it's improved variant. 1d4 damage for the encounter is not worth dropping two feats(Skill focus) and skill points(3 of them!) into. It's a neat idea to be certain, but it's too expensive, especially when my feats are limited, and 1d4 damage (1d6 for a second feat) is going to quickly drop off as the game continues in levels, and is hardly worth it at level 3. This could be really good as a stand alone item, not two-three feats worth.
(Side note, will we see Path of War specific items, or just 'Nice things for martials the items'?)

Elemental Flux active element.
Standard action is pretty killer when it comes to swapping out to different elements, breaking up the flow with no immediate benefit. Perhaps moving into an active element could grant some immediate, one turn bonus so you're turn isn't "I move, swap elements." Feat support would be good here. Attunement is nice, but...

Elemental Attunement.
Zealot can lose Sleeping Goddess. Harbinger can lose Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror. Warder can lose Iron tortoise. Each class can lose their 'core' discipline, but Mystic is unnaturally attached to theirs with this class feature. If you're not a Mystic and buy into it, you have a weaker set. If you're a Mystic and buy out of it, you have a dead class feature.

Rune/Sigils
They're basically class specific boosts. This covers nicely for the Mystic's recovery mechanic, allowing you to forego grabbing those maneuvers so your random recovery will 'select' better maneuvers, but they do clash with the boosts sets of maneuvers. This is something I like, but there's something wrong with it that I can't put my finger on. I'll come back to it when I figure that out. Also lacks a water/acid rune in the first tier. Weird subset of necromancy runes, I feel like these could be cut and grouped together for a class archetype.

I'll do a write up for Elemental Flux when I actually wake up, but the Tier 9 is lackluster, especially compared to other Tier 9s. Scarlet throne is the closest to it, and is a head above and a step ahead of the Elemental Flux tier 9.

Taveena

2015-02-20, 12:52 AM

Ssalarn

2015-02-20, 01:08 AM

The massive advantage OF the Crusader-esque recovery mechanic is that unlike every other initiator, it can be done without spending ANY actions. You can get off a boost/counter and a strike every turn without any action competition that you might have if you were ANY other class. If it had a maneuver recovery mechanic that required an action, then between that, Sigils, and actual boosts/strikes, it would be incredibly action-starved.

Word. I also think the recovery mechanic is perfect for the kind of "martial wild magic caster" thing the class has going on.

It makes your combat planning a little more meta, in that you're planning your tactics as much during character creation and leveling as in-game, but I'm okay with that.

Doomeye56

2015-02-20, 01:20 AM

What document is Diverse Training in?

Its in the Mystic document along with the some other new feats.

Eox

2015-02-20, 01:23 AM

I really want to like the Anima Mystic but I'm going to have to understand it first. Nimbus, Blaze and the like are always on, yeah? What kind of action is it to swap between Runic Mysteries, can it be done in combat? Are Runic Mysteries subject to the modifier switch under Maneuvers?

I really like the concept but it seems oddly edited.

edit: Also a fun bit of weirdness: if you've got a psion buddy who's got Cold Resistance of at least 12, you can throw a Cold Throne rune on them to make them invincible for a period while keeping their ability to manifest.

RedOndjage

2015-02-20, 01:47 AM

I have a couple of questions about Elements as One: 1) It specifically refers to the way that Mystics change their active element. Does this mean that only Mystics can use it, or could another initiating class that meets the prereqs (through archetypes/traits/martial traditions) also make use of it? 2) The text says you hold all four elements at once and can switch freely between them. Does that mean that the stances that give elements based on active element give you the benefits of all four elements? Because that seems really good for one feat and almost mandatory to get the full benefit out of Elemental Flux. Or, does it let you switch between elemental attunements as a free action (seems to imply this by the ability to "switch freely between them" line).

Nyaa

2015-02-20, 03:13 AM

Idiot Mystic looks not possible ATM as Idiot Crusader relies on shaky interpretation of rules for initiator PRCs that seem to be missing from PoW1 (as there is no Mystic there), and I don't think there's publicly available "systems and use" chapter of PoW2. Namely the bit when gaining maneuver readied through PRC for Crusader also adds one maneuver granted.

Text says Mystic 1 knows three runes, but there is only one rune in the table.

Burning Weapon sounds like a sigil, not a rune.
Actually, there are a lot of them. Aren't runes supposed to be used on enemies and blow up when said enemy is struck, and sigils used on allies to buff them?

Eldritch Consumption - I have a gut feeling it can be used to get (almost) single-target magic immunity.
Elemental Vortex Attack - doesn't allow a save for earth effect.
Eldritch Energy Hammer - typo "A disciple of the Eldritch Flux". Also uses IL, not spellcraft like Eldritch Consumption.
Eldritch Fang Flurry - no bonus damage?

I guess I had my hopes too high. I don't like anything about Mystic, and really hate Crusader recovery mechanics. Elemental Flux is overall meh with an exception of awesome stances. Every initiator I build will consider two to four Advanced Study to get them.

Anima Mystic looks interesting though. However, it doesn't explicitly state the action of activating a mystery, nor that you can only have one mystery active (you have to read to the capstone to figure it out).

Raging Storm nimbus - "once per kid"?

Prime32

2015-02-20, 06:08 AM

Maybe if it was "you're supernaturally good at sharpening your weapon" instead of "you can sharpen your weapon," it'd be neat. And maybe if it was any good. And didn't require Skill Focus (Weaponsmithing), which is a taxier tax than Weapon Focus, somehow. Or was a skill trick.I'd be inclined towards just making it a new use of the Craft skill. Use the feats for outright supernatural things like making your weapons strike as magic/ghost touch/whatever, or maybe sharpening them so well that they strike as adamantine - thrown weapon users will love them.

RUNES AND SIGILS: Okay, this is a little weird. Mostly because now we have Runes, Counters, AND Boosts competing for the swift action. It might feel a little crowded.Hmm... what if they got the ability to change stance as a free action 1/round? It fits the chaotic, flowing nature of their maneuvers.

Sorcerous Step! In combat, awesome. Out of combat... you really have to spend a MINUTE? You could make a climb check to get there in that time. Maybe instead force them to WAIT a minute afterwards, rather than charging up for a minute. Because a 30 ft teleport after a minute of charge time... not exactly overwhelming.

Improved Sorcerous Step: Not sure what to think of this. Shouldn't it still be a Swift out of combat?Yeah, the difference between a Swift and a Move is negligible out of combat.

Rather than all these restrictions, I recommend making the basic Step into "move up to your speed in a straight line without provoking AoOs", while keeping the Improved version as a teleport.

Milo v3

2015-02-20, 07:02 AM

Here are the current PF rules for whetstones:

Honing a blade with a whetstone requires about 15 minutes of work and grants the weapon a +1 bonus on your damage roll the first time you hit with it. This only works on nonmagical blades.

So obviously the first use of such a feat would be to let you do it on magical blades, but obviously it can't just be letting you hone magical blades because that's a tiny benefit.

Mathias1313

2015-02-20, 09:33 AM

Hello, love all the work Dreamscarred Press has been doing. Ty so much for continued excellence.

I wanted to give my 2 cents worth about the Mystic.

1)Maneuvers Readied: Do they all have to be random? Cant we have the 2 we start with as chosen by us and then have all the rest as random. That would give us some control and still maintain randomness.

2)Blade Meditation: I.. don't like the name. It just doesn't fit with the rest of the class, nor with the description of the ability

3)Runes and Sigils: Could this be changed to a move action? I never liked the idea that there were no Maneuvers that used move actions and would still make you take tough decisions.

4)Font of Animus: Why limit it to 1/day? Its a 19th lvl ability and forces you to give up your move action and take damage. I see no reason to limit it to 1/day. If you think the 1d6+wisdom is too much for at will then I would suggest limit it to just 1d6 or the Wisdom.

5)Arcane Defense: Could we maybe get this bonus added to our touch AC vs magical spells, spell-like abilities, and psionic powers as well?

Maneuvers:
Is there a reason that a lot of the damage you do jumps between d4 and d6? I could understand if any of the Force damage you did was dropped to d4 but a lot of your elemental damage varies between the die sizes.

Also, I see no point to Static Strike, which does 2d4 damage when I can take Variable Flux which is exactly the same but does 1d6 and adds an effect.

Feats:
Hone weapon.... I think you have been advised enough that this feat chain is not an option for anyone.

Elements as One: this says you count all 4 elements as your active but then says you may switch between them, which sounds.... opposite to each other. Perhaps just say that as a free action(that may be taken on anothers turn as well) you change which element is your active.

Can we just remove the feat tax of Magical Aptitude? It just seems pointless. Just give a feat like a skill point requirement or something. feats are precious.

Just as some suggestions:
-Could we maybe have a low lvl Stance that allowed us to use our active energy type as a ranged attack that is usable with iteratives? Say like something with a 30ft range or range increment and that deals 1d4 energy damage as a touch attack that functions with BaB. Or maybe make it part of the class itself to make it more unique?
-This idea is more for all the PoW stuff. Could there be a feat or something that allows a class ability that has been replaced to still counts as its original. As an example, The sworn protector replaces Aegis with Guardianship. It would be cool if we could take Diverse training and have it still apply to Guardianship.

Well that's all my thoughts for now. I hope any of the above is usefull. :)
Thanks again for all the amazing work.

ErrantX

2015-02-20, 10:47 AM

Okay, let's do this.

Okay, after reading a bit more, Blade Meditation is interesting. Though since it costs an action, I would prefer if they got to choose one of the maneuvers they were granted. I do also feel that it should just be part of their maneuver recovery, rather than a separate ability

I feel Instant Enlightenment should come online sooner. Level 10 is very late to be able to say "I need this maneuver"

Looking at the runes, I feel that the various resistance/damage ones should be condensed. Have an Elemental Shield and an Elemental Blade rune that key to the element you have when you place them (or when they activate)

Dead Steel, while flavorful, works on wooden weapons.

I second the idea that Hone Weapon gives next to no reward for the investment of 3 feats, one of which is an absolutely blatant tax.

Blade meditation is more or less part of the maneuver recovery in the sense that it’s a way to actively perform a maneuver refresh, but it does need a call out as a different ability as it alters the way standard auto-recovery works.

I put it in later as a way of showing that you’ve learned to tame some of this inherent wildness and can sometimes use it to your advantage.

I split them up in case someone wanted to have a theme; that’s part of where anima mystic comes in as well.

I fail to see your point on wooden weapons. It’s just a name for the ability.

Hone is getting a rewrite; I want the ability, but I was being extremely conservative to begin with on it.

Online games do allow arbitrary die, so you could just roll a d7/ect as needed.

Dead Steel could be changed to "creatures harmed by negative energy" and not "living creatures", as it would damage dhampirs, black blood oracles and some others the way it is now.

Brilliant aura should be "a bright aura".

Mmmkay on Dead Steel and thanks for that catch.

I've said it before and I'll say it again "Too much 'add more damage', not enough 'everything else'". How about instead of Hone Weapon adding damage, it instead causes the weapon to deal damage to other weapons that are used in sunder attempts against it, or when used in a sunder or disarm attempt it also causes freely bleeding wounds that give the wielder a penalty to CMD against further sunder or disarm attempts?

I don’t understand how sharpening a weapon does anything to hard steel or wood other than break it; a blunter weapon would be better at sundering. And even then, how would sundering a weapon with a really sharp one inflict bleeding wounds?

Ferrous Shell is unrestrictive but has an ACP? Pathfinder gives "Armor interferes with the gestures", unlike DSA's metal doing the disrupting.

It's also barely better than the all day mage armor the mage had at level 1 and requires an in combat action.

It does not have an ACP, it has ASF.

ALRIGHT. A lot here to get through!

The fluff! Okay, cool, it's a sorceror who really wanted to smack people in the face with their magic because Bloodrager was still too esoteric. I can get behind that.

Proficiency! Yeah, after hearing about Elemental Flux I'm going to view EVERYTHING through the vein of WoW's shaman. And they have the exact same proficiencies as there. ALRIGHTY THEN.

Maneuvers... looks about right. I'll admit, I'm a little disappointed Thrashing Dragon isn't on there, but I could always take a trait or tradition for that.

MANEUVER RECOVERY WOOOO. I'm super excited for the Crusader recovery mechanic - actionless recovery in exchange for randomness always seemed really cool to me and I'm super glad to have it return.

Animus... Hrm. It seems potentially cool, but I'm a little on edge about double resource tracking. It's relatively simple, at least.

Blade Meditation. Not exciting, but appropriate, and necessary from PoW's design standpoint.

Elemental Attunement! Neat. Doesn't do much by itself but still.

RUNES AND SIGILS: Okay, this is a little weird. Mostly because now we have Runes, Counters, AND Boosts competing for the swift action. It might feel a little crowded.

Bonus Feats. Exciting. (Not complaining, but not gonna get anyone hyped for the class.)

Martial Craftsman! Cool. Makes sense. Maybe allow Item Creation feats to be chosen as bonus feats?

Sorcerous Step! In combat, awesome. Out of combat... you really have to spend a MINUTE? You could make a climb check to get there in that time. Maybe instead force them to WAIT a minute afterwards, rather than charging up for a minute. Because a 30 ft teleport after a minute of charge time... not exactly overwhelming.

Spell Dodge: Evasion but more fun!
Admittedly it's hilarious that you're encouraged to stand in the fire to generate anima.

Arcane Defense: Eh. Not bad but not exciting, either.

Improved Sorcerous Step: Not sure what to think of this. Shouldn't it still be a Swift out of combat?

Instant Enlightenment: Cool. Versatility.

Quell Magic: So it just has to be magical? So you could use it to suppress Bardic Music or the like?

Font of Animus: Should say 'refining withing you', I assume. Otherwise, neat, but I'd personally allow it to be used at a lower level, maybe scaling up.

Runic Singularity: And finally the swift action issue stops being a problem. Still, it's a long time to wait and most people won't get to see this.

Too many sigils and runes to go over at the moment, but for the feats... Yeah, Hone Weapon is mediocre and with an awful feat tax. Diverse Training makes me very happy, though - but the whitelist makes it a little awkward, due to classes like the Pharaoh which haven't been released yet. Personally I'd let them pick any class with maneuvers as a class feature, rather than restricting it to those 6.

I appreciate the praise, thank you! To address the issues:

I’ll tweak Sorcererous Step, Quell Magic only effects spells, so I’ll have to clear that up. Diverse training for Pharoah… honestly, I know very little about that class right now as I’ve not looked at it in a long while. I’ll have to tweak the wording on it perhaps. I don’t want “any class with maneuvers” because that includes maneuver-using archetypes for non-martial classes, and I want the disciples to have a more special place as the masters of maneuvers.

Mystic's manuver recovery means they struggle with martial prestige classes.Tying the number to total maneuvers readied completely (they already gain new usable manuvers the same level they gain new readied ones) would also stop Extra Readied Maneuver from making mystics worse.

Could you explain further on this? Gaining new readied maneuvers means exactly that, you gain an additional readied maneuver. It doesn’t grant you anything. I should put in a feat for extra granted maneuver, but just means you can ready another maneuver.

Anima Mystic is abit hard to read through, because it's hard to identify exactly what aspects of changed initially.

Also for some reason the runic mysteries base their DC's off wisdom when it should be charisma.

I’ll clear that up, thank you!

Improved Sorcerous Step becomes kinda lack luster with the lesser version being able to be used out of combat. Maybe allow the use of a boost during the same swift action?

Magical Aptitude seems like kinda of crappy feat tax for Elements as One and Extended Runes and Sigils

Sorry that you feel that way, I feel that it’s appropriate feat tax as it gives bonuses to Spellcraft and UMD, which fit for mastering different ways to use your class abilities.

I really, really like this class overall. However, I agree with a lot of the other people in the thread that the recovery mechanic is too random. I'd prefer it if it were changed to either 1) Always pick first two maneuvers when your maneuvers refresh, or 2) pick first two maneuvers when you use blade meditation. Even if this pick two mechanic was introduced via feat, it would be nice. Out of the two, I think I prefer the latter because it's the closest to what Errantx is trying to do with the class. I think that's the perfect compromise between randomness and getting that maneuver or two that you NEED, because a dragon/lich/tarrasque is going to eat your face.

Thank you for your praise on the class! Random is what I’m going for here, so I’m sorry you don’t approve of the recovery mechanic. As I’ve said, I’ll entertain some ideas to reduce it some, but I’m keeping the ‘Sader’s mechanic in this class. There may also be an archetype that swaps it up, but again, that’s not decided yet.

I'd simplify number of maneuvers granted to half your readied, to avoid clashing with prestige classes. It already follows that value, but it would good to spell it out.

Diverse Training could stand to be rewritten to avoid whitelist issues. I'd probably leave the class features in whitelist form, and just reprint the feat every time you add more (primary) initiators. Also is a VERY powerful feat.

Corpse Strength should probably be a different bonus type (enhancement is thick on the ground at that level. Profane could serve as a good replacement)

Improved Blade Meditation does not need the animus tax.

It might be good to spell it out, you’re right. Probably a sidebar call out.

Diverse Training has some issues, and I’d appreciate insight as to how to tighten wording up.

Profane’s not a bad call, but I worry that it’s too evil ya know?

Why do you feel it does not need the animus tax?

Diverse Training is good but i wouldn't say VERY powerful. It promotes multiclassing that Pathfinder design works against.

I like it because I love multiclassing.

I think multiclassing has a reason to exist and needs support. Thanks! :)

Am I reading this wrong? It says your maneuvers refresh when you can't be granted a new withheld one, but it doesn't say you have to have expended them all. So it looks like you lose access to any you haven't used yet as they go back into the withheld pool and doled out at random again.

Also, what happens when you use Redirecting Flux on say, Fireball? Is the entire thing redirected or just the damage you'd take?

That’s right, when you’re effectively done drawing new maneuvers, and there isn’t another one to pull, it resets the cycle to start position.

You can’t be targeted by a fireball; it’s an area of effect spell. You could redirect a scorching ray or a ray of exhaustion however.

Quick review:
Mystic recovery mechanic is bad.
1) No control over it.
2) Warps your maneuver list. Rather than having maneuvers dedicated to situations (Acting in a surprise round from Riven Horuglass, for example), you can no longer gain use out of those maneuvers due to how your selection and recovery works. Instead of choosing situational maneuvers, you will instead focus on taking maneuvers that are 'of equal value' to one another, meaning you'll see a lot of maneuvers in your pool that are for your attack actions, rather than strange things like Thrashing Dragon jump boost or even Elemental Flux's "Embrace Element.", Maneuvers you wouldn't ready if you knew you were going up against, say, a non-magical foe.
3) Cumbersome. Having to make 3x5 cards, assigning maneuvers to dice rolls, however you determine your random mechanic is just a pain in the ass. While you may be able to hammer out something in real life, Online tabletop games will have their own amount of issues with it.
4) Seems to be there for the sake of "We brought back the Crusader mechanic!" rather than something that gels with the class. Warlord takes risks. Warden protects friends. Harbinger is murder-go-lucky. Their recovery mechanics reflect their class. Mystic, and especially Elemental Flux, seems more planned (I can use my Fire active element up to this point, then swap into Air to help out my friend...), but their recovery mechanic goes the complete opposite way in the idea of 'planning'
5) Animus helps cover for that, but see my post about Elemental Attunement.

Honed Edge.
I would never, ever, EVER, EVER take Hone weapon or it's improved variant. 1d4 damage for the encounter is not worth dropping two feats(Skill focus) and skill points(3 of them!) into. It's a neat idea to be certain, but it's too expensive, especially when my feats are limited, and 1d4 damage (1d6 for a second feat) is going to quickly drop off as the game continues in levels, and is hardly worth it at level 3. This could be really good as a stand alone item, not two-three feats worth.
(Side note, will we see Path of War specific items, or just 'Nice things for martials the items'?)

Elemental Flux active element.
Standard action is pretty killer when it comes to swapping out to different elements, breaking up the flow with no immediate benefit. Perhaps moving into an active element could grant some immediate, one turn bonus so you're turn isn't "I move, swap elements." Feat support would be good here. Attunement is nice, but...

Elemental Attunement.
Zealot can lose Sleeping Goddess. Harbinger can lose Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror. Warder can lose Iron tortoise. Each class can lose their 'core' discipline, but Mystic is unnaturally attached to theirs with this class feature. If you're not a Mystic and buy into it, you have a weaker set. If you're a Mystic and buy out of it, you have a dead class feature.

Rune/Sigils
They're basically class specific boosts. This covers nicely for the Mystic's recovery mechanic, allowing you to forego grabbing those maneuvers so your random recovery will 'select' better maneuvers, but they do clash with the boosts sets of maneuvers. This is something I like, but there's something wrong with it that I can't put my finger on. I'll come back to it when I figure that out. Also lacks a water/acid rune in the first tier. Weird subset of necromancy runes, I feel like these could be cut and grouped together for a class archetype.

