Is Miko insane?

[BisectedBrioche]

I was wondering whether everyone think that Miko has some sort of mental dysfunction or if she's just an unpleasant person. I've put a couple of real disorders in the poll (the one's IMO that make the most sense anyway) to stop the poll being boring;

She's sane: Miko is completely aware of her surroundings and the consequences of her actions.

Schizophrenia: The classic "voices in my head" madness (it is NOT to be confused with Multiple Personality Disorder). The main criteria as listed in the DSM-IV (AKA the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) are as follows;

1. 2 or more of any of the following symptoms;

Delusions* (of grandeur** or paranoia**)
Hallucinations* (typically aural, but they may be visual or olfactory)
Disorganised speech (basically just spouting out random gibberish with no semantic meaning, many cases simply just rhyming words)
Disorganised behaviour (wearing clothes backwards, crying for no reason etc)
"Negative" symptoms (lack or decline in emotional response, speech or motivation. There's some technical words for them but I can't recall them off my head)


*If these are very strange delusions or the hallucinations are voices in the individual's head commenting or giving instructions then it can count as 2.
**Grandeur is the belief that you are exceptionally important or that you are a person who is important (e.g. "I'm Napoleon"), paranoia is of course the feeling that everyone's out ot get you.

2. Social or Occupation dysfunction (i.e. "is her behaviour affecting her work or her social life" :smallamused:)

3. The symptoms last at least 6 months (to ensure its not bi-polar disorder)

4. The symptoms should not be the result of: Another mental disorder, substance abuse or another medical condition)
Miko definitely seems to think she's important and I'd say its affected her work quite badly.

Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD): This is a clinical term for the old crime show favorite "sociopathy" the criteria for diagnosis are;

1. Three or more of the following;

Failing to conform to social norms (usually by frequent breaches of the law)
Constant lying
Impulsive behaviour or failing to plan ahead
Disregard for the safety of yourself and others
Short temper
Irresponsibility (not paying off depts, losing jobs etc)
No remorse for any pain and/or suffering given to others

2. They must be at least 18

3. There must have been evidence of misconduct before the age of 15

4. Their behaviour is not because of schizophrenia or bi-polar disorder

Its also worth noting that there is a group of three symptoms that can be "warning signs" in children (the MacDonald triangle);


Cruelty to animals
Pyromania
Bed Wetting (to a later age than most children)

Keeping in mine this is not absolute proof a child will be/is a sociopath
Miko does show some symptoms of ASPD, and for all we know she got taken away by Shojo because she kept starting fires at the monastery.

Something else: All the other disorder's I'm too lazy to post

thog's Syndrome: She just needs a hug!

I am aware of the pointlessness of trying to diagnose a fictional character with an illness, but I'm bored.

[aberratio ictus]

Absolutely sane.

No doubt about that.

[Shadow of the Sun]

This reminds me of a quote I thought up 3 days ago:

"Normality is just insanity taken to an extreme."

[DraPrime]

Definately insane. Or at least extremely irrational. She does seem to fit the bill for a sociopath. She doesn't really feel guilt about all the pain she's caused.

[Lorde]

Another Miko post.. and another reply of me.

First, I think everybody have some weird quirk here and there, and being "normal" specially on a fantasy setting can be complicated.

Now, while the hateful crowd will put her as crazy, ugly and unshaved, I think she isn't crazy, or at least, just as crazy as Belkar, Elan's brother and Xykon.

[Sean92k]

I think she is crazy because of a lack of treasure type O

[BisectedBrioche]

Another Miko post.. and another reply of me.

First, I think everybody have some weird quirk here and there, and being "normal" specially on a fantasy setting can be complicated.

Now, while the hateful crowd will put her as crazy, ugly and unshaved, I think she isn't crazy, or at least, just as crazy as Belkar, Elan's brother and Xykon.

Calm down, Shojo himself said he was worried about her "stability". There's a very good chance she's a few sides short of a d20.

Also, wouldn't it be quite reasonable to say Belkar and Nale are psychopaths, with all the remorseless violence and murder they get up to?

[Sean92k]

Im insane but I dont suffer from mental illness i enjoy it ... schizophrenia is better than being alone

[Miklus]

She just needs a hug. A long, strong...hug.

[Xiander]

Some notes i think apropriate:

1) Belkar, Nale, Xykon and a bundle of other fictional characters would be deemed insane, where they to have their heads examined. I will not come with an argument for this as it seems self evidennt to me.

2) Miko has been getting morw irrational everytime we have seen her lately, and she still believes that she is in her good right to act as she does. Whether or not she is insane is hard to say, but something is wrong in her head, and i do believe a psycyatrist would have something to say about it.

3) Schizophrenia does not mean the same as multipesonal disorder.

[BisectedBrioche]

3) Schizophrenia does not mean the same as multipesonal disorder.

I don't recall saying it was.

[NeonRonin]

I wouldn't say Miko is full-bore loony... at least not yet. I think she is terribly confused. Although the delusions of grandeur does seem to fit, it might be a mere side effect of the praise she has received up until now. She is not really a sociopath either, just very socially inept. Probably a result of the cloistered life led up to now.

I think the confusion lies in that she has always seen the world as black and white, and now that she has to deal with all the shades of grey in between, she lashes out in the way she feels is 'right'. Which unfortunately seems to be 'anything that deviates from law and the path of righteousness, even if only slightly, is evil and must be killed'.

If I knew where she picked up the mindset of kill anything evil without question, I might be inclined to have more sympathy for her... but as of now, her actions have not done anything to endear her to me. Flaws aside, her attitude continually rubs me the wrong way.

Probably because of her refusal to make Gather Information checks or Sense Motive checks...

[Ave]

Another Miko post.. and another reply of me.


Now, while the hateful crowd will put her as crazy, ugly and unshaved...

Hey, i don't mind she is unshaved, she lacks facial hair anyway.
She isn't ugly for a stick figure either.
Crazy... well, definitely.

[PsyBlade]

I believe she was temporarily insane. She may have regained her sanity, but it comes with the possibility that she still believes she is right. Therefore she might become like that dwarf 'paladin' from the Goblins comic. In other words, she'll go hunting any form of evil.

[Xiander]

I don't recall saying it was.

Some one else did.

