Base Classes: Unfilled Niches?

[ArcanistSupreme]

Recently I've been struck by a homebrew mood. I'm well into a couple of projects, and I was about to start another before I discovered that the concept had already been not only covered, but done well in a manner better than what I had in mind.

So in the interest of avoiding dead horse beating and retreading old ground, what are some concepts that haven't yet been covered by existing classes (be they from Paizo, DSP, another 3rd party publisher, 3.5-> PF conversions, or the lowly Internet homebrewer)? I'm looking for inspiration in all forms, from the most over-specialized niche class to awesome fluff to mechanics that would be cool.

Examples:

Aura-based support class
Time traveler
A class that shares it's body with an extraplanar being
A mask wearer (Majora's Mask minus Link)


What have you got?

[Psyren]

A crafting-focused class (artificer or warlock style) has not really been done satisfactorily.

Your third bullet is basically the Occultist.

A Beguiler-style skillmonkey caster with no bonus damage mechanic but more powerful magic has not been done.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Beguiler, Dread Necromancer (?) style minionmancer, a class that focuses in defending against/protecting others with magic, Artificer.

[Kurald Galain]

Aura-based support class
Isn't that the Paladin?

I would like to see PF's version of 3E's Warlock; that is, a class that gains a number of reusable spell-like abilities from some kind of pact. Bonus points if the pact makes a difference in gameplay.
I realize that PF's equivalent is basically the Witch, but the problem with the Witch is that it's a full caster first, hex user second; and frankly most hexes are rather lacklustre.

Another thing I'd like to see is a gish focused on short-range teleportation, of himself and/or enemies.

[grarrrg]

Isn't that the Paladin?

I assume he means Auras that are more generally useful. The Paladin's Aura's are pretty niche, and most only function within 10ft. Effects that are more useful (think Bard-song) and have a USEFUL radius would be nice.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Beguiler


At the very least, Occult Adventures is getting the Mesmerist which focuses on enchantment and illusion magic.

[Mithril Leaf]

A crafting-focused class (artificer or warlock style) has not really been done satisfactorily.

Crafter Vizier is getting somewhat close.

[IZ42]

The Synthesist summoner does exactly what your third bullet says. There is a Third Party Class that kind of uses Time Traveler. It's called the Time Thief.

[Ravens_cry]

The really mobile attacker, who can hit and run away or move onto the next if that one drops.

[Almarck]

Recently I've been struck by a homebrew mood. I'm well into a couple of projects, and I was about to start another before I discovered that the concept had already been not only covered, but done well in a manner better than what I had in mind.

So in the interest of avoiding dead horse beating and retreading old ground, what are some concepts that haven't yet been covered by existing classes (be they from Paizo, DSP, another 3rd party publisher, 3.5-> PF conversions, or the lowly Internet homebrewer)? I'm looking for inspiration in all forms, from the most over-specialized niche class to awesome fluff to mechanics that would be cool.

Examples:

Aura-based support class
Time traveler
A class that shares it's body with an extraplanar being
A mask wearer (Majora's Mask minus Link)


What have you got?

I hate to say this, but all of this has been dealt with in one form or another. Still, that's no reason to despair. All this means is you can figure out what made these classes great. Most of these were filled in by third party.

-Numerous Homebrew does Aura based support. Also, I think PF's Inquisitor more or less fills the niche with the right archetype. Anyone know an archetype that applies Judgement effects to nearby allies.

-To my knowledge time manipulation classes exist under Rogue Genius Game's portofolio. Though no major time shifting as that can be a big DM headache. There's abilities to hasten or slow time to your favor.

-Synthesist Summoner technically does number 3. As does Binder, Occultist, and in the up and coming Occult Adventurers, there's a summoner replacement that calls entities into its own mind.
Spheres of magic adds to the list with Symboints.

-The last one, I am not sure about, but I am sure it's been done primarily via homebrew.


Isn't that the Paladin?