I'll do a write up for Elemental Flux when I actually wake up, but the Tier 9 is lackluster, especially compared to other Tier 9s. Scarlet throne is the closest to it, and is a head above and a step ahead of the Elemental Flux tier 9.

1-5 So you’re saying you don’t like it and why (which is appreciated), but it mostly comes down to not being willing to write down cards (what do you folks write your maneuvers down on anyhow? I’ve always used cards since ToB) and that it makes it hard for online gaming. Valid complaints as far how it changes how you prep maneuvers. This changes how mystics play as they don’t play as tactically so much as they have random tricks they can use. I feel the randomization fits the theme I wanted.

Hone and Improved Hone will be getting revamped.

Feat support for active elements is a good idea.

Elemental Attunement still works without Flux, but it is a little weaker. You can still maintain an active element type and spend an animus when initiating a maneuver outside of Flux to change the damage bonus to an energy type.

Runes and Sigils (which I need to fix to call Glyphs to make it easier) are there to cover a portion of the class’ role, which is that of the martial buff/debuff machine.

Flux 9 is lackluster, agreed. Suggestions are appreciated.

I really want to like the Anima Mystic but I'm going to have to understand it first. Nimbus, Blaze and the like are always on, yeah? What kind of action is it to swap between Runic Mysteries, can it be done in combat? Are Runic Mysteries subject to the modifier switch under Maneuvers?

I really like the concept but it seems oddly edited.

edit: Also a fun bit of weirdness: if you've got a psion buddy who's got Cold Resistance of at least 12, you can throw a Cold Throne rune on them to make them invincible for a period while keeping their ability to manifest.

Nimbus, blaze, and pyre build as you gain animus. I guess the rule piece for that disappeared into the Ether. I’ll fix that. The idea is that as you build animus through maneuver use, you passively gain this aura that does stuff. You can switch mysteries I think it was a move action, I’ll check my home documents when I get home. These should also be Charisma based. Cold Throne needs fixing then perhaps.

I have a couple of questions about Elements as One: 1) It specifically refers to the way that Mystics change their active element. Does this mean that only Mystics can use it, or could another initiating class that meets the prereqs (through archetypes/traits/martial traditions) also make use of it? 2) The text says you hold all four elements at once and can switch freely between them. Does that mean that the stances that give elements based on active element give you the benefits of all four elements? Because that seems really good for one feat and almost mandatory to get the full benefit out of Elemental Flux. Or, does it let you switch between elemental attunements as a free action (seems to imply this by the ability to "switch freely between them" line).

Anyone can use Elements as One if they meet the prereqs. No, one element is on at a time but you may switch between attunements as a free action. I need to be clearer there.

Idiot Mystic looks not possible ATM as Idiot Crusader relies on shaky interpretation of rules for initiator PRCs that seem to be missing from PoW1 (as there is no Mystic there), and I don't think there's publicly available "systems and use" chapter of PoW2. Namely the bit when gaining maneuver readied through PRC for Crusader also adds one maneuver granted.

Text says Mystic 1 knows three runes, but there is only one rune in the table.

Burning Weapon sounds like a sigil, not a rune.
Actually, there are a lot of them. Aren't runes supposed to be used on enemies and blow up when said enemy is struck, and sigils used on allies to buff them?

Eldritch Consumption - I have a gut feeling it can be used to get (almost) single-target magic immunity.
Elemental Vortex Attack - doesn't allow a save for earth effect.
Eldritch Energy Hammer - typo "A disciple of the Eldritch Flux". Also uses IL, not spellcraft like Eldritch Consumption.
Eldritch Fang Flurry - no bonus damage?

I guess I had my hopes too high. I don't like anything about Mystic, and really hate Crusader recovery mechanics. Elemental Flux is overall meh with an exception of awesome stances. Every initiator I build will consider two to four Advanced Study to get them.

Anima Mystic looks interesting though. However, it doesn't explicitly state the action of activating a mystery, nor that you can only have one mystery active (you have to read to the capstone to figure it out).

Raging Storm nimbus - "once per kid"?

Yay for no idiot mystic!

Oops, I need to fix that. Start with one rune per level. Unless you all feel I should bump them to three for utility’s sake.

Runes activate when struck in combat on an enemy, i.e. Bill the Mystic casts burning weapon rune on Orc1. Bob the Warder runs over and smacks him with a hammer, and his weapon bursts into flames as a free bonus. Sigil example: Bill casts a Hardened Armor on Bob, and Orc1 is super mad at that hammer thing, and hits Bob back. Boom, activates Hardened Armor. Bob could also activate it on his own by smacking the sigil.

I’ll address the Flux issues on my next pass through it.

Sorry to disappoint, what were you expecting or hoping for? What strikes you as meh about Flux? Not liking something is fine, but if you could tell me what you were looking for, what struck you as bad, etc would be really helpful in making the mystic a better class overall.

Anima mystic was actually the default mystic, but I was afraid it was too overloaded so I was going to split it out. Was thinking on adding it back in.

Hello, love all the work Dreamscarred Press has been doing. Ty so much for continued excellence.

I wanted to give my 2 cents worth about the Mystic.

1)Maneuvers Readied: Do they all have to be random? Cant we have the 2 we start with as chosen by us and then have all the rest as random. That would give us some control and still maintain randomness.

2)Blade Meditation: I.. don't like the name. It just doesn't fit with the rest of the class, nor with the description of the ability

3)Runes and Sigils: Could this be changed to a move action? I never liked the idea that there were no Maneuvers that used move actions and would still make you take tough decisions.

4)Font of Animus: Why limit it to 1/day? Its a 19th lvl ability and forces you to give up your move action and take damage. I see no reason to limit it to 1/day. If you think the 1d6+wisdom is too much for at will then I would suggest limit it to just 1d6 or the Wisdom.

5)Arcane Defense: Could we maybe get this bonus added to our touch AC vs magical spells, spell-like abilities, and psionic powers as well?

Maneuvers:
Is there a reason that a lot of the damage you do jumps between d4 and d6? I could understand if any of the Force damage you did was dropped to d4 but a lot of your elemental damage varies between the die sizes.

Also, I see no point to Static Strike, which does 2d4 damage when I can take Variable Flux which is exactly the same but does 1d6 and adds an effect.

Feats:
Hone weapon.... I think you have been advised enough that this feat chain is not an option for anyone.

Elements as One: this says you count all 4 elements as your active but then says you may switch between them, which sounds.... opposite to each other. Perhaps just say that as a free action(that may be taken on anothers turn as well) you change which element is your active.

Can we just remove the feat tax of Magical Aptitude? It just seems pointless. Just give a feat like a skill point requirement or something. feats are precious.

Just as some suggestions:
-Could we maybe have a low lvl Stance that allowed us to use our active energy type as a ranged attack that is usable with iteratives? Say like something with a 30ft range or range increment and that deals 1d4 energy damage as a touch attack that functions with BaB. Or maybe make it part of the class itself to make it more unique?
-This idea is more for all the PoW stuff. Could there be a feat or something that allows a class ability that has been replaced to still counts as its original. As an example, The sworn protector replaces Aegis with Guardianship. It would be cool if we could take Diverse training and have it still apply to Guardianship.

Well that's all my thoughts for now. I hope any of the above is usefull. :)
Thanks again for all the amazing work.

1- This seems to be a common request, I’m sensing a theme here. :P
2- What would you suggest?
3- That’s an interesting prospect. What do the rest of you think? Glyphs (runes and sigils) as a move action so you can still strike and boost?
4- Good point. No limit.
5- You’re the 2nd person to bring that up; I avoided it because I was being conservative. I don’t see why I couldn’t add it but I was afraid of adding too much and the class being OP.

Feats:

Hone: Yeah yeah
Elements: Switching freely is really what I meant, I’ll clarify. No, I find it a fitting prereq.
Diverse Training: It’s a hard feat to write and make balanced. Jade and I are working through it.

Maneuvers:
Flux - that’s not a bad idea, what does everyone else think?

----

SERIOUS QUESTION TIME:

Should I add animas back into Mystic by default? It would still be Wisdom based as a standard, instead of Charisma based anima mystic.

-X

Tempestfury

2015-02-20, 11:01 AM

I'm... not to sure on the anima's and the mystic in all honesty. However, I will say this. For Diverse Training, instead of making a list of features and classes. Why don't you say 'Any class that has maneuvers without any archetypes'?

Though I'm not sure how you would clarify what class feature you that it effects though, as the class features chosen are all different levels, so you can't say something like 'Their first level/second level class feature' or hell 'one of their class features during the first two levels'.

ArcanistSupreme

2015-02-20, 11:15 AM

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the intent of the maneuver, but where does the initiator end up after using Zephyr Flux? It says that they "transmute their very form into elemental energy, albeit for a moment, and travel in the blink of an eye across a battlefield in the form of devastating elemental power." To me, this reads that the initiator is zipping around the battlefield himself as a being of pure energy.

ErrantX

2015-02-20, 11:16 AM

Tempestfury

2015-02-20, 11:28 AM

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 11:30 AM

I put it in later as a way of showing that you’ve learned to tame some of this inherent wildness and can sometimes use it to your advantage.

I understood that. Like I said, I like the idea, but even with that theme, I would be inclined to move it closer to level 5 than level 10.

I split them up in case someone wanted to have a theme; that’s part of where anima mystic comes in as well.

Haven't read too much of Anima Mystic yet, but I don't really see this as an argument. If someone wants a purely fire themed Mystic, they will probably have their element set to Fire at all times, so their Elemental X abilities will be fire based. Meanwhile, someone who wants a general master of the elements has to spend 2 runes per element on damage types and resistances, leaving him with significantly fewer other runes.

I fail to see your point on wooden weapons. It’s just a name for the ability.

It seemed like you were going for a connection to the idea of cold iron/steel being an effective weapon against fey. Just wanted to point that out.

Hone is getting a rewrite; I want the ability, but I was being extremely conservative to begin with on it.

We noticed :smalltongue:

Could you explain further on this? Gaining new readied maneuvers means exactly that, you gain an additional readied maneuver. It doesn’t grant you anything. I should put in a feat for extra granted maneuver, but just means you can ready another maneuver.

As it stands, if you can ready 5 maneuvers and get 2, you have a 40% chance of getting any given maneuver. If you take Extra Readied Maneuver, you now have 6 but still only get 2. This makes you less likely to get the maneuver you want on any given turn, and it takes longer for you to get the maneuver you want back (since it takes another turn to gain all of your maneuvers)

Sorry that you feel that way, I feel that it’s appropriate feat tax as it gives bonuses to Spellcraft and UMD, which fit for mastering different ways to use your class abilities.

The problem is that you admit it is a tax. Feat taxes are bad. There are not enough feats for most people to afford taxes. No taxation without representation, and the community seems to be voting against this one (Sorry, the rhyme popped back into my head and I decided to run with it :smalltongue:)

It might be good to spell it out, you’re right. Probably a sidebar call out.

This was basically the point being made about Extra Readied Maneuver

Profane’s not a bad call, but I worry that it’s too evil ya know?

Meh, whiners gonna whine, we just use the powers of darkness :smalltongue:

Why do you feel it does not need the animus tax?

Compare this to Psionic Meditation. From my understanding of Psionics, PM is pretty much a feat tax on anyone using the system (slight exaggeration). It's benefit is substantial (honestly more than this), but the cost of getting it is the feat. This costs a feat, and then any time you use it it still has a cost. Maybe make it so that you can pay Animus to make it a Move Action, but as it stands, all it really does is let you move in the turn you use Meditation.

Flux 9 is lackluster, agreed. Suggestions are appreciated.

PMed you one, actually

3- That’s an interesting prospect. What do the rest of you think? Glyphs (runes and sigils) as a move action so you can still strike and boost?

Wrong way to go. I would say allow them to rune and boost in the same turn, or rune in the turn after they counter. Maybe x/encounter starting at 4 and increasing every 4 levels?

The thing is, every class wants 3 things to do: Move, Standard, Swift. Paizo classes generally want Full Attack and Swift. PoW classes are able to make use of all their actions by Boost/Counter, moving, and then striking (or using a full round strike if they don't need to move). A lot of PoW classes also have other things for swifts (Claims and Gambits, namely). However, those two are used when you don't have maneuvers. Runes seem to be meant to be used in tandem with maneuvers, and their action economy should represent that.

Taveena

2015-02-20, 12:11 PM

Incidentally, getting a Profane bonus isn't necessarily evil. The Strength of Hell boost, for example, is Profane, but not [Evil].

Incidentally, if Flux's capstone is going to be pure damage, maybe make it hit a little harder than the damage + debuff capstones like Scarlet Throne's?
You could do something like 40 damage of each element, as well as 40 extra damage of your active element. I like the idea of being able to blast out all four elements at once, though at this point you'd need to account for all the resistances enemies have, so you could probably ramp the damage up a fair bit to compensate. Alternatively, go like the rest of the discipline and have a REALLY AWESOME secondary effect based on your active element. Iiii am admittedly imagining something a little bit like WoW's Shaman's Elemental Blast - bust out a sizable amount of damage and apply a huge personal buff to yourself in the process.

ArcanistSupreme

2015-02-20, 12:18 PM

You basically turn into a chain lightning spell.

-X

I got that part, but what square does the initiator end up in?

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 12:56 PM

stack

2015-02-20, 01:03 PM

Since others have voiced the concerns that formed in my mind overnight, I will instead try to build a mystic, targeting a level 6 ranged build, making notes as I go along.

Mystic looks like it will allow many saves, so high wisdom is important. D8 means Con cannot be neglected at all. Nothing left for STR, have to focus on Dex/Wis.

Blade meditation damage seems to be too low to matter after the earliest levels. Your animus pool just won't be that large.

Elemental attunement costs animus and an action. Since it specifies 'as part of assuming a new stance' can you have the 'new stance' be the one you are already in?

Martial Craftsman: nice on a non-ranged, non-dex build that can actually spare feats. Too bad the class doesn't lend itself to strength builds that could actually afford to take crafting feats at reasonable levels.

Sorcerous step - full round out of combat is definitely an improvement. So far this is only the second use of animus, since the glyph text doesn't give them an animus cost. At this point I have to ask if the animus pool is worth bothering about? You want decent wisdom and you will be using at least 1/maneuver a round most of the time. Seems like it would take effort to burn through it all so fast that it becomes an actual limitation. - Okay, glyph cost is down by the glyph list. Seems like mentioning it in the glyph text up above would be helpful, cause I had to look for it more than once to find it. Still seems hard to burn animus fast enough to run out, at least before getting to the master glyphs.

Spell dodge - nice, too bad about the low reflex save. Still very useful given that you will likely to the dex route anyway. Doesn't appear to work against supernatural abilities, so good luck with that dragon breath or your enemy mystic.

Arcane defense - helps with spell dodge, always nice to get a boost verses spells, especially with two bad saves.

Given the random granting of maneuvers, it seems best to avoid boosts/counters and focus on strikes, leaving your swifts for glyphs. Cutting out 2/3 of the maneuver types seems like a bad idea, design wise, but if you can't count on the counter being their when you need it and you can spam glyphs in place of bothering with random boosts, why would you take them?

Elements as one - magic aptitude as a feat tax is not good. Dex or ranged builds eat too many feats, you can't get this in time on even with the bonus feats as a human, and you pretty much have to have it to focus on elemental flux effectively.

Extra animus - might be useful by the time you get master glyphs.

Sheet is here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1128414), will add maneuvers when I get a chance.

Togath

2015-02-20, 01:15 PM

Another point I'd like to make is how much I hate that Earth always gets acid. I can understand water to cold and air to electricity, but earth to acid always felt like something WotC did to give them an energy type. Personally, I think earth should be either Force (and a damage die smaller) or Bludgeoning (in which case Resistance becomes DR/Slashing or Piercing)

I have the same view... Acid just never quite felt right with earth(I tuned it down a lot with a homebrew discipline I've been working on. Most/many of the earth maneuvers use shockwaves or blasts of stone[there's still a few that use acid, but those are usually multi-element maneuvers]).

TheEmperor

2015-02-20, 01:16 PM

Nyaa

2015-02-20, 01:24 PM

Sorry to disappoint, what were you expecting or hoping for? What strikes you as meh about Flux? Not liking something is fine, but if you could tell me what you were looking for, what struck you as bad, etc would be really helpful in making the mystic a better class overall.
Whoa, I edited that post too much and forgot to add it? Stupid me.
Guess I hoped it would be either some kind of arcane swordsage with self-buffs more or less replicating spells, or initiator elemental blaster. Currently, blasting maneuvers are just not worth their known slots and actions used to initiate them. Damage is static and in line (sometimes a die or two higher) with physical disciplines, but BB, MC and RH "strike X times" and ST "deal X times the damage" scale with your weapon damage. Maybe there should be augmentation mechanics like in SG, but with animus instead of PP? Or damage based on Spellcraft check and/or initiating modifier like in RH?

I'd like to see animas back in regular Mystic. Guess it gives him more narrow theme than "I'm the master of elements". Some animas, mostly Flares, have the same issue as blasting maneuvers though - they don't scale.

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 01:44 PM

1-5 So you’re saying you don’t like it and why (which is appreciated), but it mostly comes down to not being willing to write down cards (what do you folks write your maneuvers down on anyhow? I’ve always used cards since ToB) and that it makes it hard for online gaming. Valid complaints as far how it changes how you prep maneuvers. This changes how mystics play as they don’t play as tactically so much as they have random tricks they can use. I feel the randomization fits the theme I wanted.

Hone and Improved Hone will be getting revamped.

Feat support for active elements is a good idea.

Elemental Attunement still works without Flux, but it is a little weaker. You can still maintain an active element type and spend an animus when initiating a maneuver outside of Flux to change the damage bonus to an energy type.

Runes and Sigils (which I need to fix to call Glyphs to make it easier) are there to cover a portion of the class’ role, which is that of the martial buff/debuff machine.

Flux 9 is lackluster, agreed. Suggestions are appreciated.

I'm aggravated that the only thing you pulled from that was #3 when there were 3 other valid points, then turned around and called me lazy. I am lazy, I will admit, but when it comes to games I will be the most passionate person you've met about them. If I was lazy about this I wouldn't have even bothered posting about this class.

The issue isn't me being unwilling to figure out a way to shuffle maneuvers to get them randomly -- Hell, a quick search on Google led me to https://www.random.org/lists/ which I could use for maneuvers for online. Offline I could use a deck of cards, index, or assign maneuvers to dice, or especially in this day and age, just have my phone out so I could go to the aforementioned website. The issue is that when you introduce randomness as a core class feature, you're no longer just fighting your enemies, you're fighting yourself as well.

I'll split this up into two parts so hopefully something gets through: As a designer and as a player.

As a designer: It works.

You get 1 maneuver per turn for free, and although it's random, you know that this is going how it's going to react, so you can plan for it. You have your Sigils/Runes/Glyphs as your swift action slot, so you can throw away the notion of needing counters or boosts (Although with Glyphs you have to preemptively use your counters). This frees up your slots to use Maneuvers that primarily deal damage, so that when you get something random, it's more in it's after-effect than it is for it's damage. The system runs okay.

As a player: I'd never play this class. I will pass on my understanding so that other people will not play this class. I will, as a GM, look at my players when they say 'I want to play a Mystic' and ask them 'Are you sure?' in the same tone of voice I use when they're about to do something really dumb.

Why? Disregarding all fluff(Which is fine, I like the idea):
1) It is Pseudo-Random
1a) It is known to us, but we cannot control it.
2) It takes away our options.
2a) There's a gap between knowing that it takes away our options because of the recovery mechanic, and knowing that to effectively use the recovery mechanic, you have to limit your options further.

I like having options. I do not play the fighter because they're not effective and boring, but even if they were effective, having your options be 'I full round attack' or 'I Move and Attack and do less damage' or 'I spent my feat tax so I might be able to beat this monster's ludicrous CMD to do this maneuver'. That'd bore me to tears.

Path of War introduces options for martial. Now I have options. I don't have to trade mobility for damage any more. I can act outside of turn, counter-interacting with opponents. I can Jump, Fly, or even Teleport. I can dimensional anchor fools. I can pick up a wooden spoon and make it Unholy. I can effectively protect allies with the Aegis feature, I can inspire them with the Gambit feature, or I could unify their Hearts as One as a Zealot.

