Is Sangwaan Actually Dead?

[ZMiles]

Looking back through the comic, I noticed a few things:

1. When we see Sangwaan go flying in strip #429, we don't actually see her die--in fact, her eyes still appear to be lit up and not x's. And that's the last we see of her in the strip. We never get confirmation that she died in that attack.
2. When we see the big crowd of dead southerners in #486, Sangwaan is not among them. Nor do we see her in #493, when we see a few more dead people (including the southern paladin with the do-rag.)
3. Sangwaan's not part of the Resistance... but she's a seer, and could potentially have known how that would end. It's plausible that instead of participating in a cause she knew to be literally hopeless, she either went into hiding or managed to find a way out of town.
4. (SPOILER for latest Kickstarter story):
We don't see Sangwaan die here either. We see her approaching the ground and then cut away at the last moment.

So that raises the question... do we know that Sangwaan died? Or will she be triumphantly returning at some point? (I'm thinking she might return in this next arc--Durkon was evicted from his home in part due to a prophecy, so having another prophet show up just as Durkon himself returns home could lead to some interesting tensions.)

[factotum]

The dragon's bite attack may not have killed her, but she was thrown a goodly way and thus would have taken falling damage as well. In addition, if she was still alive after that then she would logically either be with Hinjo's fleet or with the Azure City Resistance--we know that everyone in the latter is now dead, so that would put paid to her, and if she's with Hinjo, why haven't we seen her? As for not appearing in the queue of dead in #486 or #493, there are maybe a couple of dozen people shown in those panels--something like ten thousand people died on the Azure City side in that battle, so simple statistics suggest it would be very unlikely we'd see Sangwaan in those panels.

I think Occam's Razor in this case suggests the correct explanation is likely the simplest one--namely, Sangwaan died from the fall in Azure City and this is why we haven't seen her since.

[Sylian]

She certainly expected to die. "Well played, Lord Rooster" would imply as much.

[ZMiles]

She certainly expected to die. "Well played, Lord Rooster" would imply as much.

That's certainly true, but... (spoilers for the Kickstarter reward stories)


Sangwaan explicitly said she didn't know when she would die. While she might have expected to die from that fall, she didn't know for sure. It's possible that, for instance, she got lucky on her damage roll, like Roy was hoping for when he fell.

[D.One]

That's certainly true, but...

When did she said that?

[Shale]

Spoiler warnings for Spoiler Alert:

As of her evening with Therkla, we know that Sangwaan didn't know the time or manner of her death, unless she was lying to her new friend, since she thought it was only "likely" to come before her 30th birthday, rather than being certain, and that it would be by disease and not dragon-chomp-and-toss. Plus even if she had known but kept quiet, she wouldn't have suddenly gotten the irony as she was falling.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think that "crunch" plus hurtling through the air to smash into the ground can safely taken as "dead until proven otherwise."

[Zyzzyva]

She got chowed down on by a zombie dragon, then thrown dozens of meters through the air. She's dead.

She hits the ground head first, ferroosterssake. The fact that the Giant made a discretion cut away from her hitting the ground with a splash doesn't mean she isn't dead.

[ORione]

Maybe she's secretly a villain. If so, then she's definitely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) alive.

[Porthos]

Called it. :smalltongue: (WARNING: Link leads to discussion of latest KS story and has unmarked spoilers)

[Pyron]

I think Sangwaan is really dead. However, it's possible that her body could had been recovered and turned into a wight or other form of free-willed undead by Tsukiko. :smallwink:

[Reddish Mage]

Saagwan's wish was that when she dies "no one sees it coming" and then she and Therkla toasts to "damaged goods going out on our own terms" the page contains Saagwan thanking Lord Rooster as she falls. "Well played."

[ZMiles]

Saagwan's wish was that when she dies "no one sees it coming" and then she and Therkla toasts to "damaged goods going out on our own terms" the page contains Saagwan thanking Lord Rooster as she falls. "Well played."

That means that Sangwaan believed she was going to die. But she didn't know it for sure, not having had a vision. She could have been wrong. If, for instance, she got lucky on her damage role but didn't predict that in advance, she could have guessed she would die from the dragon but then not actually done so.

