3.5 Cleric multiclassing?

[Jarmen4u]

I'm playing in a mostly core 3.5 game with a few exceptions, and am currently the party cleric(cloistered). One of our other players is what he calls a "system mastery expert" (read: obnoxious mixmaxer) and can currently one shot almost anyone in the party if he lands a hit (which he probably can) and has threatened to numerous times OOC, despite character alignment. It's quite worrisome.
/rant

Anyway, I was thinking of dipping a level into Monk to pick up the AC bonus from wisdom, as I will be getting magic item(s) from dungeons that will boost my Wis score by a substantial amount (Tome of Understanding, Periapt of Wisdom, etc) This would also help as I have a low Str score, and my light load limit is very low (33 lbs) so getting rid of armor would help that as well. In addition, it would give me an opportunity to drop a few points into Sense Motive as a Monk class skill, which would benefit from the high Wis since I am essentially the party face.

Am I looking at this the right way? Or is there a better way to get what I'm looking for?

Also as an aside, my initial plan was to just go cloistered cleric 20, what am I losing by taking a level in monk? Anything worth mentioning?

Thank you in advance!!

[Crake]

Could you give us some more details about your exact build? Also, what class is he playing, and what level are you guys?

[Jarmen4u]

We're only a few levels in, he's playing a Barbarian variant that he managed to get approved, and is trying to push for Frenzied Berserker. My build is mundane at the moment, as I just have basic starter items (no big loots yet). I'm wearing studded leather at the moment.
My domains are Water and Trickery, and I get Knowledge as a bonus. Not really sure what else to cover build wise, unless you want stats as well.

[ksbsnowowl]

If you're planning to just buy/get lots of magical gear anyway, just get yourself a Monk's Belt (DMG) for 13,000 gp. That will give you the Wisdom to AC that monks get. And it won't cost you a caster level.

Indeed, your party level will play a big part in how to handle this.

[Jarmen4u]

I was considering a Monk's belt, but at the same time I don't know if it's worth the waist slot. Then again, I don't know if it's worth the level :smallbiggrin:
And like I said, levelling monk does give me a few perks I wouldn't get just from the belt. That's why I'm on the fence.

[Threadnaught]

It's either that or a Monk's Belt.

You lose 1 level of Caster Progression, 1 Caster Level, a level of Clerical Knowledge and 1 level of Turn Undead effectiveness.

In order of importance.

[Troacctid]

Your waist slot is waaay less valuable than a level of casting. I would go with the Monk's Belt, not close.

[Jarmen4u]

It's either that or a Monk's Belt.

You lose 1 level of Caster Progression, 1 Caster Level, a level of Clerical Knowledge and 1 level of Turn Undead effectiveness.

In order of importance.

Fair enough. The caster progression isn't as big a worry as it could be, since I will eventually stack enough Wisdom that it won't be an issue.

Eh.

I guess a better way of looking at it would be, what other waist slot items can I get instead of Monk's belt that would fit what I'm going for, to kind of justify taking Monk instead of getting a belt? Things like bonus to Wisdom or AC, or CL, or things like Belt of Many Pockets or other high-utility items. All in all, I'm still fairly inexperienced with 3.5, so I could use all the help I can get :smalltongue:

[DMVerdandi]

1. Why is PVP a concern. This is a team game isn't it?
What class is the other player?
What level are you guys?

2. Loosing a level in cleric reduces your spell caster level, which lowers your Spell DC (the dice check needed to have offensive spells work). It also slows the level that you get new spells. To keep your DC up, practiced spell caster is a must.

3. Alternatives are to simply get a monk's belt. Gives you unarmed attack of a 5th level monk, wis to ac. It's cheap too. Also, buy Ioun Stones. They are also cheap and good items.
Overall, I would suggest against it. You can get a magic item that gives you far more than what you would have taking the level.

4. Do you have spell access to books other than the PHB?

[Crake]

Also, if the player does go into frenzied berzerker, let him know that a 1st level spell will shut him down entirely. Players cannot use balance while in a frenzy, and grease requires a balance check or causes you to fall prone.

Anyway, if the barbarian is flaunting his ability to kill you in one attack, remind him that this is a team game, and if he continues to be obnoxious, remind him that anyone can one shot him while he's sleeping.

[eggynack]

Your waist slot is worth very little, because you can combine magic items in a slot by paying a premium, using rules right out of core. It's also worth incredibly little even without that compared to a caster level. That's what you're losing from a level of monk, and it's possibly the single most valuable thing in the game, falling short only in comparison to massively powerful abilities that augment casting.

In the meantime, I'd advise pointing out that this barbarian is only capable of helping out in combat, and even then only if he's close enough to an enemy for a stabbing, whereas your cleric can completely dominate in just about any given situation, including combat. Sure, he can likely do more damage, but that's such a minor thing in the grand scheme of things. As for your build, you should figure out exactly what "core with some exceptions" means, and make use of those exceptions like crazy. A good prestige class, spell adding book, or set of feats could work wonders.

[Hiro Quester]

You can combine magic items, if some other waist slot item (e.g. belt of giant strength) looks appealing. It just costs 50% more gold to get a magical power aded to an existing item.

But for all the reasons above, saving for a monk's belt will be a far better deal than losing casting, caster level, etc. You also get the Unarmed strike ability of a 5th level monk, by the way.

Edit: Ninja'd

[lsfreak]

While it may (probably) not be appropriate for a mostly-core game, to point out in case you're not aware of it, there's swordsage from Tome of Battle that gives Wis-to-AC in light armor (and by RAW, not when you're unarmored, though it's widely assumed that's part of ToB's stupid editing). So it wouldn't help with weight-carrying, but it would also net you a few more useful abilities in the form of some of the maneuvers. A ToB class is powerful enough that I wouldn't single-class in an otherwise mostly-core game, but a single dip is more agreeable.

Otherwise, I'd go with monk's belt, unless you really feel Sense Motive is important and that cross-classing it doesn't cut it.

[WeaselGuy]

This handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) has some pretty good information for playing a Cleric.

This section (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=t84g8jepbgs9q4quj85hthqd05&topic=420.msg8436#msg8436) in particular talks about multi-classing, dipping and prestige classes, including dipping Monk to pick up Sacred Fist.

[DMVerdandi]

Secondly, at low level you can beat the barbarian.

Challenge him to a duel.

Use sanctuary (or invisibility)
Use calm emotions
Use summon monster

Boosh.