Mystic gives me options with one hand, then takes it away with the other. I get Maneuvers, but I don't get to choose when I get them. This means that if my buddy is dying because he has a Manticore on him, and I need to rush over and use Elemental Drive to shove him away, I better have hoped that I didn't expend it this encounter, if I even got it in the first place. I couldn't even save it if it did come up either, cause when all my maneuvers are no longer withheld, at the end my turn I lose them. It's literally use it or lose it. What are the chances of that I've already been granted the Maneuver I need, and it have not already been spent earlier in combat.

This is not an issue with any other class in the game, from DSP or Pathfinder(Core/Base/Alternate) The closest you could get to is the Arcanist, who can still spend a full round action to re-jigger his spells around with Quick study and a point of energy. You can spend a point of energy and a full round action as the Mystic, but you're rolling the dice at that point. You may not get what you need.

Now what I could do if I was forced to play this class was to select all my maneuvers based around dealing damage. This means that I'm going to only be filling one role (Striker), plus whatever the glyphs alone could cover, but I never have to worry about not having the damage. I can use my Glyphs for my swift actions/boosts, and my Maneuvers for damage. But then I've lost all those options from all of the other Disciplines. I can't take Counters or Boosts because I want strikes to deal damage. I can't take situational abilities (Clockwatcher Boost, Eldritch Shield counter, for example) because if I get them in a round that I need damage, it's literally worthless. So I have to homogenize my maneuver list to basically read Attack+Damage+Whatever, so I won't be doing sub-par damage (And letting down the party). When I homogenize my list, I lose options. No counters, no-non-damage boosts (Probably neither of these because they conflict with Sigils), and no non-damaging maneuvers.

So my choices with Maneuvers in regards to the Mystic is either

a) Choose maneuvers I want, and pray that I get them when I need them, and get screwed when I don't.
b) Homogenize my list, so that each maneuver does roughly the same thing, therefore it doesn't matter what maneuver I get.

Neither of those options are appealing at all.

I'm losing steam fast, so I'll stop here and say that if none of this is making sense, please let me know. I'll be glad to provide examples, re-explain things, rephrase things, whatever is needed so that these points are understood. Hell, I'll even try to write up different maneuver recovery mechanics if you want to take them in place of the random one that's currently there.

---
Finally I feel that Tap Animus feat should be based off your initiation modifier, not Wisdom.
9th level Elemental Flux -- Throwing spaghetti to the wall, how about a Stance, much like the PoW presitge classes, that you can only hold for a limited amount of time? The stance could make all 4 elements be considered you active element, or give ALL your maneuvers (Even maneuvers outside elemental flux) an additional effect based off your Active element. Could work as a boost as well, if the effects are powerful enough.
Force Flux is reading +2d6 in the short text and 10d6 in the full text.

ghanjrho

2015-02-20, 01:53 PM

@ErrantX

As a wonderful side note, tying maneuvers granted directly to maneuvers known utterly stops any chance of an idiot mystic.

As a possible suggestion for Diverse Training; eliminate the class feature progression side of it. For a one level dip and a feat, you can get a full nine level maneuver progression (provided that you stay in your other class). That's the half of the feat that concerns me more, in all honesty.

I get what you mean, but profane isn't necessarily evil, and it certainly isn't [Evil]. Especially in PF, undead and profane go hand in hand.

Because it's spending a feat and 2 extra animus to be able to move 30 feet. If it reduced Blade Meditation to a move, then sure. As it stands, the feat itself is tax enough.

Anlashok

2015-02-20, 01:54 PM

You know I get not liking the recovery, but the whole "you're stupid if you're ok with it or like it" bit is just kind of dickish and ruins everything else you had to say

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 02:06 PM

You know I get not liking the recovery, but the whole "you're stupid if you're ok with it or like it" bit is just kind of dickish and ruins everything else you had to say

That's not how I meant to come off, but it's an unfilling mechanic and players will start to realize that when they start getting screwed by the randomness of it, and look at the other classes and go 'Why can I have something nice like that'?

Alea

2015-02-20, 02:10 PM

The issue is that when you introduce randomness as a core class feature, you're no longer just fighting your enemies, you're fighting yourself as well.
Crusader is, mechanically anyway, by-far my favorite 3.5 class, I have played numerous of them at all levels and in campaigns at myriad different optimization levels, and I have never once felt I was fighting against myself. In fact, the first time I ran a crusader, I took Extra Granted Maneuver, fearing exactly what you are, and eventually asked the DM to retrain it: I felt it was unnecessary. I have never taken it on any crusader since, nor have I ever felt like I suffered for its lack.

As a player: I'd never play this class.
And it's clear, I think, that you haven't – it works out far better than you think.

There have been a handful of times, over years of playing and around half a dozen different crusaders, where I really wanted one particular maneuver. There have been times when I didn't get it. Specifically, there have been two instances, that I can remember, where I really wanted one particular maneuver and it was denied to me. Two. They stick out in my mind, because they are so surprising when they happen; they rarely do.

That's the main thing: you randomly get a subset of a small list of awesome options. No matter what subset you get, it's going to be awesome. It's going to be useful. You're going to want those maneuvers. The other maneuvers, that are denied to you, those will be available soon. And very few maneuvers are so specialized that they aren't useful, or you absolutely need this one in a given situation. It happens. It does come up. Except you have most of your maneuvers available most of the time, so even when you need them, the odds are pretty good that you have them.

So the fear you have here isn't completely unfounded, but it is far more rare than you suggest, in my experience. In fact, like I said: based on your fears, I'm relatively sure you have never played a crusader, because I don't know anyone who has, and is still worried about this. It's a concern everyone has when they read the class, but in practice it just doesn't come up, and the awesome-ness of the never-ending initiating makes you more than comfortable with that slight risk.

Mystic gives me options with one hand, then takes it away with the other. I get Maneuvers, but I don't get to choose when I get them. This means that if my buddy is dying because he has a Manticore on him, and I need to rush over and use Elemental Drive to shove him away, I better have hoped that I didn't expend it this encounter, if I even got it in the first place. I couldn't even save it if it did come up either, cause when all my maneuvers are no longer withheld, at the end my turn I lose them. It's literally use it or lose it. What are the chances of that I've already been granted the Maneuver I need, and it have not already been spent earlier in combat.
Actually, the chances are very good. In a longer fight, they’re actually better than they are for other initiators.

First, you reference “not having already expended the maneuver” several times – every initiator has that problem. The others are guaranteed to need to spend another turn to get it back: they are not going to be able to use that maneuver this turn if they have already used it (unless they’ve already spent a round doing little). You have a sizable chance of having already gotten it back, if the fight’s been going.

Second, in a typical readied-maneuver list, there is not just one solution to a problem. And unlike every other initiator, you will basically never be without a maneuver available. This tends to make you much more reliable than anyone else.

So basically, you may hate the very concept of the class so much that you’ll never play it, but that doesn’t mean that no one else will, or that anyone does is making a mistake. I haven’t had a chance to go through the mystic in particular yet, but if Dreamscarred Press is doing their job, and this functions at all like the class it’s inspired by, it should work wonderfully.

Remember: though the classes in Tome of Battle were generally rated as extremely close in power, the crusader was generally considered, by the TO community, the best of them, on the basis of recovery mechanics alone.

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 02:11 PM

Okay, this will be a long one. I'm reviewing Elemental Flux. All of it.

As a note that came up while writing this: Part of why the Magical Aptitude tax on Elements as One is so horrible is that Elements as One, on its own, is practically a tax on the class. Not necessarily one needed for the class to function, but more a case of WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU TAKE THIS.

Other thing that came up: to elaborate on the Earth != Acid thing, when people build a character around using elemental Earth, they don't think of throwing acid around. They want to throw rocks at people.

Eldritch Shield: Solid counter. At these levels, energy damage is rare, so this pretty much negates a single attack, balanced by the rarity and the cost of your next swift. Though Honestly, I can't see myself ever readying this outside of specific campaigns.

Elemental Nimbus: I like this. Fire for damage, Water for a debuff, Air for accuracy and smaller damage. The Earth option is the most situational, though not being energy damage is a plus. The biggest problem is the water option being too big of a debuff to be on a stance. The same thing is on a first level Broken Blade strike. I'd say the earlier suggestion of daze is a good one.

Embrace the Elements: Encourages starting in Fire (Initiative bonus). I like this stance.

Fluctuation Movement: I almost feel the air one is a bit strong, since it's comparable to Leaping Dragon while still giving other options.

Spark Strike: I agree with previous comments that this is kind of underwhelming compared to the next one, since it has no rider. Perhaps have it deal 2d4 to the primary target, and then deals 1d4 to an adjacent enemy, as the energy sparks to the new target? At low levels, 1d4 is actually a decent amount against minion-type enemies.

Variable Flux: Again, the problem here is staggered being a bit too strong. Drop it to dazed and you're good.

Arcane Shield: Standard Skill-block Counter. There are a lot of these, but some don't work on magic. And it's generally important to light armored classes that don't get another stat to AC.

Degrade Resistance: Perfect as is

Eldritch Fang: This is what I meant about the staggered being too good on Elemental Nimbus. You have the same thing on a second level Boost. I think this is okay on staggered, but it's still a bit underwhelming. I would probably go with giving it a bit of Force damage. Probably just 1d6, since it's a boost.

Elemental Jolt: 2d6 damage plus a rider. Good, but now the details. Fire shouldn't have a duration, since being set on fire lasts until you make a Reflex save to put it out. Water is now daze, which I think is fine. Air being knockdown feels wrong, that should be Earth. I might make Air sickened for a round or something (knocking the wind out of them, literally)

Energy Strike: Again, looks good, except for the riders. Fire is good, Water is good. You again gave Air a rider that sounds more like it belongs on Earth (a big part of this goes back to my comment about Earth != Acid in thematics). The current Earth one is pretty crap (there's a reason no one uses Sunder. It breaks our loot). I would say give Air's current rider to Earth and give Air a bonus to hit against metal-armor targets

Elemental Flux Stance: Holy mother of crap. This is one of the best stances I have ever seen. I love it. I was worried because, thanks to Elements as One, this stance WILL be taken at level 5. But I would take this stance anyways. Good damage, and the individual elemental effects are all good. Fire might be a bit much (unlimited Fast Healing scares a lot of GMs because it means you will almost never start a fight not at max health). Still, I love this thing.

Lance of Power: Good AoE maneuver. The damage is actually pretty high when you get it, but the lack of scaling hurts it.

Energy Spark: Meh. Like, seriously Meh. 3d6 energy damage for a boost on a third level boost? As fun as this sounds to use, probably a pass.

Raging Flux: Okay, well, this needs a rule for when you knock an enemy into a wall. Maybe something like 1d6 for every 5ft they aren't getting pushed back?

Arcane Torrent: No. Damage is 6-24. This is a fourth level maneuver that takes a touch attack. Compare this to the most classic of Force Damage effects, Magic Missile. Currently, it deals 4d4+4, meaning 8-20. In two levels, Magic Missile, which doesn't have to roll to hit, will deal 10-24 damage. You made a fourth level maneuver that deals small damage compared to Magic Missile. I would say make this a Fireball type AoE and change it to 5d4. Instead of a blast, it is a barrage of magical energy, and the save is to dodge the blasts.

Eldritch Consumption: I would say bump the healing up to 5/spell level. 8 damage at level 7 (blocking a 4th level spell) is pretty meh as a rider to a counter. 20 sounds much nicer.

Energy Hammer: Yup. This sounds good.

Assay Resistance: Good boost. Would combo with Energy Hammer. If I could do it reliably.

Elemental Drive: I would probably never take this on a Mystic. Maybe on a Warlord who had the Bull Rush Gambit, but not on Mystic.

Elemental Vortex Attack: I like this maneuver, though you still have an unnecessary duration on the fire rider.

Embrace Element: YES. ALL OF THE YES. I can actually see comboing this to fight swarms of little enemies by dropping a damage rune of your element on yourself so that whenever they hit you, they deal your energy damage and heal you. I consider this a massive plus.

Enter the Vortex: Okay, so, I really, really like your designs for stances. These are great.

Eldritch Energy Hammer: Fun. Kind of wish they got something in this vibe sooner. But then again, I want to make my own discipline with this as the poster child.

Energy Ring: Sounds good, but does it hit you?

Eldritch Fang Flurry: I would tack on a bit of bonus force damage. Ignore DR and blinded as a rider isn't bad, but a little damage isn't going to break anything at this level.

Shatter Resistance: I kind of wish this was earlier, but I suppose it's fair here.

Cascade of Arcane Wrath: I would give a bonus attack with this, since Mystic is only 3/4 BAB. Also, I recommend changing the name to Cascade of Elemental Wrath. Arcane seems to be the keyword for Force damage.

Force Flux: Kind of underwhelming, since the main advantage of this is avoiding DR, which Eldritch Fang Flurry does as a boost. The 10d6 damage is nice, but I'm not sure it's enough for a 7th level maneuver.

Redirecting Flux: I was going to complain about the DC being too high. Then I started typing the math and realized that it's basically a 50% chance against a caster of the same level as you. So I'll be quiet.

Elemental Breach: Woah Nelly. This be good.

Master of the Elements: You know my opinion on these stances. Nothing has changed.

Zephyr Flux: The question has been asked: Where do you end up? I could see giving the option of not moving or ending up next to the last target. Also, 12d6 damage seems kind of low. The actual chain lightning spell is currently dealing 15d6 base at this level.

And we all know the 9th needs to be changed. And you have my submission for a replacement.

Togath

2015-02-20, 02:17 PM

That's not how I meant to come off, but it's an unfilling mechanic and players will start to realize that when they start getting screwed by the randomness of it, and look at the other classes and go 'Why can I have something nice like that'?

This is pretty much my view as well.
Super random isn't fun in the long run, and in the short term it takes up a lot of time to use. Having a shuffle and deal out a deck of cards every turn or so rather than just saying "I use [x]".
The crusader mechanic is a case of "maybe if it were a video game, and damage was the only thing you ever needed"... But it doesn't work in something like dnd unless you're playing kick-in-the-door hack'n'slash.

tekevil

2015-02-20, 02:29 PM

Maneuver shuffling looks like a fun mechanic. I know people who used ToB and they found Crusader to be a really fun play experience, so I'm looking forward to it!

Besides the 5 other classes have 'tactical' maneuver recover, so why does it matter that the 6 has random?

Nyaa

2015-02-20, 02:33 PM

I've been reading Harbinger... Why not give Mystic an ability to spontaneously initiate a maneuver known by expending readied maneuver of the same discipline that's at least one level higher?

stack

2015-02-20, 02:36 PM

Think I'm going to scrap my plans on building a throwing mystic build. Better off just taking a bow and grabbing a feat to make it a discipline weapon. Outside of ninja shuriken flurries and Brute McMelee carrying as a ranged backup, thrown weapons useless, screwed by the rules and feat taxes; any effort put to making them work could be better spent doing anything else. You can make them functional, but you've blow such a huge portion of either your feats and wealth that it just isn't worth it. I thought making a solar wind/elemental flux throwing build could be cool. Why bother?

My favorite thing about Legend may just be that you don't have to fight the bloody system every step of the way just to use a certain type of weapon.

Edit - sorry about the vent, its been bugging me both with potential PoW builds and with Akashic builds.

squiggit

2015-02-20, 02:58 PM

Feat taxes suck.

I think the biggest problem throwing weapons have though ad the weapon themselves. You need like 20 weapon enchants and blinkback belt just to make it work.

I homebrewed an enchantable bandolier that works like an amulet of mighty fists for throwing weapons and creates its own daggers. That helped some

Makes me appreciate systems with generic weapons though for sure

Forrestfire

2015-02-20, 02:59 PM

This is pretty much my view as well.
Super random isn't fun in the long run, and in the short term it takes up a lot of time to use. Having a shuffle and deal out a deck of cards every turn or so rather than just saying "I use [x]".
The crusader mechanic is a case of "maybe if it were a video game, and damage was the only thing you ever needed"... But it doesn't work in something like dnd unless you're playing kick-in-the-door hack'n'slash.

Except that, as noted by Alea above, it's not super-random. Nor does it really take a lot of time to have the cards ready. You only really shuffle once per full rotation of maneuvers, after all, and that takes way less time than, say, looking in a book for a spell or maneuver's text.

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 03:06 PM

And it's clear, I think, that you haven't – it works out far better than you think.

My first experience with ToB was the Crusader. I played a fiery young human who struggled to be Lawful Good amongst a pack of Drow (Forgotten realms, The GM forgot to give me the memo) who ranged from Neutral to evil and the adventure took place in the Underdark. I had focused on Stalker Spooky(I forget the actual discipline name, Something Ghost) and White Raven. This also happened to be my first encounter with Drow and the Underdark as a player, so the group took my constant questioning in stride and consistently played me off one another. The campaign was fun. ToB had some fun mechanics. I enjoyed it more than the fighter and Barbarian, which I was accustomed to. The campaign ended on a good note, at 12th level (From 1st) with most of the Drow converting to good (Or at least pretending to be), and I learned a lot about Drow, Underdark, and the Crusader.

Specifically about the Crusader, I had taken away two things from it.

Steely Resolve(AKA 'The Slowpoke defense') became a beloved mechanic of mine, and even more so when coupled with Spooky able to heal off the damage in the pool. This mechanic caused me to level a Monk in WoW when they came out because they share the same mechanic (Stagger), and the Diablo gem that shares the same mechanic became a favorite as well.

And how much I hated the random recovery mechanic.

Another drow was playing a Warblade(Focused on Diamond Mind) at the time -- All he had to do was spend a swift action or whack someone, or spend a swift and a standard to taunt people (Or drinking from his hip flask, Or using his scent stance to savor the smell) And he got *All* of his maneuvers back. Sure, he knew less than me, sure, he had less potential to be readied, but he had what he needed and his concept worked smoo-oothly. Parry, thrust, dodge, repeat. On rounds where he couldn't nail someone he'd just take a swig (Both in and out of character) and it made me jealous that I was sitting here going 'I'm going to go unconscious next turn unless I get my ghost decides to give me a healing strike when I'm done with this' or 'I hope I get my shield block or my buddy is looking bad' and that eventually became 'I hope I get my Anti-Evil ability' and get my Anti-chaotic one before this fight is already decided.

The swift/once day helped there, but again that was Once/day and I barely scraped through some encounters that, if I had the Warblade mechanic, I'd be off so much better.

Point being said, I played it, I hated that mechanic, and 6ish years since that campaign I still can't find anything redeeming about that feature unless you're lucky and get what you want when you want. Otherwise you'll just get screwed, and being screwed isn't fun. It's like drawing no mana in M:TG -- You got all of these amazing things in your hands but can't get what you need to make anything work.

ErrantX

2015-02-20, 03:07 PM

Oh and suggestion about the Elemental Flux Level 9 ability. We have quite a few save-or-dies, or high damage 1v1 moves. But what about an AoE maneuver? Say... 30ft range. 4 different attacks from each element. Each doing a solid amount of damage, and each one piling a status effect onto the enemy if they don't save?

Like, idk. 5-6d6 damage each. Resistance still apply of course, but each one forces a DC19+Wisdom save. Fire... catch on flames and take damage for the next few round? Cold can slow, Electricity... daze? And Acid... penalty to AC and saves perhaps?

Something akin to that was suggested; I can almost hear the complaints though about saving throws on the 9th :P

I understood that. Like I said, I like the idea, but even with that theme, I would be inclined to move it closer to level 5 than level 10.

Haven't read too much of Anima Mystic yet, but I don't really see this as an argument. If someone wants a purely fire themed Mystic, they will probably have their element set to Fire at all times, so their Elemental X abilities will be fire based. Meanwhile, someone who wants a general master of the elements has to spend 2 runes per element on damage types and resistances, leaving him with significantly fewer other runes.

It helps facilitate the archetype, so yeah, I feel it works. These aren’t as potent or versatile as spells overall, these are very specific things with little wiggle room for variation. It both keeps the versatility of non-spell abilities low (which keeps it from being OP) and facilitates an archetype.

It seemed like you were going for a connection to the idea of cold iron/steel being an effective weapon against fey. Just wanted to point that out.

Wasn’t what I was going for; Dead Steel does more damage to them due to its necrotic essence being particularly toxic to fey creatures for their stronger life affinity. That was just a flavor choice largely.

As it stands, if you can ready 5 maneuvers and get 2, you have a 40% chance of getting any given maneuver. If you take Extra Readied Maneuver, you now have 6 but still only get 2. This makes you less likely to get the maneuver you want on any given turn, and it takes longer for you to get the maneuver you want back (since it takes another turn to gain all of your maneuvers)

I am addressing the maneuver recovery controversy.