[Rift_Wolf]

Here's my theory;

Despite being a Paladin, she's low on Wisdom. While not comedically short on wisdom (Ala Belkar or Xykon), she isn't packing any deep intuition. This, coupled with low Sense Motive scores (She has yet to Sense a Motive correctly, I think) and a blinding irrationality in respect to the Order of the Stick (Because they don't like her, they're evil, and because they're evil, they must want to destroy the world) have resulted in her falling. I don't believe she's insane, or evil. I think she makes wrong decisions and doesn't like to admit she was wrong.

[Iranon]

Sane as far as I can tell, with a possibility of 'Thog's Syndrome', as you put it.

She'd probably be a lot less high-strung if she had a friend or confidant.

[Kreistor]

Given her final reaction to Hinjo's offer, which she responded to with an attack, Paranoid Schizophrenic comes to mind.

[the_tick_rules]

maybe schizo cause she does haveone of the signs of a form of schizo, delusions of grandeaur. Basically here's my interpetation of how Miko thinks. I have no personal will, I am the instrument of the gods>the gods are infallible>therefore I am infallible> therefore anyone who opposes me is therefore oppossing the gods and must be eliminated.

[Strengfellow]

I voted sane, with a side order of thouroughly unpleasnt.

the tick rules makes a valid point regarding her deluded state of mind, that having been said it's only example of her being deluded that I can recall and one swallow does not a spring make.

Not to say that a nice hug yourself jacket wouldnt go amiss as a sartorial addition to her wardrobe.
This isnt because she is insane, it's because shes a monumental chuff up.

[Bork The Fallen]

Wooo! that one is close!!

considering all she speaks about the twelve gods guiding her path is a misterious way and the oots forcing her to kill Shojo, I would consider her at least weak-minded(for the sake of not thinking properly and jumping to conclusions at such a speed that is only allowed to monks).

For that I vote schizophrenic

and, although not my point, a dialog with thog would be nice...

[Setra]

She always kind of struck me as Bipolar.

[happyturtle]

She had a psychotic episode in the throne room, but we haven't seen enough of her since to really say. She could be having a nice long sane and remorseful prayer to the twelve gods, or she could be hallucinating them explaining to her that they needed to remove her powers as part of their plans, and that she's the only paladin special enough to be chosen for this particular purpose.

There's also the possibility of minor memory loss of the events around the fall. While I really hate using amnesia as a literary device, it isn't uncommon for the events surrounding a blow to the head to be a bit hazy.

[Om]

Is Miko clinically insane? Most certainly not. That rules out most of those poll options. Despite everything that Miko has done there is no evidence that she has not been in full possession of her faculties. I'll remind people that schizophrenia is a full blown medical condition.

Of course merely being sane does not stop Miko from being deluded, wrong and a right b*itch. Many people walking around today manage all three at the same time. She is a religious nut who honestly believes that what she is doing is right. That is not insanity.

[Spiky]

She always kind of struck me as Bipolar.
Yet another misunderstood affliction, and not remotely similar to Miko. She has never been both up and down, she has only ever shown one kind of drive, just increasingly intense about it. And now definitely bordering on insanity if not over the edge.

[BisectedBrioche]

She always kind of struck me as Bipolar.

Bi-polar's just a shift between the symptoms of depression and symptoms similar to schizophrenia (don't quote me on that, my knowledge of psychology only goes up to A level).

[archon_huskie]

Sanity is a construction of the legal system. Since she is in control of her actions, she is sane.

[Lemur]

Miko doesn't have any major mental disorders. She probably has some kind of personality disorder, which often have some overlap and are a bit harder to classify.

She might have Antisocial Personality Disorder. However, it's probably something like Schizoid Personality Disorder or Schizotypal Personality Disorder. She definitely suffers from paranoid delusions, and my best guess is for Schizotypal Personality Disorder.

[happyturtle]

Bipolar shifts between depression and mania. Mania can be dangerous, but it isn't like schizophrenia. The mood is elevated, but the perceptions are not altered the way they are in schizophrenia.

What about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)?


At least five of the following are necessary for a diagnosis (as with many DSM diagnoses, they must form a pervasive pattern; for example, a person who shows these criteria only in one or two relationships or situations would not properly be diagnosed with NPD):

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people
4. requires excessive admiration
5. strong sense of entitlement
6. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
9. arrogant affect.

[Setra]

Bipolar shifts between depression and mania. Mania can be dangerous, but it isn't like schizophrenia. The mood is elevated, but the perceptions are not altered the way they are in schizophrenia.

What about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)?
Last I checked, narcissism wasn't a personality disorder, just a very annoying trait.

Off Topic Rant
Jeez, does everything "wrong" with a person have to be classified as a disorder now?

Hyper kids? ADHD, they're just HYPER, try not giving them so much sugar, I mean really! It's just a excuse for bad parenting. Even if it IS a disorder, people should stop looking at it as an excuse! A kid with ADHD can become a productive member of society, don't think your bad parenting is off the hook just because the child is 'disabled'.

I have more I could rant about but I already feel better

[DraPrime]

I think that Miko is insanely irrational to a ridiculous point. She gets blasted by the gods and thinks that they have a special path for her. That special path is DEATH.

[Setra]

I think that Miko is insanely irrational to a ridiculous point. She gets blasted by the gods and thinks that they have a special path for her. That special path is DEATH.
Well all know she's "special"

[Estelindis]

Miko is teetering on the brink of insanity, but she's still holding on to sanity by a thread.

[Setra]

I'm trying to figure out if this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html) is something a Sociopath would do. Or if it's just something else.

Either way it's awesome.

[Abacab]

thog's Syndrome: She just needs a hug!


But if anyone tried to hug her, she would try to murder or torture them. A hug, therefore, would be absolutely pointless and would not cure her (supposed) insanity.

(But that would depend on who she kills. If it was :xykon: or :nale: then it would fully benefit the OOTS and countless others, but why would they want to hug :miko: ?

[Innis Cabal]

yes Setra your rant is correct, i would go into it more but real life is a banable defense, so on to the topic
She is not insane, she reall thinks she has done the right thing. Thats called misguided, not crazy

[Krytha]

What does completely delusional fall under? I'm not checking my text book or the DSM4

[Innis Cabal]

it just counts as being delusional, unless you start to see things that arnt there, and then you start to be put on the crazy list. Insanity is really a matter of degrees....everyone is a little crazy, just depends on how crazy you are

[brian c]

Here's my theory;

Despite being a Paladin, she's low on Wisdom. While not comedically short on wisdom (Ala Belkar or Xykon), she isn't packing any deep intuition. This, coupled with low Sense Motive scores (She has yet to Sense a Motive correctly, I think) and a blinding irrationality in respect to the Order of the Stick (Because they don't like her, they're evil, and because they're evil, they must want to destroy the world) have resulted in her falling. I don't believe she's insane, or evil. I think she makes wrong decisions and doesn't like to admit she was wrong.

