half fiend template questions

[Rentirith]

Greetings people of the interwebs!

If i might take a moment of your time, i pose a question to you.

Suppose there were a human character that i had, with a major devil bloodline.


now suppose that instead of just devilish ancestry, his father was a named archduke of hell.

how possible would it be, through roleplaying and by the book, to add the half-fiend template to this character?

my DM is somewhat crazy over what he will and will not allow in game, such as only letting my character be neutral or better in his world (yes, he has seen belkar, but still will not allow a sort of good lawful evil character).

in the monster manual, i read that half fiends all to rarely learns from and takes on the characteristics of its non fiendish parent, which implies to me that the evil alignment restriction is null and void for player characters.

in your eyes, is this a strong enough argument?

[OldTrees1]

1) Can Half Fiends be non-evil?
Yes.
There is no template or race that is always evil. The Monster Manuel even notes that when it says "always" it means almost always. There is even a Lawful Good Succubus by RAW. Savage Species goes even further by saying that PCs may ignore racial alignment tendencies.

2) What is the best way to implement the Half Fiend template?
The Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) allows you to slowly gain the effects of the Half Fiend template (the effects are identical) which makes it ideal for adding the template to an existing PC.

[Urpriest]

That said, it's probably better to explore this via a class, like Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror), than via a template. You still gain Half-Fiend-like abilities, but you do so over the course of a class that gives you other thematic abilities, making your fluff coincide better with the idea that you're exploring and getting in tune with your heritage.

[ShurikVch]

2) What is the best way to implement the Half Fiend template?
The Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) allows you to slowly gain the effects of the Half Fiend template (the effects are identical) which makes it ideal for adding the template to an existing PC. Since aforementioned Savage Progression is, technically, just another class, you may take just 1st level, and then go Legacy Champion: all template features without any extra LA
Or, if 10th level is too late for your tastes, you may instead go Uncanny Trickster, and low those +4 down to +2

[Bronk]

Well, the half-fiend template is usually inherited, not acquired, so that might present a problem.

However, if your DM has okayed the bloodline already, okayed the in game Archduke of Hell dad, and has also already okayed adding the template in theory, the only real problem is not wanting you to be technically evil while acting good.

You could go two ways: First, play your idea as stated and just say that you're good. That has a long, storied tradition of playing something like a drow but being the odd one out that happens to be good, not evil (Like Drizz't, Lirial, all those followers of Elistraee, etcetera). Second, you could try saying that the Archduke of Hell father of yours was originally an angel of some sort, and go half-celestial instead. Bloodlines have no prerequisites, so you could be completely 'good' alignment-wise, but then just act mean sometimes.

[Blackhawk748]

Also you could totally have Daddy issues and be Chaotic Neutral just to spite him and his Lawfulness. Seriously PCs can be whatever alignment they want, because, generally speaking, they are special.

Hell i've seen a LG Orc Paladin before (he was a cool guy) on the other side i've even seen a CE Aasimar. Your a sentient being you can do what you want.

Now since you have Fiendish ancestry you may, i repeat may, be more inclined to be a jerk than normal people. Id roll play this as being a bit more vicious in combat, maybe throw in a crazed laugh while your fighting, that kind of thing.

[Telonius]

Yeah, I'd go with getting the "template" some other way. Half-Fiend gives a whole bunch of bonuses, but it's a very hefty price at +4 Level Adjustment. This will cripple almost any kind of a spellcasting character. (What's your current build, by the way?) If you're just looking for some kind of "I'm descended from devils!" race, something like Tiefling or Lesser Tiefling would probably be appropriate, at much less cost.

[WeaselGuy]

So, in a move typical to me, I see threads like this, and read people's suggestions, and think to myself "Hey, that's pretty cool... I wanna try that, lemme spend a few hours writing a character based on that idea!"

In this case, it was the Fiend-Blooded prestige class, mentioned above.

I took a Lesser Tiefling Beguiler as the base class, hit up Mindbender at level 6 and Visionary Seeker at level 7, snuck 3 levels of Shadow Adept in to bring me to 10, and then for 11-20, went with Fiend-Blooded. My BAB is terribad, but this isn't that kind of character. I end up with 8/8/16 for my saves, which is a tad higher than Beguiler 20 would have, so that's a win. I finish with 19/20 spellcasting too, so snag another win there. Fiendish Heritage gives me bonuses to most of my stats, of the "Ability Boost" variety, so I can still benefit from Inherent and Enhancement items.

Anyways, the point of the matter is, I don't know what level your Sorcerer character is (or class, for that matter), but Sorcerer or Beguiler 5 can gain entry quite easily, all you need to be is non-good.

Also, just a little food for thought, you DM says you can't be evil, but you can be "evil" without being Chaotic Stupid "burn the town down and laugh while defecating in the ashes" evil. LE is the best alignment anyways, and can totally look like LN to the unobservant.

[Rentirith]

(What's your current build, by the way?)