The problem is that you admit it is a tax. Feat taxes are bad. There are not enough feats for most people to afford taxes. No taxation without representation, and the community seems to be voting against this one (Sorry, the rhyme popped back into my head and I decided to run with it :smalltongue:)

I admit nothing; my faux pas for otherwise saying. I feel it’s a reasonable request. Magical Aptitude is not a bad feat for the bonuses it provides to two class skills you have, one of which is supremely useful (UMD) and the other is a skill for a discipline (Spellcraft). Calling it tax is basically saying “I really want this feat, but I don’t want to pay any entry fees for feats that don’t provide me immediate awesome to get the cool stuff it otherwise would give me.”

Compare this to Psionic Meditation. From my understanding of Psionics, PM is pretty much a feat tax on anyone using the system (slight exaggeration). It's benefit is substantial (honestly more than this), but the cost of getting it is the feat. This costs a feat, and then any time you use it it still has a cost. Maybe make it so that you can pay Animus to make it a Move Action, but as it stands, all it really does is let you move in the turn you use Meditation.

That’s a fair response. I’ll strongly consider your words here.

PMed you one, actually

Thank ya muchly!

Wrong way to go. I would say allow them to rune and boost in the same turn, or rune in the turn after they counter. Maybe x/encounter starting at 4 and increasing every 4 levels?

That’s basically the same thing though. Strike, boost, and rune. The difference is I’m not giving phantom swift actions, if you want to do three things, you’re staying put.

The thing is, every class wants 3 things to do: Move, Standard, Swift. Paizo classes generally want Full Attack and Swift. PoW classes are able to make use of all their actions by Boost/Counter, moving, and then striking (or using a full round strike if they don't need to move). A lot of PoW classes also have other things for swifts (Claims and Gambits, namely). However, those two are used when you don't have maneuvers. Runes seem to be meant to be used in tandem with maneuvers, and their action economy should represent that.

I made them swift actions initially due to this very reason, to be used along side. By making them a move action, that should solve the action economy issue.

Incidentally, getting a Profane bonus isn't necessarily evil. The Strength of Hell boost, for example, is Profane, but not [Evil].

Incidentally, if Flux's capstone is going to be pure damage, maybe make it hit a little harder than the damage + debuff capstones like Scarlet Throne's?
You could do something like 40 damage of each element, as well as 40 extra damage of your active element. I like the idea of being able to blast out all four elements at once, though at this point you'd need to account for all the resistances enemies have, so you could probably ramp the damage up a fair bit to compensate. Alternatively, go like the rest of the discipline and have a REALLY AWESOME secondary effect based on your active element. Iiii am admittedly imagining something a little bit like WoW's Shaman's Elemental Blast - bust out a sizable amount of damage and apply a huge personal buff to yourself in the process.

I’m largely unfamiliar with high end WoW so I’ll take your word on that. I’ll also take PM’s of more system based suggestions on how to accomplish that :)

I got that part, but what square does the initiator end up in?

The one he ends the chain lightning in. It’s a quasi teleport.

Another point I'd like to make is how much I hate that Earth always gets acid. I can understand water to cold and air to electricity, but earth to acid always felt like something WotC did to give them an energy type. Personally, I think earth should be either Force (and a damage die smaller) or Bludgeoning (in which case Resistance becomes DR/Slashing or Piercing)

I’d change this, but there is precedent in this being acid damage. It’s a Paizo standard.

Since others have voiced the concerns that formed in my mind overnight, I will instead try to build a mystic, targeting a level 6 ranged build, making notes as I go along.

Mystic looks like it will allow many saves, so high wisdom is important. D8 means Con cannot be neglected at all. Nothing left for STR, have to focus on Dex/Wis.

Blade meditation damage seems to be too low to matter after the earliest levels. Your animus pool just won't be that large.

Elemental attunement costs animus and an action. Since it specifies 'as part of assuming a new stance' can you have the 'new stance' be the one you are already in?

Martial Craftsman: nice on a non-ranged, non-dex build that can actually spare feats. Too bad the class doesn't lend itself to strength builds that could actually afford to take crafting feats at reasonable levels.

Sorcerous step - full round out of combat is definitely an improvement. So far this is only the second use of animus, since the glyph text doesn't give them an animus cost. At this point I have to ask if the animus pool is worth bothering about? You want decent wisdom and you will be using at least 1/maneuver a round most of the time. Seems like it would take effort to burn through it all so fast that it becomes an actual limitation. - Okay, glyph cost is down by the glyph list. Seems like mentioning it in the glyph text up above would be helpful, cause I had to look for it more than once to find it. Still seems hard to burn animus fast enough to run out, at least before getting to the master glyphs.

Spell dodge - nice, too bad about the low reflex save. Still very useful given that you will likely to the dex route anyway. Doesn't appear to work against supernatural abilities, so good luck with that dragon breath or your enemy mystic.

Arcane defense - helps with spell dodge, always nice to get a boost verses spells, especially with two bad saves.

Given the random granting of maneuvers, it seems best to avoid boosts/counters and focus on strikes, leaving your swifts for glyphs. Cutting out 2/3 of the maneuver types seems like a bad idea, design wise, but if you can't count on the counter being their when you need it and you can spam glyphs in place of bothering with random boosts, why would you take them?

Elements as one - magic aptitude as a feat tax is not good. Dex or ranged builds eat too many feats, you can't get this in time on even with the bonus feats as a human, and you pretty much have to have it to focus on elemental flux effectively.

Extra animus - might be useful by the time you get master glyphs.

Sheet is here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1128414), will add maneuvers when I get a chance.

I’ll address your issues with Arcane Defense and Spell Dodge for sure.

I think you’re also over-estimating that the randomized maneuvers are going to hurt you so badly.

---
More responses to follow.

-X

Alea

2015-02-20, 03:21 PM

And how much I hated the random recovery mechanic.

Another drow was playing a Warblade(Focused on Diamond Mind) at the time -- All he had to do was spend a swift action or whack someone, or spend a swift and a standard to taunt people (Or drinking from his hip flask, Or using his scent stance to savor the smell) And he got *All* of his maneuvers back. Sure, he knew less than me, sure, he had less potential to be readied, but he had what he needed and his concept worked smoo-oothly. Parry, thrust, dodge, repeat. On rounds where he couldn't nail someone he'd just take a swig (Both in and out of character) and it made me jealous that I was sitting here going 'I'm going to go unconscious next turn unless I get my ghost decides to give me a healing strike when I'm done with this' or 'I hope I get my shield block or my buddy is looking bad' and that eventually became 'I hope I get my Anti-Evil ability' and get my Anti-chaotic one before this fight is already decided.

The swift/once day helped there, but again that was Once/day and I barely scraped through some encounters that, if I had the Warblade mechanic, I'd be off so much better.

Point being said, I played it, I hated that mechanic, and 6ish years since that campaign I still can't find anything redeeming about that feature unless you're lucky and get what you want when you want. Otherwise you'll just get screwed, and being screwed isn't fun. It's like drawing no mana in M:TG -- You got all of these amazing things in your hands but can't get what you need to make anything work.
OK, you hated it; I'm honestly surprised. Many, in my experience most, people who have actually played the class, don't. It's considered theoretically superior and in practice it's generally enjoyed immensely. You didn't; I'm sorry to hear that.

But your argumentation that it's a bad thing to print, that DSP should not do so, and (by implication) either no one will ever enjoy or the people who do are somehow wrong to do so, are all flat-out wrong. It's something that is effective and fun for a lot of people. As it turns out, neither you nor DSP is required to bend over backwards to satisfy the other. You are allowed to dislike something they print, and they are allowed to print something you dislike.

I sincerely doubt they're going to scrap the class and start over because of your personal preferences, since my understanding is that you are not the owner of the company.

Mathias1313

2015-02-20, 03:51 PM

ErrantX

2015-02-20, 03:54 PM

Well, I can't really comment on it mechanically (give me a decade or two more of gaming experience, then we'll see), but I really like the Mystic's fluff. The idea of sheer, raw arcane power being channeled because of your inability to actually control it never occurred to me for a class.

Cool, glad you like the theme. It’s a weirdo theme, but I felt it was out there enough to give it a whirl. :)

Whoa, I edited that post too much and forgot to add it? Stupid me.
Guess I hoped it would be either some kind of arcane swordsage with self-buffs more or less replicating spells, or initiator elemental blaster. Currently, blasting maneuvers are just not worth their known slots and actions used to initiate them. Damage is static and in line (sometimes a die or two higher) with physical disciplines, but BB, MC and RH "strike X times" and ST "deal X times the damage" scale with your weapon damage. Maybe there should be augmentation mechanics like in SG, but with animus instead of PP? Or damage based on Spellcraft check and/or initiating modifier like in RH?

I'd like to see animas back in regular Mystic. Guess it gives him more narrow theme than "I'm the master of elements". Some animas, mostly Flares, have the same issue as blasting maneuvers though - they don't scale.

The reason that Flux doesn’t have that is because well, then it would be spells. I didn’t want to make a maneuver-magus effectively, I wanted to make a martial buffer/debuffer. I wanted Flux to be able to carry things that sound like spells but really actually aren’t. Not sure if I was successful in this endeavor over all. Animus augmentation sounds great, except when you don’t have animus to augment it with. I’ll mull that over though, it’s not a bad idea at all. Thank you for it!

That’s one vote for adding animas back to the class, I know Jade’s against it though because it makes maneuvers not the star sorta, but without maneuvers, you don’t get the animus build up to generate this stuff in the first place. It’s a toss up there.

I'm aggravated that the only thing you pulled from that was #3 when there were 3 other valid points, then turned around and called me lazy. I am lazy, I will admit, but when it comes to games I will be the most passionate person you've met about them. If I was lazy about this I wouldn't have even bothered posting about this class.

If there is a way to take anything on the internet, the internet takes it in the worst way possible. You judge me too harshly by what I said and took it entirely wrong. Sincere apologies for any perceived offense, twas not intended as such. My foot lives in my mouth some days.

The issue is that when you introduce randomness as a core class feature, you're no longer just fighting your enemies, you're fighting yourself as well.

I'll split this up into two parts so hopefully something gets through: As a designer and as a player.

As a designer: It works.

You get 1 maneuver per turn for free, and although it's random, you know that this is going how it's going to react, so you can plan for it. You have your Sigils/Runes/Glyphs as your swift action slot, so you can throw away the notion of needing counters or boosts (Although with Glyphs you have to preemptively use your counters). This frees up your slots to use Maneuvers that primarily deal damage, so that when you get something random, it's more in it's after-effect than it is for it's damage. The system runs okay.

You’re missing out on the fact that it is a self-perpetuating system that doesn’t require thought on the part of the player to refresh those maneuvers; everyone else has to do something and you can keep on going eternally. In ToB, those refresh mechanics on Swordsage and Warblade offered really no tactical advantage, where as in PoW there at least some benefit to having spend a turn not doing something you otherwise would and it fit their role. The mystic is the same way - a perpetual energy storm that is constantly juicing maneuvers back up to be used. They’re largely uncontrolled, and that’s the point. You understand where I’m coming from on a design level and I respect that a lot, actually, except for the mention of tossing out counters and boosts; that’s not at all intended or recommended.

As a player: I'd never play this class. I will pass on my understanding so that other people will not play this class. I will, as a GM, look at my players when they say 'I want to play a Mystic' and ask them 'Are you sure?' in the same tone of voice I use when they're about to do something really dumb.

Okay, I’m gonna cut this off here. You’ve left the realm of honest discourse and helpful critique and mostly wander into opinionated derailment. I’m not going to argue with you the further merits of the class, but I will say it’s not very nice to call people stupid for wanting to play something you don’t like. I think alchemist is stupid, but I wouldn’t tell someone not to play one. That’s on them. You have some points in here, but as I said before, the internet takes the worst possible view on something you have to say and I really won’t comment beyond that on this bit of opinion. I’m sure you meant it as nicely as possible, but I’m afraid it doesn’t read that way. I’ll let others argue opinion.

---
Finally I feel that Tap Animus feat should be based off your initiation modifier, not Wisdom.
9th level Elemental Flux -- Throwing spaghetti to the wall, how about a Stance, much like the PoW presitge classes, that you can only hold for a limited amount of time? The stance could make all 4 elements be considered you active element, or give ALL your maneuvers (Even maneuvers outside elemental flux) an additional effect based off your Active element. Could work as a boost as well, if the effects are powerful enough.
Force Flux is reading +2d6 in the short text and 10d6 in the full text.[/QUOTE]

Tap Animus - Hrm, I thought that way initially too but then I wasn’t 100% sure, I was thinking of how Grit works in this regard.

That’s an interesting take, a 9th level stance. Never thought of that.

@ErrantX

As a wonderful side note, tying maneuvers granted directly to maneuvers known utterly stops any chance of an idiot mystic.

As a possible suggestion for Diverse Training; eliminate the class feature progression side of it. For a one level dip and a feat, you can get a full nine level maneuver progression (provided that you stay in your other class). That's the half of the feat that concerns me more, in all honesty.

I get what you mean, but profane isn't necessarily evil, and it certainly isn't [Evil]. Especially in PF, undead and profane go hand in hand.

Because it's spending a feat and 2 extra animus to be able to move 30 feet. If it reduced Blade Meditation to a move, then sure. As it stands, the feat itself is tax enough.

It’s amusing because I wrote that feat as a way to progress Aegis and Zeal, and the rest was perk I felt.

Okay, that’s fair on Blade meditation feat.

I've been reading Harbinger... Why not give Mystic an ability to spontaneously initiate a maneuver known by expending readied maneuver of the same discipline that's at least one level higher?

Because I really don’t want to steal any shine from Harbinger if I can avoid doing so, honestly. I’d rather do something different. Harbinger specializes more in disciplines than Mystic does in some ways, excepting Flux I suppose.

-X

Doomeye56

2015-02-20, 03:56 PM

Magical Aptitude is most definitively a feat tax it is need for two different feat Extend Runes and Sigils Glyphs and Elements as One

An arcane caster doesnt need any prereq feats to take Extend Spell but a Mystic needs one make their buffs last long.

Elements as One needs two prereq feats (Three if your not a Mystic) to be able change you Element efficiently. A Psionic character doesnt need to blow feats to take Psionic Meditation to speed up regain Focus.

Magical Aptitude doesn't have any connection to Gylphs, they don't use spellcraft or UMD and as a skill boosting feat it feels forced onto a non-skill monkey.

ErrantX

2015-02-20, 03:59 PM

I think the option I suggested as to the recovery mechanic from my previous post would be a good compromise.

Also I did have a clarification question:
For the Glyphs, its says you start with 3 known glyphs. What then is the # under the Runes Column? Is it the number of additional Runes you know? Is it the number of times a day you may use the runes?

Again as a voice against magical aptitude being a prereq. I don't like seeing a feat that does not benefit or logically lead to a better feat. I could see Magical Aptitude being a feat tax for like a crafter feat or something but I just don't see how it flows into Elements as One. For instance, I could see it being a prereq for Runic Lore, as an example.

I'll fix the table and text on Glyphs.

How does Magical Aptitude -not- benefit you? It's bonus to skills. It logically leads to other feats, such as Elements as One or Rune Lore due to your character having a strong inclination towards knowing how magic works (Spellcraft) and using it when you otherwise couldn't (use magical device). It's considered a suboptimal feat because it doesn't lend itself to combat, but I don't feel that it is at all. I think it's a perfectly sensible feat.

-X

georgie_leech

2015-02-20, 04:00 PM

I can see why Magical Aptitude is there as a feat tax, representing gaining some ability to properly manage the forces that are still difficult to control. But that seems like it would fit better as a skill point tax instead. It seems to me that experience working with the arcane forces would mean a little bit more than discovering that you have a certain knack for it.

ErrantX

2015-02-20, 04:02 PM

stack

2015-02-20, 04:09 PM

I strongly support a skill tax in place of a feat tax.

Doomeye56

2015-02-20, 04:15 PM

I strongly support a skill tax in place of a feat tax.
Seconded

As for Anima Mystic my vote would be to combine it back in.

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 04:17 PM

How does Magical Aptitude -not- benefit you? It's bonus to skills. It logically leads to other feats, such as Elements as One or Rune Lore due to your character having a strong inclination towards knowing how magic works (Spellcraft) and using it when you otherwise couldn't (use magical device). It's considered a suboptimal feat because it doesn't lend itself to combat, but I don't feel that it is at all. I think it's a perfectly sensible feat.

-X

The problem is that, while it is flavorful, feats are a precious resource. My strong inclination towards knowing how magic works is represented by my ranks in Spellcraft, not by a feat that gives a bonus to it. And I usually don't care about UMD. If I wanted to be casting spells (even by the prozy of magic items) I would play a spellcaster.

Generally, I find the +2 to 2 skills feats to be stupid traps. Feats should not just give you a bonus. They should either give you a new thing to do (from Power Attacking to maneuvers through Martial Training) or improve an existing ability/class feature (Extra X, for example, or Elements as One). And no, I don't consider those kinds of feats in the second category.

This said, a skill tax in place of the feat it entirely fine.

Nyaa

2015-02-20, 04:18 PM

Mystic can take Advanced Study (anything SG, I like Call the Soul’s Blade) at 5, Psionic Meditation at 7 and Sleeping Goddess Style at 7 bonus (Shouldn't [style] feats have [combat] tag? Paizo ones do. And only first feats in Paizo chains have [style] tag, hmmm).

Or not.
Can I lose psionic focus as a free action, or regain focus while still focused? This affects if it works at all. Looks like you can, UPsi p131.
How does Sleeping Goddess Style even work with Mystic, if at all? This affects if you can have a nice thing.

And being psionic opens other feats, like psionic weapon and deep impact.

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 04:28 PM

OK, you hated it; I'm honestly surprised. Many, in my experience most, people who have actually played the class, don't. It's considered theoretically superior and in practice it's generally enjoyed immensely. You didn't; I'm sorry to hear that.

Probably because it was fine for it's time -- Hell, it was even good.

But look at the recovery mechanics now.
Harbinger can recover 1/swift and int-mod/claimed death. They can recover maneuvers *outside* of turn, and Claim has soooooo much good feat support that Claim itself is a pretty attractive option.
Zealot can use Aid Another to recover, and gains his Zeal bonus. Recovering Maneuvers helps his allies. Past 3rd level, he can Aid another across the battlefield.
Warlord is in the same boat -- Swift action to gain a boost to attempt do something, that if he succeeds, he gains back a handful of modifiers. If he succeeds, everyone on his team benefits as well. Even on a fail he still recovers one and only takes a -2 for a bit.
Stalker, as a full round, gains a move, +4 AC, and his Deadly Strike damage on his next hit.
Aegis sets up an AoO field, bonus AoOs, and a hefty bonus against Acrobatics to tumble through.

And all of these people can recover 1 as a standard action.
This *BLOWS* ToB recovery out of the water.
Swordsage had a large pool, but had to spend a Full round action for 1 maneuver
Warblade had to spend a Swift followed by a melee attack, or a standard action to do nothing, but his maneuvers known/readied was shredded.
And we know what the crusader does.

It's simply doesn't hold up anymore when compared to it's brothers and sisters. I'd say the worst one would between Aegis and Stalker, but Stalker has Stalker art support and Seize the Opportunity was made for Aegis.

But now we're taking a step back. Like other's have said, the design for the Mystic is sort of ignoring 2/3rds of the Maneuver types; and the random selection will create some serious emotional(and performance) lows when playing the class.

But your argumentation that it's a bad thing to print, that DSP should not do so, and (by implication) either no one will ever enjoy or the people who do are somehow wrong to do so, are all flat-out wrong. It's something that is effective and fun for a lot of people. As it turns out, neither you nor DSP is required to bend over backwards to satisfy the other. You are allowed to dislike something they print, and they are allowed to print something you dislike.

I sincerely doubt they're going to scrap the class and start over because of your personal preferences, since my understanding is that you are not the owner of the company.
And I'd appreciate it if you didn't get rude with me.

I'm doing my best to try to convince people that it's not a good idea to have a random recovery mechanic when your bar is set up so high. This isn't ToB anymore, it's Path of War; and the mechanics should be updated to reflect that.

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 04:39 PM

If there is a way to take anything on the internet, the internet takes it in the worst way possible. You judge me too harshly by what I said and took it entirely wrong. Sincere apologies for any perceived offense, twas not intended as such. My foot lives in my mouth some days.

I'll steal this to apologize for my post earlier, but I did type those words and I do get passionate about things which makes me say dumb things.

ErrantX

2015-02-20, 04:44 PM

I'll steal this to apologize for my post earlier, but I did type those words and I do get passionate about things which makes me say dumb things.

We're good then :smile:

-X

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 04:45 PM

Other thing that came up: to elaborate on the Earth != Acid thing, when people build a character around using elemental Earth, they don't think of throwing acid around. They want to throw rocks at people.