Well... if you make wrong decisions and are too stubborn to admit you are wrong, that doesn't imply anything about sanity or alignment. Miko not only doesn't admit that she's wrong, but she steadfastly believes that she is still right, and is willing to kill other people because she thinks they deserve to die. That isn't very Good or Lawful, as those terms are defined in D&D alignment (especially the killing part)

[Psychonaut]

Last I checked, narcissism wasn't a personality disorder, just a very annoying trait.

As mental disorders go, personality disorders tend to be the ones that people don't really "believe in" since they involve traits that can be seen as "outliers" on continuums of behavioral norms (e.g. narcissism, as opposed to the auditory hallucinations common to schizophrenia, which are clearly abnormal) and lack clear physical symptoms (such as the increased ventricle size in schizophrenics). One thing to keep in mind is that psychopathology is the general study of abnormal behavior and so even behavioral outliers fall into the range of what it studies. Classification doesn't differentiate between what people usually see as "real" disorders and what people don't see as "real" disorders because it's a hard distinction to make, once you start to think about it: what parameters exactly must be met for a disorder to be considered "real"? (Incidentally, the most obvious-seeming answer may be direct physical evidence for abnormality, but in fact most disorders covered by psychopathology - the field that studies schizophrenia and ASPD - don’t involve abnormal behavior that occurs directly as a result of observable biological abnormalities, which are generally studied instead by neuropsychologists and psychobiologists.)

So inevitably some disorders are described in the DSM that people won’t agree with completely as disorders but which, at the very least, can be useful diagnostic categories for professionals to use when considering treatments (and most mental disorders in the DSM-IV basically come down to that, since symptoms for most disorders tend to vary drastically from patient to patient). Similarly, some things aren't included that some people would include for the same reasons - they don't make useful diagnostic tools (religious/spiritual beliefs about one's relationship with god - such as thinking oneself a divine messenger or prophet - isn't classified by psychologists as a general sign of delusions of grandeur, for instance, even though it can be in specific cases and many people argue that it is in all cases). So while Narcissistic Personality Disorder may seem like a silly classification with conceptually vague lines, the existence of such a classification can still be used to help people. Because there's so much variability from person to person, the DSM isn't supposed to be an objective standard defining the exact parameters of each disorder, but rather merely a useful diagnostic tool - much like how many here (including myself) view alignments in D&D.

{Edited to add: Well, maybe the DSM is supposed to be an objective standard in theory, I'm not sure, but that's not how it's used at any rate - no self-respecting psychiatrist goes flips through his DSM and checks off symptoms to come up with diagnoses, partially because by its vague and relatively loose standards there would be a great deal of overdiagnosis - it tries to minimize false negatives in diagnosis, not to minimize false positives.}


Jeez, does everything "wrong" with a person have to be classified as a disorder now?

Classifications aren’t based on some random group of snooty intellectual psychologists sitting around trying to define what is right and what is wrong, but on abnormal behaviors that cause significant distress or harm to the actor or those around him/her (that's partially why personality disorders, considered "unscientific" by many, are included anyway - they represent patterns of behavioral abnormality that occur together often enough to make them useful diagnostic tools). If anything, the debate in the field is over what behavior is “abnormal” enough to be used in classifications, not what behavior is “wrong” or should be stopped; in some cases, such as the milder cases of bipolar or ADD, many clinicians don't believe that treatment is beneficial, as in such cases disorders can have benefits that outweigh their drawbacks to the disordered individual (but which are still abnormal). So disorder != "bad" or "something wrong with the person".


Hyper kids? ADHD, they're just HYPER, try not giving them so much sugar, I mean really! It's just a excuse for bad parenting. Even if it IS a disorder, people should stop looking at it as an excuse!

{public safety announcement regarding Ritalin}

I hear things along these lines quite often, especially about ADD/ADHD, and there’s always a few ways I agree and a few ways I disagree with the general view, but a few points should definitely be stressed:

1) ADHD *is* a real disorder that can cause a great of distress for both the child and the parents. Very basically, current cognitive theory suggests that ADHD occurs because of inhibitory neural mechanisms that are at work in most people’s memory but not the memory of people with ADHD. When thinking of a concept in memory, you activate related concepts (when thinking of “dog”, these might include “animal”, “mammal”, “pet”, etc.) and attributes (“tail”, “four legs”, etc.) and can be shown to be primed for these other concepts, but you can also selectively inhibit their activation to focus on the attributes you desire to focus upon. Ritalin works because it “turns back on” [more of] these inhibitory mechanisms.
The fact that it's real, of course, doesn't excuse parents who are in fact doing a bad job of handling it; but I would keep in mind that their kids do have a much more difficult time learning (and that that includes learning basic social rules and responsibilities) and paying attention or concentrating on a single thing, and, more generally, that bad parenting is not responsible for all problem behavior and good parenting doesn't necessarily lead to good behavior.

2) Having stated that it's real, I should add that ADHD is horribly, horribly overdiagnosed, perhaps the most overdiagnosed psychological disorder, largely for the very reasons you mention: lazy parents with active kids who want to be able to give them drugs to get them to stay still or be quiet. But it doesn't have to be all that intentional either - because it's overdiagnosed, a lot of parents may genuinely believe their overactive kid simply has ADHD. That's why the following must be stressed:

3) This is a major problem because a common view among psychiatrists is that Ritalin is the most cost- and time-effective, efficient way of dealing with ADHD. But Ritalin is quite bad for you if taken continuously for long periods of time and even those who have been diagnosed with ADHD should look into alternative methods of treatment and use it only if absolutely necessary; parents who just want a diagnosis to get their kids to stop bouncing off the walls should *definitely* not give their kids Ritalin or other stimulants unless they want to potentially cause much worse problems later on. IIRC (though I'm not sure), you also get tolerant to Ritalin pretty quickly as well, which would compound the problem because patients would have to increase their dosage over time, and it's already somewhat addictive stuff (furthermore, if the kid does have ADHD, s/he may already be at increased risk for substance abuse).

{/public safety announcement}

Now, focusing on the OP's question about Miko, I’d have to say none of the above (or the "sane" option, for the moment). Someone earlier said that she qualifies as weak-minded and therefore schizophrenia, but that’s not how disorders work, really. Schizophrenia is extremely rare and usually quite debilitating, and while Miko may be just starting to develop it, I don’t see any evidence for that – maybe some delusions of grandeur, but that’s about all, and delusions of grandeur can be difficult to separate from other things (such as a general solipsist-like outlook on the world, or just plain arrogance and self-centeredness). Besides, I believe (but am not sure) that symptoms usually start developing in the mid- to late-teens. And I don’t really see any evidence to suggest hallucinations thus far, which are the real biggie in a schizophrenia diagnosis.

I'm doubting on sociopathy as well, though it’s a stronger contender. That's partially because I’m always hesitant to make any judgment when it comes to personality disorders; you can make an argument for almost any person for at least one of the personality disorders and two or more for many – (e.g. you could make arguments for Miko exhibiting signs borderline personality disorder as well: black-and-white thinking, alternating idealization and devaluation for Shojo at least, suggestions – mostly from other characters like Redcloak and her own actions – that her sense of self is unstable, impulsivity, inappropriate intense anger/difficulty controlling anger, etc.). Partially it’s that only recently has she committed actions characterizing the “chaotic” aspects of antisocial personality disorder – and you have to admit that some of the symptoms are quite “chaotic”-oriented when translated into D&D terms – and APD tends to have fully developed by the late teens, to the best of my knowledge.

Incidentally, as alluded to earlier, "insane"/"sane" are legal terms, not regularly used in diagnoses of mental disorder. "Insane" is normally used in courts of law to denote "not capable of telling right from wrong".

[Jari Kafghan]

She just needs a hug. A long, strong...hug.

Around the neck.

[Setra]

As mental disorders go, personality disorders tend to be the ones that people don't really "believe in" since they involve traits that can be seen as "outliers" on continuums of behavioral norms (e.g. narcissism, as opposed to the auditory hallucinations common to schizophrenia, which are clearly abnormal) and lack clear physical symptoms (such as the increased ventricle size in schizophrenics). One thing to keep in mind is that psychopathology is the general study of abnormal behavior and so even behavioral outliers fall into the range of what it studies.
snip
My eyes hurt.

I know that I am not totally correct in my views, I never am, but I state them anyways. I suppose my main point was that a kid with ADHD is still just a kid, and you should parent them thus, medication is not a cure.

I've been on medication, over 6 pills a day, from 5 years old, to 15 or so. Medication that, to me, hurt more than it helped. I suppose I just have something against drugging up kids.

You're very well informed, I'd like to add. Are you a Psychology Major?

More on topic: After thinking about it some, I'd say she's delusional, but not to the point of insanity. She's also incredibly arrogant, so that just makes it harder for her to admit to herself that she might be wrong, if she did, well it'd be a start.

[moscatabaco]

She's a bit on the looney side, but I don't think she's a full-blown crazy... not yet. :belkar: is IMO closer to that.

[Jawajoey]

Wow, great writeup, junovalkyrie. Thanks for clearing up the Personality Disorder thing. I, like the original commenter, think it's kind of ridiculous what's assigned a name and called a disorder these days. Basically, personality traits are being called disorders. But it's good and enlightening to know that the distinction is known in the psychology world, and not as over-reactive as the drug and bad parent industries would make it seem.

Miko, I think schizophrenic and sociopath are both very bad ways to characterize her problem, at least in that there are much better ways. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is much more like it.

I don't think she's still sane.
-She came to a conclusion from inconclusive evidence. (Xykon is alive, ergo the OOTS (who register as not evil) are in league with him) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html).
-She held to her questionable belief despite the signs that she could be wrong. (Xykon's genuine non-recognition of the OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html), Roy's genuine shock at her accusation that he's Xykon's ally (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html), then there's the fact that she's passing ultimate judgment on their character without any knowledge of their motives or pasts, and with a detect evil scan sh administered herself. note: none of that is necessarily proof to anyone that what Miko says isn't true, but Miko is entirely blind to the existence of such facts right in front of her face.)
-Hinjo appealed to her sense of reason and law (406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html))
-Hinjo appealed to her emotions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)
-Hinjo pointed out a direct flaw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) in her logic, which she was incapable of addressing.
-After almost submitting, she changes her mind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html), in favor of going back to crazy thoughts.
-After definitive proof (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) that she was wrong, she elaborated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) on her ridiculous notions.
-She after the commotion, after emotions wore down, and she had time to consider her actions, she continued to deny the factually undeniable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)

If all of her irrationality was at the height of her emotions, I'd be willing to dismiss it. But she is consistently and staggeringly resistant to apparent truths and anything that does not support a notion that doesn't involve someone else deserving death. Think, even if she was justified in anything she did, why would she attack Hinjo? Why would she press the attack after he was almost beaten into submission. She was in blind, uncontrollable fury.

That's the main thing right there. She's filled with rage, she's entirely irrational, and she's completely arrogant. None of those are usually enough to make someone insane, but she is not aware or in control of any of it. She is incapable of reason, calming her fury, or submission to anything. She can't overcome, and she can't recognize, her psychological problems. The most rational thing she has done since her fall was to not go insane with rage will her jail cell.

Until someone beats enough humility in her for her to realize that she isn't the best thing since sliced bread, (apparently, Roy didn't beat her enough), she'll be incapable of considering the possibility that she's wrong, and she'll be unable to exert any control over her rage.


In short: Her consistent, long term lack of control over her rage, and rampant irrationality, makes her just enough to be insane.

Amusing sidenote: I can imagine that some people will disagree with me, especially once they realize that everything (except for the rage part) that I cited as wrong with Miko applies to Religious fundamentalists. A biblical literalist fits Miko's insanity profile pretty well. That makes me happy.

[BisectedBrioche]

I know that I am not totally correct in my views, I never am, but I state them anyways. I suppose my main point was that a kid with ADHD is still just a kid, and you should parent them thus, medication is not a cure.

I've been on medication, over 6 pills a day, from 5 years old, to 15 or so. Medication that, to me, hurt more than it helped. I suppose I just have something against drugging up kids.
In psychology drugs tend to be the most popular treatment for mental illness. The main reason for this is the relatively low cost of most drugs (with exceptions) and fairly rapid results (again, with exceptions such as Prozac which can take several weeks to have an effect).

The only significant problem with drugs are the side effects. For example schizophrenia can easily be treated with a drug, and a medicated schizophrenic is completely indistinct to a "normal" person, however the patient not only has to take the drug but several others to combat the side effects of each other.

[Om]

What does completely delusional fall under?Sanity. Which seems to be the crux of the matter here.

You do not need a certifiable mental illness to be delusional or do terrible, terrible things. Being irrational, even constantly so, does not warrant a visit from the men in white coats.

If we look at Jawajoey's list above we see that there's no point there that can be considered the symptom of an illness. Miko is stunningly delusional, to the point where she is unable to address flaws in her logic, but that's not all that uncommon. As I said above, she is a religious fanatic; a class of people not prone to in depth examination of their own motives or logic.

[happyturtle]

Yeah, but the side effects of schizophrenia are a lot worse.

Anyway, we have no evidence that Miko is hearing voices, and given that she's anxious to understand the will of the gods, I think her brain would manufacture the voices of the twelve gods if she was schizophrenic.

[BisectedBrioche]

Yeah, but the side effects of schizophrenia are a lot worse.

Anyway, we have no evidence that Miko is hearing voices, and given that she's anxious to understand the will of the gods, I think her brain would manufacture the voices of the twelve gods if she was schizophrenic.

You don;t actually have to hear voices to be schizophrenic.

[Psychonaut]

My eyes hurt.

Sorry - in the context of this discussion, I'm not sure if it would help to mention that I commonly exhibit behavior reminiscent of OCD (see? - you can diagnose anyone with a personality disorder), the relevant example being that I have a tendency to follow tangential lines of thought without even realizing it until someone stops me... or I suddenly realize that I've just typed up two pages worth of them. You think V's bad? Be glad you've never heard me attempt to explain something. :smallredface: (Fortunately with writing I have a bit more control than in my speech, which can be nearly incomprehensible at times because I don't have time to plan it out.)


You're very well informed, I'd like to add. Are you a Psychology Major?

Thanks. Psychologist, actually - though I'm a researcher, not a therapist, and I don't deal with disorders so my knowledge on psychopathology is relatively basic (mostly what I remember from a class I took 8 years ago) and may not be entirely up-to-date. I thought I'd throw in my two cents anyway, though. Or really, I had to after I saw someone mention that Miko had exhibited a weak mind and thus probably had schizophrenia (having previously worked at a mental hospital and interacted with people who would have been quite happy in comparison if all that was afflicting them was a "weak mind"). Besides, the reaction to "narcissistic personality disorder", ADHD, and other similar concepts is one I've encountered before, and I wanted to make sure that people understand there isn't just some guy somewhere arbitrarily deciding what behaviors are "right"/normal and "wrong"/disorders (we've tried to avoid crowning any kings of psychology ever since the whole fiasco with that Sigmund fellow :smallbiggrin:) and that the diagnostic criteria for disorders is far from definitive.


I suppose my main point was that a kid with ADHD is still just a kid, and you should parent them thus, medication is not a cure.

I've been on medication, over 6 pills a day, from 5 years old, to 15 or so. Medication that, to me, hurt more than it helped. I suppose I just have something against drugging up kids.

I actually agree - when I was starting out and wanted to be a clinician, I considered going into medicine and becoming a psychiatrist but I decided that my time would be better spent in other areas for that very sort of reason - it didn't jive with my personal philosophy. I feel that drugs can be useful at times and I remember studying a few disorders in my old psychopathology class for which they were the only effective treatment, but most of the time cognitive or behavioral techniques are far more effective at producing reliable, lasting results, and in cases where drugs are effective, they're more effective when supplemented with other therapies. And as ADHD exemplifies, even if drugs are effective for short-term treatment of symptoms, they can lead to other negative effects in the long run.

Bisected8:


The only significant problem with drugs are the side effects. For example schizophrenia can easily be treated with a drug, and a medicated schizophrenic is completely indistinct to a "normal" person, however the patient not only has to take the drug but several others to combat the side effects of each other.

I'm not sure I agree entirely. Drugs can actually be quite expensive, although in such cases unless no other option is available other treatments tend to be preferred, so the more expensive ones aren't as salient. {Edit: Also, a common problem is that they often lose effectiveness over time and schizophrenics often have to switch medications for continued effectiveness, leading eventually to cycles of "juggling" different brands that work less and less...} However, I definitely disagree with the idea that a medicated schizophrenic is completely indistinct from a "normal" person, unless you mean behaviorally (in which case an unmedicated schizophrenic may be as well, at intermittent - but sometimes lengthy - intervals throughout the illness or when it's starting to develop). In terms of subjective experience, I suggest reading almost any account by a schizophrenic of his/her experiences; most find that the drugs help to reduce some of the problems (e.g. lithium might help with emotional regulation, clozapine with reducing hallucinations, etc.), but still describe a perceptual world far different from what you or I experience. Often, for instance, in cases with auditory hallucinations, medication can help so that the voices are essentially "still there, just quieter", but not eliminate them completely (which is a problem when you've got a disorder where relapse rates are so high).

{Edited to add: This also highlights another problem with medication - it's not always as helpful as one would hope but creates the illusion of treatment in such cases, such that it may delay patients' seeking more effective forms of treatment.}

Schizophrenia is a good example of a disorder in which medication is quite useful, though - without medication, it would be impossible for many patients to get grounded enough to even begin other forms of therapy.

Jawajoey: For Miko, I guess I have difficulty seeing her as a narc because I can see a great number of people reacting similarly in her situation, despite being one who generally takes an "anti-Miko" position. It's not unusual for people to a) hold themselves or their beliefs to be somehow "special" or better than others, and it's pretty common to b) be more receptive to evidence that supports one's current beliefs (by which I mean not just more accepting, but more attentive as well) and less receptive to evidence that doesn't and c) act irrationally and remain unconvinced by logical arguments that contradict one's current beliefs, especially when emotionally involved or invested in them. It's not that I think anyone else would have acted the same way in her position, but that I think her reactions thus far have been far from abnormal.

[happyturtle]

Yes, most people tend to exhibit 'confirmation bias' by giving more weight to evidence that supports their own beliefs, but most people would not react to that evidence by murdering someone... particularly someone who had been a sort of father-figure to them.

[Om]

Yes, most people tend to exhibit 'confirmation bias' by giving more weight to evidence that supports their own beliefs, but most people would not react to that evidence by murdering someoneClearly you are not a student of history :smallwink:

[happyturtle]

Then let me amend that to 'most people with modern values', which despite the fantasy environment, describes the inhabitants of Stickworld.

[jindra34]

My vote she is not crazy but conitually stressed to the breaking point by her "special" view, thus anything slightly out of the expected causes her to snap into a furious rage... wait isn't that some kind of crazy... oh well

[BisectedBrioche]

Clearly you are not a student of history :smallwink:

Or sociology, not that I admit to being :smalltongue:

[Aimbot]

Sane, but pushed past her breaking point. She made a judgment call that was faulty, that the OOTS was plotting against Azure City, and slowly built herself up on that bad foundation. When the stress of feeling she had to save her kingdom was agitated by numerous enemies, real or imagined, the foundation crumbled. I think, after seeing her expression in the last comic, she realized her mistake.


I'm trying to figure out if this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html) is something a Sociopath would do. Or if it's just something else.

Either way it's awesome.

Yeah, that made me like the character a lot more.

[AndrewM]

I figure I'll inject a little lawyerspeak into this mostly-psychiatric discussion...

You have to remember, the term "insane" refers to a legal state, not any kind of psychiatric disorder. Someone with antisocial personality disorder is, by the law, still totally sane.

England, and a few other countries, use the M'Naghten Rules, established in M'Naghten's Case (1843) 10 C & F 200, when determining the legal sanity of an accused. The statement is:

"To establish a defense on the ground of insanity, it must clearly be proved that, at the time of the committing of the act, the party accused was laboring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing; or if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing was wrong” (Melton, 1997, p. 191) (http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/insanity/3.html).

So, essentially, to be found "not guilty by reason of insanity" someone has to either not know what they were doing or, if they did know it, not be able to tell it was wrong (in the legal sense).

In Miko's case, the case would hinge on whether she, at the time, knew the act she was committing (the murder of her Lord) was wrong. Mind you, legally wrong, not morally wrong. It doesn't matter in the slightest if she thought it was morally and ethically the right thing to do. She would have to prove, on a "balance of probabilities' scale, that she was incapable, due to a defect of the mind, of understanding that the act she was committing was illegal under the law of the land.

Someone may now claim that "Miko thought it was the right thing to do, so she couldn't know it was wrong!" or "Miko thought the gods instructed her to do it!" Unfortunately, merely being delusional is not an excuse: "The judges were asked in M'Naghten's Case if a person could be excused if he committed an offence in consequence of an insane delusion. They replied that if he labours under such partial delusion only, and is not in other respects insane, "he must be considered in the same situation as to responsibility as if the facts with respect to which the delusion exists were real". This rule requires the court to take the facts as the accused believed them to be. If the delusions do not prevent the defendant from having mens rea, there will be no defence. In R v Bell (1984) Crim. LR 685 the defendant used a van to smash through the entrance gates of a holiday camp because, "It was like a secret society in there, I wanted to do my bit against it" as instructed by God. It was held that, as the defendant had been aware of his actions, he could not have been in a state of automatism nor insane, and the fact that he believed that God had told him to do this merely provided an explanation of his motive and did not prevent him from knowing that what he was doing was wrong in the legal sense." [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%27Naghten_Rules#Delusions) This long judgment is summed up in one of the American additions to the M'Naghten rules: "Persons acting under the influence of an insane delusion are punishable if they knew at the time of committing the crime that they were acting contrary to law. [2] (http://www.lawrence.edu/fast/boardmaw/mcntn_rules.html)""

So, there we can see that regardless of how Miko felt about Shinjo, or whether she thought the gods had instructed her to murder him, she is not insane unless it can be shown that she not only believed it was the right thing to do but she, through defect of the mind, thought that it was not an illegal act. Looking at the comic, I'd say it's about more probable she simply believed it was good and right than that she did not actually believe her act to be illegal.

Of course, all of this is built off common law precedents that quite possible do not exist in the Azure city courts. Considering the more active role gods play, it might certainly be grounds for a defense that you believed the gods wanted you to kill someone...

[I am not a lawyer, and do not assure any of this tirade's correctness... Though I do hope to be one some day...]

[BisectedBrioche]

I figure I'll inject a little lawyerspeak into this mostly-psychiatric discussion...

You have to remember, the term "insane" refers to a legal state, not any kind of psychiatric disorder. Someone with antisocial personality disorder is, by the law, still totally sane.

England, and a few other countries, use the M'Naghten Rules, established in M'Naghten's Case (1843) 10 C & F 200, when determining the legal sanity of an accused. The statement is:

"To establish a defense on the ground of insanity, it must clearly be proved that, at the time of the committing of the act, the party accused was laboring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing; or if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing was wrong” (Melton, 1997, p. 191) (http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/insanity/3.html).

So, essentially, to be found "not guilty by reason of insanity" someone has to either not know what they were doing or, if they did know it, not be able to tell it was wrong (in the legal sense).

In Miko's case, the case would hinge on whether she, at the time, knew the act she was committing (the murder of her Lord) was wrong. Mind you, legally wrong, not morally wrong. It doesn't matter in the slightest if she thought it was morally and ethically the right thing to do. She would have to prove, on a "balance of probabilities' scale, that she was incapable, due to a defect of the mind, of understanding that the act she was committing was illegal under the law of the land.

Someone may now claim that "Miko thought it was the right thing to do, so she couldn't know it was wrong!" or "Miko thought the gods instructed her to do it!" Unfortunately, merely being delusional is not an excuse: "The judges were asked in M'Naghten's Case if a person could be excused if he committed an offence in consequence of an insane delusion. They replied that if he labours under such partial delusion only, and is not in other respects insane, "he must be considered in the same situation as to responsibility as if the facts with respect to which the delusion exists were real". This rule requires the court to take the facts as the accused believed them to be. If the delusions do not prevent the defendant from having mens rea, there will be no defence. In R v Bell (1984) Crim. LR 685 the defendant used a van to smash through the entrance gates of a holiday camp because, "It was like a secret society in there, I wanted to do my bit against it" as instructed by God. It was held that, as the defendant had been aware of his actions, he could not have been in a state of automatism nor insane, and the fact that he believed that God had told him to do this merely provided an explanation of his motive and did not prevent him from knowing that what he was doing was wrong in the legal sense." [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%27Naghten_Rules#Delusions) This long judgment is summed up in one of the American additions to the M'Naghten rules: "Persons acting under the influence of an insane delusion are punishable if they knew at the time of committing the crime that they were acting contrary to law. [2] (http://www.lawrence.edu/fast/boardmaw/mcntn_rules.html)""

So, there we can see that regardless of how Miko felt about Shinjo, or whether she thought the gods had instructed her to murder him, she is not insane unless it can be shown that she not only believed it was the right thing to do but she, through defect of the mind, thought that it was not an illegal act. Looking at the comic, I'd say it's about more probable she simply believed it was good and right than that she did not actually believe her act to be illegal.