[Troacctid]

I guess a better way of looking at it would be, what other waist slot items can I get instead of Monk's belt that would fit what I'm going for, to kind of justify taking Monk instead of getting a belt? Things like bonus to Wisdom or AC, or CL, or things like Belt of Many Pockets or other high-utility items. All in all, I'm still fairly inexperienced with 3.5, so I could use all the help I can get :smalltongue:

The core game has exactly three magic items that go in the waist slot: Monk's Belt, Belt of Dwarvenkind, and Belt of Giant's Strength.

There may be more options depending on what other materials are allowed, but...yeah.

[Jarmen4u]

1. Why is PVP a concern. This is a team game isn't it?
What class is the other player?
What level are you guys?

2. Loosing a level in cleric reduces your spell caster level, which lowers your Spell DC (the dice check needed to have offensive spells work). It also slows the level that you get new spells. To keep your DC up, practiced spell caster is a must.

3. Alternatives are to simply get a monk's belt. Gives you unarmed attack of a 5th level monk, wis to ac. It's cheap too. Also, buy Ioun Stones. They are also cheap and good items.
Overall, I would suggest against it. You can get a magic item that gives you far more than what you would have taking the level.

4. Do you have spell access to books other than the PHB?

1. Already answered, but basically he's offhandedly threatening OOC to kill the other characters for making jokes/sly remarks about him. We're about 3rd level, he's a variant barbarian who's name I can't remember, and he's building towards Frenzied Berserker, which is pretty infamous.

2/3. Fair points, and I was considering Ioun stones as well. I just wasn't sure if there was a better option for waist than Monk's belt.

4. Not as of yet, but I could always convince the DM to give me some if its not OP.

[Jarmen4u]

While it may (probably) not be appropriate for a mostly-core game, to point out in case you're not aware of it, there's swordsage from Tome of Battle that gives Wis-to-AC in light armor (and by RAW, not when you're unarmored, though it's widely assumed that's part of ToB's stupid editing). So it wouldn't help with weight-carrying, but it would also net you a few more useful abilities in the form of some of the maneuvers. A ToB class is powerful enough that I wouldn't single-class in an otherwise mostly-core game, but a single dip is more agreeable.

Otherwise, I'd go with monk's belt, unless you really feel Sense Motive is important and that cross-classing it doesn't cut it.

Tome of Battle is my favorite splat book, but it's forbidden as far as it's been discussed.

[Telonius]

If you do decide to take a level of Monk, be sure to check out the Sacred Fist prestige class in Complete Divine. It's especially helpful, given the Cloistered Cleric's poor BAB and d6 hitdie. Note that there is a rules ambiguity about the increase in caster level; the table says no caster increase at levels 4 and 8, but the text says you get an increase every level. Text trumps table, so technically it's a full-casting Prestige Class; but some DMs have been known to rule otherwise. The downsides are that it doesn't increase your Cleric level for Turn Undead checks, has a much worse skill selection than Cloistered Cleric, and won't increase your Cloistered Cleric's Lore ability.

If you're really worried about low strength and are going to be maxing out Wisdom, you should look into the Intuitive Attack feat from Book of Exalted Deeds.

[Jarmen4u]

Secondly, at low level you can beat the barbarian.

Challenge him to a duel.

Use sanctuary (or invisibility)
Use calm emotions
Use summon monster

Boosh.

That would work if he wouldn't definitely beat me in initiative, and one shot me. Either way though, I just want to be safe in case he catches me offguard.

[nedz]

If he's threatening the other PCs as well, the obvious thing to do is gang up on him and take him by surprise. After a long fight when he is short of HP is the obvious time. Or you could just CdG him in his sleep.

[johnbragg]

]If he's threatening the other PCs as well[/B], the obvious thing to do is gang up on him and take him by surprise. After a long fight when he is short of HP is the obvious time. Or you could just CdG him in his sleep.

Or plan it out in-character. If Conan has been threatening Friar Tuck and Merlin and Sinbad the Thief and Sir Galahad separately, they'll start to discuss what to do if Conan does follow through one day and kill a party member. With some forethought, the-party-minus-2 should be able to take Conan down hard without too much trouble.

And, as stated above, your contribution to the plan should be having a Calm Emotions spell ready.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Not to de-rail, but does anyone else think that it's silly that Clerics don't have Sense Motive?

[eggynack]

Not to de-rail, but does anyone else think that it's silly that Clerics don't have Sense Motive?
Not in particular. I tend to see clerics as a bit more on the trusting side of things. After all, their magic does have at least some connection to faith, even if they are putting that faith in beings that can have their existence demonstratively proven.

[Jarmen4u]

Sorry guys, I've been at work so I wasn't able to reply.

I'm actually planning with the Sorcerer to be ready to defend against him, in case the proverbial dung hits the fan. Although, since I'm the one with the silver tongue and the quick wit, I seem to accumulate the most "strikes" (3 strikes you're out seems to be his mantra), which is why I'm working on defending myself as a main priority.

I haven't taken a thorough look at the Cleric spell list (first time playing cleric), and I didn't even see that Calm Emotions spell. Seems really useful!! Thanks for pointing it out!

As for preemptive striking, I really don't want to attack the guy outright, because then he can look like a victim, and besides, he's really good at killing things, so I would like to keep the campaign going as long as it can go. I would just like to prepare myself and my party (but mostly myself, is my LE showing?:smalltongue:)

[JDL]

As a cleric with the Trickery domain you have Invisibility on your list. Make sure you stick this spell in your domain slot for 2nd level. A barbarian that can't see you can't kill you.

After that, if you want to kill him your best bet is probably Hold Person. His will save is probably pretty low depending on his wisdom modifier. If he rages just wait him out and let the rage expire while you sneak around invisibly. If you manage to land Hold Person on him you can coup-de-grace him with whatever junk weapon you have and his precious barbarian will be toast.

Though honestly I'd just ignore his ass and focus on gaining as many levels as possible. At level 3 a high strength barbarian rules the game because spellcasters are still restricted in their spells per day and spell selection. As you get towards mid to high levels, his value will decline dramatically as you reshape reality with your divine spells. He's got a one trick pony; you've got the swiss army knife.

[atemu1234]

I'll bite the nuclear option: go full on Clericzilla. Maybe look into those handy-dandy summoning spells.

[Solaris]

I'll bite the nuclear option: go full on Clericzilla. Maybe look into those handy-dandy summoning spells.

Agreed. Show him how the real minmaxers get it done.

[Lerondiel]

You have a player problem not a game problem.
Someone calling themselves a "system mastery expert" is carrying a lot of ego and is only going to be interested in commanding awe and respect from other players to meet their own real life issues, not contributing to an enjoyable game.
I've played with too many of those personalities, and assuming you're not content to put up with it, there's only 2 ways to respond:

1) Tackle it out of game. Have all of you that are tired of the attitude tell him to get rid of it. With any luck he'll have a tantrum, call everyone stupid and leave.