It also occurs to me that O-Chul survived a larger fall (since the throne room was higher than the castle walls). And while O-Chul has more hit points than a Sherman tank, he also took a massive explosion to the face, which Sangwaan didn't, and still survived. So the super-tough O-Chul could survive a massive explosion + massive fall, maybe the more frail Sangwaan could survive a dragon clawing and a less massive fall.

[Grey Watcher]

That means that Sangwaan believed she was going to die. But she didn't know it for sure, not having had a vision. She could have been wrong. If, for instance, she got lucky on her damage role but didn't predict that in advance, she could have guessed she would die from the dragon but then not actually done so.

It also occurs to me that O-Chul survived a larger fall (since the throne room was higher than the castle walls). And while O-Chul has more hit points than a Sherman tank, he also took a massive explosion to the face, which Sangwaan didn't, and still survived. So the super-tough O-Chul could survive a massive explosion + massive fall, maybe the more frail Sangwaan could survive a dragon clawing and a less massive fall.

True, but I always assumed that O-Chul was higher level than Sangwaan, even as of the Battle for Azure City. That, and his levels are all in d10 HD classes, while Sangwaan has presumably only been using d4s (her dialogue in both the main strip and the KS story Spoiler Alert! suggest she's a wizard specializing in divination), so it's plausible that she has merely a tenth the HP of O-Chul (eg if she's a 5th level Wizard with a Con of 8 and no feats or class features to boost her HP, she's got, at most 15 HP, and if O-Chul is level 10 with a Con of 18, which is lowballing it in my opinion, he could have up to 140, before feats and the like).

Besides, there's precedent of not depicting someone's head being split open (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0612.html).

EDIT: OK, just before she dies, Sangwaan casts True Seeing, which makes her at least 11th level. Still, if we again assume a Con of 8 (we ARE talking about someone who doesn't do physical labor for a living and has a medical condition that would have probably killed her before the age of 30 if Xykon hadn't beaten it to the punch), that only makes 33 HP to O-Chul's somewhere-well-over-100.

[realroadcrossin]

It also occurs to me that O-Chul survived a larger fall (since the throne room was higher than the castle walls). And while O-Chul has more hit points than a Sherman tank, he also took a massive explosion to the face, which Sangwaan didn't, and still survived. So the super-tough O-Chul could survive a massive explosion + massive fall, maybe the more frail Sangwaan could survive a dragon clawing and a less massive fall.

But you say it there - O-Chul is pretty much the definition of insane constitution - it's doubtful even a lot of the scary monsters in the comic can take as much damage as him. Maybe an adventurer with some combat experience could survive a dragon bite and a fall, but Sangwaan is a very frail regular everyday citizen. She's got spooky magic but it's not the combat stuff.


More importantly, I'm wondering what this theory would even mean if true. If Sangwaan survived the battle, it's long past the point in the story where she could be relevant at all.

And of course, the only reason we're theorizing this now is because of her prominence in Therkla's story. Her whole arc there would be meaningless if she was still alive - she'd still die a terrible unpredictable death from her illness, while being considerably maimed by a dragon bite. If she's not dead she's met a face worse than death. I don't think Rich would do that to a character he's obviously sympathetic to simply for the sake of a twist.

[Porthos]

Her whole arc there would be meaningless if she was still alive - she'd still die a terrible unpredictable death from her illness, while being considerably maimed by a dragon bite. If she's not dead she's met a face worse than death. I don't think Rich would do that to a character he's obviously sympathetic to simply for the sake of a twist.

This and exactly this. Sangwaan may not have had a happy ending, but she seems to think she had a much better one than the one she feared. Never mind the robbing of the story of some of its emotional punch, robbing Sangwaan of her chance to go out on her own terms seems to be something of a raw deal if you ask me.

That we didn't see her bug-splat, to put it crudely, could just be Rich deciding to cut away for the sake of Good Taste. I mean, it's not as if that scene would look any better with her mangled body as the final panel.

Done this way, we exit on poignancy and not distaste. Something to be said for that, I think.

