Yet another grappling thread. Improved Grab, wild shape, etc.

[Drakos Viren]

Hello everyone,

I have some questions I was hoping you all could shed light on. I am currently a player in the Midnight campaign setting (LoTR where Sauron wins, basically), and I have the ability to shapeshift into a bear. In this case, a dire bear. Please let me know if I have a handle on the following, or if I'm getting it wrong, or help out if you can:

1) As a Dire Bear, I will have improved grab. This ability means that if I hit with one claw, I will have the option of using a free action to immediately make a grapple check without provoking. The standard routine is claw, claw, bite. If I successfully grapple after either claw, the remaining attacks are forfeit. The taking advantage of Improved Grab on a hit is optional.

2) Standard Improved Grab rules state that upon successfully grabbing, you deal no extra damage, unless you have constrict (which I may have at some point). On each successful grapple check after the initial grab, you deal damage with the natural weapon that started the grapple. In this case, 2d4+10 Str for a claw. Is this on EVERY grapple attempt, including ones my opponent makes? Do I shred them if they try to escape and fail?
a) Does this also mean that if I choose the "Deal damage to your opponent" option and succeed, I would get 1) Constrict damage, 2) Claw damage for succeeding on a grapple check with improved grab active, and 3) claw damage for the action I was taking? (1d8+10)+(2d4+10)+(2d4+10)? 1d8+4d4+30 seems a bit much. And potentially twice on my turn. We're around level 8.

3) With improved grab, I also have the option to conduct the grapple with the offending claw alone, for which I would take a -20 penalty on grapple rolls, not be considered in a grapple myself, and could then use my remaining attacks. Does this mean that, unlike in a full grapple, I could potentially grapple 2 separate enemies, getting 1 grapple attempt on each for the appropriate claw, and be able to bite someone as well? I cannot find rules on this bit anywhere.

4) I also have improved grapple. Since I am a sentient bear, I may very well opt to just make a grapple attempt on a high AC target that I cannot otherwise hit. If I do so,
a) Do I do damage with the natural attack that I am sacrificing to get the grapple attempt, or is it unarmed damage for a large creature (this would be rather nonsensical)? If this is the case, it would just be better to do this forever and attack touch AC, no? (This seems abusable, based on the encounter types our DM has. But I roll low with statistically impossible frequency.)
b) Can I conduct the grapple at -20 if I do use this method?
c) I am assuming that constrict would activate on each successful grapple check. Is that correct? What about claw damage, would that also be only for Improved Grab cases, or any form of grapple?


Any and all help/clarification/confirmation would be MUCH appreciated. If you can confirm or are unsure about something specific, can you call out specific locations or note what would be a DM call? SRD is fine!

Thank you all!

[Crake]

You can attack in a grapple with natural weapons at a -4 penalty to hit. Thus, if you hit and grapple with your first claw, you can still attack with your second claw and bite, but at a -4 penalty.

[Drakos Viren]

I recall reading somewhere, but cannot find where at the moment, that you can only attack with one natural weapon while in a grapple, would that not already be the natural weapon that initiated the improved grab? Also, if that were the case, initiating a grapple and then letting go would be more effective than continuing. Depending on your BAB, you'd get claw (grapple), claw -4, bite -4, instead of whatever iterative attacks were determined by your BAB.

[Urpriest]

Hello everyone,

I have some questions I was hoping you all could shed light on. I am currently a player in the Midnight campaign setting (LoTR where Sauron wins, basically), and I have the ability to shapeshift into a bear. In this case, a dire bear. Please let me know if I have a handle on the following, or if I'm getting it wrong, or help out if you can:

1) As a Dire Bear, I will have improved grab. This ability means that if I hit with one claw, I will have the option of using a free action to immediately make a grapple check without provoking. The standard routine is claw, claw, bite. If I successfully grapple after either claw, the remaining attacks are forfeit. The taking advantage of Improved Grab on a hit is optional.

