Is Asmodeus still a god?

[supergoji18]

As I recal, Asmodeus became a god in 4e when the Spellplague hit. But with 5e and the Sundering basically undoing 4e as a whole, does that mean he's back to just being a really powerful arch devil?

The Monster Manual seems to imply this. It says he rules over the nine hells "with the power of a lesser deity." IIRC, Asmodeus was a Greater Deity when he ascended. So did he lose most of his power and now just controls hell?

[Seruvius]

it seems that way. WOTC, like many others, seem to want to pretend 4e never happened so events like the spellplague seem to have been retconned.

[Taejang]

If it ever comes up when I'm DM, I'll vaguely say Cthulhu forced Asmodius down and leave the players wondering how that went down, and why Cthulhu would care in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

[Talderas]

it seems that way. WOTC, like many others, seem to want to pretend 4e never happened so events like the spellplague seem to have been retconned.

D&D rules aren't provided for a specific setting. This isn't like White Wolf publications or Shadowrun where each edition of the rules is accompanying an "aging" of the setting.

[Shining Wrath]

If Asmodeus is not the most powerful LE divine entity, then surely someone else would rule the Nine Hells in his stead. Asmodeus, then, puts an upper limit on the power of a LE deity.

For other alignments, I can imagine a deity being of greater rank but not caring who rules the associated plane. For LE, though, I have trouble imagining actually being of that alignment and NOT wanting to rule. Getting power is pretty much the point of LE, after all.

[bulbaquil]

Depends on what the GM says regarding Asmodeus for that particular game. He could be a powerful archdevil; he could be a deity; he could not exist.

That said, the 5e PHB does not list Asmodeus as a Forgotten Realms deity...

[Oscredwin]

"Asmodeus, when someone asks you, 'Are you a god?' you say YES!"

[Tenmujiin]

D&D rules aren't provided for a specific setting. This isn't like White Wolf publications or Shadowrun where each edition of the rules is accompanying an "aging" of the setting.

Actually, many of the WotC settings age as each edition comes out.

[Grimslade5]

In Godborn it references Asmodeus as being a god

[Envyus]

The Brimstone angels series is implied to being what reveals Asmodeus's loss of power as a god in the forgotten realms. He is likely going to be depowered to Lesser God instead of Greater.

Anyway he does not have to be the most powerful LE entity. There were lots of gods implied to be more powerful then him. Just unable to overtake his domain. Tiamat is a lesser god but if she tried to take on the whole of Hell she would be easily overwhelmed.

These are the rules of Godhood Divine Ranks according to the DMG.


DIVINE RANK
The divine beings of the multiverse are often categorized according to their cosmic power. Some gods are worshiped on multiple worlds and have a different rank on each world, depending on their influence there.
Greater deities are beyond mortal understanding. They can't be summoned, and they are almost always removed from direct involvement in mortal affairs. On very rare occasions they manifest avatars similar to lesser deities, but slaying a greater god's avatar has no effect on the god itself.
Lesser deities are embodied somewhere in the planes. Some lesser deities live in the Material Plane, as does the unicorn-goddess Lurue of the Forgotten Realms and the titanic shark-god Sekolah revered by the sahuagin. Others live on the Outer Planes, as Lolth does in the Abyss. Such deities can be encountered by mortals.
Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.
Demigods are born from the union of a deity and a mortal being. They have some divine attributes, but their mortal parentage makes them the weakest quasi-deities.
Titans are the divine creations of deities. They might be birthed from the union of two deities, manufactured on a divine forge, born from the blood spilled by a god, or otherwise brought about through divine will or substance.
Vestiges are deities who have lost nearly all their worshipers and are considered dead, from a mortal perspective. Esoteric rituals can sometimes contact these beings and draw on their latent power.

Pretty much Asmodeus and Lolth are going to fall into Lesser Deity Status from now on. Given Tiamats power all Lesser Gods and Greater God avatars will be CR 30.