2) Tackle it in game. Yes, ask a lot of questions in the playground to optimise your character - a barbarian doesnt stand a chance against a smart cleric's dozen choices - but there's a far simpler way while you're learning the Spell Compendium.

Get very clear from him what talk is in game and what isnt.

If his character is chaotic good he can't attack yours (without bizarre circumstances). If he gets angry and rolls dice for an attack remind him he can't with a CG character and ask the DM to continue. Good characters dont hack up people for annoying them. They simply cannot, and you can ignore the attempt as if you were ignoring an attempt to grapple the moon.

If his character is chaotic neutral and displays any threatening aggression toward any member of the party, a normal party will part ways with that character. You wouldnt remain in the company of someone talking about how easy it might be to punch your head in - and neither should your wise character.

If your party confronts his CN character demanding he leave, remember to learn all about Close Wounds from Spell Compendium first. :)

[DarkOne-Rob]

You have a player problem not a game problem.
Agree strongly. There is nothing wrong with making your PC strong, but if you are concerned about your fellow player having his PC attack yours, then I would argue the problem is with the player, not the PC...


If his character is chaotic good he can't attack yours (without bizarre circumstances). If he gets angry and rolls dice for an attack remind him he can't with a CG character and ask the DM to continue. Good characters dont hack up people for annoying them. They simply cannot, and you can ignore the attempt as if you were ignoring an attempt to grapple the moon.

If his character is chaotic neutral and displays any threatening aggression toward any member of the party, a normal party will part ways with that character. You wouldnt remain in the company of someone talking about how easy it might be to punch your head in - and neither should your wise character.
Disagree strongly. The player has control over his PC, not the DM (except in circumstances of Domination or other magic). If that results in a change of alignment for the PC, that is another subject.

Alignment arguments happen in other threads, but alignment is not a set of handcuffs, it is a descriptor of some general tendencies and motivations.

[Lerondiel]

Disagree strongly. The player has control over his PC, not the DM (except in circumstances of Domination or other magic). If that results in a change of alignment for the PC, that is another subject.

Alignment arguments happen in other threads, but alignment is not a set of handcuffs, it is a descriptor of some general tendencies and motivations.


Agree completely that there isnt a published rule for it but in 30 years of playing under dozens of DMs I've never seen one that would put up with a character labelled as 'good' murdering an ally out of annoyance. A DM that allows that isnt interested in the enjoyment of his players or even running the game, he's just there to roll for the monsters.

[Twurps]

You have a player problem not a game problem.


This.
Player problems are not solved ingame. Talk to the guy OOC. Talk to your DM. Come to an understanding of which game it is you want to play, and how it is most enjoyable for all of you. If there's no consensus on that bit, the group you're in won't last long in it's current form.

As a sidenote: Is pvp even allowed in your game? In our games, it's usually NOT allowed. When it's explicitely allowed, then killing kim in his sleep shouldn't be an issue.

Also: Once he goes frenzied berserker, Then you have an 'In game' problem. How much of his optimization skills have gone into making will saves? Because if the answer isn't 'A lot', then at some point, he will have to turn on his party, whether he wants to or not.

[WeaselGuy]

There has been little PvP in campaigns I have been involved in over the past decade. However, the few times I can remember it happening went a little something like this...


P1: Man, screw you, surprise round, I rage and attack this *****!

DM: Uh, what's your alignment?

P1: CG, but I don't care, I'm tired of him always (doing whatever that offends him)!

DM: Well, you know that as a CG character, you can't just rage and attack everyone that annoys you, right?

P1: I don't care, I'll do it anyway!

DM: Well, your alignment is gonna shift, at least to CN, if not CE. P2, what's your alignment?

P2: Doesn't really matter, it's not like P2 has Detect Alignment. I've been RPing my character as LN, ish though.

P1: Rawr, 25 to hit, 22 damage sucker!

P2: *yawn* Is it my turn yet? Quickened Calm Emotions, Hold Person. Make a Will save.

P1: Hey, that's not fair, I didn't know you can cast 2 spells in the same round. Wait, I rolled a 4, does a 7 pass the Will save?

P3: Doubt it. Coup de Grace with this Scythe I keep lying around for just this occasion. DC 54 Fort save. When we get back to town, can we look for a Bard instead of a Barbarian? They're more useful.

[Jarmen4u]

Sorry about the late reply guys, I've been busy. Anyway, to answer a lot of points: the game is 90% core, with an exception here and there. For example, like I mentioned, we all picked a magic item to start with (within reason), and he picked the belt of battle. He is chaotic neutral, but it's evident he's playing a murderhobo 2.0.

Our first skype call as a group involved him trying to roll a monk, and use his magic item allowance to do some weird **** to add weapon enhancements to his unarmed attacks, including one that basically caused his attacks to ignore all non-living material. When we (as players, the DM was afk) protested that it was dumb and overpowered, and he started yelling that he didn't care what we thought because he doesn't have to listen to us, only the DM can say no. If you're familiar with YouTube personality Francis, that's pretty much what this guy sounds like. Our DM is still fairly new though, so I refused to let him take advantage of him.

Anyway, back to the actual question: so as much as I appreciate the splat help, I won't be able to pull from books outside of phb for 95% of the time, so no spell compendium. My current question is now this: once I cast sanctuary/invisibility, I'm set. However, I don't ever want to start the fight, so he will almost certainly get the drop on me. Adding his extra turn from belt of battle, and the extra attack from his variant rage, that's 4 chances he has to land a hit on me, and since I only have 18 hp and something like 16-18 AC, he's bound to do serious damage.

Is there some way that's at least semi core, which will protect me from random attacks from him? Outside of sanctuary, or other similar spells (which I can't cast if I'm surprised). Just for the one turn, so I can defend myself properly afterwards.

[johnbragg]

Is there some way that's at least semi core, which will protect me from random attacks from him? Outside of sanctuary, or other similar spells (which I can't cast if I'm surprised). Just for the one turn, so I can defend myself properly afterwards.

AT your level (around 5-6, if I remember right), I don't think there's a realistic combo of spells or items that will prevent a tweaked-out raging barbarian on a surprise round with 4 attacks from dropping a PC with 18 hp.

But, since (I think) he's been talking smack in character, the rest of the party has a common interest in planning for what to do if he drops one player. So openly make plans for how the rest-of-the-party will bring him down if he snaps. If there are 5 PCs, then you need 3 plans. After the battle, pop a Cure Wounds spell onto the PC the barbarian dropped, if possible.