Essentially. The one thing to keep in mind is that while in a grapple you get attacks determined by your BAB, while when you're not grappling you get one attack per natural weapon. The rules never clarify how these two rules coincide when you begin your turn not grappling and end your turn grappling. Presumably, you lose any remaining natural weapon attacks, but still get any remaining attacks from BAB. (Remember that in general you'll want to be making those BAB-based attacks in bear form anyway, whether from a Mouthpick Weapon or Improved Unarmed Strike, but it may not be worth taking the -5 secondary penalty on your other attacks until your BAB is higher.)



2) Standard Improved Grab rules state that upon successfully grabbing, you deal no extra damage, unless you have constrict (which I may have at some point). On each successful grapple check after the initial grab, you deal damage with the natural weapon that started the grapple. In this case, 2d4+10 Str for a claw. Is this on EVERY grapple attempt, including ones my opponent makes? Do I shred them if they try to escape and fail?
a) Does this also mean that if I choose the "Deal damage to your opponent" option and succeed, I would get 1) Constrict damage, 2) Claw damage for succeeding on a grapple check with improved grab active, and 3) claw damage for the action I was taking? (1d8+10)+(2d4+10)+(2d4+10)? 1d8+4d4+30 seems a bit much. And potentially twice on my turn. We're around level 8.

Rules Compendium clarifies that you get the 2d4+10 only on grapple checks to damage your opponent, not on all grapple checks. You would get Constrict, plus claw damage, but not claw damage twice.



3) With improved grab, I also have the option to conduct the grapple with the offending claw alone, for which I would take a -20 penalty on grapple rolls, not be considered in a grapple myself, and could then use my remaining attacks. Does this mean that, unlike in a full grapple, I could potentially grapple 2 separate enemies, getting 1 grapple attempt on each for the appropriate claw, and be able to bite someone as well? I cannot find rules on this bit anywhere.

Broadly speaking, yes. This is why the feats that reduce that -20 penalty are called Multigrab and Greater Multigrab (located in Serpent Kingdoms). Note that you'd have to take the "not actually grappling" penalty on both grapples if you chose this option, once you're treated as fully grappling one opponent you can't grapple the other unless you're part of the same grapple.



4) I also have improved grapple. Since I am a sentient bear, I may very well opt to just make a grapple attempt on a high AC target that I cannot otherwise hit. If I do so,
a) Do I do damage with the natural attack that I am sacrificing to get the grapple attempt, or is it unarmed damage for a large creature (this would be rather nonsensical)? If this is the case, it would just be better to do this forever and attack touch AC, no? (This seems abusable, based on the encounter types our DM has. But I roll low with statistically impossible frequency.)

You don't sacrifice a natural weapon attack to do this, you sacrifice a BAB attack. You would do unarmed damage as a large creature when you make checks to deal damage, since you didn't use Improved Grab.



b) Can I conduct the grapple at -20 if I do use this method?
c) I am assuming that constrict would activate on each successful grapple check. Is that correct? What about claw damage, would that also be only for Improved Grab cases, or any form of grapple?


Since you're not using Improved Grab you can't do the -20 method, and you don't deal claw damage on subsequent grapple checks. You would still deal constrict damage.



You can attack in a grapple with natural weapons at a -4 penalty to hit. Thus, if you hit and grapple with your first claw, you can still attack with your second claw and bite, but at a -4 penalty.


I recall reading somewhere, but cannot find where at the moment, that you can only attack with one natural weapon while in a grapple, would that not already be the natural weapon that initiated the improved grab? Also, if that were the case, initiating a grapple and then letting go would be more effective than continuing. Depending on your BAB, you'd get claw (grapple), claw -4, bite -4, instead of whatever iterative attacks were determined by your BAB.

The rules for grappling state:


You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Some people interpret this as meaning that you can't attack with two different weapons in a grapple no matter what, while others think it merely means you can't use the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack. Regardless, even if you can use multiple natural weapons, while in a grapple you use your BAB attacks for them rather than getting one attack per natural weapon, since the only way to make attacks while in a grapple is to use up attacks granted by your BAB.