Taking a break from the recovery mechanic to talk about this. I'll agree with this statement, and perhaps take it a step further.

Earth could use Bludgeoning (Boulders) or Piercing (Spiky rocks). I don't know how to fluff in slashing, but earth taking the 'physical' aspect of the damage types would be pretty thematic.

I come from GURPS, so it may just be me, but I've always equated Acid = Water, since they're both liquid.

georgie_leech

2015-02-20, 04:48 PM

Togath

2015-02-20, 04:51 PM

The acid/water thing is a fairly logical connection.

I really do wonder why it was WotC decided earth = acid...
But it doesn't seem like varying could hurt. I mean, I at least think of things like earthbenders when I picture a martial earth magic user.
Acid may be the norm, but there's no reason not to vary, other than trying to fit in with core stuff(and PoW already deviates due to things like maneuvers, or even just things like having an int based tank):smallsmile:

Even if it doesn't become part of elemental flux, there's no reason the earth = earth thing couldn't be used later on in something else(if more disciplines get made, for example).

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 04:55 PM

Yeah, I was actually considering making a Mystic//Stalker who functioned as a character from Avatar. Then I realized the show is still on my watch list. But from what I've seen of it, that is basically how I picture Earth Mystics.

Also, does anyone have any comments for my quick review of Elemental Flux? Fairly accurate? I'm a giant doodoohead? I'm a genius? I'm blind?

ErrantX

2015-02-20, 05:01 PM

Okay, this will be a long one. I'm reviewing Elemental Flux. All of it.

I have not forgotten this, just haven't had time to plow through it. I will try either tonight or tomorrow. Thank you in advance!

-X

stack

2015-02-20, 05:02 PM

TheEmperor

2015-02-20, 05:03 PM

Also, does anyone have any comments for my quick review of Elemental Flux? Fairly accurate? I'm a giant doodoohead? I'm a genius? I'm blind?
All of the above!
Anyways, it was clear enough, and were I ErrantX (*laughter in the distance*) I'd probably give your review some attention, since you've essentially pointed out the main issues.
A strike that gives staggered at first level is too good to be true.

EDIT: Although stack makes the question that occurred to me.

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 05:09 PM

How can daze be a better choice if staggered is overpowered for a given maneuver? Dazed denies all actions. Did you mean dazzled?

This comes from the fact that I both dislike playing casters and rarely seem to actually get to use PoW (my only option for play is PbP, since I GM my IRL group). I kind of forgot what the respective conditions did. Change my Water recommendations from Dazed to Entangled (actually consistent with what later Water gives too)

Doomeye56

2015-02-20, 05:13 PM

The problem is that, while it is flavorful, feats are a precious resource. My strong inclination towards knowing how magic works is represented by my ranks in Spellcraft, not by a feat that gives a bonus to it. And I usually don't care about UMD. If I wanted to be casting spells (even by the prozy of magic items) I would play a spellcaster.

Generally, I find the +2 to 2 skills feats to be stupid traps. Feats should not just give you a bonus. They should either give you a new thing to do (from Power Attacking to maneuvers through Martial Training) or improve an existing ability/class feature (Extra X, for example, or Elements as One). And no, I don't consider those kinds of feats in the second category.

This said, a skill tax in place of the feat it entirely fine.

You word better than I

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 05:54 PM

So, looking at Mystic, I'm trying to put together an unarmed Mystic build. So far, I've determined that 2 levels of Deadly Fist War Soul Soulknife are probably the best way to open. It nets you IUS, a decent damage die, and, most importantly, Focused Offense. I went with War Soul because access to Broken Blade in the early levels is pretty awesome, and gives you some consistent maneuvers for basic functionality when your Mystic RNG screws you (which, any time I try to play one, it will).

I would only dip one level, like I have in the past, but then I realized that I wasn't sure if having a Blade Skill (Flurry of Fists) counted as having the Blade Skill class feature required to take Extra Blade Skill.

The biggest downside to this build that I can see is that it delays taking Elements as One until level 7, since you don't get the third level stance until 6. Note to self: Robot Avatar is best Avatar

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 05:56 PM

Hone Weapon: I was trying to remember where I saw this from, and now I remembered.
There was an old book back in 3.5 called Swashbuckling Adventures by AEG. I particularly liked this book because it gave neat things to martials: Specifically, the Panzerhand(Big gauntlet weapon, a favorite of mine), and a set of weapon 'modifications' that you could toss on your weapon.

In the book, they had a 'Heavy Blade modification', which allowed you to to get an extra 1d4 weapon damage (meaning it multiplied through crit), but the weapon became unweildly, meaning you need an exotic weapon proficiency feat. This is pretty close to hone weapon -- Your weapon's damage is permanently modified (Rather than having to say 'I Sharpen my weapon...' or asking if you have the down time to do so), and it's worth 1 feat. Also it costs you 4 gold, probably the same around the whetstone.

Here's the screenshots from the book about it.

http://i.imgur.com/g95zE4e.png
http://i.imgur.com/EgwXabv.png

Weighted Knuckles, Spikes, Built-in Pistol, and locking grip I believe were all for the Panzerhand, but the rest could be slapped on most weapons IIRC.

deuxhero

2015-02-20, 06:05 PM

Is there a definition of "attack" for boosts? The only one I know of in PF is the one in the Invisibility spell. Can a blaster wizard with Martial Training use Degrade/Assay/Shatter resistance for blast spells?

Almarck

2015-02-20, 06:11 PM

Taking a break from the recovery mechanic to talk about this. I'll agree with this statement, and perhaps take it a step further.

Earth could use Bludgeoning (Boulders) or Piercing (Spiky rocks). I don't know how to fluff in slashing, but earth taking the 'physical' aspect of the damage types would be pretty thematic.

I come from GURPS, so it may just be me, but I've always equated Acid = Water, since they're both liquid.

I think it probably has to do with the fact that there's no real consensus on "earth energy". Water can have cold, and air can have lightning, and fire is fire, but when you think about it, is there an "energy" for earth? It's hard to imagine an earth energy that isn't "just hitting something with rocks", making it hard to make auras and energy enchantments outta the thing. Likely, they choose acid because it was something that could be considered earth energy.

In my case, I always see the acid element less being actual acid, but rather "Corrosive force" as an energy type.

georgie_leech

2015-02-20, 06:14 PM

I think it probably has to do with the fact that there's no real consensus on "earth energy". Water can have cold, and air can have lightning, and fire is fire, but when you think about it, is there an "energy" for earth? It's hard to imagine an earth energy that isn't "just hitting something with rocks", making it hard to make auras and energy enchantments outta the thing. Likely, they choose acid because it was something that could be considered earth energy.

In my case, I always see the acid element less being actual acid, but rather "Corrosive force" as an energy type.

"Decay" also works, and ever since the original Final Fantasy, it's been relatively common in media too.

Tempestfury

2015-02-20, 06:18 PM

I think 'Erosion' might be the better word, but that might just be me.

RedOndjage

2015-02-20, 06:22 PM

In regards to the current debate about the recovery mechanic: What if only strikes were randomized? The Mystic could have a set number of slots for boosts/counters, and a separate pool for strikes that gets randomized? Or, drop the separate slots idea entirely and just stick to randomizing the prepared strikes? I've looked over the class a little bit closer and everything looks great on a mechanical and thematic level, but my only reservation is the opportunity costs that could happen with randomized counters and boosts. I think a change like this would preserve the chaotic nature of the Mystic's initiating, but allow the player to feel safe choosing very situational boosts and counters.

Would you consider this, or any other modification to the Crusader-style maneuver recovery? Or should we stop bringing this up?

Prime32

2015-02-20, 06:28 PM

I think it probably has to do with the fact that there's no real consensus on "earth energy". Water can have cold, and air can have lightning, and fire is fire, but when you think about it, is there an "energy" for earth? It's hard to imagine an earth energy that isn't "just hitting something with rocks", making it hard to make auras and energy enchantments outta the thing. Likely, they choose acid because it was something that could be considered earth energy.You could argue for sonic being "earthquake energy" I guess. :smallconfused:

Eox

2015-02-20, 06:29 PM

For the Elemental Flux 9th level maneuver, why not do something other than a strike? A boost that makes the next maneuver you initiate act as if you were channeling all four elements, for example. Or the first 9th level stance.

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 06:34 PM

In my case, I always see the acid element less being actual acid, but rather "Corrosive force" as an energy type.

"Decay" also works, and ever since the original Final Fantasy, it's been relatively common in media too.

I think 'Erosion' might be the better word, but that might just be me.

The problem with these is that, when you think of attacking people with fire, it's fire. Air, lightning is a common conversion. Water to cold, likewise. But when you think of earth, the mind doesn't go to erosion or corrosive forces. It goes to a big freaking boulder hitting someone in the face.

Togath

2015-02-20, 06:57 PM

You could argue for sonic being "earthquake energy" I guess. :smallconfused:

Sonic does seem like a decent fit. It is waves of kinetic energy striking something(or something like that).

Almarck

2015-02-20, 07:03 PM

Sonic can be attributed more to air and wind though, so not exactly. It vibrates and destroys rock and crystals at the right frequencies but it can only exist in places where an existing medium can convey it. In most cases we'll see, that medium is air.

Force while a good thought doesn't seem like a good fit either. force works with kinetics, true, but it also is more of "raw" energy than it is anything else

And the most obvious fit isn't an "energy" type! How do you have earth energy?

And if we replaced earth, what becomes of "acid"? Would it get folded into water?

Still, I do think maybe the designers probably ended up arguing over this for a few hours. I get the feeling acid was really only decided because they couldn't solve the problem.

But onto other news. I am quite intrigued by the Mystic. It uses Crusader recovery which I think it is pretty sweet. What I want to know is why do people not like Crusader recovery? Is it because you have no choice in the matter?

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 07:03 PM

Yeah, I'd honestly be happier with Sonic than Acid.

Oh, and, off topic of the Mystic, this came up when I was making a Zealot: Martial Power counts as Combat Expertise for prereqs. Great. Unfortunately, it doesn't allow you to use Con instead of Int to fulfill other prereqs. It was an issue because I had a 12 and a 14, and one was going to Int while the other went to Con. If I went to Con I got Martial Power, which fit the character more, but was technically locked out of the Improved Combat Maneuver feats.

TheEmperor

2015-02-20, 07:10 PM

Right, so I'm planning on making an Elemental Flux focused Mystic pretty soon, so here's my question. What type of fighting style works best (as in sword and board, two handed, one handed and empty hand, or unarmed) for the Mystic, numbers wise?

(Before you ask, Keledrath, it's not for Kingmaker, because I'm not planning on breaking it)

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 07:15 PM

I would probably say either unarmed or finesse. For the unarmed option, you'd want the Deadly Fist War Soul Soulknife dip I mentioned earlier for Focused Offense. For finesse, you of course grab Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility, and probably trade Broken Blade for Thrashing dragon.

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 07:45 PM

But onto other news. I am quite intrigued by the Mystic. It uses Crusader recovery which I think it is pretty sweet. What I want to know is why do people not like Crusader recovery? Is it because you have no choice in the matter?
Short story short, it warps your maneuver list or makes your character strength unstable.

If you choose what maneuvers you want, and have a diverse list of counters, boosts, and strikes that are situational, then your power will wax and wane at random due to the randomness of the recovery.

If you choose maneuvers around having them all around the same power level and functionality, then you have a homogeneous list of maneuvers that isn't very exciting, but at least you've got around the random mechanic somewhat.

Turion

2015-02-20, 07:48 PM

sooo... Is there any chance we can get a Card Caster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/card-caster-magus-archetype)-style archetype for the Mystic? Because, with the random maneuvers, throwing weapons as a discipline weapon, and the "uncontrollable magic" vibe, this class would make a perfect Huckster. Unfortunately, it doesn't qualify for Arcane Strike (and, therefore, Deadly Dealer)....

As a side note, looking up the prerequisites made me realize that the Mystic doesn't actually meet the prereqs for any item creation feats; Martial Craftsman says that they can be taken, but doesn't give the ability to ignore the caster-level feat prerequisite. Possibly change it to
You may select item creation feats; treat your mystic level as your caster level for meeting feat prerequisites and when crafting magic items.

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 08:10 PM

Oh, and I realized that I forgot to respond to this earlier, about making Runes a move action: The point is that the thing that makes initiators great is that they can move and strike at the same time. I really do feel that Swift is the right action category for Runes, but the problem is that Elemental Flux has some of the best boosts I've seen.

If the Mystic had access to more movement rider maneuvers (things like Red Zephyr's Strike), then I could see them maybe being able to work Runes into their move action slot, but as it stands, I think making them a move action will be a nerf.

Perhaps allow Mystics to use runes as either a move or a swift, but only one per turn?

In other news, I'm actually planning on writing up an archetype for Mystic that imitates Avatar: TLA once I finish watching it (just started). Some of my points
1. Will get IUS as a bonus feat
2. Will choose an element at level 1. They can only use that element. They get an additional element at level 7, 14, and 20.
3. Altered recovery mechanic: Use a Counter, recover a Strike. Use a Strike, recover a Boost. Use a Boost, recover a Counter. Each maneuver can only be used to recover any given maneuver once per encounter (so if you use Flurry Strike to recover Brawler's Attitude, you can't recover Brawler's Attitude with Flurry Strike again). The goal is to make a fluid, shifting combat style. Also, allow full round action to restart everything.
4. Offer an option to trade armor proficiency for Wisdom to AC (this is something I give most classes. Trade armor for one mental stat to AC)
5. Thinking of trading Runes for a full unarmed damage progression and maybe some bonus Style feats. I would probably come up with several new ones: Basic (3 feats, Fire, Water, Air, and Earth) and Advanced (combinations of the basics)

Prime32

2015-02-20, 08:11 PM

On a completely different topic: Can we get a feat that lets you use firearms for Mithral Current maneuvers... and call it Silver Bullet? :smalltongue:

AGrinningCat

2015-02-20, 08:48 PM

TheEmperor

2015-02-20, 09:13 PM

If we're wishing for feats, I want a Monster Sunderer feat that allows me to make sunder attacks against monster body parts.

Sunder wings so dragons can't fly.
Stab a basilisk in the eye to stop it's gaze attack.
Chop an arm off a humanoid.
Cut the legs off the crabs to make them easier to trip.

Could use the GURPS rules to determine HP for a body part, and called shot rules on how hard the body part would be to hit.

The more I think about it, the more I think:

"Why do we need a feat to do it?"

Like, it's pretty much common sense! "So the thing has a pretty damn powerful axe. Maybe if I chop it's arm off, it can't hold it anymore! Wow!" is the reasoning an 8 Int person could come up with. Or 8 Wis. Or both.

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 09:17 PM

The more I think about it, the more I think:

"Why do we need a feat to do it?"

Like, it's pretty much common sense! "So the thing has a pretty damn powerful axe. Maybe if I chop it's arm off, it can't hold it anymore! Wow!" is the reasoning an 8 Int person could come up with. Or 8 Wis. Or both.

Because you need a feat to do anything in PF. Which leads to why feats that don't let you do something new are generally bad feats to take (my earlier reasoning against the Magical Aptitude feat tax)

As for why it isn't universally available, because you get people saying "I cut his head off" or "I shoot his eye out" aiming for intakills. And then you run into the problem of inversion: What happens when the monsters start doing this to the players? Pretty soon, everyone is missing a limb or three.

Almarck

2015-02-20, 09:20 PM

The more I think about it, the more I think:

"Why do we need a feat to do it?"

Like, it's pretty much common sense! "So the thing has a pretty damn powerful axe. Maybe if I chop it's arm off, it can't hold it anymore! Wow!" is the reasoning an 8 Int person could come up with. Or 8 Wis. Or both.

Because hitpoint damage has to matter.
As much as I like the idea of called shots, there has to be a system in place to make it powerful, but not game breaking.
It also in a sense goes against what hitpoints represent (not just health but the ability to avoid lasting harm).

There would also need to be a system to display the cause and effects of losing X limb on different creatiure formats works

I would however would say that a feat should be taken to do a disable manuver without provoking AoO's (like other CMB checks, though that system too needs fixing)

Also, headshots while I think should be crits, shouldn't instakill and be a seperate feat from doing "chops" without penalty.

stack

2015-02-20, 10:54 PM

Vhaidara

2015-02-20, 11:03 PM

Using one maneuver type to recover another is interesting, though needs a balancing factor. Tracking which maneuver was used to recover which other maneuver is a hassle that I expect the developers would not want to inflict on their players.

Yeah, that's the major part of why I'm not submitting it to DSP for publishing. That and it will probably be terrible :smalltongue:

I just like the idea of flowing from one move to the next. Your Counter sets up your Strike, which gives you space to Boost, which allows you to fake an opening for another Counter. The only reason I added in the rule about no repeats was to prevent something like (Big Damage Boost [Recover AC replace Counter]) -> (Big Damage Strike [Recover Big Damage Boost]) -> (AC replace Counter [Recover Big Damage Strike]). Basically, I don't want people just cycling three maneuvers.

RedOndjage

2015-02-21, 12:57 AM

When Blade Meditation resets your maneuvers, does it reset them like when you start an encounter (All granted maneuvers are random), or like when your maneuvers reset later in the fight (choose two, rest are random)?

Taveena

2015-02-21, 02:48 AM

There's actually a called shot mechanic in Pathfinder already. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/calledShots.html)

Elricaltovilla

2015-02-21, 09:45 AM

@ErrantX: You might want to add the link to the Mystic and Anima Mystic to the first post in this thread. Just sayin'.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 09:54 AM

@ErrantX: You might want to add the link to the Mystic and Anima Mystic to the first post in this thread. Just sayin'.

Well, he did link Mystic, in the quote from Gareth

Elricaltovilla

2015-02-21, 10:05 AM

Well, he did link Mystic, in the quote from Gareth

Never mind then.

Mathias1313

2015-02-21, 12:56 PM

Hey guys had a couple of ideas.

This pertains to Glyphs:
I assume that when you use the Rune or Sigil the duration of 1 rnd + wis starts from when you initiate the Glyph. And this costs a swift action to do so.
Then the Rune activates when successfully attacked.
So do I assume anyone can activate the Rune I put on someone? Or do I have to activate by attacking the person I put it on?
Then the Sigil activates when someone else attcks the person I out the Sigil on or they spend a swift action to use it? Am I correct so far?

I am just clarifying the above as I had suggested changing the initiation action for Glyphs to a move action previously. I still kinda like the idea of using the move action to use Glyohs but was wondering if maybe you could have the duration on the glyphs start their duration once they have been activated but only last the encounter, similar to how you get maneuvers every encounter.
Doing this would allow you to effectively initiate 2 glyphs per rnd that would start their duration when activated. Kind of allowing the Mystic to Buff both himself and allies.
What does everyone think? Is that just Bat crap stupid or would it be a Valid option?

Also, how would Retributive Infusion work instead of Blade Meitation?

Doomeye56

2015-02-21, 01:06 PM

From how i understand glyphs to you use the swift action to Issue one from that point it last to activated or expires, After it is activated it is consumed.

deuxhero

2015-02-21, 02:53 PM

Just realized how useful Dazing Assault is on any initiator with strikes that can attack large numbers of opponents (Eternal Guardian is pretty good at this, but there are decent numbers of maneuvers that can do it)

squiggit

2015-02-21, 03:21 PM

On Flux's 9th. I see two main options here that I think work.

-The attack does some damage of each element and has a save for multiple debuffs of some kind

-The strike functions completely and utterly differently based on active energy type. Fire might have an AoE blast that burns people while Force might have a single big hit like the spell currently is and Acid might be a SoD and Electricity could be a line or another debuff or something.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 03:23 PM

Togath

2015-02-21, 03:25 PM

-The strike functions completely and utterly differently based on active energy type. Fire might have an AoE blast that burns people while Force might have a single big hit like the spell currently is and Acid might be a SoD and Electricity could be a line or another debuff or something.

That could be fun.:smallsmile:

squiggit

2015-02-21, 03:26 PM

Actually, X, would you mind if I posted the idea I sent you into the thread for public display?

For anyone wondering about basics, it was a Full Round Strike that used all 4 elements in different forms.

That sounds pretty nice, and I think something along that lines is the easiest answer. But.. don't you mean 5? Flux can use five energy types.

That could be fun.:smallsmile:

Yeah. This idea is starting to grow on me. It's still one strike, but its functionality can just be completely different based on each elemental type.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 03:32 PM

That sounds pretty nice, and I think something along that lines is the easiest answer. But.. don't you mean 5? Flux can use five energy types.

Fire, Air, Water, and Earth were the four I used. Force isn't actually something you set your element to, it's used on the non-elemental strikes. Though I suppose I could add a shockwave that forces Fort or be knocked prone in an AoE around the initiator.