[Rallicus]

it seems that way. WOTC, like many others, seem to want to pretend 4e never happened so events like the spellplague seem to have been retconned.

Out of curiosity, did anyone actually enjoy 4e's fluff? The Spellplague is the biggest culprit of terrible ideas, obviously (also Elminster still being able to cast magic but being crazy; just when you thought the man couldn't be any more snowflake), but were there any aspects that were actually good?

For instance, a lot of grognards don't like the Time of Troubles or the Greyhawk Wars (FR/GH respectively), but I think it's safe to say that some good stuff that came out of both of them. The bad doesn't completely weigh down the good.

Is this the case in FR 4e? Of course, this is all a matter of opinion, but everything I've read concerning 4e's fluff has just been terrible.

[MeeposFire]

Out of curiosity, did anyone actually enjoy 4e's fluff? The Spellplague is the biggest culprit of terrible ideas, obviously (also Elminster still being able to cast magic but being crazy; just when you thought the man couldn't be any more snowflake), but were there any aspects that were actually good?

For instance, a lot of grognards don't like the Time of Troubles or the Greyhawk Wars (FR/GH respectively), but I think it's safe to say that some good stuff that came out of both of them. The bad doesn't completely weigh down the good.

Is this the case in FR 4e? Of course, this is all a matter of opinion, but everything I've read concerning 4e's fluff has just been terrible.

It is not as much of a case of terrible fluff. It is more that it is too large of a change in a short amount of time (our time not game time). People do not tend to like losing so much of what they had and the 4e Realms changed nearly everything and older folks felt like it invalidated most of what they knew. It did have an advantage where newer players did not have to worry about the older lore (a common criticism of FR is that it has so much info that it can be hard to get into with new players or that DMs do n't want to deal with players knowing more than them) but the problem is with that is that you have eliminated the biggest draw of FR which is appealing to all those players who love playing in a setting with so much history that you know.


Of course this points to something that is not 4e's actual fault which is FR's apparant need to have in universe changes whenever the rules change. Not all settings do this in fact many do not. Many settings may change the time period slightly (such as move forward a few years) but they do not really change the setting specifically for the mechanics of a new edition so much. Other settings like Eberron do not change at all. Nobody likes seeing most of their favorite characters and gods being eliminated (or in some cases just being sidelined to near non-existence like many minor FR gods) and that is what they did.


Some settings did well with the changes. 4e Dark Sun works really well but that was more of a case of doing two things right.

1. They set back the clock to the time where more people were happy. The time scale actually moved forward in 2e when they put out a second set and that made a bunch of people unhappy then. 4e went back to essentially right after the first sets start time.

2. Instead of changing everything in the setting to fit the mechanics directly (like FR tried to do) they made mechanics in 4e to make it work in Dark Sun's favor. Adding themes, defiling (that worked with any arcane class rather than just one specific wizard so this was better than the 2e version in that regard), ability to run low magic item games, wild talents, etc made the game work well. Also at the same time this was when they added the new nastier monsters which had better attacks and less HP which made the fights a little bit more brutal which goes with the Dark Sun flavor.

If FR had used an approach more similar to DS or Eberron then I think you would have had less issues. I think they tried to stick with the FR tradition of changing things and at the same time tried to address many of the criticisms of FR but in addressing those concerns it made older FR lovers unhappy and essentially removed what makes FR interesting over other settings and why those who like FR tend to want to play it. Yes FR has so many gods in it that it can overwhelm you but FR lovers want that and FR haters won't go to it just because you remove them as they already have found settings that fit them better.

You can find people that like the fluff but they will be harder to find because the biggest crowd in FR are the older players from 3+ editions and many of them won't like it and they are vocal about it.

[Rallicus]

Good points, Meepo. I can be counted among the people who feel FR is very overwhelming given the vast amounts of information. And you're absolutely right when it comes for FR's fluff changes to match the edition changes. (Which is why I have no problem with Die, Vecna, Die! [despite the lore-shattering implications]). Explain it as "weird inexplicable changes cause reasons" and move on with it...

