Pact Magic Mechanic for EK & AT

[Kane0]

Okay so I was thinking about how only the warlock gets the cool short rest casting and how the fighter relies on short rests far more than extended ones and the idea came to me, what if the Eldritch Knight (and by extension, the Arcane Trickster) operated by short rest casting rather than the vanilla kind?

For example when you first hit Fighter (or rogue) 3 and grab your casting subclass you get your spells known as normal but instead of a table of per day spell slots you have the per short rest spell slots that are treated as your highest available spell slot. Being only a partial caster you would never get beyond 4th level spell slots and you would only get at most 2 of those floating slots per rest.

So how would that impact things? Eldritch knights would now be entirely short rest based again like battlemasters, multiclassing would work better between them and warlocks, their overall casting is a little better because spell slots are always at top available level but they are forced to ration a little bit more.

Hmm, actually come to think of it multiclassing rules for pact magic would need to be attended too.
So lets say for example you combine levels of short rest (pact) spellcasting to determine your highest level spell slot and how many per rest you get jut like other casters use the multiclass caster table, then spells known are not combined from your multiclass casting classes. So much like how per day spellcaster multiclassing works.

What do people reckon? Cool idea? Broken? Treads on warlocks turf too much?

Sample EK & AT Casting Table



Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level


3
2
2
1
1st


4
2
3
1
1st


5
2
3
1
1st


6
3
4
2
1st


7
3
5
2
2nd


8
3
5
2
2nd


9
3
6
2
2nd


10
4
7
2
2nd


11
4
7
2
2nd


12
4
8
3
2nd


13
4
9
3
3rd


14
4
9
3
3rd


15
4
10
3
3rd


16
4
11
3
3rd


17
4
11
3
3rd


18
4
12
3
3rd


19
4
13
3
4th


20
4
13
3
4th




Sample Multiclassing Rules

- Add together your levels in classes that use short rest casting. EK and AT use 1/3 their level and warlocks use their full level.
- Cantrips known, spells known and invocations are not added. You are treated as single classed in each of your classes for determining these.
- Use this combined level on the table below to determine your number of spell slots and what spell level those slots are treated as



Level
Spell Slots
Slot Level


1
1
1st


2
2
1st


3
2
2nd


4
2
2nd


5
2
3rd


6
2
3rd


7
2
4th


8
2
4th


9
2
5th


10
3
5th


11
3
5th


12
3
5th


13
3
5th


14
3
5th


15
3
5th


16
3
5th


17
4
5th


18
4
5th


19
4
5th


20
4
5th

[Giant2005]

Are you suggesting they get 1/3 Warlock casting? If so, that would be really bad.
At level 3 they would have a single level 1 spell slot.
At level 6 they would get a second level 1 spell slot.
At level 9 those slots would increase to level 2.
At level 12 their spell slots would neither increase in magnitude nor quantity.
At level 15 their spell slots would increase to level 3.
At level 18 their spell slots would neither increase in magnitude nor quantity.

As you can see, EKs would kind of be screwed under that system - they would only ever have two spells per short rest at their disposal, a maximum of level 3 spells which arrives at level 15 and at levels 12 and 18 they would gain no spellcasting benefits at all.

[Kane0]

Not exactly 1/3 what the warlock gets, just use the same mechanic. When multiclassing they would count as 1/3 for adding to the multiclass table as usual.
While i'm here i could probably smooth out the spells known progression too.

[xyianth]

I think it could work. Here is how I'd do the slot/level progression:

levels 3-5: one 1st level slot
level 6: two 1st level slots
levels 7-11: two 2nd level slots
level 12: three 2nd level slots
levels 13-17: three 3rd level slots
level 18: four 3rd level slots
levels 19-20: four 4th level slots


I'd keep cantrips and spells known the same as before. This gives them similar amounts of spells per day (assuming 2 short rests/day) as they currently get. (slight boost at levels 3, 6, 12, 18, 19, 20; slight reduction at levels 16 and 17) This keeps the level progression the same as before, but gives them the auto-scaling short rest recovery slots like warlock.

If you go with this variant, I'd count these levels as 1/3 warlock levels for the purpose of multiclassing. This means they don't boost the slots per day of other casters, but can be used to boost effective warlock level for determining slots and slot level. I'd add the special rule that if your EK or AT level afforded you more slots than your effective warlock level would, you can use the higher number of slots.