I would like to see PF's version of 3E's Warlock; that is, a class that gains a number of reusable spell-like abilities from some kind of pact. Bonus points if the pact makes a difference in gameplay.
I realize that PF's equivalent is basically the Witch, but the problem with the Witch is that it's a full caster first, hex user second; and frankly most hexes are rather lacklustre.

Another thing I'd like to see is a gish focused on short-range teleportation, of himself and/or enemies.

There's the up coming Kineticist from Occult Adventures that fills the same role. It's mechanics are considerably different than Warlock, but it's vastly more powerful without having to resort to item manipulation if you ask me. For one, it's a Con based class. Let that sink in for a moment.



Anyways, fullfilling the OP's request, I feel that we need:
- A strictly mundane AoE focused class. Maybe another class that uses bombs to terrifying effect. Alchemist shouldn't be the only one who can make things go boom. Heavy artillery use should be an archetype of this class.

-A "difficult but awesome" class featuring little to no spells, low BAB, low HD, and yet has really good abilities that justify the difficulty of playing it. The niche is "high risk, high reward"

-More alchemist styled classes as I feel "varied alchemy classes" is a niche unexplored. Specifically, using Extracts of up to 9th level and 4th level with low and high BAB respectively.

[atemu1234]

The Synthesist summoner does exactly what your third bullet says. There is a Third Party Class that kind of uses Time Traveler. It's called the Time Thief.

Or Wizard 17.

[Ravens_cry]

Or Wizard 17.
No. Really, No. Something that late game is not something you can really base a character around in almost any campaign.:smallconfused:

[atemu1234]

No. Really, No. Something that late game is not something you can really base a character around in almost any campaign.:smallconfused:

True, but balancing time travel is nigh-on impossible.

[Ravens_cry]

True, but balancing time travel is nigh-on impossible.
Hell, just GMing time travel, balance schmalance, is a whole hoary host of heinous headaches. An author can arrange so everything works out the way it should, but dealing with free willed agents? Oh gods, no . . .
I know there is at least one tabletop game that handles it, but, even then, while I do want to play, GMing? Never!

[Ilorin Lorati]

AtillaTheGeek made a pretty chill time manipulator here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?308549-PF-3-5-class-The-Temporalist-a-time-manipulator!-PEACH). Balance is somewhat wonky in places, but overall I never saw anything terribly breaking while one of my players was using it.

[ArcanistSupreme]

A crafting-focused class (artificer or warlock style) has not really been done satisfactorily.

Your third bullet is basically the Occultist.

A Beguiler-style skillmonkey caster with no bonus damage mechanic but more powerful magic has not been done.

While I do have some ideas for a crafting class, is it difficult to port the Artificer and/or Warlock to PF? Heck, there already is this PF Warlock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/warlock) posted on the PFsrd. Is there something about the PF crafting rules that makes them incompatible with the 3.5 ones?

As for the third one, I was thinking more along the lines of sharing with a single entity like an elemental, angel, or demon, but as has been pointed out, synthesist summoner covers it pretty thoroughly with some minor refluffing.


Beguiler, Dread Necromancer (?) style minionmancer, a class that focuses in defending against/protecting others with magic, Artificer.

Again (with the possible exception of the 3rd one), are these difficult to port from 3.5? Usually just tweaking the skills and maybe the HD is enough to get many classes up and running.


Isn't that the Paladin?

I would like to see PF's version of 3E's Warlock; that is, a class that gains a number of reusable spell-like abilities from some kind of pact. Bonus points if the pact makes a difference in gameplay.
I realize that PF's equivalent is basically the Witch, but the problem with the Witch is that it's a full caster first, hex user second; and frankly most hexes are rather lacklustre.

Another thing I'd like to see is a gish focused on short-range teleportation, of himself and/or enemies.

As to the Paladin, see the next quote. Paladin has some minor auras thrown in as a second thought. I'm looking for something with a little more oomph.

There is a 3rd party PF Warlock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/warlock). Does that fit the bill?

For the gish, how about DSP's Stalker with a focus on Veiled Moon maneuvers? Not as much teleporting of enemies (I think there is some?), but lots of self-teleportation, and plenty of maneuvers from other disciplines (check out the new Elemental Flux!) can add that gishy feel.