But I still think it's terrible fluff. And if the content drives the original creator to the point of tears, it's probably terrible fluff.

On the subject of Asmodeus: why did they think it would be cool to turn him into a deity? Moreover, why did they think it would be a good idea to stop the Blood War (with no repressions despite constant alluding to it in previous editions)? I can't wrap my head around it.

[pwykersotz]

On the subject of Asmodeus: why did they think it would be cool to turn him into a deity? Moreover, why did they think it would be a good idea to stop the Blood War (with no repressions despite constant alluding to it in previous editions)? I can't wrap my head around it.

I can only assume they were trying to jettison "baggage" that they didn't want around anymore.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Meh I still prefer Asmodeus as a lesser diety and Devil king that may or may not be the source of all Primordial evil trapped in a lesser but still frighteningly clever form

[RedMage125]

D&D rules aren't provided for a specific setting. This isn't like White Wolf publications or Shadowrun where each edition of the rules is accompanying an "aging" of the setting.


Actually, many of the WotC settings age as each edition comes out.

Of note is that Forgotten Realms (which the OP was asking about) is one of those settings that does age. Until the Spellplague, FR aged in real time.

[CyberThread]

Out of curiosity, did anyone actually enjoy 4e's fluff? The Spellplague is the biggest culprit of terrible ideas, obviously (also Elminster still being able to cast magic but being crazy; just when you thought the man couldn't be any more snowflake), but were there any aspects that were actually good?

For instance, a lot of grognards don't like the Time of Troubles or the Greyhawk Wars (FR/GH respectively), but I think it's safe to say that some good stuff that came out of both of them. The bad doesn't completely weigh down the good.

Is this the case in FR 4e? Of course, this is all a matter of opinion, but everything I've read concerning 4e's fluff has just been terrible.


Personally I liked the outlaying storylines that came from 4e. I thought the abeloths storyline was decent enough, I enjoyed the books that came out for them. The books for 4e were decent enough also, to keep me interested in the setting once I did not like what 4e was dong with it. The devil sisters were cool to read on , the rules and stuff I never did touch, but the setting itself was still had gems to read up on .

[Falcon X]

The Sword Coast Adventurer's guide lists, in no uncertain terms, that Asmodeus is still a god and everything he did, including placing the Abyss underneath the elemental chaos and changing all the tieflings to his likeness, is still in place.

That being said, I personally prefer him as an archfiend and play most of my games in the 2e or 3e timeline.


Good points, Meepo. I can be counted among the people who feel FR is very overwhelming given the vast amounts of information. And you're absolutely right when it comes for FR's fluff changes to match the edition changes. (Which is why I have no problem with Die, Vecna, Die! [despite the lore-shattering implications]). Explain it as "weird inexplicable changes cause reasons" and move on with it... I laughed out loud the other day when I was looking at the world tree cosmology on various sites online and they all say that there is no explanation for the change in cosmology and that it was simply retconned. We students of D&D, of course, know that the change happened in Greyhawk/Ravenloft/Planescape, and because Planescape was the default setting for D&D at the time, it changed the cosmology for Forgotten Realms too.

[Irennan]

As I recal, Asmodeus became a god in 4e when the Spellplague hit. But with 5e and the Sundering basically undoing 4e as a whole, does that mean he's back to just being a really powerful arch devil?

The Monster Manual seems to imply this. It says he rules over the nine hells "with the power of a lesser deity." IIRC, Asmodeus was a Greater Deity when he ascended. So did he lose most of his power and now just controls hell?

He is still a god (according to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, which describes the status quo of the Forgotten Realms). As you say, according to the Monster Manual, he is a lesser deity now, down from greater. That is because he rose to greater power by absorbing Azuth's divinity. However, during the Sundering (the latets FR big event), Azuth has managed to break free from Asmodeus and make a comeback--Erin Evan's novels about Farideh are currently developing that story arc, if you are interested.