Right now, im a human warlock lvl 2 with a major devil bloodline.

thank you for all of the feedback guys. If this will help any, im trying to make a character similar to Daimon Hellstrom from Marvel comics. His dad and sister are both devils in the d&d world, and he is in the game only to accrue power for himself in order to better combat his extended family. The warlock seems to be best suited for the whole infernal power thing.

What book does the template classes come from, by the way? The DM will only use things he has access to, and since free game manuals seems to be down since i last checked, going that path seems the least likely.

i could roleplay that during an akward family get together, daddy archduke waved his hand and unlocked my birthright or whatever, but that would add the level adjustment to Daimon as well, which isnt the most desirable.

are there any items that increase my experience gain, or feats/rules to decrease the level adjustment?

[OldTrees1]

What book does the template classes come from, by the way? The DM will only use things he has access to, and since free game manuals seems to be down since i last checked, going that path seems the least likely.

i could roleplay that during an akward family get together, daddy archduke waved his hand and unlocked my birthright or whatever, but that would add the level adjustment to Daimon as well, which isnt the most desirable.

are there any items that increase my experience gain, or feats/rules to decrease the level adjustment?

The template classes are from that WotC online article I linked. Your DM should be able to reach it. The Savage Progressions series of articles is an expansion of the Savage Species book but does not require the book.


The template class is designed so that you can gain it slowly. So the dinner could unlock the template class and bestow the first level(only +1LA). Then the signs of the heritage could grow over time(gaining more LA later at higher levels).


In Unearthed Arcana there is an option for DMs to allow players to buy off some of their level adjustment after enough levels pass. It is included here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) in the SRD. However, if allowed, it will only reduce your LA to 3 past 12th level.

The Item Familiar feat lets you make an Item Familiar. One of the abilities is by sacrificing 10% of your xp to the IF, the IF will store a bonus 10% of all xp you earn from then on. However if you ever lose the IF you lose all stored xp(so the 10% initial investment and the bonus 10% xp gained hence). However Item Familiars are a very poorly conceived concept since they are either Over Powered or Under Powered and forces your DM to choose between those 2 extremes.

[Thurbane]

If your'e happy to be a spontaneous caster, Fiend Blooded PrC (Heroes of Horror p.102) could fit the concept of a non-evil half fiend, with his fiendish ancestry slowly manifesting.

You have to be non-good (but necessarily evil), and the capstone is that you become a half-fiend. You could throw on the Fiendish Heritage feat chain if you really want to go with the theme (although you'll end up pretty feat starved).

[atemu1234]

I recommend talking to your DM about becoming a Lesser Tiefling of some sort.

[WeaselGuy]

I recommend talking to your DM about becoming a Lesser Tiefling of some sort.

No joke, this is one of my favorite races. No LA, and gets +2 Dex, +2 Int and -2 Cha. Pretty much awesome for Rangers, Wizards, Binders, Archivists, Rogues, Warlocks, Beguilers... The list goes on.

For all you fancy Clerics and Paladins out there, Lesser Aasimar gets you +2 Wis and +2 Cha for 0 LA.

You trade out the Outsider (Native) Race in favor of the Humanoid (Planetouched). Aside from losing the Outsider specific stuff (immune to Charm Person and other such stuff) you also lose the Martial Weapon Proficiency (All) perk.

The Lesser variant is in one of the Faerun books, I can't remember which one. PGtF maybe?

[atemu1234]

No joke, this is one of my favorite races. No LA, and gets +2 Dex, +2 Int and -2 Cha. Pretty much awesome for Rangers, Wizards, Binders, Archivists, Rogues, Warlocks, Beguilers... The list goes on.

For all you fancy Clerics and Paladins out there, Lesser Aasimar gets you +2 Wis and +2 Cha for 0 LA.

You trade out the Outsider (Native) Race in favor of the Humanoid (Planetouched). Aside from losing the Outsider specific stuff (immune to Charm Person and other such stuff) you also lose the Martial Weapon Proficiency (All) perk.

The Lesser variant is in one of the Faerun books, I can't remember which one. PGtF maybe?

Yes, I do think it's PGtF.

I use it for a lot, really, more than I should. IE, Lesser Fey'ri, and since I allow PF race variants from
Blood of [Insert term here], I usually allow it with this as well.

[Rentirith]

so i spoke to the dm today, and while he isnt willing to let me change my race to half-fiend human, even with a wish spell, he seems to be open to the template class idea. Now my question to you is this: when should i take template level classes?

right now i am a level 2 warlock with a major devil bloodline.

should i try to give back the major bloodline to make room for the template class, or what?

[OldTrees1]

[Not optimization advice]
I would keep the bloodline to represent the stronger than normal bloodline due to being half-archduke. I would also have the template grow over time. Say 1 level of the template class per 4 HD you gain. Alternatively you could have it be midway into a grade of invocations(so after 4th/9th/14th/19th).

[Urpriest]

Which bloodline interpretation are you using? It matters pretty dramatically whether they contribute to your ECL or not, for example.

[ShurikVch]

Aforementioned Savage Progression created from "generic" Half-Fiend
If your PC have major devil bloodline, maybe it make sense to use New Customizations of the Half-Fiend Template for Devils (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a)