[Sylian]

that only makes 33 HP to O-Chul's somewhere-well-over-100.And that's assuming she rolled a 4 10 out of 10 times. That's incredibly unlikely. If she rolled, on average, a 3 every time, which is above average, she'd end up with 22 HP. After the dragon's attack she'd be near dead, and the falling damage would kill her. Unless she has Feather Fall, although I find that unlikely.

[Reddish Mage]

This and exactly this. Sangwaan may not have had a happy ending, but she seems to think she had a much better one than the one she feared. Never mind the robbing of the story of some of its emotional punch, robbing Sangwaan of her chance to go out on her own terms seems to be something of a raw deal if you ask me.

That we didn't see her bug-splat, to put it crudely, could just be Rich deciding to cut away for the sake of Good Taste. I mean, it's not as if that scene would look any better with her mangled body as the final panel.

Done this way, we exit on poignancy and not distaste. Something to be said for that, I think.

Not just something. The entire point of the story is to give us a bittersweet ending by giving us a scene of two of the minor characters drinking to their own demise and morbidly declaring that this is the way they want out. If Sangwaan survives the fall it would undermine this story.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Now, I haven't read the Kickstarter backers' story that everyone seems to have enjoyed, but unless it gave us a way that Sangwaan could have survived her tremendous fall in 429 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), I'd say yes; she is actually dead.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Now, I haven't read the Kickstarter backers' story that everyone seems to have enjoyed, but unless it gave us a way that Sangwaan could have survived her tremendous fall in 429 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), I'd say yes; she is actually dead.

In short and without trying to spoil anything you probably haven't already gleaned from this discussion being here at all... no, it gives no way she could have survived. It shows her death as we saw in 429, but a few seconds later into the fall. The argument now is the same one as before: we didn't actually see her hit the ground, so obviously she's still alive somehow.

[Procyonpi]

Yes. Silly 10 Character minimum.

[Rogar Demonblud]

and if O-Chul is level 10 with a Con of 18

Word of Giant from the commentaries in DSTP is that he has a CON in the mid-20s. O-Chul probably has more bonus HP from the CON modifier than Sangwaan has in total.

[NerdyKris]

Also why are we only using Ochul, and not Miko and Roy, who both died under similar conditions?

For her to have survived, she would have to have had more hit points than two mid level fighters. And as mentioned, it would rob the story of it's impact and raise a lot of questions such as why we never see her with the resistance or Hinjo's group, given her usefulness.

[Reboot]

Also why are we only using Ochul, and not Miko and Roy, who both died under similar conditions?

For her to have survived, she would have to have had more hit points than two mid level fighters.

Not really, Roy was knocked out by a close-range Meteor Storm and came to while already falling, and Miko was RIPPED IN HALF by the point-blank gate explosion (and may already have been down on hit points beforehand - she didn't come to from her fight with Roy & Hinjo until she'd already been in gaol for some time, which implies the Azurites didn't exactly heal her to 100%). They were both well, well down on hit points when they hit the ground, so how many they would have at full strength is irrelevant.

(Note: This is NOT an argument that Sangwaan survived. Just on the relevance of their stats.)

[Prospekt]

I mean, if you think Rich should just like, completely ruin the last page of the kickstarter story and Sangwaan's character as well, then no, she didn't die.

It always amazes me that characters have to not only die on-screen, but also often require a word from the author afterward, for some people to believe a character is dead. Because getting tossed off of the ramparts of a large wall by a large, invisible zombie dragon being controlled by the most powerful sorcerer in the world isn't enough. You don't show how threatening the big bad is by having them toss someone aside (who's likely got low physical stats in the first place) and have them live. :T

[Rakoa]

As for supposition about O-Chul's hitpoints, Word of Giant pegs his Con score in the mid-to-high 20s, as I recall, from one of the book commentaries.

[dancrilis]

It always amazes me that characters have to not only die on-screen, but also often require a word from the author afterward, for some people to believe a character is dead.
Panel 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html), now that was about bad guys - but the same can refer to missing good guys.