I assume he means Auras that are more generally useful. The Paladin's Aura's are pretty niche, and most only function within 10ft. Effects that are more useful (think Bard-song) and have a USEFUL radius would be nice.

Yup.


Crafter Vizier is getting somewhat close.

I've gone over the Akasha stuff briefly, but I'm more familiar with the Daevic and Guru than the Vizier. What exactly is its shtick, and what makes it better at crafting than, say, a wizard?


The Synthesist summoner does exactly what your third bullet says. There is a Third Party Class that kind of uses Time Traveler. It's called the Time Thief.

It requires some refluffing to fit the concept I had in mind, but Summoner does pretty much hit the nail on the head. Time Thief is okay, but it doesn't quite fit what I had in mine. I feel(/hope) that my own version is unique enough that there isn't a ton of overlap (although I may use some of its abilities for inspiration).


The really mobile attacker, who can hit and run away or move onto the next if that one drops.

Again, check out DSP's Stalker with a focus on Veiled Moon.


I hate to say this, but all of this has been dealt with in one form or another. Still, that's no reason to despair. All this means is you can figure out what made these classes great. Most of these were filled in by third party.

-Numerous Homebrew does Aura based support. Also, I think PF's Inquisitor more or less fills the niche with the right archetype. Anyone know an archetype that applies Judgement effects to nearby allies.

-To my knowledge time manipulation classes exist under Rogue Genius Game's portofolio. Though no major time shifting as that can be a big DM headache. There's abilities to hasten or slow time to your favor.

-Synthesist Summoner technically does number 3. As does Binder, Occultist, and in the up and coming Occult Adventurers, there's a summoner replacement that calls entities into its own mind.
Spheres of magic adds to the list with Symboints.

-The last one, I am not sure about, but I am sure it's been done primarily via homebrew.

-I have yet to find a satisfying Aura-based class. Most of them start to go in a direction I like, and then end up in solid Tier 5/low Tier 4 territory.

-The time traveler concept I had in mind is more about time manipulation, with actual time travel withheld until level 20 when the game doesn't really hold together all that well anyway. The Time Thief is okay, but doesn't quite fit my concept.

-The Synthesist, as mentioned, is pretty much spot on. And the others are pretty decent, too.

-The homebrew (and the WotC Master of Masks) I have seen of the concept has all been, erm, not great. Usually it's minor bonuses and a pain in the butt to use effectively.



Anyways, fullfilling the OP's request, I feel that we need:
- A strictly mundane AoE focused class. Maybe another class that uses bombs to terrifying effect. Alchemist shouldn't be the only one who can make things go boom. Heavy artillery use should be an archetype of this class.

-A "difficult but awesome" class featuring little to no spells, low BAB, low HD, and yet has really good abilities that justify the difficulty of playing it. The niche is "high risk, high reward"

-More alchemist styled classes as I feel "varied alchemy classes" is a niche unexplored. Specifically, using Extracts of up to 9th level and 4th level with low and high BAB respectively.

-So basically throwing around alchemical creations to...imitate spells? I'm not seeing a way to do this without resorting to "sure it looks like magic, but it's made with science so it's not!"

-The second idea is intriguing. It sounds like it would be tricky not to create a binary class that either completely shuts down encounters or is just soaking EXP from the rest of the party. Do you have any ideas?

-Again, I'm having trouble distinguishing alchemy from magic. Could you help me out with some more specifics? Maybe something along the lines of the Machinist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/louis-porter-jr-design/machinesmith)?


Thanks for all of this feedback! It's already got a bunch of ideas bouncing around my head.

EDIT:
And I just found Adamant Games's creatively named Artificer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer).

[Almarck]

For the record, while it's not Warlock or Artificier, Occult Adventures (offical Paizo material) is unveiling six classes, among which are the Kineticist and the Occultist. While they do not replicate the 3.5 classes on a thematic level (Magic changed to "psionics" for one), they fullfill the role mechanically.