[Easy_Lee]

The reason the short rest thing is fine for warlocks is because they get effectively two archetypes, a pact and a patron, and also get invocations, several of which enhance their attack cantrip into the best in the game. If not for that, warlock casting would be severely limited. Besides that, Eldritch Knights and arcane tricksters have casting as a backup to their abilities, rather than a core thing like warlocks. They won't necessarily need to cast every short rest.

So no, I don't think this would be good for either archetype.

[calebrus]

I created something similar, but I ended up with a different table.
Basically, I thought that the short rest mechanic required a lower slot level (which is why Warlocks stop using slots and begin using Mystic Arcana after 5th).
So I dropped the max slot level down from 4 to 3, and gave them one more slot to compensate.

This was made for a Pactbound Rogue subclass, which is why the cantrips mirror the Rogue's instead of the EK's.
CL - cantrip - known - slots - level - invocations
3 ----- 3 ----- 2 ------ 1 ----- 1st ----- 1
4 ----- 3 ----- 3 ------ 1 ----- 1st ----- 1 (+1 known)
5 ----- 3 ----- 3 ------ 1 ----- 1st ----- 2 (+1 invo)
6 ----- 3 ----- 4 ------ 2 ----- 1st ----- 2 (+1 known, +1 slot)
7 ----- 3 ----- 5 ------ 2 ----- 2nd ----- 2 (+1 known, +1 level)
8 ----- 3 ----- 5 ------ 2 ----- 2nd ----- 3 (+1 invo)
9 ----- 3 ----- 6 ------ 2 ----- 2nd ----- 3 (+1 known)
10 ---- 4 ----- 6 ------ 2 ----- 2nd ----- 3 (+1 cantrip)
11 ---- 4 ----- 7 ------ 2 ----- 2nd ----- 3 (+1 known)
12 ---- 4 ----- 7 ------ 3 ----- 2nd ----- 4 (+1 slot, +1 invo)
13 ---- 4 ----- 8 ------ 3 ----- 3rd ----- 4 (+1 known, +1 level)
14 ---- 4 ----- 8 ------ 3 ----- 3rd ----- 4
15 ---- 4 ----- 9 ------ 3 ----- 3rd ----- 4 (+1 known)
16 ---- 4 ----- 9 ------ 3 ----- 3rd ----- 5 (+1 invo)
17 ---- 4 ----- 10 ----- 3 ----- 3rd ----- 5 (+1 known)
18 ---- 4 ----- 10 ----- 3 ----- 3rd ----- 5
19 ---- 4 ----- 11 ----- 3 ----- 3rd ----- 5 (+1 known)
20 ---- 4 ----- 11 ----- 3 ----- 3rd ----- 6 (+1 invo)

As far as multiclassing with Warlock goes, I forbade it.
You already have one Pact. You can't get another.

[JNAProductions]

And how are you handling the invocations? I see that on the table, do they just gain them like Warlocks do?

[calebrus]

And how are you handling the invocations? I see that on the table, do they just gain them like Warlocks do?

Character Class level, exactly as described by Warlock.
Unless the Invocation casts a spell, in which case he has to have a slot of that spell's level available before he can take it. So some level requirements change appropriately, and a couple of them become unattainable.

[Kane0]

The reason the short rest thing is fine for warlocks is because they get effectively two archetypes, a pact and a patron, and also get invocations, several of which enhance their attack cantrip into the best in the game. If not for that, warlock casting would be severely limited. Besides that, Eldritch Knights and arcane tricksters have casting as a backup to their abilities, rather than a core thing like warlocks. They won't necessarily need to cast every short rest.

So no, I don't think this would be good for either archetype.


So if I read you right, you're saying that short rest casting works for the warlock because he has his pact features and invocations to supplement them and stop them from befoming irrelevant.
I would agree, and I would say that since the EK and AT would not get those extra things it reinforces the fact that their casting is a sideline and supplement to their core abilities, being part of a subclass rather than a core mechanic itself like in the case of the warlock.



I created something similar, but I ended up with a different table.
Basically, I thought that the short rest mechanic required a lower slot level (which is why Warlocks stop using slots and begin using Mystic Arcana after 5th).
So I dropped the max slot level down from 4 to 3, and gave them one more slot to compensate.

-Snip-

Neat, I hadn't considered giving invocations too. I probably wouldnt myself, thats why i retained the higher spell level. Stopping the progression just before the point warlocks start getting arcanums is a happy coincidence for me. I wonder what a full caster using pact casting would look like. Probably broken with the amount of high level spells he could cast per short rest.

[calebrus]

I just edited this in, but when I sent it you had posted, so you'll have missed it.