This is the reason why Nale, Crystal, Samantha, Jirix, Xykon, Roy, Thanh, Miko etc might all be making/or have made a comeback.

Sangwaan is no different - she will return if the Giant feels the need bring her back for any reason, I just don't think it is likely that he will feel that need.

[Onyavar]

Oh man, I hadn't noticed that story! You all spoiled "Spoiler Alert" for me :smallwink: No, of course you didn't, and I read it just now, and I'm fine.

Okay, this is yet another of Schroedinger's Seer. (Which is hilarious, since the Seer herself WOULD be able to determine that kind of thing. Okay, where was I?) Yeah, we know as little as we did from the online comic, although there are...
... no flumphs standing around, and no fluffy pillows lying on the ground. I don't suppose something happens to get there right in time, when Sangwaan is rushing the last meter of her fall at 80 km/h. What are the odds of a flumph teleporter materializing right at the spot? With Zombie-Dragon-Head-on-Death-Knight, two of those amazing unlikely incidents in one battle would be too much. I guess. So I'm ruling out the option of "unlikely random event prevents Sangwaan from getting killed."
Let's cut loose now on "likely planned events prevent Sangwaan from getting killed". My best go is that the Oracle could have paid that lizardfolk teleporter to rescue Sangwaan just before she hit the ground, and together, the two seers planned the entire Lickmyorangeballshalfling joke. And then they started planning to take over the world since Sangwaan is obviously inherently evil as this bonus material clearly sho... um, okay, I think I should go catch some sleep right now.

Anyway, I'd say it's pointless to believe she is/was still alive. Even if she died from bite&fall, she could be easily revived by a decent cleric, if Rich really needed her alive for whatever reason.

I'm assuming he didn't want to show Sangwaan go ker-SPLAT in the last panel. Those things tend to be messy. Tsukiko also died offscreen.

[Dr. Gamera]

Now, I haven't read the Kickstarter backers' story that everyone seems to have enjoyed, but unless it gave us a way that Sangwaan could have survived her tremendous fall in 429 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), I'd say yes; she is actually dead.

You don't need the Kickstarter story to give you a way for Sangwaan to have survived. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm)

[factotum]

You don't need the Kickstarter story to give you a way for Sangwaan to have survived. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm)

On the other hand, the Kickstarter story pretty much puts paid to there being any chance Sangwaan used that spell:


Considering it cuts away from her when she's literally about 2 feet from the ground and about to hit it, the chance of any Contingency being able to realistically save her at that point is pretty darned remote.

[Jay R]

Well, she landed face-first, so her nose and mouth are probably out of commission.

She may not be dead, but she's taken her last breath, and can no longer savor birthday cake.

[allenw]

Yes, of course she's dead. To quote the great Guy Fleegman, "Did you guys ever WATCH the show?"

Is there some way, within the rules of D&D, that she could have survived? Sure. And that's not even counting the ways she could have died, but gotten better.

Is there some way, within the rules of the world she lived in, that she could have survived? No. And that's because one of the rules of the world she lived in is "it's a story being told by Rich Burlew, and Rich doesn't deliberately tell pointless or contradictory stories, or go out of his way to make a story worse."

[Ron Miel]

... Miko was RIPPED IN HALF by the point-blank gate explosion ...

to be precise, Miko was chopped in half by the shattered remnants of the throne landing on her.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html

[Angelalex242]

to be precise, Miko was chopped in half by the shattered remnants of the throne landing on her.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html

Well, Miko attacked it first. Twice.

It was about time for that throne to have its revenge, I say.

Anyways, Sangwaan has approximately a 3.1415% chance of survival. :smallwink:

[Rakoa]

Well, Miko attacked it first. Twice.

It was about time for that throne to have its revenge, I say.

Anyways, Sangwaan has approximately a 3.1415% chance of survival. :smallwink:

But was the throne morally justified in getting revenge upon Miko??

[goodpeople25]

But was the throne morally justified in getting revenge upon Miko??
Trys to think of ways for the throne to be connected to redcloak's niece. Idk
Anyway the throne is obviously a deus ex machina, also quite forced. Though this is a filler thread anyway.