You can get the data for the beta testing data on Paizo's website if you dig hard enough for free (no lie, it was on open beta up until the end of the year. Beta is closed, but the data can still be accessed until full release). I think it was stated to be out sometime during June. Might be wrong.



As for my ideas. They're all seperate ideas, just concepts I'd want to see.
- For the AoE martial, I was thinking among the lines of something involving either cannonry, or "death by a thousand cuts". The bomb thing of course was an example. There are examples of mundane explosives doing good damage in PF, usually quite expensive though, but they worked via AoE's instead of splash damage (equal damage to all targets, not lots of damage to a single target and min damage to the nearby enemies). So, yes, science, but not "superscience".

-The thing about the more variable alchemy classes is more of an idea that alchemy needs to have different progressions than just what it is. So while it's not a game role niche technically, it's more of a niche of variance of a concept.

-Lastly, the "difficult, but awesome" class is something I've always wanted to do. It's a concept that I've been thinking of, a class that basically be summed up as "ridiculous" under D&D's logic as you had to have something to hit it big. In this case, it is a question for the builders, how good do the class features have to be to make people want to play this? If we fail, it becomes like the monk, with abilities that while good weren't over the top enough without some forethought.

It's more of an exercise, a challenge into class design than anything really congealed into my head. But if I were to make such a class, among other things, it'd have to have the most ridiculous defenses in the whole game and a load of supernatural abilities.

Edit: the alternative is to give it so many bad abilities that don't synergize, you have to really think on how to pull out a victory. Potentially gamebreaking in the hands of a smart player, but a real novice would end up getting killed easily.

[Feint's End]

The Synthesist summoner does exactly what your third bullet says. There is a Third Party Class that kind of uses Time Traveler. It's called the Time Thief.

I for once disagree with that. It doesn't fit the flavour at all. Synthesist technically don't share their body with an outsider but rather surround their body and control it. Doesn't do it for me but to each their own.

Occultist (and the 3.5 binder) do a remarkable job though in getting this flavour down.

[Milo v3]

I've gone over the Akasha stuff briefly, but I'm more familiar with the Daevic and Guru than the Vizier. What exactly is its shtick, and what makes it better at crafting than, say, a wizard?
Vizier is effectively an akashic wizard, and the crafter path gives item creation feats for free, the ability to swap charges and magical abilities from item to item, a bonus to crafting magic items, cost reductions, use his essence as charges, and doesn't need to use UMD on items they invest their essence into.

I'm currently writing one up who is effectively Iron man.

[PsyBomb]

Vizier is effectively an akashic wizard, and the crafter path gives item creation feats for free, the ability to swap charges and magical abilities from item to item, a bonus to crafting magic items, cost reductions, use his essence as charges, and doesn't need to use UMD on items they invest their essence into.

I'm currently writing one up who is effectively Iron man.

Played that one in a game. Remember to call your Eye of the Oracle JARVIS and the rest is easy :)

[ArcanistSupreme]

I for once disagree with that. It doesn't fit the flavour at all. Synthesist technically don't share their body with an outsider but rather surround their body and control it. Doesn't do it for me but to each their own.

Occultist (and the 3.5 binder) do a remarkable job though in getting this flavour down.

While the flavor doesn't fit, with some refluffing synthesist is exactly what I had in mind. And the fluff itself has already been done quite well by the classes you mentioned. Either way, I'm not going to spend time reinventing the wheel.


Vizier is effectively an akashic wizard, and the crafter path gives item creation feats for free, the ability to swap charges and magical abilities from item to item, a bonus to crafting magic items, cost reductions, use his essence as charges, and doesn't need to use UMD on items they invest their essence into.

I'm currently writing one up who is effectively Iron man.

Ah. Is there anything else a crafter really needs? Too much more and it starts getting into ridiculous territory.