ErrantX

2015-02-21, 03:51 PM

On my phone atm, but yeah go ahead and post any suggestions for Mystic or Flux / Hourglass. I'll check in when I'm at my computer in a bit.

-X

RedOndjage

2015-02-21, 03:56 PM

I think the damage of certain maneuvers in Elemental Flux need to scale better, especially the ones that don't involve weapon damage. There are a few maneuvers that are ranged touch attacks or line effects that have a fixed damage that is great at the level you get the maneuver, but quickly falls behind. I think these should scale off of initiator level, or enjoy a damage bonus based off of initiating stat.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 04:01 PM

Okay, well, here was the idea I sent to X.

Strike of Elemental Devastation
Elemental Flux (Strike)
Level: 9
Prerequisites: Four Elemental Flux maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 full round
Range: Medium, Any Attack
Target: Varies
Duration:

The ultimate explosion of elemental power can only be unleashed by a master of the Elemental Flux Discipline. When you initiate this strike, each element in turn surges through you. First, you launch a blast of fire at a target location within Medium Range, dealing 80 fire damage in a 30ft burst (Reflex half). Second, freezing cold rushes through you and into your foes, enabling you to make a melee touch attack against any foe within your reach. This attack deals your normal attack damage, and your foe must make a Fortitude Save or be paralyzed for one round. Third, a bolt of lightning erupts from your fingertips, striking all in a 60ft line for 80 electricity damage (Reflex half). Finally, you channel the strength of the earth into a mighty blow, making a normal attack against any enemy within reach that deals an additional 50 damage.

So, you get a fireball, a lightning bolt, a paralysis debuff attached to a weapon touch attack, and a heavy damage strike. The total damage involved in the maneuver is 210 + 2x weapon damage, but it is spread out, with two 80 damage Reflex saves that are subject to energy resistance and a standard attack roll, with all the failure points that includes (AC, miss chance, concealment)

Forrestfire

2015-02-21, 04:11 PM

It needs a more anime name. I like "Four-Element Sudden Death Devastation Strike", myself :smalltongue:

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 04:14 PM

It needs a more anime name. I like "Four-Element Sudden Death Devastation Strike", myself :smalltongue:

You can call it that if you want to, but it would run afoul of my houserule that if the name of your maneuver takes you more than 6 seconds to say, you add an additional round onto the initiation time. :smalltongue:

Doomeye56

2015-02-21, 04:15 PM

I like it but the earth effect is lacking flavor wise. Your burning, freezing, shocking then finally....you hit hard.
Maybe lower the damage bonus and add a prone chance. Shaking the ground under their feet to make them fall.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 04:20 PM

Well, yeah, you hit hard. The idea was you draw upon the strength of the earth.

My imagery for this is with an unarmed Mystic: You launch a fireball, freeze a guy in place with a touch (thinking about swapping those), shoot a lightning bolt, then pull a giant freaking rock hammer out of the ground and turn someone into a puddle.

deuxhero

2015-02-21, 04:34 PM

I expanded on my idea of using Elemental Flux on a pure caster (and wound up going pure manifester)

Did someone say Staggering Entangling Energy Missiles? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399976)

squiggit

2015-02-21, 04:35 PM

It's pretty cool. Shame there's no love for acid-based mystics/flux users tho given that that's one of their four energy types.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 04:48 PM

@Acid damage: I stated my opinion on that earlier. I don't like using Acid for Earth, so I didn't.

Okay, so I'm thinking of scaling back the overall damage of the maneuver, in exchange for more riders. Currently, I'm looking at the following
1. Fire dialed back to 50 damage (Reflex half). Second Reflex save to avoid the raging fire from catching on you (3d6 fire/round until you make a Reflex save to put it out). Every turn you are on fire, Will Save to avoid a fear escalation (shaken, frightened, panicking, cowering) that lasts for one minute.
2. Cold now inflicts 50 damage in a 40ft cone (Fort half). Reflex save to avoid becoming paralyzed (encased in ice) for 2 rounds (3d6 cold/round while paralyzed, fire damage equal to the cold damage they received frees them).
3. Electricity scaled back to 25 (Reflex half) with 25 sonic added (Fort half), targets wearing metal armor take a -5 on their saves. Fortitude save to avoid being Blinded and Deafened.
4. Earth is now a shockwave that emanates out from you (30ft radius). 30 force damage (no save), and Reflex save to avoid being knocked prone.

I'm considering halving the immediate damage and removing the saves against it. The damage is more tokan at this stage anyways, the power is in the debuffs.

squiggit

2015-02-21, 04:50 PM

@Acid damage: I stated my opinion on that earlier. I don't like using Acid for Earth, so I didn't.
I know that, but at the same time acid is still an energy type and not giving people using that energy type anything in the captstone still feels weird.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 04:54 PM

Well, you still get all of the effects. This isn't a "matches your active element" maneuver. This is "unleash the fury of all the elements"

Doomeye56

2015-02-21, 05:00 PM

I like the changes it gives that fulfilling feeling. If you were on the battlefield and saw someone preforming this maneuver you pretty much forced to go "Oh Sh...." While the initiator giggles like a menacing little girl.

squiggit

2015-02-21, 06:01 PM

So I decided to make my own based on the second idea I suggested, complete with cheesy names, no editing and an utter and complete lack of balancing:
Strike of Elemental Devastation
Elemental Flux (Strike)
Level 9
Prerequisite: Four Elemental Flux maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: See Text
Duration: See Text
Saving Throw: See Text

The ultimate display of Elemental might, only performed by the masters of the Elemental Flux discipline. This strike's effects vary based on the user's active energy type when initiating this maneuver:

Earth (Crack the Earth) - The fury of Earth empowers the wielder. Make a single melee or ranged attack against an enemy within reach, treating both your damage and reach as if you were two size categories larger. A successful strike causes a mighty shockwave to emnate from your blow, forcing all enemies within Close range (including the target) to take 50 (reflex half) acid damage and make a fortitude save (DC 19 + initiating modifier)

Water (Icy Grip of the North Wind) - A 20ft cone of ice and sleet erupts from the intiator's fingers, dealing 60 cold damage (fort half) to all enemies in its blast. Enemies struck must make a second fortitude save or be frozen solid. Frozen enemies are treated as paralyzed and must make a fort save at the beginning of their turn to break free, failure causes them to take your initiating modifier in cold damage and remain paralyzed for another round. This continues until the creature breaks free or dies.

Air (Thunder's Judgement) - The user fires a 50-ft line of electricity that deals 100 electric damage (reflex half). The initiator may attempt to disarm any enemy struck wielding a metal weapon, using their initiating modifier instead of strength for the CMB check. Enemies wearing metal armor must make a fortitutde save or be staggered for one round

Fire (Rising Wind Scorches the Heavens) - The initiator release a scorching blast of elemental fire that strikes any number of targets in Medium range. Make a single melee or ranged attack that deals an additional 60 damage to each target. This attack deals fire damage. Each enemy struck must make a saving throw or catch fire, using the maneuver's DC rather than normal for avoiding the fire or putting it out on subsequent rounds.

Force (Mighty Sundering) - Regardless of active energy type, the user may instead choose to express their strike as a blast of pure arcane force, making a single melee attack against a target within reach that deals 80 points of additional damage and removes all resistances or immunities to their active energy type the target possesses for a number of rounds equal to your initiating modifier
Can replace any instance of whole numbers with 10d6, 12d6, 18d6, 15d6 and 12d6 for each energy type respectively.

Togath

2015-02-21, 06:11 PM

I know that, but at the same time acid is still an energy type and not giving people using that energy type anything in the captstone still feels weird.

Even if it doesn't match your opinion, is it any less valid of one to have though?
By the logic of "differing opinions are wrong" why should we pay yours any respect, if you wont to ours?

It's rude to automatically assume "this is wrong because it's not my idea of how it should be" :smallsmile:

As for something that might fit everyone's feelings, what about a breath-weapon-esc effect? Maybe with the damage type chosen when it's used regardless of your current attunement(with force having it's die sized reduced by one).
It would be a simple and versatile maneuver, and easily fit whatever fluff you wanted to have.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 06:15 PM

I generally like yours. Just a few problems.
1. The acid damage makes absolutely no sense on your Earth option. It's even described as a shockwave, which should be Force or Sonic. There is nothing to even imply Acid there.
2. Fire is seriously underwhelming. The reason I added the fear escalation onto mine is mostly that I feel that should be part of being on fire. YOU'RE FREAKING ON FIRE WHY AREN'T YOU PANICKING?
3. Force needs a duration. As it stands, you simply strip resistances and immunities from the target forever with no save

squiggit

2015-02-21, 07:29 PM

Even if it doesn't match your opinion, is it any less valid of one to have though?
Naw. I don't think his opinion is wrong. I actually agree with him that Earth using Acid is weird and that if I went back in time to bug Wizards/Paizo Earth would do bludgeoning damage.

Which would actually be kind of cool if, say, elemental blood sorcerers with an earth-blood had bludgeoning damage burning hands or somesuch.

In 4e earth attacks do mixed physical/sonic(thunder by 4e terms) damage and that's pretty cool too.

I generally like yours. Just a few problems.
1. The acid damage makes absolutely no sense on your Earth option. It's even described as a shockwave, which should be Force or Sonic. There is nothing to even imply Acid there.
Yeah you're right. I had originally written the strike in a different fashion and I guess forgot to change the back half of it.

2. Fire is seriously underwhelming. The reason I added the fear escalation onto mine is mostly that I feel that should be part of being on fire. YOU'RE FREAKING ON FIRE WHY AREN'T YOU PANICKING?
For some reason I thought being on fire had an effect other than 1d6 damage a round.

You know that's really, really bizarre. Being lit on fire does absolutely nothing other than a minor amount of damage each round? It doesn't impede your combat ability at all? That's just weird, wonder what Paizo was thinking with that. I'll find an appropriate debuff to put there.

3. Force needs a duration. As it stands, you simply strip resistances and immunities from the target forever with no save
Oh. ****ty copy-paste. Supposed to be initiating modifier rounds.

Doomeye56

2015-02-21, 07:39 PM

@squiggit

The first time I read it i pictured the the shockwave acid as a bringing forth a fount of magma with Acid representing the lava.

Kreig (Borderlands 2) approves of running around on fire like its a new shirt.

Taveena

2015-02-21, 07:56 PM

Can I make the suggestion that the attacks probably should originate from the wielder's weapon? Originating from their fingers is a little more spellcaster-y than initiator-y.

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 08:11 PM

Well, like I said, my imagery was an unarmed Mystic.

I'm watching Avatar: The Last Airbender as I write these, if that explains anything.

Taveena

2015-02-21, 10:18 PM

Which is great! But I feel it should also work well for Mystics who instead want to be Thor. ^^

EDIT: Actually, there's an idea for a feat! Is there any way you could add an option for Mystics who want to specialize in a single element type? Something like doing extra damage or having a higher DC while in your Favored Element?

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 10:21 PM

Which is great! But I feel it should also work well for Mystics who instead want to be Thor. ^^

Fluff text :P. Things can come from your weapons just as easily. Some Elemental Flux maneuvers mention the energy coming from your blade, I doubt anyone is going to have a problem saying that your fists or hammer qualify for that.

Taveena

2015-02-21, 10:33 PM

I know. Generalized fluff text would help with that, though!

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 10:37 PM

EDIT: Actually, there's an idea for a feat! Is there any way you could add an option for Mystics who want to specialize in a single element type? Something like doing extra damage or having a higher DC while in your Favored Element?

I would probably go with modifying Discipline Focus for this purpose.

I know. Generalized fluff text would help with that, though!

It's kind of hard to write fluff if you can't actually name anything. Trust me, there's a reason I don't even write fluff for my homebrew classes: That's the player's job, not mine. Classes are just a mechanical chassis that the player puts fluff into.

AGrinningCat

2015-02-21, 10:38 PM

Quick question: Why is a Primal Disciple's initiator modifier wisdom? I think Charisma would be a better fit for them (Keys off of Intimidate, Diplomacy which they get as a free skill)

Vhaidara

2015-02-21, 10:41 PM

Quick question: Why is a Primal Disciple's initiator modifier wisdom? I think Charisma would be a better fit for them (Keys off of Intimidate, Diplomacy which they get as a free skill)

Because, as far as I can tell, they draw their knowledge from the wisdom of their ancestors. I personally think it is far more fitting than Charisma would be. I actually have a player who is using Primal Disciple in a gestalt game, and it lined up perfectly with the character he was looking to build.

deuxhero

2015-02-22, 12:17 AM

I'd prefer Con based honestly. All the rage powers that allow a save use con to determine their DC. You can already have a dex based initator (Martial Training) and strength will if a discipline is based on climb, swim or escape artist (or paizo makes a trait that makes another skill based on strength).

Vhaidara

2015-02-22, 12:28 AM

Nyaa

2015-02-22, 03:07 AM

Now that I read these submissions, I want Prismatic Sphere: the stance.
Or a strike that replicates spells. Air - whirlwind, earth - earthquake, fire - incendiary cloud, water - tsunami.

Taveena

2015-02-22, 09:05 AM

"You may spend one point of animus as a free action when you initiate a maneuver of another discipline to change the damage type to your elemental attunement in place of the normal damage type it would inflict otherwise."

So does this change ALL damage? Like if a strike would do Piercing/Profane, does this change it to pure Electricity/Acid/Cold/Fire?

EDIT: Slightly larger problem: there's absolutely no explanation of how the Runic Mysteries work - when the abilities are active, what action it is to initiate them, what Blazes and Pyres are...

Vhaidara

2015-02-22, 10:32 AM

Or a strike that replicates spells. Air - whirlwind, earth - earthquake, fire - incendiary cloud, water - tsunami.

Please no. That's just boring and lazy, to be completely honest.

Doomeye56

2015-02-22, 10:33 AM

Arnt Blazes and Pyres the lvl8 and lvl15 upgrades for the Anima Mysteries?

On that note the Frozen Heart Anima Mystery's Nimbus gives cold resistance equal to your Mystic level while its Blaze gives cold resistance 10. Is this 10 in addition? or an overwrite of the Nimbus cold res. till the Nimbus cold res. surpasses it at lvl 11?

edit: The Raging Storm Anima Mystery Nimbus states that it does the elec. damage once per Kid.

I need a bunch of orphans.

Forrestfire

2015-02-22, 10:37 AM

"Parent-bane maneuvers, coming to a DSP book near you!"

Doomeye56

2015-02-22, 10:39 AM

Perfect option for that Children of the Corn setting.

Fenryr

2015-02-22, 11:05 AM

Please pardon me if this was asked before: Is it possible to retrain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining) maneuvers?

Vhaidara

2015-02-22, 11:09 AM

Please pardon me if this was asked before: Is it possible to retrain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining) maneuvers?

Well, every initiator class has the ability to swap a maneuver they know for any maneuver they qualify at 4th and the every even numbered level. So there's that. And if you pick up a maneuver through Martial Training, you can retrain Martial Training into a different instance of Martial Training with different maneuvers.

Fenryr

2015-02-22, 11:12 AM

Well, every initiator class has the ability to swap a maneuver they know for any maneuver they qualify at 4th and the every even numbered level. So there's that. And if you pick up a maneuver through Martial Training, you can retrain Martial Training into a different instance of Martial Training with different maneuvers.

I know every even numbered level after level 4 is possible. Right now we have a downtime of almost a year. I wish to change some maneuvers. Is it possible?

Nyaa

2015-02-22, 11:23 AM

Please pardon me if this was asked before: Is it possible to retrain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining) maneuvers?
I can't see why not. However, it's reasonable to require that you need to train with trainer who knows the maneuver you want to retrain into.
Maybe check if there's friendly nearby Psion with Psychic Reformation known?

Shouldn't Massacre be free action? As far as I understand, if you used swift action (Say, a boost or Claim. Or used a counter last turn.), you can't use immediate action while it's still your turn.

Togath

2015-02-22, 11:39 AM

Are 1/encounter maneuver granting items(like in ToB) likely to be added?

Milo v3

2015-02-22, 05:28 PM

Please pardon me if this was asked before: Is it possible to retrain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining) maneuvers?

Just treat it as though manoeuvres known are spells known.

Nyaa

2015-02-23, 10:47 AM

If I have level 1 maneuver (no prerequisites) and level 3 maneuver (requires 1 maneuver known), can I swap level 1 maneuver to level 5 maneuver (requires 2 maneuvers known)?

malonkey1

2015-02-23, 10:50 AM

If I have level 1 maneuver (no prerequisites) and level 3 maneuver (requires 1 maneuver known), can I swap level 1 maneuver to level 5 maneuver (requires 2 maneuvers known)?

As long as, by the end, you know the correct number of maneuvers, you're gold.

wooper

2015-02-23, 11:19 AM

Golden Lion Command is the only style feat in their respective feat chain that doesn't have a skill rank prerequisite at all. Is that a desired design decision? It just struck me as odd considering all the others go 3 -> 7 -> 11, 13, 15 as the chain progresses.

Ammutseba

2015-02-23, 12:40 PM

I found a misprint in the info about Primary Fury maneuvers. It says that Stance of Aggression gives you
While in this stance the disciple suffers a -2 penalty to AC and inflicts an additional 1d6 points of damage per eight initiator levels on successful attacks and that's not what it means. This should be +1d6 at level 1, and +1d6 more at levels 8 and 16. :)

Nyaa

2015-02-23, 01:51 PM

Speaking of which, is there a reason Pugilist Stance doesn't scale?

stack

2015-02-23, 01:54 PM

Thrashing dragon whirlwind would be ridiculously nasty on a kali-style eidolon. Late game issue due to the lost HD capping your skills low, coming online at summoner level 14.

Interestingly, its better for a regular summoner than for a mirrored soul reduced the lost EP the archetype gets limited how many arms you can grab.

ErrantX

2015-02-24, 12:04 AM

Okay, this will be a long one. I'm reviewing Elemental Flux. All of it.

And we all know the 9th needs to be changed. And you have my submission for a replacement.

I have reviewed and made several changes to maneuvers in Elemental Flux correspondingly (I've not touched 9th yet).

I've also added in an Animus Augmentation section; what do you think?

-X

ErrantX

2015-02-24, 12:05 AM

I found a misprint in the info about Primary Fury maneuvers. It says that Stance of Aggression gives you and that's not what it means. This should be +1d6 at level 1, and +1d6 more at levels 8 and 16. :)

Post this in the errata thread (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=3066.html) on the DSP forum please? Thank you!

-X

Taveena

2015-02-24, 12:53 AM

As mentioned, as 'Energy Resist' is not a thing, could Eldritch Shield be something like...
"As part of this counter, you may change your active element. You gain Resistance 10 against your active element. "

Forrestfire

2015-02-24, 01:21 AM

I looked into the Elemental Flux doc, and there are still some glaring issues that should probably be fixed, just in the 1st-level maneuvers. I haven't gotten through most of it because I'm tired, so here's what I saw in those, at least:

Eldritch Shield: Energy damage is not a defined thing in Pathfinder, so overall, the maneuver's a bit muddled. It's obvious what it's meant to do, but it could definitely be worded better. For example, maybe something like:
"By drawing upon the elements, you are capable of defending against energy effects. You can initiate this counter when you are affected by an attack, spell, or effect that deals Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity, or Sonic damage. You gain energy resistance 10 against that attack, spell, or effect."
.

Elemental Nimbus: This stance has some awkward grammar and also still lacks a duration to Water's stagger condition. Stagger doesn't have anything saying it ends after a round in the conditions summary, so as written it lasts forever (and the "can't be staggered more than once per round" line is just irrelevant in that case).

Channeling the strength of the Elements lends your attacks strength and fury. If your active element is fire, while in this stance, your attacks deal additional fire damage equal to your initiation modifier. If your active element is water, your attacks stagger an opponent on a failed Fortitude save (DC 11+ initiation modifier); a target cannot be staggered by this stance more than once per round. when you successfully hit an opponent with an attack, they must make a Fortitude save (DC 11 + initiation modifier) or be staggered for 1 round; a target cannot be staggered by this stance more than once per round. If your active element is air, you gain a +2 to attacks against enemies wearing metal armor and deal an additional 1d4 points of electricity damage on a successful hit. If your active element is earth, the strength of the earth empowers your weapon, and it deals damage as if it was one size category larger (this stacks with other size increasing effects).

.