EDIT: Unless your DM lets you create or commission a Wondrous ITem with a continuous Sanctuary effect, which would be 2,000 gp (CL 1 * SL 1 * 2000 gp) by the DMG list prices. That doesn't help anyone else in the party, who the Barbarian could probably also kill in one surprise round.

[Telonius]

How about ... put a Glyph of Warding on a thin tunic. Glyph's specifications are the general physical description of the Barbarian. Turn it inside out. Put it on.

If the Barbarian attacks you, he'll be "opening" the object by slicing through it. This will trigger Blindness/Deafness if you're mean, Calm Emotions if you're merciful.

[Jarmen4u]

How about ... put a Glyph of Warding on a thin tunic. Glyph's specifications are the general physical description of the Barbarian. Turn it inside out. Put it on.

If the Barbarian attacks you, he'll be "opening" the object by slicing through it. This will trigger Blindness/Deafness if you're mean, Calm Emotions if you're merciful.

Currently though, I'm pretty sure he's either fighting unarmed or with gauntlets, as we haven't had a chance to get weapons yet. I don't think either of those would rip a tunic though..

[Telonius]

Then be sure to give him a sword. :smallbiggrin:

[Jarmen4u]

Also, on that note of Glyph of Warding, would it be possible to, either instead of or in tandem with the glyph, just have a Sanctuary spell readied for when he tries to attack? It is a touch spell, and only takes 1 standard action to cast. That would give me the upper hand if he tries to get a Surprise round on me by attacking abruptly.

[Telonius]

That wouldn't be possible. In order to ready an action, you have to be in combat already. "Readying an action" is a standard action you take on your turn in the initiative order. If it worked the way you're describing, the Contingency spell wouldn't do anything except waste a sixth-level slot.

[Troacctid]

What you need are immediate actions. Greater Mirror Image could really do a number on him, for example. Or that magic cloak from Drow of the Underdark that lets you teleport away in response to an attack. Contingency, or Craft Contingent Spell if you're willing to do some crafting, would also work well.

[Jarmen4u]

All of these ideas are great, and I appreciate it, but at the moment we are going into 3rd level, and he will probably attack either this or next session, depending on his mood. Unless I can talk the DM into letting me find an NPC to help me craft an item like that... I dunno. I'd have to ask, but it's a long shot.

[Telonius]

EDIT: ninja'd.

[nedz]

You don't have many resources at level 3. It does strike me as a bit stupid that you have to reserve a couple of spells just to deal with this idiot: this is a serious drain on the parties strength. Be pro-active and just dump him.

[johnbragg]

All of these ideas are great, and I appreciate it, but at the moment we are going into 3rd level, and he will probably attack either this or next session, depending on his mood. Unless I can talk the DM into letting me find an NPC to help me craft an item like that... I dunno. I'd have to ask, but it's a long shot.

At that level, you don't have the raw power that he does. So you have to use the resources you do have cleverly. Which means the other party members. During the game, have your PC distract the barbarian while the sorcerer talks to the rest of the party about contingency plans. (Or vice versa.) Talk about what the party's plan is if he flips out and attacks the cleric, if he flips out and attacks the sorcerer, if he flips out and attacks whoever else you have. Make it clear to the System Mastery Expert that player-vs-player is not going to happen. If the barbarian goes ahead and pulls the trigger, it's player vs party.

Given how tweaked-out this barbarian is at 3rd level(?!?), it might be a total party kill. If that happens, it's too bad, but the System Master Expert can go play with himself while the rest of you start a new campaign that he's not invited to.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah.. i would agree that this is a messed up situation.. But since i can imagine that you as the party healer are a lot more valuable than the barbarian, then i suggest that you get a quiet talk with the rest of the party, and then let them know its either him or you that will leave the party, seeing as he had been making threats on your life.

Then one evening while he is a sleep you should simply pack up and leave him.

It does actually not sound like he is very optimized as such, the comment you made make it sound like he is the whirling frenzy barbarian, and that in itself is not a big thing. You should however argue OOC against him being allowed a frenzied barbarian on the simple ground, that its a class that gives the player a lot more killing power at the expense of his own party.

But how are things. Do you have support from the rest of the party in this matter?

[Jarmen4u]

I have support from the sorcerer and monk, but I really don't want to have to rely on them if I don't have to, especially since I'm really invested in this (albeit new)character. I guess that's the power of writing a fulfilling backstory. At the very least I'll have to try to find an NPC to help me with a contingency sanctuary. Our monk is a grappler but my worry is that the others might be distracted/in combat with others when he attacks.

[georgie_leech]

Talk to the DM about PvP not being something the rest of you are interested in? Then if he attacks, you can just say "no he doesn't" and ignore any and all damage he does, and generally act as if it never happened.

[Renen]

Our first skype call as a group involved him trying to roll a monk, we (as players, the DM was afk) protested that it was dumb and overpowered

Ehhhh... Maybe you guys need to do at least abit of self-evaluating? If I was rolling a monk and wanted to hit things well, and then told im too OP, I too would be slightly upset.

Just being the devil's advocate.

[Jarmen4u]

I would consider that, only that the DM doesn't have a very strong personality, and the barbarian is Francis-tier obnoxious, so I doubt he'll say no. Besides, I'm not opposed to pvp, just people throwing fits and murdering the whole party because of their fragile ego.

[Jarmen4u]

Ehhhh... Maybe you guys need to do at least abit of self-evaluating? If I was rolling a monk and wanted to hit things well, and then told im too OP, I too would be slightly upset.

Just being the devil's advocate.

Well if you wanted to roll a Monk and somehow achieve hundreds of thousands of gold worth of weapon enchantments directly on to your arms, at 1st level, you're dang right I'm calling that dumb.

[Renen]

I very much doubt he achieved something like that at level 1. Now, if he did that by breaking the rules, you would call it cheating. But I really doubt that he did anything of the sort while staying within the rules.
So you are either wrong about just how strong he was, or he cheated.

[Threadnaught]

Did the other player start threatening your characters before or after you nerfed it?

If before, then any help given would be useful. I'll check the Cleric list for some suggestions.

If after, then it may be in response to perceived sabotage of his character. Which may be due to a lack of system mastery on your part.


Edit: Wow, his character would've been one expensive Magic Item. I thought his fists would be a +4 Weapon.

[johnbragg]

I very much doubt he achieved something like that at level 1. Now, if he did that by breaking the rules, you would call it cheating. But I really doubt that he did anything of the sort while staying within the rules.
So you are either wrong about just how strong he was, or he cheated.