Anywho, I spent most of today in a frenzy of hammering out an aura class. I'm gonna post it over in the homebrew forum within the next few days, but now I can't be bothered with reformatting the whole bleeping thing. So, without further ado, I present:

The Dreamweaver (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TDh1gDPH6t95L2qwYvgogkJn9MjuyF0J4F4U5PtWUJo/edit?usp=sharing)

(Guess what comic I've been reading...)

It's not finished yet, but I have the class pretty much done in my head. All that's left is to type things out and do some editing. Thoughts?

[Ravens_cry]

I'd love to see a Divine Sneak, a counterpart to the Paladin and Cleric for gods focused more on stealth, agility and guile. Even with domains, clerics tend to be smashy smashy front liner beat sticks if they decide to play active combatents, even though that makes so little sense for many gods.

[deuxhero]

Isn't that the Inquisitor.

[Ravens_cry]

Isn't that the Inquisitor.
Not really. The Inquisitor struck me more as a Divine Bard type character with their use of teamwork feats.

[Milo v3]

Not really. The Inquisitor struck me more as a Divine Bard type character with their use of teamwork feats.

So we need an archeologist archetype for inquisitor?

[grarrrg]

Not really. The Inquisitor struck me more as a Divine Bard type character with their use of teamwork feats.

More like an Inverse Bard.
They get the effects of their Teamwork feats regardless, it doesn't matter if anyone else has them. Yeah, it stealth-encourages your teammates to pick them up as well, since you have them and all, but...

[Psyren]

Not really. The Inquisitor struck me more as a Divine Bard type character with their use of teamwork feats.

They are still good sneaks though, and they can certainly fill the striker/DPR role as well thanks to Bane, judgment, and litanies.

You can (and imo, should) easily drop the teamwork stuff with Preacher, which can be used on yourself because you are your own ally in PF. Spellbreaker is also a good choice, because spells and SLAs will be used against you in most campaigns.

[Deadkitten]

They are still good sneaks though, and they can certainly fill the striker/DPR role as well thanks to Bane, judgment, and litanies.

You can (and imo, should) easily drop the teamwork stuff with Preacher, which can be used on yourself because you are your own ally in PF. Spellbreaker is also a good choice, because spells and SLAs will be used against you in most campaigns.

The Sanctified Slayer Archetype for Inquisitor is definitely a divine rogue equivalent.

[DrMartin]

is it difficult to port the Artificer and/or Warlock to PF? [...] Is there something about the PF crafting rules that makes them incompatible with the 3.5 ones?

well not incompatible, but two of the 3.5 artificer's assets are available to everybody in PF (crafting without xp cost and ignoring prerequisites), so an adaptation should at least provide some extra tricks.

Other artificer conversions/adaptations to pf, in addition to the one you linked, are the gearhead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/icosa-entertainment-llc/gearhead) (link to PF srd), the artisan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/3rd-party-publisher---drop-dead-studios---classes/the-artisan) and the one that i personally like the most, a homebrew from the pf forum called the engineer (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BygeGgIcxI-2Mm5Jb00zT3JkQW8/edit).

I remember finding a list on the pf forum with a gazillion links to different variations on the concept - can't find the page at the moment though.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It doesn't fit the flavour at all. Synthesist technically don't share their body with an outsider but rather surround their body and control it.

If you restrict yourself to a medium biped Eidolon, it's basically indistinguishable. Nothing stopping you from making the Eidolon look like yourself with whatever extraplanar features you choose.

[grarrrg]

If you restrict yourself to a medium biped Eidolon, it's basically indistinguishable. Nothing stopping you from making the Eidolon look like yourself with whatever extraplanar features you choose.

Except for the part where you can't make it look like a specific creature.

[Vhaidara]

Except for the part where you can't make it look like a specific creature.

Any decent GM will let you ignore that if you're looking like you. Hell, I'm using synthesist to symbolize a curse that turns my character into a scorpion-man.

[Psyren]

Any decent GM will let you ignore that if you're looking like you.

Why would they? I for one would not allow a synthesist gnome to look like any other gnome. They would be a gnome riding around in some fantastic monster, or deformed in some way; something instantly recognizable as being weird.