[Regitnui]

If he exists (since the Nine Hells do not exist in the thirteen planes of Eberron and I'll make anyone who argues swallow a delayed blast fireball) he's the devilish general of the devil army in Shavarath. No godhood here, since those fiends are trapped. Or I hope they're trapped.

As for the Forgotten Relms/Great Wheel, I guess he could be considered a lesser deity given the fact that he's the CEO of NineHells Inc. I don't really mind either way.

As for the Blood War; it never stopped in my opinion. Perhaps the Archdemons were busy reevaluating their strategy after Asmodeus swallowed most of a god, and now that he's been repowered, they feel more secure in taking on the devils again.

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

Don't let any of these blasphemous haters delude you, Asmodeus is a very real deity and when he invokes the Contract of Creation to usher in the end times, dissenters and deniers will get what they've earned.

[Mara]

D&D isn't pathfinder. God is not a special tier of unfathomable power. Non gods can compete just fine.

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

D&D isn't pathfinder. God is not a special tier of unfathomable power. Non gods can compete just fine.

Can you cite this? 3.5e's Dieties and Demigods was basically just a verbose way of saying "Gods win for free (unless you cast Ice Assassin)", and I've not personally seen any stat blocks for 5th ed deities.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

It is not as much of a case of terrible fluff. It is more that it is too large of a change in a short amount of time (our time not game time).
I'm pretty sure it was both, at least in non-Dark Sun settings, but you raise some good points about Faerun trying too hard to keep up with the rules. I'll dispute that adding another layer of revisions on top of the old stuff made things 'easier for new players to follow', though.

[Mrmox42]

In the end, the divinity of Asmodeus is up to the DM. In my own campaign world, Asmo is not a god. He is the incredibly powerful leader/caretaker of Hell, and answers to whatever Lawful Evil god that happens to be strongest right now. He works as the schemer behind the throne, and sometimes obstructs and decieves the gods. My players often find themselves woven into Asmo's schemes, and end up (unwittingly) working for him.
I like to play Asmodeos as a relaxed, polite, even seemingly gentle person, who is completely in control of every situation. Yet, if somebody disappoints him, or fail to show proper respect, they will feel his wrath. He loves to make deals, and those deals ALWAYS seem harmless. They never are.

[Malifice]

it seems that way. WOTC, like many others, seem to want to pretend 4e never happened so events like the spellplague seem to have been retconned.

And there was much rejoicing.

[Anonymouswizard]

For other alignments, I can imagine a deity being of greater rank but not caring who rules the associated plane. For LE, though, I have trouble imagining actually being of that alignment and NOT wanting to rule. Getting power is pretty much the point of LE, after all.

Eh, there's two other LE planes that might be to their liking. Also, Asmodeus is a being literally made of Lawful and Evil, who rules over the plane of Lawful and Evil, him being a god would simply be a matter of 'can he grant Clerical spells', by definition he has to be a powerhouse of practically divine strength, and almost certainly has plots within plots within plots. Any deity who tried to take over the Nine Hells would get just end up booted out without Asmodeus even looking in their direction.

At least that's the view I'll be going with when I run 2e Planescape, where Asmodeus won't be a power but will be on their level.


Some settings did well with the changes. 4e Dark Sun works really well but that was more of a case of doing two things right.

1. They set back the clock to the time where more people were happy. The time scale actually moved forward in 2e when they put out a second set and that made a bunch of people unhappy then. 4e went back to essentially right after the first sets start time.

2. Instead of changing everything in the setting to fit the mechanics directly (like FR tried to do) they made mechanics in 4e to make it work in Dark Sun's favor. Adding themes, defiling (that worked with any arcane class rather than just one specific wizard so this was better than the 2e version in that regard), ability to run low magic item games, wild talents, etc made the game work well. Also at the same time this was when they added the new nastier monsters which had better attacks and less HP which made the fights a little bit more brutal which goes with the Dark Sun flavor.