It might be this other thing. OP says the barbarian gets 4 attacks. One attack to start, one extra from the belt of battle, one from whirling frenzy barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm). I don't see where the fourth attack comes from, unless the barbarian is dual wielding?

[Threadnaught]

I don't see where the fourth attack comes from, unless the barbarian is dual wielding?

Oh god, he thinks Unarmed Strike is Dual Wielded.

[johnbragg]

Adding his extra turn from belt of battle, and the extra attack from his variant rage, that's 4 chances he has to land a hit on me,

That's only 3. Has he been attacking 4x a round in combat?

And a belt of battle (https://mission-from-sigil.obsidianportal.com/items/belt-of-battle) is a 12,000 gp item as far as I can tell. Do you or the other players have that sort of sweet gear?

[Troacctid]

Adding the Brilliant Energy property to your unarmed strikes normally costs 50,000+ gp, and at the levels where you're expected to have that kind of wealth, it's perfectly reasonable. (Remember, it only applies to his attacks, so it's not like he can walk through walls and stuff...I mean, unless he takes the alternate class feature that lets him walk through walls, but that's something else entirely.) However, it's way out of line for a level 3 character, especially when the rest of the party has only basic gear.

[PseudoPanda]

That's only 3. Has he been attacking 4x a round in combat?

And a belt of battle (https://mission-from-sigil.obsidianportal.com/items/belt-of-battle) is a 12,000 gp item as far as I can tell. Do you or the other players have that sort of sweet gear?

He probably interpreted whirling frenzy to function like haste (extra attack on a full attack) instead of granting one more attack per turn (as it says) and used the belt to get another full attack. The OP said they started with one magic item of their choice and for some reason the DM OK'd the belt

[Threadnaught]

Okay, so he gains +2 to AC and Reflex Saves, Constitution is a decent stat to have pumped for long combats, as it'll allow him to Rage longer. I'm guessing he'll be able to Rage for at least 5 rounds, but I'll assume maximum Constitution anyway.

My calculations for his Saves when in a Frenzy are. Fortitude: +9 (and 7 rounds of Rage), Reflex: +6 (AC: 18, Touch: 14, Flatfooted: 14) and Will: +2 (possibly +1).

If his character is specialized for combat, then it's possible he may have neglected his Will save. Hit him there with Hold Person the next time you get into an argument. If he tries something funny in combat, hit him with it and run with whichever members of the party are still standing, he'll be helpless and alone, while you'll be on your way to safety. Too bad for the player whose character is killed, but at least you can get experience from defeating his character and surviving the encounter.

I won't suggest Calm Emotions as it's even more temporary than Hold Person in combat. He'd need a roll of 14 or higher if my estimation is correct and you have 18 Wisdom, that's a 35% chance he'll shrug off Hold Person and keep on attacking. If he has 8-9 Wisdom, then that decreases his odds by 5% down to 30%, it appears that if he attacks and you don't immediately die, he's screwed. Things may be harder for the other characters should you be targeted first.
Just make sure you prepare Hold Person once per day from now on.

[Jarmen4u]

Hi, sorry all, just got off work.

I just asked one of the other party members, who basically gave me a run down of his general build.

Basically, he tricked the DM into letting him create a triple variant mess.

First off, he has Lion Totem variant. Not from core, but from Complete Champion. Aka, free pounce at level 1. (Full attack after charge. 2 attacks)

Next, he has Whirling Frenzy. That's already pretty much been explained. (1 bonus attack= 3 attacks)

Third, he has City Brawler variant, straight from Dragon Magazine #349, which gives him free Two Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed.

AND He has Belt of Battle, which he can use to replay an entire full round action, aka 3 more attacks. = 6 attacks in a round.

[Jarmen4u]

He probably interpreted whirling frenzy to function like haste (extra attack on a full attack) instead of granting one more attack per turn (as it says) and used the belt to get another full attack. The OP said they started with one magic item of their choice and for some reason the DM OK'd the belt

The DM said we could start with one free magic item, within reason. I am taking Monk's Belt, as per this thread's advice, our mutual friend has Belt of Battle, and I forget what the others have.


Adding the Brilliant Energy property to your unarmed strikes normally costs 50,000+ gp, and at the levels where you're expected to have that kind of wealth, it's perfectly reasonable. (Remember, it only applies to his attacks, so it's not like he can walk through walls and stuff...I mean, unless he takes the alternate class feature that lets him walk through walls, but that's something else entirely.) However, it's way out of line for a level 3 character, especially when the rest of the party has only basic gear.

Technically, this was all at the character building stage, AKA 1st level. We hadn't even started playing yet and he was asking for all of that.

[Renen]

1) I bet he just asked the DM for that and DM let him. Not sure how much tricking can be done there. Partially because:
2) His build IS valid. I am unsure of the feat, but pounce+whirling frenzy sounds legit on my end. So does the belt, allowing for a bonus round (btw, its only once per day).
Just because he is good at punching things, doesnt mean he is broken. Wizards will soon be flying circles around him.

[Jarmen4u]

1) I bet he just asked the DM for that and DM let him. Not sure how much tricking can be done there. Partially because:
2) His build IS valid. I am unsure of the feat, but pounce+whirling frenzy sounds legit on my end. So does the belt, allowing for a bonus round (btw, its only once per day).
Just because he is good at punching things, doesnt mean he is broken. Wizards will soon be flying circles around him.

1) Because the DM said core only with minor exceptions if you have a good reason, and he tricked the DM by only vaguely describing what he's doing and the DM blindly green-lighting it.
Before you blame the DM for it, this is only his second campaign, and he is very new, and we all know this. The player was clearly taking advantage of his ignorance of the full scope of core by suggesting he be allowed all 3 of those things.

2) Not sure how much of the thread you read, but he is threatening to kill our characters every time we make a wisecrack at his expense or basically do anything he doesn't like. He, at one point in the campaign, essentially bull rushed a player (our sorcerer) out of combat and threw him into a wall, just because he was in his way. Although he wasn't actually in his way, the barbarian altered his path to collide with him intentionally.

EDIT: I hope I didn't come off sounding rude with that #2, but I just know that some people only read the most recent posts, especially when threads start to get long.

[georgie_leech]

If he's a problem, don't play with him. Simple as that. Is there a pressing reason that you and the party must play with this character?

[Jarmen4u]

If he's a problem, don't play with him. Simple as that. Is there a pressing reason that you and the party must play with this character?