Fluctuation Movement: Oh boy, this one's got a fun exploit. Specifically, it's got a duration of 1 round, and the Air ability gives you the ability to jump as a free action with a +10ft bonus. Pathfinder removed the text about multi-round jumps from 3.5, and replaced it with a sentence about maximum movement in a turn that actually doesn't mean anything, because movement isn't capped by the round, but by your action type. So you get infinite free-action jumps, limited by the DM going "that's enough free actions this round." Also, for Fire, it seems like the precedents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/expeditious-retreat) for increasing movement speed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/haste) have a slightly different wording. There's also precedent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wheeling-charge-combat-local)for wording about turning in charges (unless it was meant to let you zigzag multiple times).

Coating your feet in the power of the elements, you alter your movement to grant you a burst of speed and maneuverability. If your active element is fire, your base land speed increases by 10 feet for 1 round. If your active element is water, you can make one turn of up to 90 degrees as part of the move when charging this round. If your active element is air, you can make a single jump this round as a free action, with a +10 bonus to your acrobatics check. If your active element is earth, your movement ignores difficult terrain during this round.

.

Spark Strike: Might want a comma after "if successful" in the second sentence.
.

Variable Flux: There's just some awkward grammar on this one. Also, I added the duration I assume is right for fire, based on Elemental Jolt.

Filling your weapon with the power of the Elements, you lash out with barely-contained eldritch power. Make a single attack as part of this strike. If you hit, you deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of your active element. This strike has additional effects based on your active element. If your active element is fire, the target must succeed on a Reflex save (or risk catching or catch on fire for 1d4 rounds. If your active element is water, targets the target must succeed on a Fortitude save or become dazed for 1 round. If your active element is air, you gain a +4 bonus to the attack roll if the target is wearing metal armor or wielding a metal shield. If your active element is earth, the target must succeed on a Will Save or become sickened for 1 round. All saving throw DCs against this strike difficulties are DC 11 + initiation modifier.

(On that last one, I'm not sure how best to write the last sentence about DCs. My proposed fix is not ideal, probably)

Also, it might just be me, but I find the abrupt changes between second- and third-person text in this to be a bit jarring. Personally, I'd suggest picking one and sticking to it, instead of randomly swapping in the middle of a maneuver.

EDIT: Since I'm apparently not tired enough to go to bed yet, I went through some of the level 2s as well.

Arcane Shield: Bad wording all around, in my opinion. Spells do not have "touch or ranged touch elements", for one... (Also, there's no mention of crumbling in the main text, so the "more" is probably unnecessary. That's just a preference thing though.)

You rely on your unique insight into eldritch energies to create a shield of energy which protects you from an attack. When you are the target of an enemy’s attack (including touch or ranged touch spell attacks), you may initiate this counter to defend yourself by making . Make a Spellcraft check, opposing using the attack roll of your opponent as the DC. and If you are successful, the attack is negated. This is a force effect and may be used to block incorporeal attacks. This effect may also defend you from spells with touch or ranged touch elements.
Animus augmentation: You may spend one point of animus with this counter to have the force shield crumble more slowly after the attack, passively granting you a +2 shield bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

.

Degrade Resistance:Just some general cleanups here. Also, 2nd/3rd-person stuff. I just made everything 2nd-person, because it ends up cleaner unless you rewrite everything.

As a disciple of the Elemental Flux, you understands how to use elements to assault those normally resistant to them you. When you initiate this boost, you ignore the first 10 points of energy resistance for to your active element when you deal damage to an opponent the target possesses for 1 round, and your next attack deals an additional 1d6 points of damage of your active element.
Animus augmentation: You may spend a single point of animus with this boost to inflict further harm, increasing the damage of this boost to 2d6 points of damage.

.

Eldritch Fang: I stole from Mountain Hammer's wording.

Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (see text)

The Elemental Flux disciple fills their strike with eldritch energy to overwhelm the senses of their target. The next attack you make inflicts an additional 1d6 points of force damage and automatically overcomes damage reduction. ignores any damage reduction the target may possess. On a successful hit, the target must also succeed on a Fortitude Save (DC 12+ initiation modifier) or be staggered for 1 round.
.

Elemental Jolt: One does not make on a reflex save and only risk catching on fire if you fail. I also changed some wording to match Variable Flux.

Saving Throw: Reflex partial (see text)

The disciples of Elemental Flux learn to empower their strikes not just with the energy of magic, but the effects of the elements themselves. Make a single attack as part of this strike. If you hit, you deal Your attack deals an additional 2d6 points of damage of your active element. and This strike has additional effects based on your active element. If your active element is fire, the target must succeed on a Reflex save or risk catching catch on fire for 1d4 rounds. If your active element is water, targets the target must succeed on a Reflex save or be dazed for one 1 round from chilling cold. If your active element is air, the target must succeed on a Reflex save or be knocked prone from the force of the blow. If your active element is earth, the target must make a Reflex save. If they fail, they take an additional 2d6 points of acid damage at the start of your next turn. takes an additional 2d6 acid damage on the following round on a failed Reflex save. All saving throw DCs against this strike difficulties are DC 12 + initiation modifier.

.

Energy Strike: Cleanups following the precedent set by Elemental Jolt and Variable Flux. Also, "on the following round" is a bit ambiguous, timing-wise. Earth references armor, but the strike does not actually target their armor, so I'm guessing that's a relic of a previous version. Earth also need a duration, since there's none listed, and perma-sickened until cured is probably not really in-line for a 2nd-level maneuver.

Saving Throw: Reflex or Fortitude (partial)

The discipleYou fills the enemy with harmful elemental energy, dealing damage and causing them to suffer debilitating effects. As part of this strike, make a ranged touch attack against an enemy within 30-ft. The attack deals 3d6 points of damage of your active element, and has additional effects based on your active element. If your active element is fire, the attack also deals target must succeed on a Reflex save or take 2d6 points of fire damage at the start of your next turn. the subsequent round on a failed Reflex save. If your active element is water, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be entangled for a number of rounds equal to your initiation modifier. If your active element is air, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be is pushed back 15 feet. unless they succeed on a Fortitude Save. If your active element is earth, the target suffers 1d6 points of acid damage at the start of your next turn, and must succeed on a Fortitude save or be sickened for [duration] rounds. on the following round (which ignores the armor’s hardness if non-magical; adamantine armors retain their hardness) and is sickened on a failed Fortitude save. All saving throw DCs against this strike difficulties are DC 12 + initiation modifier.

Elemental Flux Stance: Awkward wording on some things, energy resistance not being specified, and some general grammar errors. Also, I changed the first sentence to second-person to match the rest.

Filling both his your body and soul with the power of the elements, the disciple of the Elemental Flux discipline you opens himself yourself up to new powers. While in this stance, your attacks with weapons inflict an additional 2d6 points of elemental damage of your active element, you gain energy resistance 15 to your active element, and additional you gain one of the following effects based, on your active element. If your active element is fire, your body is filled with warmth and healing light, granting you fast healing 1, and you radiate light glow like a torch, as if targeted by under the effect of a light spell. If your active element is water, your body is inured against debilitating effects, granting you a +2 untyped bonus to saves. If your active element is air, your movement and perception is are heightened, granting you a +4 bonus to initiative and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. If your active element is earth, then the strength and durability of the earth suffuses your bones, granting you DR 5/adamantine.
.

Lance of Power: The area is listed in the maneuver description, no need to list it again in the text. I stole wording from lightning bolt. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lightning-bolt) I feel like my proposed rewording of the augmentation is a bit awkward in the very last bit, so if anyone has any ideas about how to fix that, it'd be awesome to hear. I had gone and looked for psionic powers with augmentation and a maximum augment, but only found Hostile Empathic Transfer in a quick search.

Saving Throw: Reflex (half)

With a swing of his blade, the disciple you releases a rippling line of elemental energy. When you initiate this maneuver, you release a 30-ft. line of energy that deals 5d6 points of damage of your active element to each creature within its area. Creatures caught in the line effect can make a Reflex save (DC 13+ initiation modifier) to take half damage.
Animus augmentation: You may spend one point of animus to add an additional 1d6 points of damage to this strike upon reaching your 6th initiator level. You may spend additional points of animus to increase the damage on this strike by 1d6 per point spent, to a maximum number of dice equal to your initiator level (maximum 14d6). but never to exceed your initiator level (maximum 14d6).
.

Energy Spark: Firstly, I think this is a really neat maneuver. Stuff where you attack and then fire off a bunch of blasts at the same time is cool :smallbiggrin:
Secondly, "extra attack" is not the wording you want here, since that wording is already taken by Haste. I stole wording from Scorching Ray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/scorching-ray).

The disciple You fills the air with elemental energy which explodes as he you strikes his your target. When you make an attack, you can initiate this boost to fire a ray of energy at a creature within 30 feet. This ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 3d6 points of damage of your active element. make an extra attack as a ranged touch attack against a creature within 30-ft. that does 3d6 points of energy damage of the same type as your active element.
Animus augmentation: You may spend two points of animus to create an additional ray. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but both rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of you. targetcreature with another ranged touch attack when using this boost.
.

Raging Flux: You accidentally a verb in the augmentation.

The disciple of Elemental Flux knows how to strike with such eldritch force that it drives his foes backwards. When you initiate Make a single attack as part of this strike, make an attack that deals an additional 4d6 points of damage of your active element. For every 10 points of damage you do deal, the target of this attack is pushed 5 feet away from the initiator. back or away from the initiator 5-ft. If this movement causes the target to collide with a solid object (such as a tree or a wall), it suffers an additional 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage from striking the surface. Targets hitting solid objects (such as trees or walls) suffer an additional 1d6 points of damage from striking the solid surface.
Animus augmentation: You may spend one point of animus to push the target an additional 5 feet. ft. to the push back effect of this strike.

Also, you need to find-and-replace most of your references of "instant" for duration in maneuver descriptions, because Pathfinder uses "instantaneous." Although honestly, many of the ones marked "instant" should probably be something like "1 round; see text" or maybe "Instantaneous; see text." The duration is the duration of the entire effect, after all.

EDITn: I've got some other stuff to work on currently, but if you'd like, I can go through the rest. Sorry to basically go through and rewrite a bunch of stuff you wrote >_>

Ammutseba

2015-02-24, 11:14 AM

I found a typo in the Primal Warrior Stance blurb, under the Primal Fury discipline.

The martial disciple and the equipment he is using is considered one size category larger.

should be

The martial disciple and the equipment he is using are considered one size category larger.

Swaoeaeieu

2015-02-24, 12:31 PM

Am i just really bad at looking, or is there no link in the first post to the piercing thunder discipline?
I was just told (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400528-pathfinder-Shield-spear-path-of-war-questions) it would fit in a character i am planning, but can't find it.

Is there a document like the other about this discipline i can look at?

Tempestfury

2015-02-24, 12:32 PM

Swaoeaeieu

2015-02-24, 12:37 PM

Its with the Templates at the bottom. The OP hasn't bothered to mention that yet.

ok, i found it.
Thanks!

Nyaa

2015-02-24, 12:42 PM

Piercing Thunder was supposed to undergo a rework, and I'm not sure if it's finished yet.

deuxhero

2015-02-24, 01:03 PM

Latter elemental flux seems to drop the effects changing based on active element and instead starts only changing your damage type.

Brilliant Aura has luminous armor's dysfunctions. Quoting from the relevant dysfunctional rules thread

I think this is right:

Luminous Armor gives a -4 penalty on melee attacks made against the target because of the armor's brightness, this includes attacks made with Reach Weapons.

However, it doesn't confer the penalty to ranged attack rolls made in melee, because it's somehow less bright against guys with bows

Edit: It also confers the penalty to a Bloodstorm Blade using the Thunderous Throw ability

(the last one not really relevent) It also effects blind creatures. Base it on distance and say it doesn't apply to blind creatures.

malonkey1

2015-02-24, 06:00 PM

I found a typo in the Primal Warrior Stance blurb, under the Primal Fury discipline.

should be

Nope. Grammatically correct. "Martial Disciple" and "Equipment" are separate subjects.

DarkSonic1337

2015-02-24, 10:26 PM

Nope. Grammatically correct. "Martial Disciple" and "Equipment" are separate subjects.

Incorrect, as the conjunction "and" groups them together and makes them a plural subject. It's the same reason we say he and she are instead of he and she is.

malonkey1

2015-02-24, 10:44 PM

Incorrect, as the conjunction "and" groups them together and makes them a plural subject. It's the same reason we say he and she are instead of he and she is.

...I have never once said "he and she are". I use "they".

Togath

2015-02-24, 10:57 PM

Incorrect, as the conjunction "and" groups them together and makes them a plural subject. It's the same reason we say he and she are instead of he and she is.

Er, what?
"The martial disciple and the equipment he is using is considered one size category larger." sounds perfectly fine to me.

Forrestfire

2015-02-24, 11:01 PM

It's still incorrect. The coordinating conjunction turns the sentence into

"[The martial disciple and the equipment he is using] is considered one size category larger"

... Which doesn't work, because "is" can't talk about a plural unless you're applying some other rules to it. "Are" (or "are both") would be the correct wording. Here's (http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conjunctions.htm)some good reading on the topic (and here's some nostalgic listening (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPoBE-E8VOc) that doesn't really have much bearing on the discussion here, but is still fun and stuck in my head).

EDIT: "The martial disciple is considered one size category larger, as is his equipment." would also work, and keep the "is", but one needs to add something to fix it, overall.

Swaoeaeieu

2015-02-25, 02:44 AM

i think i might have found a typo.
look at the last sentence of Iron Lancet Strike

Iron Lancet Charge
Piercing Thunder (Strike)
Level: 4
Prerequisites: One Piercing Thunder maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 full round action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instant

The disciple's knowledge of how to deliver a powerful charge that delivers bone-shattering force is unparalleled. Make a charge attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If successful, your strike deals an additional 6d6 points of damage; if using a discipline weapon, your striked does an additional 6d8 damage instead.

there is an extra d at the end of strike.

Am i helping?

ErrantX

2015-02-25, 01:44 PM

Seconded

As for Anima Mystic my vote would be to combine it back in.

Anyone else feel this way? I know Jade felt it would clutter up the class and take away the focus from maneuvers; it does give you a reason however to build up animus using maneuvers as opposed to spending it willy nilly as you’ll access the passive anima abilities that way. I’d love more input on this if anyone’s game.

If I did add it in, I'd likely want to thin out some of the other class features... might be too heavy and OP then.

When Blade Meditation resets your maneuvers, does it reset them like when you start an encounter (All granted maneuvers are random), or like when your maneuvers reset later in the fight (choose two, rest are random)?

Choose two, rest are random. It’s a whole new cycle.

Hey guys had a couple of ideas.

This pertains to Glyphs:
I assume that when you use the Rune or Sigil the duration of 1 rnd + wis starts from when you initiate the Glyph. And this costs a swift action to do so.
Then the Rune activates when successfully attacked.
So do I assume anyone can activate the Rune I put on someone? Or do I have to activate by attacking the person I put it on?
Then the Sigil activates when someone else attcks the person I out the Sigil on or they spend a swift action to use it? Am I correct so far?

Right. A rune is activated by attacking the target, a sigil is activated if you’re attacked or by the bearer activating it on their turn.

I am just clarifying the above as I had suggested changing the initiation action for Glyphs to a move action previously. I still kinda like the idea of using the move action to use Glyphs but was wondering if maybe you could have the duration on the glyphs start their duration once they have been activated but only last the encounter, similar to how you get maneuvers every encounter.
Doing this would allow you to effectively initiate 2 glyphs per rnd that would start their duration when activated. Kind of allowing the Mystic to Buff both himself and allies.
What does everyone think? Is that just Bat crap stupid or would it be a Valid option?

Also, how would Retributive Infusion work instead of Blade Meitation?

I wanted glyphs to be short duration so that way you’d always have something to spend animus on. If I put them to for the encounter durations, then I’d strongly consider maybe adding animas back to the class just so your animus doesn’t build for nothing.

I don’t know what Retributive Infusion is, I’m afraid.

Arnt Blazes and Pyres the lvl8 and lvl15 upgrades for the Anima Mysteries?

On that note the Frozen Heart Anima Mystery's Nimbus gives cold resistance equal to your Mystic level while its Blaze gives cold resistance 10. Is this 10 in addition? or an overwrite of the Nimbus cold res. till the Nimbus cold res. surpasses it at lvl 11?

edit: The Raging Storm Anima Mystery Nimbus states that it does the elec. damage once per Kid.

I need a bunch of orphans.

I need to fix up anima mystic, but basically the more animus you build, you can build a bigger anima passively. At 8 and at 15 your animas can build bigger for bigger bonuses. The Frozen Heart one I need to fix.

Also. Typo.

I know every even numbered level after level 4 is possible. Right now we have a downtime of almost a year. I wish to change some maneuvers. Is it possible?

Might be worth us adding in a sidebar for or something somewhere. Otherwise, even levels and DM fiat.

Speaking of which, is there a reason Pugilist Stance doesn't scale?

No real reason, I just didn’t scale it. Not really sure why.

-X

squiggit

2015-02-25, 01:51 PM

I say keep separate. The default mystic has enough going for it as is and I like having the charisma option.

Vhaidara

2015-02-25, 01:54 PM

I don’t know what Retributive Infusion is, I’m afraid.

I think it was a suggestion for a new name. Nothing mechanical.

ErrantX

2015-02-25, 02:37 PM

I think it was a suggestion for a new name. Nothing mechanical.

Oh, I'm a dummy. :smallredface:

Anyone else not feeling Blade Meditation as name? Lemme know! As far as Piercing Thunder goes (still not really jazzed on the new name but I dunno what else to call it), I need to give it another once over and decide what I'm doing with it. I know after the fact that Broken Blade and Primal Fury damage caps got a little too high for my liking and I want to reduce what Thunder does a tad. I also want to make it less reliant on horses/mounts, so it might get a little extra in the way of maneuvers so it doesn't dilute itself from "pole arm discipline"; horse is being more regulated to "extra stuff". Basically I don't want to make taking stuff in this discipline suck if you don't have a horse.

-X

Taveena

2015-02-25, 03:00 PM

stack

2015-02-25, 03:15 PM

Nyaa

2015-02-25, 03:24 PM

Basically I don't want to make taking stuff in this discipline suck if you don't have a horse.
Maybe change extra bonuses trigger from "when using discipline weapon" (who don't use them anyway) to "when mounted"?
I've found enough good stuff for a level 6 character (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1090929) who never intended to use mounts. Somehow it struck me as the most damaging discipline that doesn't require jumping through IUS or Quick Draw that time. I'd take ST if it didn't overlap with Harbinger insight bonuses.

ErrantX

2015-02-25, 03:30 PM

Okay, let's go through a run down of stuff I've quietly changed in Mystic and Flux. Lots.

Many Flux maneuvers got touched on based on Keledrath's review of it. I'd honestly tackle it like it was new.
I also added in an animus augmentation mechanic to some of the maneuvers as sort of a test it out thing. Let me know what you think.
Maneuvers grant you two - count 'em TWO - specifically chosen maneuvers by YOU from your readied maneuvers before randomizing the rest as granted maneuvers. When the cycle ends (i.e. no new maneuvers to grant or if you use Blade Meditation) you reset and start at square one and get TWO chosen maneuvers and the granting starts all over again.
I've altered starting animus to 1 + Wisdom modifier to keep it in line with the alterations to Tap Animus.
I've changed the damage on Blade Meditation to be significantly better and based it on your active element.
Changes to Sorcererous Step for use out of combat.
Spell Dodge replaced with Withstand Spell to make it less like Evasion+.
Tried to clarify Quell Magic a bit.
Removed silly damage to self on Font of Animus
Increased potency on Arcane Defense to add AC as well as saves.
Instant Enlightenment comes online a little earlier.
Made some adjustments to Hone feat and eliminated Improved Hone.
Made some adjustments to Tap Animus feat.
Added Extra Granted Maneuver feat.
Changed a few glyphs (Brilliant Aura, Ferrous Shell and Magnetic Blade)

Yeah.

I think that's it.

Working fixing the stupid stuff that I must have accidentally deleted out of anima mystic because I am a dumb. :smallcool:

-X

Vhaidara

2015-02-25, 03:33 PM

I'll do another rundown of Flux sometime tonight or tomorrow. I have a session tonight, and I'm hoping to throw a Mystic at the party.

As far as your other changes, I like them. You still have something of the random nature, but you can ensure that you have access to a view key maneuvers, which makes situational ones viable.

Vhaidara

2015-02-25, 04:02 PM

Elricaltovilla

2015-02-25, 04:04 PM

So, making my Mystic for tonight, I realized that the damage bonus from Discipline Focus stacks. I'm making a Gestalt Mystic//Deadly Fist War Soul Soulknife, so both Broken Blade and Elemental Flux are reasonable Discipline Foci, and it's bringing his damage pretty high

Discipline focus damage doesn't stack with other instances of Discipline focus as the bonuses both have the same source, the discipline focus feat. You would only gain the bonus to DCs and add damage to any extra discipline weapon groups that weren't already affected.

stack

2015-02-25, 04:08 PM

Elements as one now only requires discipline focus and a 3rd level stance. Thank you for making this change.

Allowing the first maneuvers granted to be chosen is also a great improvement.

Magnetic blade seems like an automatic pick for most mystics unless you know you aren't fighting enemies with metal armor. I suppose that category includes a large swath of monsters, making it somewhat campaign dependent. When you can use it, it is pretty amazing to turn your strike into a touch attack at the cost of a swift (using the glyph and a strike together ends up animus neutral after all).

Vhaidara

2015-02-25, 04:10 PM

Are you sure? They are both untyped, and it's from Discipline Focus (Elemental Flux) and Discipline Focus (Broken Blade)

Elricaltovilla

2015-02-25, 04:13 PM

Are you sure? They are both untyped, and it's from Discipline Focus (Elemental Flux) and Discipline Focus (Broken Blade)

Its Discipline Focus Subset: Elemental Flux, and Discipline Focus Subset: Broken Blade. They're both still discipline focus and that's where the bonus comes from.

stack

2015-02-25, 04:23 PM

ErrantX

2015-02-25, 04:27 PM

EF1 Elemental Nimbus stance - no duration on water's stagger effect. The 'cannot be staggered more than once per round' clause seems odd. Do you mean the target only has to save 1/round? Obviously you can't stagger a staggered creature as the condition would just overlap.

Addressed. Staggering lasts for one round.

Also, I realized that Magnetic Blade was too hella pimp. I swapped it with Ferrous Shell. Sorry folks.

Edit: Don't want to double post. Made some significant changes to Anima Mystic - as in it should be actually playable now. Let me know if it's still weird or if it's missing rules. I think I caught everything (how to build animas, flares, it's all Charisma now, etc).

-X

stack

2015-02-25, 04:48 PM

(I went off the lnk in the OP, hope I'm looking at the current document)

EF1 - variable flux (strike) -> save verses daze and save verses sickened each for 1 rnd are hardly equivalent conditions to inflict, even .

EF2 - Elemental jolt water dazes, energy strike entangles, each for 1 round on a failed fort save. Even though entangled makes them easier for allies to hit, I'd still rather daze them every time. Seems like a bigger power differential between the maneuvers than for the other elements.

EF 3 - Elemental Flux Stance - I have no objection to unlimited fast healing 1. Some people will complain about any form on unlimited healing at level 5.

EF 3 Lance of Power - augment seems expensive to use after a few levels unless you reall feel the need to burn some animus, making it age poorly.

None of the third level strikes vary their effect other than damage type based on element, which is disappointing. It would be nice for at least one boost or strike per level to have varied effects.

Milo v3

2015-02-25, 06:40 PM

Force Majeure says that it uses makes the strike with "raw arcane energy, unaligned to any elemental forces, this strike relies on pure magical force to damage its target", but then deals active energy damage.

Tempestfury

2015-02-25, 08:47 PM

I'm just going to unsubscribe... I'm usless at giving feedback and I'm never going to get into a game to actually test the classes...

Chris Robin R2

2015-02-25, 11:02 PM

I'm against putting the Anima stuff back in. The class already has plenty to do, and I don't like the anima part as much... plus I find it kinda confusing.

Doomeye56

2015-02-26, 12:57 AM

Okay, am I missing something? Because I can't actually find any explanation on the Anima Mystic page on why/how you gain access to Nimbus/Flare/Blaze/Pyre. Can you always use them? Do you need a certain amount of Animus to do so (I'm getting this impression but I can't find it mentioned anywhere)? Why are they called that?

Your Anima Mystery abilities activate when your Animus exceeds the its starting amount by a minimum of 1.

I support recombining because it really help solidify the support role by giving it the area control effects.

Maybe i'm reading it weird but the new wording on Sorcerer's Step isnt really clear on it being used outside of combat as a full round action.

AGrinningCat

2015-02-26, 01:40 AM

Okay, let's go through a run down of stuff I've quietly changed in Mystic and Flux. Lots.

Maneuvers grant you two - count 'em TWO - specifically chosen maneuvers by YOU from your readied maneuvers before randomizing the rest as granted maneuvers. When the cycle ends (i.e. no new maneuvers to grant or if you use Blade Meditation) you reset and start at square one and get TWO chosen maneuvers and the granting starts all over again.
Added Extra Granted Maneuver feat.

♪
Can extra Granted Maneuver be taken multiple times?

Also I wish I could to a run through with this again, but classes/homework suck and I'm already spending enough time not doing it.

deuxhero

2015-02-26, 03:44 AM

New hone weapon is fine (Arcane Strike for the entire party), if a bit bland. Few small problems:
A (cross)bow is a piercing weapon (and archery's large number of attack with low weapon die makes this really attractive). Suggestion: "melee or throwing weapon or 50 arrows/bolts"
There is at least one way of shortening the time it takes to use a whetstone (weapon bearer squire fighter archetype) that's left in the dark with this.
The prep time at the start of each day add up pretty quickly. Let it overlap with preparing manuvers.

stack

2015-02-26, 07:07 AM

♪
Can extra Granted Maneuver be taken multiple times?

Also I wish I could to a run through with this again, but classes/homework suck and I'm already spending enough time not doing it.

No clause allowing it, so no. Probably would conflict with the design paradigm.

ErrantX

2015-02-26, 10:08 AM

No clause allowing it, so no. Probably would conflict with the design paradigm.

No, just didn't think of it while I was writing it. I was at work and in a hurry to run out the door.

I'll add in a clause, but it doesn't grant you an extra chosen maneuver, it'll just grant you extra granted for the random flip.

-X

AGrinningCat

2015-02-26, 11:51 AM

No, just didn't think of it while I was writing it. I was at work and in a hurry to run out the door.

I'll add in a clause, but it doesn't grant you an extra chosen maneuver, it'll just grant you extra granted for the random flip.

-X

With the 4 bonus feats, it's possible to push your available maneuvers to the point where you would be refreshing every turn. It's excessively cost prohibitive(Nearly all your feats), but it's a variation of the 'idiot crusader'. Something to keep in mind. Maybe limit your chosen maneuvers to half your readied ones?

ErrantX

2015-02-26, 11:57 AM

Something that Jade has brought to my attention is that it could be misconstrued that Elemental Flux is more tied to its owning class (Mystic) than say other classes previous to it (Scarlet Throne with Warlord or Cursed Razor with Harbinger, for examples). Such is not my intent and I want to clarify my intent so we can work together to get the writing for the rules to more easily reflect this.

Elemental Flux at a base gives you an active element mechanic and the means to change it. Meaning a stalker or a zealot could pick it up, and change up their stuff. If they took the Tap Animus feat, they could use the animus mechanics (I am totally not 100% on using these, just so we're clear, it was suggested and I'm seeing if they have traction or not).

A Mystic's Elemental Focus allows for them to change the damage type of their maneuvers (including Flux if applicable) and have them cause damage instead as their active element (i.e. a mystic with active element of fire using a Broken Blade maneuver could do fire damage instead of say piercing damage if he was using a spear).

This is my intent, this is what I was going for. If I've missed the mark here, then lame, let's get this writing tightened up and make sure we're all on the same page. Mystic owns Flux for sure, but it could be anyone's with a Tradition or a trait or something. I don't want you to think that your class would suck without Flux.

-X

ErrantX

2015-02-26, 11:59 AM

With the 4 bonus feats, it's possible to push your available maneuvers to the point where you would be refreshing every turn. It's excessively cost prohibitive(Nearly all your feats), but it's a variation of the 'idiot crusader'. Something to keep in mind. Maybe limit your chosen maneuvers to half your readied ones?

No. Two. Firmly. Unless you get the feat. Then three. I don't see an idiot crusader coming out of this.

Edit: I misunderstood.

Okay, hrm, yeah, I see what you're saying.

Maybe leave it at one then. Still prevents it, but if you took it with a bunch of feats then you get a derp-sader. So just one. I will leave it.

-X

Vhaidara

2015-02-26, 12:02 PM

A Mystic's Elemental Focus allows for them to change the damage type of their maneuvers (including Flux if applicable) and have them cause damage instead as their active element (i.e. a mystic with active element of fire using a Broken Blade maneuver could do fire damage instead of say piercing damage if he was using a spear).

Okay, I caught that Elemental Focus was actually decidedly meant for non-Flux maneuvers. What I missed was the ability to turn any type of damage into energy damage. I thought it was only existing energy damage, which, in my mind, essentially meant that the Mystic could do non-fire Solar Wind

ErrantX

2015-02-26, 12:06 PM

Okay, I caught that Elemental Focus was actually decidedly meant for non-Flux maneuvers. What I missed was the ability to turn any type of damage into energy damage. I thought it was only existing energy damage, which, in my mind, essentially meant that the Mystic could do non-fire Solar Wind

The idea was that maneuvers are how a mystic expresses his magical ability and this let them express it elementally, a hall mark of evocation and conjuration largely.

-X

AGrinningCat

2015-02-26, 12:17 PM

No. Two. Firmly. Unless you get the feat. Then three. I don't see an idiot crusader coming out of this.

-X

I'm tired and misread what clause you were adding it (I was thinking clause -> can be taken multiple times). I just need like, a day to sleep. Maybe more.

Elemental Flux having an animus augmentation is kinda strange -- Sleeping Goddess could get away with it because it granted you power powers, plus more than one class used power points. Only one class uses Animus (Unless we're being held out on), so in order to get the full use out of Elemental Flux you have to take the feat support for it or be a mystic.

On the flip side, Taking the Tap Animus feat by itself doesn't do anything outside of giving you a pool -- You either have to take additional feats or be using Elemental Flux to get something out of it.

I'm too tired to think right now, but I want to super the idea of animus allowing you to modify all maneuvers rather than just elemental flux, allowing Tap Animus to be useful as a stand alone feat.

On a stranger note, I wonder how many pools of energy I could fit into one character. Animus, Vitae, Psionics, Ki, Akashic energy... I wonder if I could cram some primal and divine in there to round out the set. Pathfinder Unchained is supposed to add Stamina pool, right? I could be a living font of energy! (...Making it useful, however, might prove to be a challenge.)

edit: Elemental flux having an animus augmentation, not having an animus pool.

ErrantX

2015-02-26, 01:14 PM

SURVEY TIME

Mystic. Love or hate it, it's intent is to be a somewhat mobile martial buffer by using its maneuvers, glyphs, and whatever else to make allies better and enemies to hate them.

How do you feel we could make Mystic a better martial buffer (and please let's not bring up the recovery mechanic! :smallamused:).

Points of reference:

Similar: Warlord fills a similar role with its gambits, class features, and access to Golden Lion. He's your buddy and wants you to succeed.

Opposing: Harbinger fills an entirely opposite role, in that they are mobile controllers that inflict debuff and harm upon a foe.

So how are we feeling? Can we make Mystic do its job better? What are we doing right, wrong, and what could we do better?

ADDENDUM: Would adding animas back into the class through Anima Mystic clutter it too much and lose focus from maneuvers, or would the added power/buffs & debuffs not eclipse the maneuvers as they're dependant on maneuvers to work. Basically want to know opinions on how the archetype would influence this role.

-X

Vhaidara

2015-02-26, 01:23 PM

ErrantX

2015-02-26, 01:56 PM

That's part of why I was thinking of changing the action type for glyphs but I fear that by removing that bottle-neck for actions, it's going to make them TOO efficient.

-X

Doomeye56

2015-02-26, 01:56 PM

Well, neither Flux nor Riven is very good at supporting allies, which limits you pretty much to glyphs for supporting. Which, as it stands, will limit either your Boosts or your movement. Given that Boosts are my favorite part of both disciplines so far and movement is one of the biggest advantages of an initiator over a full-attack martial, I'm not a fan of that being the only recourse.

Kinda why I felt that Anima should be tied back in, as half of the Mysteries give some sorta aura debuff. So you could still be mobile and support your allies with more then just damage. And I like of the idea of Animus being for more then just spending as quick as possible.

AGrinningCat

2015-02-26, 02:06 PM

Punch a glyph into a dude
Have friends punch that glyph that's on the dude
Glyph activates for friend punching that dude, doing horrible things to that dude or giving allies boons for punching that dude.
You support friends by making them do what they want to do to.

Example: Glacial blade gives you 1d6 damage for the bearer.
Counter example: Glacial Blade is placed on an enemy, and now grants 1d6 (probably needs to be less with this iteration) to anyone attacking the target.

Solo power slightly weakened.
Allied power is increased.

Might be able to make them dual state -- As is on bearer, weaker on enemies (But usable by multiple allies). Sort of like Slow Burn, but for everything.

Mystic class should be doing the heavy lifting for the buffer role, but in keeping in theme with it's striker part, it should award aggression. By putting 'hit me for candy' 'buffs' on enemies, you both buff your allies and keep in touch with your striker side.

Maybe place runes and sigils on ground? Zephy's Alacrity could act like those speed up stripes in racing games, while slowing down enemies who try to go through them. Walls of fire could provide cover for a back line, while shooting through it could add fire damage to arrows/bullets/spells. Icy Rune traps to freeze enemies or corral them into positions you want.

Vhaidara

2015-02-26, 02:53 PM

Another problem I've noticed: Piercing Thunder only has 2 groups of discipline weapons. Every other discipline has 3.

ErrantX

2015-02-26, 03:10 PM

ADDENDUM: Would adding animas back into the class through Anima Mystic clutter it too much and lose focus from maneuvers, or would the added power/buffs & debuffs not eclipse the maneuvers as they're dependant on maneuvers to work. Basically want to know opinions on how the archetype would influence this role.

I wanted to mention this as well. I'm going to keep animas separate but available in the archetype. I need to make some more anima using feats so any suggestions on that front would be handy.

-X

ErrantX

2015-02-26, 03:11 PM

Another problem I've noticed: Piercing Thunder only has 2 groups of discipline weapons. Every other discipline has 3.

Not bug, it's a feature. Solar Wind has 4. Standard is three, but as it's a spear/pole arm discipline, it gets two.

-X

AGrinningCat

2015-02-26, 04:02 PM

I wanted to mention this as well. I'm going to keep animas separate but available in the archetype. I need to make some more anima using feats so any suggestions on that front would be handy.

-X

Anima to bull rush/pull/reposition/trip CMB to help reinforce the idea of a battle field controller.

stack

2015-02-26, 04:09 PM

EF 6 - Elemental Destruction Ring - does more D6 damage (14d6) than your initiator level (11 is the earliest you can get it). Intentional? Makes it nice when you first get it, but most straight blast maneuvers don't significantly exceed the initiator level like that.

Levels 3 & 4 have no variable effects other than for the stance. Neither do 6-9.:smallfrown: The varied effects really set the discipline apart in my mind, though it works without them. The general rider effects are less interesting though. I can see how the varied effects are a pain to write and balance though.

Vhaidara

2015-02-26, 04:17 PM

By the way, I favor keeping Anima Mystic separate. I like stat swap archetypes. Makes things easier for me (I'm very generous with class stat swaps).

One of my players is looking at combining the Anima Mystic and Mirrored Soul Summoner for a Gestalt

Forrestfire

2015-02-26, 04:42 PM

I also like keeping Anima Mystic separate, for exactly the same reason. Stat swap archetypes make it much easier to build more varied concepts.

Mathias1313

2015-02-26, 05:19 PM

I like the idea of the Anima mystic but there are some problems I have noticed. I went through the Runic Mysteries and gave my opinions and some thoughts.

Consuming Flame
Nimbus -I think this should either be 1d6 fire damage per attack or just a static 1d6 fire damage to everything within range at the begingin of your turn. As it is this is barely useful.
Flare -Since this costs 1 animus and is a standard action, this dosent seen very good as 1d6 fire damage. What about if you spend the 1 animus and it lets use use the 1d6 Fire damage as an Iterative attack? So it works with BAB and/or Rapid shot?
Blaze -Not sure about this one as the nimbus says it works againsts people who attack you but now in the Blaze it says it engulfs friends and foes and you can ignore a certain amt of allies. This ability dosent make sense.
Pyre -This ability means pretty much nothing as you have to wait 10 rnds without using any animus before this comes online.

Tidal Flood
Nimbus - I like this.
Flare - This is ok, I have no problem with this although I would prefer if it did something like I suggested in Consuming Flame.
Blaze - I like this.
Pyre - This not bad for a 15th lvl ability but has the same problem all the Pyre abilities have... you have to wait 10 rnds without using any animus before this comes online.

Unyielding Stone
Nimbus - I like this
Flare - I will just say this for pretty much all the Flare abilities. I would prefer something like I suggested in the Consuming Flames.
Blaze - I really like this ability. Just to clarify though, does the 20ft radius move with you? I assume yes.
Pyre - Not a bad ability, however, see previous Pyre abilite comments. I would suggest maybe giving something extra for any Pyre Mystery that gives a subtype that dosent really do anything, like earth.

Cascading Wind
Nimbus - I like this
Flare - See previous Flare comments
Blaze - I like this
Pyre - See previous Pyre comments. Also what does it mean that allies take shelter within and recieve benefits? Do they just get your Nimbus and Blaze abilities or can they use flare as well?

United Spirit
Nimbus - Interesting, I like it.
Flare - See previous Flare comments.
Blaze - Interesting, not sure if I like it though.
Pyre - See previous Pyre comments.I like this

Unending Shadow
Nimbus - I like this
Flare -See previous Flare comments.
Blaze - I like this but realize that with this and the nimbus you get 150% of your lvl as a bonus to stealth.
Pyre -See previous Pyre comments.I like this

Relentless Light
Nimbus - Not sure you need to mention that dazzled creatures cannot be further blinded. As far as i know dazzle and blind dont function like shake and frightened.
Flare -See previous Flare comments.
Blaze - I really like this ability
Pyre -See previous Pyre comments.I like this

Dead Scream
Nimbus - Flavorful, I like it.
Flare -See previous Flare comments.
Blaze - Hmm, does this work like the spell fear? Which panicks? or does it work like a fear aura that shakens things? needs clarification.
Pyre -See previous Flare comments.I like this

Frozen Heart
Nimbus - Meh, this is kinda lackluster, thematic, but lackluster.
Flare -See previous Flare comments.
Blaze - This is crazy, I love it.
Pyre -See previous Flare comments.

Iron Hand
Nimbus - Not bad, I like it
Flare -See previous Flare comments.
Blaze - Nice, I like it.
Pyre -See previous Flare comments. Strong abilities, keep in mind this Pyre has no mention of ignoring teammates, so your they may hate you.

Raging Storm
Nimbus - Compare this to Consuming flame.
Flare -See previous Flare comments.
Blaze - I think I like this
Pyre -See previous Flare comments.

As I mentioned in the individual mysteries my biggest problem right now is that the Pyre ability can only be used 10rnds after combat starts and that is only if you use a maneuver every rnd and do not spend a single Animus. This i see as a glaring problem as we all know most combats dont last a full 10 rnds, especially at higher lvls. I also dont like the fact that as I am building Animus I cannot spend any on my abilities.
I think if you are going to leave things they way they are now, then the Pyre abilities should be devastating or change it so there is no threshold to reach in order to use the abilities.

Also, I had mentioned in a previous post that I would have like an Elemental Flux stance that allowed you to use energy attacks as weapon attacks governed by Bab and feats and things, but having finally read the Abimus Mystic I think the Flare abilities should reflect this.
I suggest changing the Flare abilities to you spending 1 Animus and allowing you to use a Ranged energy attack, governed by the Mystery, that works with iterative attacks and feats like rapid shot and things like that. Give it a 30ft range, maybe increase it every 4 or 5 lvls. Not sure whether they should be touch or normal attacks, maybe make the energy attacks touch and the more physical ones doing normal attacks.

I would also like to suggest a couple other things.
First I would rather have les Mysteries. As it is you start with 2 and then gain 3 more. I think it would be more interesting if you started with one and gained no more than 2 more. My reasoning for this is that I see the Mystic more of the general energy user and buffer and the Animus Mystic as more of a focused energy user.
Second, I think it would be a better idea to normalize the Aura ranges. Through all the Mysteries, you have 10ft, 15ft, 20ft, and 30ft, ranges for all sorts of different abilities and especially with so many mysteries available... keeping track of all the auras is gonna be a pain.

Also, as a side note because I just read the Capstone ability and it allows you to use 2 Mysteries at once. Nowhere in the actual Mystery does it mention that you can only use 1 at a time. Unless I am way over tired and didn't see it and it so I apologize.

Anyway, this is my 2 cents. Let me know what you guys think.