Assuming you ignored Dragon Kings then Defilers and Preservers were the only Arcane classes. 4e's class structure meant that defiling pretty much had to be opened to all Arcane classes in order to have a decent number of options.

I didn't know there was a change in monsters, but I still find 4e a bit too 'padded' for when I finally run my Dark Sun campaign, so I'll stick with the original boxed set.

I think the setting back the clock is the big one. I'd have loved for them to stick to Athas's cosmology (essentially, remove everything astral plane-ward, leaving just the material, ethereal, shadow, and inner planes).

I personally have no attachments to FR because it's probably my least favourite setting, I find I can make ones such as Birthright sit well with me (I simply move the ascension of the new gods to be during the late bronze age and have Brecht starting to arm armies with the arquebus), so I don't actually have to deal with Asmodeus as a DM that much.

[Socratov]

it seems that way. WOTC, like many others, seem to want to pretend 4e never happened so events like the spellplague seem to have been retconned.
Ehm, remember Fiendish codex 2 form 3.5? Asmodeus has always been, and always will be, one powerful motherfornicator.

Meh I still prefer Asmodeus as a lesser diety and Devil king that may or may not be the source of all Primordial evil trapped in a lesser but still frighteningly clever form

that's what he wants you to think...

[Regitnui]

Ehm, remember Fiendish codex 2 form 3.5? Asmodeus has always been, and always will be, one powerful motherfornicator.

Nobody was arguing his power level, just his divinity. The rakshasa rajahs might be as powerful as gods, but they're fiends, not divinities.

[pwykersotz]

Nobody was arguing his power level, just his divinity. The rakshasa rajahs might be as powerful as gods, but they're fiends, not divinities.

This intrigues me, I haven't heard of the Rakshasa Raja's in the context of D&D. Is there a sourcebook for them? My google-fu fails me.

[Kane0]

Not that Asmodeus needs to be a god. Remember how in 3.5 he had Tiamat paying rent for a place on the first layer of hell?
Despite him being worshiped arguably more than Orcus (who was/is actively pursuing godhood) he chose (chooses?) to remain a power rather than a be deity (the difference is laid out by Planescape IIRC). He's not retrained by the problems deities face and still remains powerful enough to challenge and beat them.
And if you believe some of the stories prior editions have spun, he predates many other deities and powers anyway, so he's above them almost by default.

In any case, there's a different Asmodeus with a different origin story for each edition. Just pick the one that appeals to you most (My personal favorite is a mix of AD&D/Planescape and 3.5).

[MeeposFire]

This intrigues me, I haven't heard of the Rakshasa Raja's in the context of D&D. Is there a sourcebook for them? My google-fu fails me.

He might be referencing Eberron where the Rakshasa Rajas are the big bads sealed away.

[pwykersotz]

He might be referencing Eberron where the Rakshasa Rajas are the big bads sealed away.

Sweet, thanks!

[Regitnui]

He might be referencing Eberron where the Rakshasa Rajas are the big bads sealed away.

Yep. They're superpowerful immortal fiends that had to be locked away by the combined life force of the entire coatl race.

[McNinja]

For reference... http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Overlords

[MeeposFire]

Yep. They're superpowerful immortal fiends that had to be locked away by the combined life force of the entire coatl race.

Well most of them anyway...

[Millstone85]

it seems that way. WOTC, like many others, seem to want to pretend 4e never happened so events like the spellplague seem to have been retconned.It seems to me that the Spellplague has been undone (by the Sundering) but not retconned. 5e FR still acknowledges it as a thing that happened.

[Taejang]

It seems to me that the Spellplague has been undone (by the Sundering) but not retconned. 5e FR still acknowledges it as a thing that happened.

Indeed, it does. And marks are still visible on maps of key locations (like Neverwinter).