There really isn't a set reason, but this is kind of a pick-up game on roll20 that took ages to get started as we needed a certain amount of players, and I don't think he'd take well to us trying to kick him out.

Also I doubt the DM would really want to just straight up remove him from the game until he actually does something gamebreaking, like cause a TPK or throw an OOC tantrum.

[johnbragg]

Hi, sorry all, just got off work.

I just asked one of the other party members, who basically gave me a run down of his general build.

Basically, he tricked the DM into letting him create a triple variant mess.

First off, he has Lion Totem variant. Not from core, but from Complete Champion. Aka, free pounce at level 1. (Full attack after charge. 2 attacks)

Next, he has Whirling Frenzy. That's already pretty much been explained. (1 bonus attack= 3 attacks)

Third, he has City Brawler variant, straight from Dragon Magazine #349, which gives him free Two Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed.

AND He has Belt of Battle, which he can use to replay an entire full round action, aka 3 more attacks. = 6 attacks in a round.

Well, there's some good news for you in that stack of splatbook-diving. He's not using an actual weapon, he's using an unarmed strike. So he's doing nonlethal damage. No matter how much nonlethal damage he does in his surprise round, it can't kill you.

(If he wants to deal lethal damage, he takes a -4 penalty to his attack rolls, on top of the -2 for Two Weapon Fighting and the -2 for Whirling Frenzy. If he has a base Strength of 20, and a Strength of 24 while raging, he's rolling those attacks at a mighty +2 to hit (+3 BAB, +7 Str, -2 TWF penalty, -2 Whirling Frenzy penalty, -4 for using nonlethal weapons to do lethal damage.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage

I would only mention that after he attacks you and rolls the damage. But that's me.

On the other hand, when your Monk friend makes his unarmed strikes on the Barbarian, that does regular, lethal damage. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm Unarmed Strike, Paragraph 2.

NOTE: If he's using gauntlets, then it is lethal damage. Checking on whether gauntlets count as more-than-light armor, and if that has any effect on his build....

[Jarmen4u]

Well, there's some good news for you in that stack of splatbook-diving. He's not using an actual weapon, he's using an unarmed strike. So he's doing nonlethal damage. No matter how much nonlethal damage he does in his surprise round, it can't kill you.

(If he wants to deal lethal damage, he takes a -4 penalty to his attack rolls, on top of the -2 for Two Weapon Fighting and the -2 for Whirling Frenzy. If he has a base Strength of 20, and a Strength of 24 while raging, he's rolling those attacks at a mighty +2 to hit (+3 BAB, +7 Str, -2 TWF penalty, -2 Whirling Frenzy penalty, -4 for using nonlethal weapons to do lethal damage.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage

I would only mention that after he attacks you and rolls the damage. But that's me.

On the other hand, when your Monk friend makes his unarmed strikes on the Barbarian, that does regular, lethal damage. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm Unarmed Strike, Paragraph 2.

NOTE: If he's using gauntlets, then it is lethal damage. Checking on whether gauntlets count as more-than-light armor, and if that has any effect on his build....

Sorry for not mentioning this, but he has Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his feats, so... lethal damage.

But I appreciate the theorycrafting, I'm not even sure if he's applying all the penalties, but that's a different story.

[georgie_leech]

There really isn't a set reason, but this is kind of a pick-up game on roll20 that took ages to get started as we needed a certain amount of players, and I don't think he'd take well to us trying to kick him out.

Also I doubt the DM would really want to just straight up remove him from the game until he actually does something gamebreaking, like cause a TPK or throw an OOC tantrum.

No Gaming > Bad Gaming. If he's not fun to play with, you have no responsibility to put yourself through it. Also, point out to your DM that his rules aren't being followed. Why on earth would he follow other rules if he can't be trusted to even abide by character creation restrictions?

Edit:
Sorry for not mentioning this, but he has Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his feats, so... lethal damage.

But I appreciate the theorycrafting, I'm not even sure if he's applying all the penalties, but that's a different story.

You did mention it, sort of. It comes from the City Brawler.

[atemu1234]

Hi, sorry all, just got off work.

I just asked one of the other party members, who basically gave me a run down of his general build.

Basically, he tricked the DM into letting him create a triple variant mess.

First off, he has Lion Totem variant. Not from core, but from Complete Champion. Aka, free pounce at level 1. (Full attack after charge. 2 attacks)

Next, he has Whirling Frenzy. That's already pretty much been explained. (1 bonus attack= 3 attacks)

Third, he has City Brawler variant, straight from Dragon Magazine #349, which gives him free Two Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed.

AND He has Belt of Battle, which he can use to replay an entire full round action, aka 3 more attacks. = 6 attacks in a round.

Then follow my advice- go nuclear, summon four high-initiative "bodyguards" every day, and proceed to kill face.

[Jarmen4u]

No Gaming > Bad Gaming. If he's not fun to play with, you have no responsibility to put yourself through it. Also, point out to your DM that his rules aren't being followed. Why on earth would he follow other rules if he can't be trusted to even abide by character creation restrictions?

Edit:

You did mention it, sort of. It comes from the City Brawler.

I guess part of the problem is with myself, in that I've been trying for over a year to start my own 3.5 game, first with friends and local people, then with strangers, then on roll20, to no avail. I really just want to have a campaign to play in that lasts more than 3 sessions. :smallfrown:


Then follow my advice- go nuclear, summon four high-initiative "bodyguards" every day, and proceed to kill face.

Even though I'm LE, I really don't want anyone else to know that, so I've taken a purely defensive position on the situation. I will only try to kill him if he attacks me first.

[JDL]

As the great hustler Canada Bill Jones once said when his friend tried to tell him he was being cheated in a poker game, "I know it's rigged, but it's the only game in town."

At the end of the day it doesn't matter who has the best character or the most loot, the highest kill count or the biggest ego-peen. If you're having fun and they can't stop you from enjoying it, you win.

[Threadnaught]

Basically, he tricked the DM into letting him create a triple variant mess.

First off, he has Lion Totem variant. Not from core, but from Complete Champion. Aka, free pounce at level 1. (Full attack after charge. 2 attacks)

Next, he has Whirling Frenzy. That's already pretty much been explained. (1 bonus attack= 3 attacks)

Third, he has City Brawler variant, straight from Dragon Magazine #349, which gives him free Two Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed.

Actually that's a legal build. Not legal in a core only game, but otherwise legal.


AND He has Belt of Battle, which he can use to replay an entire full round action, aka 3 more attacks. = 6 attacks in a round.

Yeah, but the good news is, that's only once per day.
Don't forget that he can full attack at the end of a charge using Pounce.