As far as multiclassing with Warlock goes, I forbade it.
You already have one Pact. You can't get another.

[JNAProductions]

What about selling your pact? Say you signed on with a Pit Fiend. Could you sell your pact to an Archdevil to start gaining Warlock levels?

[calebrus]

What about selling your pact? Say you signed on with a Pit Fiend. Could you sell your pact to an Archdevil to start gaining Warlock levels?

I didn't want to deal with creating new rules for Dual Classed Pact Magic (like the OP says, it would need to be attended to) so I forbade it. And really, if you wanted to multi a Warlock, just use Trickster or EK and go for it.

I thought the idea was cool enough to create a subclass for the 1/3 casters, but I didn't want the headache of creating new rules to do it.
Plus, for fluff purposes, it makes no sense anyway.
There is no "selling the Pact." You already sold your soul. You have nothing to bargain with.

Hence, this:
As far as multiclassing with Warlock goes, I forbade it.
You already have one Pact. You can't get another.

[Kane0]

Okay so semi-finalized, how does this look?

So Eldritch Knights and Arcane tricksters gain INT based casting in a similar fashion to warlocks.
Note that this is not explicitly pact casting, it just uses the same mechanic and is compatible when multiclassing.

Spellcasting
Your talent, luck, research and/or prtactice has given you spellcasting ability.
Use the usual rules found under your subclass description for Cantrips and Spells known of 1st level and higher.

Spell Slots
The table shows you how many spell slots you have. It also shows you what level those slots are; all your slots are of the same level. To cast a spell you must expend a spell slot. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long or short rest.

Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your spells, so you use INT whenever a spell refers to your casting ability. You also use your INT modifier when setting the saving throw DC of your spells and for your attack bonus when attacking with your spells.

Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus for your spells.

Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster Spellcasting Table



Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level


3
2
2
1
1st


4
2
2
1
1st


5
2
3
1
2nd


6
3
4
2
2nd


7
3
5
2
2nd


8
3
5
2
2nd


9
3
6
2
3rd


10
4
7
2
3rd


11
4
7
2
3rd


12
4
8
3
3rd


13
4
9
3
4th


14
4
9
3
4th


15
4
10
3
4th


16
4
11
3
4th


17
4
11
3
4th


18
4
12
3
4th


19
4
13
3
4th


20
4
13
3
4th




Additional Multiclassing Rules

Cantrips known, spells known and invocations: are as if you were single classed, and are counted separately.
Spell slots & Slot level: Add together your warlock level and 1/3 your Eldritch knight and Arcane trickster levels (rounded down), then consult the table below to determine the amount of spell slots you have and their highest spell level.



Level
Spell Slots
Slot Level


1
1
1st


2
2
1st


3
2
2nd


4
2
2nd


5
2
3rd


6
2
3rd


7
2
4th


8
2
4th


9
2
5th


10
3
5th


11
3
5th


12
3
5th


13
3
5th


14
3
5th


15
3
5th


16
3
5th


17
4
5th


18
4
5th


19
4
5th


20
4
5th

[xyianth]

That progression for EK and AT will result in higher level spells earlier than RAW EK & AT. If that is a desired outcome, fine; I'm only mentioning it in case it was unintentional.

[Kane0]

I'd have to playtest it but eks and ats getting 4th level spells when full casters are getting 7th doesnt sound so bad.
If so ill put it back a couple levels depending on results

[Tenmujiin]

I didn't want to deal with creating new rules for Dual Classed Pact Magic (like the OP says, it would need to be attended to) so I forbade it. And really, if you wanted to multi a Warlock, just use Trickster or EK and go for it.

I thought the idea was cool enough to create a subclass for the 1/3 casters, but I didn't want the headache of creating new rules to do it.
Plus, for fluff purposes, it makes no sense anyway.
There is no "selling the Pact." You already sold your soul. You have nothing to bargain with.

Hence, this:

While I understand why you forbade it, the reasoning that you are making a 2nd pact seems flawed to me, wouldn't your warlock levels just be an extension of the pact you made for your 1/3 caster levels? You're not making a new pact, you're just getting more of the benefits of your first pact (at the cost of having to actually focus on practicing with your pact granted powers, hence the warlock levels). Again, I understand not wanting to have to deal with making multiclassing rules, I just disagree with the fluff reasoning you give.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I think changes like this remove the distinctions - small as they are - that make Arcane magic different from Pact or Divine magic.

There are other ways to improve the EK and AT, if they need improvement. Personally, I would favor a way to cast spells at higher level without expanding their spell selection.