Of course, all of this is built off common law precedents that quite possible do not exist in the Azure city courts. Considering the more active role gods play, it might certainly be grounds for a defense that you believed the gods wanted you to kill someone...

[I am not a lawyer, and do not assure any of this tirade's correctness... Though I do hope to be one some day...]

Ah, but who said that we were going by a legal definition? There are several different definitions of abnormality in psychology, admitidly that all have their flaws.

[AndrewM]

Ah, but who said that we were going by a legal definition? There are several different definitions of abnormality in psychology, admitidly that all have their flaws.

The term "insane" is, by definition, a legal concept. The term is not used by any medical practitioners. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insane)

If you wanted medical info, I think the thread title could have better been "Does Miko suffer from a recognized mental disorder as defined by the DSM and/or ICD-9/10?" :smallbiggrin:

[jindra34]

The term "insane" is, by definition, a legal concept. The term is not used by any medical practitioners. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insane)

If you wanted medical info, I think the thread title could have better been "Does Miko suffer from a recognized mental disorder as defined by the DSM and/or ICD-9/10?" :smallbiggrin:

How 'bout we use the common man definition and consider insane to be synonymous with crazy/mentally unstable/what have you
ok?

[AndrewM]

Just to be clear, the title I suggested was a joke. I'm not faulting anyone for using insane in the colloquial sense :smalltongue:

My point was simply to show that there were multiple dimensions to the issue of whether Miko was insane. While there's the psychiatric definition of insane, you can also be legally insane, morally insane, religiously insane... It's just another way of looking at the issue

[Noneoyabizzness]

see I'd have more gone on aN OCD with severe agression issues. her needs for all the laws she is used to being followed and all her compulsions to be exactly enacted shows more than any of the other things.

the schizo is the alternate wich matches her more recent actions, though

[Demented]

With all this preceding debate, thus follows the ultimate question:

Could Thog's Syndrome be a mental disorder?

[Darkxarth]

In my opinion, she's not insane, but she is quite irrational. Total or near-total devotion to a single cause or idea can often bring out this trait. However, I don't think she's any kind of clinically insane.

[Psychonaut]

Yes, most people tend to exhibit 'confirmation bias' by giving more weight to evidence that supports their own beliefs, but most people would not react to that evidence by murdering someone... particularly someone who had been a sort of father-figure to them.

Aye, that and the fact that she so quickly jumped to the conclusion that killing was the only solution and carried it out on a loved one without looking back or showing any sign of remorse/regret, just anger. I had intended merely to suggest that her warped reasoning/the bizarre chain of thoughts and weak "evidence" that led her to believe Shojo evil and part of a conspiracy with the OotS may not all that warped or bizarre when considering how people normally reason (i.e. her reasoning hasn't been particularly "insane" in and of itself, even if her actions suggest "insanity"). Although NPD looks appealling, most of its appeal has to do with how she's been reasoning; the case studies of NPD I remember studying were usually more extreme and less explainable in terms of normal human reasoning processes. Then again, due to the nature of the class they often were textbook "clear cases" that fulfilled DSM criteria perfectly, so it's hard to tell how representative they truly were of the patient population.

Looking at it from another angle, another consistency across her more destructive actions is her anger and more generally, she certainly does seem to be scowling quite often - far more frequently than any other character - and even Belkar picks up on the fact that she's so full of rage that he could goad her into killing him. Certainly, this seems like an abnormal trait, in the stick figure world as well as ours (there's some unique "Lawfulness" to her anger; even Belkar, angry though he is, doesn't really take his rage as seriously as she does or even display that much utter hatred for others in comparison). In contrast, we've seen some silly and serious - though not quite as bad - jumps in logic and errors in reasoning on at least Roy's, Belkar's, Nale's, and Elan's parts as well. (And V's, after the most recent comic, if for nothing else than "There is no other logical explanation."; even without that last panel I would have questioned V's reasoning there, but this line in particular reeks of the same arrogance Miko displays in her reasoning - don't worry, V, I still love ya). And even for all her faulty reasoning, I don't think most people in the same situation with the same basic "facts" wouldn't have killed Shojo so readily, as you mention, and certainly not without remorse about being "forced" to kill their lord (and possibly, father figure). So it seems like it could be more fruitful to focus on her anger regulation problems, bitter, kill-first-ask-questions-later attitude, and their development rather than her reasoning which, while atrocious, could just as easily result from her being human[oid] as her being crazy. (For the frequency with which it's suggested that "reason" places humans the rest of the animals, we are notoriously bad reasoners. :smallamused:)

(Another factor to consider about her reasoning is that memories are not static within the brain, but go through interpretive processes - part of why "short term memory", in modern terms, is called "working memory". As a result, they're subject to similar sorts of confirmation biases and attentional restrictions so that even if Miko *did*, for instance, hear Xykon's "The who?" in response to her mentioning the OotS in #371 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html), that sort of thing could be "edited out" when she recalls the event in a more general way later on (or it might not even make it into memory storage in the first place, since attentional biases also make her less likely to ruminate on it at the time of viewing). We have the advantage of being able to sift through past strips and objectively view her situation, but she may be convinced of her reasoning on the basis of common memory errors parsing out contradictory evidence. It might sound silly, but memory errors of this sort - including errors of far greater magnitude - are actually scarily common, and experimentally quite easy to induce or observe. They're theorized to be the result of some of the same interpretive processes that allow us to process the immense amount of input we receive from our environment and internal factors - such as long-term memory - that needs to be processed and simplified or categorized*. These processes result in imperfections sometimes but prove effective most of the time and are a much more efficient use of cognitive resources than a system that records every instant perfectly.)

* As an example, think of when a dog is presented in your visual field. A dog can be any variety of shapes and sizes now, with any number of different features. You've got your teacup chihuahuas, you've got your German shepherds, you've got your pugs, you've got your huskies, and all of these different types with all sorts of different features. And it's difficult to come up with any real "defining" physical features - even in simple cases like "has four legs", "has fur", and "has a tail" you can come up with exceptions such as a dog that's lost a leg in an accident, a shaved dog, or most Australian shepherds. Besides these distinctions, when distinguishing a dog from other things on your visual field, you're able to recognize that it's a dog even in a variety of different colors (even if it's dyed hot pink, you can tell it's a dog!) and from a variety of different angles in a variety of different positions, such that nearly every time you see a dog a different exact picture is being projected onto your visual field (heck, even the same image will be blurrier or sharper depending on where it is in the visual field). You can even recognize depictions of dogs - even ones as divergent from the real-life appearance of dogs as Belkar's wiener-dog. And despite the diverse and infinite combinations of visual images that can represent "dog" you can see any one of them and seamlessly interpret any of these different images as "dog" without a second thought about it, or even acknowledging that you did so, because your brain is doing all the work required for visual recognition in the background. And that's just one tiny iota of the interpretation your brain's doing for you below the surface at any given moment - ask your local cognitive psychologist to explain to what happens when you read if you want to blow away the afternoon sometime. :smalltongue:

Having a nervous systems rocks. It does all of the hard work for you. :smallbiggrin:

{Edited to add: I would love to go into more detail, since I feel like I'm just throwing out generalities without providing any evidence, but I think my posts are verbose enough and verging on off-topic as is, and I'm not a good explainer... However, if anyone is interested in some references to review articles that give a more specific background on some particular of these more cognitive subjects (e.g. "working memory" and why memory is thought now to be more interpretive instead of static) and either describe or at least reference experimental procedures, I might be able to dredge up a few. Drop me a PM if interested.}

[The Wanderer]

Is Miko insane? Not necessarily. She is a fanatic, as has been pointed, she's also delusional, obsessive, and paranoid. She had a breakdown in the throne room, and the viewpoints that she built her life on kicked out from under her. I think her actions from here onward will tell if she should be considered crazy. She's not there yet in my opinion, but she's certainly close.

[Icewalker]

Hmmmmmm

under that sociopathy choice...

# Impulsive behaviour or failing to plan ahead
# Disregard for the safety of yourself and others
# Short temper
# Irresponsibility (not paying off depts, losing jobs etc)
# No remorse for any pain and/or suffering given to others

Or to sum up these behaviors: Miko. Dunno bout the irresponsibility part, that one not so much. But seriously, it sounded like you trying to describe Miko, not a disorder when I read that. God!

[The Wanderer]

Those more steeped in psycho knowledge can correct me if I'm wrong on this point, but the heart of sociopathy is in pretty much completely lacking a conscience, and generally not seeing other people or beings as "real", or having feelings, thoughts, emotions, or just mattering as you do.

Sociopaths are the ones that are torturing and killing small animals as a kid, and liking it, and grow up to torment, torture and sometimes kill people as adults for little real reason other than it's fun or they want to.

In my opinion sociopaths are just about the lowest end on the psychological scale. Miko is a lot of things, but I don't think she falls into that category.

[Baalzebub]

Sane. otherwise, she'd be CN.

[BisectedBrioche]

With all this preceding debate, thus follows the ultimate question:

Could Thog's Syndrome be a mental disorder?

No, but thog's syndrome could.

[Prince_Rohan]

Feelings of entitlement...check

Hardcore belief that rules don't apply to her...check

Astonishment when the world doesn't conform to her twisted sense of self...double check.

She's not insane, dispite the asian context she's an American woman.


NOW will use her arrest as a publicity opportunity to address some brand new 'syndrome' that drives women to kill heads of state. Any poor woman suffering from this condition can't be held responsible for their actions. OOTS Beware!

[PerryTatchett]

One word: Yes. (Actually this is 13 words, including this, but oh well. Oh no! 13 unlucky! Oops, now its: 21, good.)

[Gallanoth]

Miko definitely has to be sane because she's always aware of all of her surroundings and has clear mind. She doesn't seem to have any real disorders other then a bad case of the classic paladin stick up the ass.

[jindra34]

Miko definitely has to be sane because she's always aware of all of her surroundings and has clear mind. She doesn't seem to have any real disorders other then a bad case of the classic paladin stick up the ass.

She has hyper-tension stress disorder... its what i was describing before but couldn't think of the name

[Jawajoey]

It's not that I think anyone else would have acted the same way in her position, but that I think her reactions thus far have been far from abnormal.

It's not what's wrong with her, it's how wrong it is. She's taken everything to an unsafe extreme. Rage, narcissism, and irrationality aren't enough to make someone insane, not even together, but Miko has all taken all three to the point that she is no longer in strict control of her actions.

She's violently unwilling to change her thoughts, feelings, or actions, and that puts her over the line, for me. But to be fair, she's very close. If she hadn't un-almost calmed down, and if she hadn't murdered someone in cold blood, I'd stay she's still in control enough. But right now, although redeemable and far from hopeless, she's not right in the head.

[Kreistor]

Rage, narcissism, and irrationality

Rage I'll agree with. That has always been in her nature.

Narcissism I don't agree with. I think you're confusing excessive belief in her own beauty with excessive pride, which is hubris.

As for irrationality, she isn't irrational. Her thought processes are fine. 2 plus 2 still equal 4. She creates false beliefs as the foundation of her thought processes. That makes her schizophrenic, not irrational. She is responding rationally to non-existing facts.

[Spiky]

Yes, I've been wondering while reading this thread why on earth narcissism has even been mentioned. Julia, Belkar, possibly V, certainly Nale are narcissists. Not to mention Elan's latest mentor. Miko is many things, but not this.

[Demented]

I'm doubtful Belkar or V are narcissists. Julia not so much either; she's only self-centered. Nale is a grade A narcissist. Julio, on the other hand, is grade AAA! Roy has tendencies, or perhaps that's just a complex.

[Bag_of_Holding]

In my opinion, Miko's just misled by her zeal. A zealot(ess?) she may be, not a lunatic.

[my_evil_twin]

It seems to me pretty clear that, at the time she killed Shojo, Miko was legally insane, or at least misled to the point that she really believed the law was on her side. When she turned on Hinjo, though, she explicitly denied the jurisdiction of the AC courts, so she's legally culpable there.

There's a case to be made here that Roy pushed her over the edge. After he impaled her the first time, she actually tried to reassess her situation. Roy decided this would be a good time to taunt her, so any th
inking she might have done was shot.

I've seen this dynamic at work IRL, albeit not with the stakes so high. Arguments. When two people fight and the party in the wrong (A) steps back to deescalate the situation, B will take this as an opening to press their attack until A has to respond. Now everything's in a worse situation than before, and reason is off the table until somebody has "won."