Perhaps maybe you're going about this the wrong way, clearly he recognizes that the core melee Classes suck without splat support and has managed to sneak in some support so his character doesn't spend the entire time sucking once the party reaches level 7-10 and above. No seriously, the core Classes are either front loaded to the extreme, absolutely suck, or are Tier 1-2.
Maybe instead of waiting for him to threaten your characters, or accusing him of being a cheater, you should ask him to help you to develop the other melee character into something fun. And ask him if he'd be willing to tone down the in character hostility.

If he reacts positively, which would be to help you out and possibly cut back on the amount of times his character actually threatens your characters, then it's probably your fault the situation became what it is.
If he reacts negatively, which could be to throw a tantrum or simply to tell you to.. Go somewhere else. Then he's the problem and as a group, your only option is to tell him to... Go somewhere else.. I know you know exactly what I mean.


Even though I'm LE, I really don't want anyone else to know that, so I've taken a purely defensive position on the situation. I will only try to kill him if he attacks me first.

So do you prepare all your Cure Spells, or are you cheating to hide your alignment?

[Telonius]

All right, so you have a third-level character toting around a Belt of Battle. The local Thieves' Guild might be interested in an anonymous note.

Come to think of it, this may be a time to remind him of Qui-Gon's Bigger Fish Principle in general. A character with a personality as abrasive as that one, would tend to make a lot of enemies. You're the face? Arrange it so that you defer to him at some point in a delicate negotiation. ("Hey, I just wanted to share the spotlight with you.")

[Jarmen4u]

Actually that's a legal build. Not legal in a core only game, but otherwise legal.



Yeah, but the good news is, that's only once per day.
Don't forget that he can full attack at the end of a charge using Pounce.

Perhaps maybe you're going about this the wrong way, clearly he recognizes that the core melee Classes suck without splat support and has managed to sneak in some support so his character doesn't spend the entire time sucking once the party reaches level 7-10 and above. No seriously, the core Classes are either front loaded to the extreme, absolutely suck, or are Tier 1-2.
Maybe instead of waiting for him to threaten your characters, or accusing him of being a cheater, you should ask him to help you to develop the other melee character into something fun. And ask him if he'd be willing to tone down the in character hostility.

If he reacts positively, which would be to help you out and possibly cut back on the amount of times his character actually threatens your characters, then it's probably your fault the situation became what it is.
If he reacts negatively, which could be to throw a tantrum or simply to tell you to.. Go somewhere else. Then he's the problem and as a group, your only option is to tell him to... Go somewhere else.. I know you know exactly what I mean.



So do you prepare all your Cure Spells, or are you cheating to hide your alignment?

I prepare one Cure spell, but nobody has actually taken any damage since the Barbarian literally one-shots every enemy we encounter. I've also made it clear that I will be primarily geared towards battlefield control/illusions, as I am Cloistered with Water/Trickery domains.

I'll try to work things out OOC, but considering the last time I tried to talk him down from something, he just played the "you're not the DM so I don't give a crap what you think" card, so my hopes are not high.

And even though we've discussed his build a lot in this thread, I'm really only slightly annoyed that he tricked the DM into allowing him to have variants that were otherwise offlimits. Most of the frustration comes from him being a constant threat, to our characters, but also to the plot as being a general murderhobo. In the first session, I managed to roll successful Diplomacy against some Demon- type creature and I began questioning him for information about his boss, which he started sharing, and I almost managed to talk him into teaming up with us to take her out when our Barbarian just pounced and blew him up. I already talked to him about murderhobo-ing everything he sees, but he doesn't seem to care.

Thanks for the input though, I'll give that a try.

[Renen]

Just kill him. If you arent willing to kill him for being such an annoyance, then he isnt that much of an annoyance.

[NecessaryWeevil]

I think you're saying that you're afraid a preemptive strike will reveal you as lawful evil? I'm not sure I see that. If someone had made repeated, credible threats against my life and that of my party members, I think I could justify a preemptive strike by pretty much any alignment.

Why are you afraid of your alignment being revealed?

Or are you saying it would be against your alignment and therefore you want to avoid it? I guess it could be, but it doesn't have to be.

[Solaris]

Wait until the DM gets his crap together, puts you guys up against something that puts the barbarian down to single-digit hit points, and use a spontaneously-cast inflict spell when the barbarian asks for heals. That you can do that is one of the benefits of being evil.
The really Lawful Evil thing to do would be to help arrange these circumstances by assisting the DM with encounter design to accelerate the crap getting together.

There's reasons beatsticks tend to make friends with their healbots. Back in the military, we had a prime rule: Never get on the medic's bad side. Not even then. Make this twerp learn why.

[Threadnaught]

I'll try to work things out OOC, but considering the last time I tried to talk him down from something, he just played the "you're not the DM so I don't give a crap what you think" card, so my hopes are not high.

Well if you open up the dialogue with a request for help, he may be more willing to listen.

Additionally, the DM may require some education on how to DM. Just some tips mainly.


And even though we've discussed his build a lot in this thread, I'm really only slightly annoyed that he tricked the DM into allowing him to have variants that were otherwise offlimits.

I have a feeling that the group would feel much better if he tricked the DM into helping out all melee characters. And gave Casters a small boon.


Most of the frustration comes from him being a constant threat, to our characters, but also to the plot as being a general murderhobo. In the first session, I managed to roll successful Diplomacy against some Demon- type creature and I began questioning him for information about his boss, which he started sharing, and I almost managed to talk him into teaming up with us to take her out when our Barbarian just pounced and blew him up. I already talked to him about murderhobo-ing everything he sees, but he doesn't seem to care.

Okay, the problem here seems to be the spotlight and each PC's role, it sounds like you're the party face. It's either you or the Sorcerer, and you have more Skill Points. Each player should know what their character is capable of contributing meaningfully to and should be able to contribute to a number of situations.
Now you may have your own specific roles, but obviously when only one player is able to contribute, it leaves the others feeling left out and pointless, this is a problem the DM can help players solve by creating more, creative challenges.
Additionally, combat looks too easy based on every single post you've made. The DM could be encouraged to increase the CR of each encounter, pad them with extra bodies and change the terrain in the enemies' favour as often as they wish in order to make combat last a little longer and allow players other than the Barbarian to do something cool.

If you start to work with him and the DM, you may end up with a more entertaining game. It'll seem like work at times, but sometimes you have to earn your fun.

[Jarmen4u]

Alright guys, it's session time. I'll give all of this stuff a try! Will update after.

[johnbragg]

Alright guys, it's session time. I'll give all of this stuff a try! Will update after.

What happened? We must know!

[Jarmen4u]

What happened? We must know!

All in all, better than expected, even though one of our players was joining us through roll20 from the ER. Our DM split the party into solos, and it quickly became a kind of Saw knock off which was not as bad as it sounds. The highlight was the barbarian about to try jumping a 35 foot gap but ended up trying to balance across a 2x4 that went across it, and fell about 4 times, catching himself and climbing up 3 times. Another character found a creepy portrait of himself and carried it with him until he found a kid tied up to essentially an electric chair. The female voice that has been haunting us told him that if he wanted to save the kid, he'd have to give up part of himself, with a creepy laugh. But he offered the portrait, which filled the requirement rather easily, so the voice got upset and killed the child anyway.

As for the party situation, it seems to be going better, as the barbarian is now playing her like a tsundere towards our sorcerer, justifying his bullying with a crush. It didn't hurt that we were separated the whole time though. I'll have to see if the next session goes any worse, or keeps the same, albeit awkward friendliness between characters.

[sideswipe]

play a level 1 kobold paladin. with some knowledge the planes.

[Jarmen4u]

play a level 1 kobold paladin. with some knowledge the planes.

Sorry, if that's an inside joke/reference to something, I don't know what it is. I'm still pretty new to D&D as a whole.

[georgie_leech]

Sorry, if that's an inside joke/reference to something, I don't know what it is. I'm still pretty new to D&D as a whole.

He's referencing Pun Pun, the level 1 TO character that achieves every infinity possible, every NI possible, and depending on cheese tolerance, can make up any ability you want.

It's sort of like hearing a child complain about how a bigger kid is making fun of him and someone going "have you considered using nuclear weaponry?"

[Jarmen4u]

He's referencing Pun Pun, the level 1 TO character that achieves every infinity possible, every NI possible, and depending on cheese tolerance, can make up any ability you want.

It's sort of like hearing a child complain about how a bigger kid is making fun of him and someone going "have you considered using nuclear weaponry?"

I thought it had something to do with Pun-Pun, but I didn't realize that had a paladin level in it. All I know is any time someone mentions kobolds, it's probably cheese.

[Troacctid]

Pun-Pun gets his wishes granted by summoning an evil extraplanar genie dude who grants free wishes to Paladins, no strings attached, in hopes of tempting them to evil. The trick doesn't actually require being a kobold or a Paladin or level 1; that's just part of the joke build. (The TO involved is essentially just a thesis on how to use wish to gain infinite power.)

[Threadnaught]

Damn, that wasn't nice of your DM. Aside from the behaviour ingame, did the player graciously accept the olive branch you offered him?
You did try getting him to help other players with their characters, didn't you?

[Jarmen4u]

Damn, that wasn't nice of your DM. Aside from the behaviour ingame, did the player graciously accept the olive branch you offered him?
You did try getting him to help other players with their characters, didn't you?

I'm not sure which part you're referring to. I'm guessing the bit with the electric chair? I mean I guess not, but it added to the eeriness of our environment.

And no, I never tried to, because even though he claims "system mastery," I found that it was our beguiler who linked him all of the variants that he's using, as opposed to him finding them himself. And as for the other guys, they seem to be doing a good job with their characters on their own. Our monk (new guy) has a really good grapple build, and our sorcerer is the kind of guy who will make his character weak for the sake of roleplaying (in this instance, his character is a street magician on the side, so all of his 0/1st level spells are showy and not really useful at all.) I offered to help him, but he insisted on picking spells that his character would want to know. And as for the beguiler, since he prefers to only use roll20 text instead of talking in our group calls, his character is honestly a bit of a mystery to me.

[Threadnaught]

Heh, so he's bragging about system mastery, of another player?

Yeah, I think the best thing about that session may have been the DM keeping him distracted.

[Jarmen4u]

Heh, so he's bragging about system mastery, of another player?

Yeah, I think the best thing about that session may have been the DM keeping him distracted.

No, he's claiming that he has system mastery; I only found out later that the other player helped him build his variants, because I asked him about the details, and he told me to ask the other guy who helped him.

But yeah, I'm glad we were separated. We were doing it in turn order, so it was pseudo-combat rules, but the DM was being a bit lenient on actual movement distance and such. The barbarian actually ended up using his Belt of Battle to go extra distance, and at the end of it he entered a room with two enemies, and he was throwing a fit because the DM wouldn't let him pounce on one of them and do a full attack action. :smallsigh:

Luckily though, that means that he won't have the BoB until, at the very least, the end of this dungeon, as we had to end the session mid-run and so the day will not reset as a result.

[True believer]

cast prestidigitation to him ... bluff him that you put an ancient curse on him and that if he will ever do anything to harm you he will painfully die !!!!




Most of the times RP is far more efective that any feat,ability,spell etc

[Jarmen4u]

cast prestidigitation to him ... bluff him that you put an ancient curse on him and that if he will ever do anything to harm you he will painfully die !!!!




Most of the times RP is far more efective that any feat,ability,spell etc

I didn't think you could use things like Bluff on other players... Also there's a 110% chance he'd metagame his way out of it, and beat me to death in retaliation.

[Jarmen4u]

Final update to this thread... Barbarian bullied our sorc for his money again, so I unloaded a full CDG on him with an enchanted weapon after casting Hold Person, and he evaporated.

He is also no longer part of our campaign. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you for all the help, everyone! :D

[Lathund]

Not to de-rail, but does anyone else think that it's silly that Clerics don't have Sense Motive?

Absolutely. Being a cleric involves dealing with other people on a daily basis, which calls for such a skill anyway. Other than that, most real-life priests I know have an annoyingly good understanding about what makes people tick. They will pierce through lies more easily than the average person.

[Telonius]

Final update to this thread... Barbarian bullied our sorc for his money again, so I unloaded a full CDG on him with an enchanted weapon after casting Hold Person, and he evaporated.

He is also no longer part of our campaign. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you for all the help, everyone! :D

Well done! Amazing how some people think a mage with a melee weapon isn't a threat. :smallbiggrin:

To the point about Clerics ... I have three priests in the family. I'd have to roll pretty high on my personal Bluff check to get something past them. Putting Sense Motive as a Cleric class skill is always one of my house rules.

[Oko and Qailee]

Congrats.

Honestly, sounds like he was going for a binary build anyway. One of those builds that sound strong until it runs into something that makes it do nothing... like flight, or difficult terrain, or invisibility.... or hold person :smallbiggrin:

[Lathund]

Well done! Amazing how some people think a mage with a melee weapon isn't a threat.

'Mage' should have been his first red flag really :smalltongue: