The Complete Skirmisher

[Ionari]

What makes a good skirmisher? I.e., a character built around the skirmish-damage concept.

The question is too broad, and too abstract, to fit on the build optimization thread, but I haven't seen it addressed elsewhere on this forum either, so - let's see if we can collect people's collective wisdom and insights here.

Let me parse out what I think some of the relevant sub-questions are:

What are the best races and stat priorities for a skirmisher?

What are the best base classes (other than the obvious) for a skirmisher? E.g., would a dip into monk be helpful? What are the best PrCs?

What are the best feat trees for a skirmisher? Spring attack seems a natural; what about TWF, or archery? What tactical feats are most useful?

What are the most important skills for a skirmisher? Tumble seems pretty obvious; what else?

If a skirmisher manages to get some spellcasting power - what spells should he/she focus on? Mobility buffs, damage buffs, AC buffs, battlefield control, area damage, target damage, save-or-suck...?

What are some of the handiest magical items for a skirmisher?

What opponents is the skirmisher best equipped to handle, operating alone? What opponents is the skirmisher worst equipped to handle? (The latter seems like it should include any creature without vital spots susceptible to skirmish damage).

Probably the most fun question to answer - what maneuvers have you performed with a skirmisher that really stood out as awesome? E.g. feat combinations, using specific magical effects in specific situations to spectacular effect, controlling the battlefield in some especially cool way to trap the foe inside your zone of skirmishy goodness, etc.

Most abstractly, what is the "theory" of a skirmisher? Strengths, weaknesses and bottlenecks. What is holding the skirmisher back? Lack of to-hit, lack of damage per attack, lack of attacks? Put more concretely, if the skirmisher were offered a +1 bonus to to-hit or a +X bonus to damage, what would X have to be to make the skirmisher indifferent between the two (this judges the relative importance of to-hit and damage; if the skirmisher is okay on damage but has a hard time hitting, X would need to be relatively large)?

[Jalil]

What makes a good skirmisher? ...

What are the best races and stat priorities for a skirmisher? This depends on what you want to do. IME, archery works well, once you can get greater manyshot. Otherwise, you're stuck with TWF until you can get into dervish.


What are the best base classes (other than the obvious) for a skirmisher? E.g., would a dip into monk be helpful? What are the best PrCs?
Playing it striaght is an option, but if you TWF, dervish(CW) is required. If you like, take the swift Scoundrel(or somesuch) feat from CS, allows rogue to stack with scout for Skirmish.


What are the best feat trees for a skirmisher? Spring attack seems a natural; what about TWF, or archery? What tactical feats are most useful?
Greater Manyshot. It's on the SRD, and it's what helps scouts get thier goodies.


What are the most important skills for a skirmisher? Tumble seems pretty obvious; what else?

Max Hide. Once you get HiPS, it will be il-nasty.


If a skirmisher manages to get some spellcasting power - what spells should he/she focus on? Mobility buffs, damage buffs, AC buffs, battlefield control, area damage, target damage, save-or-suck...?

You're probably best off with Self-buffs. Some SoS spells, e.g. Glitterdust, are helpful, but enlarge person is a better bet.


What are some of the handiest magical items for a skirmisher?

I've heard of an Item that allows another 5'step per turn. supposedly from the Item Compendium, this boon allows you to 5' step twice around a guy, turning on skirmish, and allowing Full attack. If your DM is drunk, try to get him to allow a Bracers of Lion's Charge to slip by him. 5/day costs 14,400.


What opponents is the skirmisher best equipped to handle, operating alone? What opponents is the skirmisher worst equipped to handle? (The latter seems like it should include any creature without vital spots susceptible to skirmish damage).

Lone slow guys without much range. He can backpeddle, circle around, whiltling them down with the mass skirmish. Fast things, or things with better ranged firepower will bring you down, as well as crit-immune baddies.

That's all I can answer, as my experience with Scouts has been largely theoretical, almost no practical.

[Fax Celestis]

The best skirmisher I've seen is a Thri-Kreen Totemist 11/Scout 7, with a whole rack of potions of girallon's blessing.

Consider thus: With the correct soulmelds (girallon arms, unicorn horn, sphinx claws, urskan greaves/thunderstep boots), the girallon's blessing, and investiture into Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, and Snap Kick, you end up with the ability to full-attack with natural weapons at the end of a charge at minimum penalty.

With those soulmelds, and considering the Thri-Kreen's natural weapons, you end up with eight claws, a gore, a bite, and a kick with the following base attack pattern: +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+15/+15/+15 (+Str+GMF). Each attack does (at least) 1d6 + 4d4 + 2d6 + Str, is power-attack-able, and nets you +2 to AC. Due to the Scout's Flawless Stride ability, you can also do it through difficult terrain, and also receive +10' to your landspeed, augmenting the Thri-Kreen's 40' to 50'...which means you can charge 100' through difficult terrain to unleash a bundle of painful natural attacks.

[Kurobara]

For a decent magic item, Magic Item Compendium has the Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker - move have your base speed as a swift action. Would make you still be able to get a full attack in. Only once per day, but also only like 500gp.

Plus, while it does take up the neck slot, you can wear as many different Chronocharms as you like at one time. Only one or two of the other ones are that great, though.

[martyboy74]

Hustle (PsiWar 2) lets you get an extra move action as a swift action. Combined with Spring Attack, your DM may let you pull off a Full Attack inside a Spring Attack.

Move (Standard Action+Move Action=Full Attack) Action


I hope that diagram thingy makes sense.

[Kel_Arath]

i think barb is a good dip, adn reach weapons are never bad. spring attack obviously, and the improved skirmish feats.

[Ramza00]

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=778312

Or something similar to that build. Also check out the links in that main link.

[Ikkitosen]

For a decent magic item, Magic Item Compendium has the Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker - move have your base speed as a swift action. Would make you still be able to get a full attack in. Only once per day, but also only like 500gp.

Plus, while it does take up the neck slot, you can wear as many different Chronocharms as you like at one time. Only one or two of the other ones are that great, though.

Every Scout should have a lot of these by the sound of it.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Without being too cheesy, (Because Skrimish is such an easily abusable ability)
I'd say what is good would be to take the feats to get a level in Master Thrower, and take the Double Throw (Possibly called something else?) ability that lets you throw two thrown weapons as a single action.

Add Improved Skirmish from Complete Scoundrel and you've got an effective Skirmisher (which doesn't require level 15, odd collections of abused magic items, broken racail builds, or tons of odd dip classes to achieve.)

[Ikkitosen]

Using Complete Scoundrel Scout 3 / Ranger X is a great build. Full skirmish, plus spells, favoured enemy and the ability to skirmish those normally immune if they're a favoured enemy - get undead, constructs, oozes, plants etc. Archery style gives good extra feats - you get manyshot at CL9 and can take greater manyshot that same level.

[Bears With Lasers]

Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.

[Ionari]

Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.

Point taken. Though I'm not sure how easily you can set up sneak attack mid-combat if you are acting alone, sans flanking. (It is obviously possible, just not sure if there are particularly easy ways of doing it).

That said, this thread is about exploring how the skirmisher can be most effective, not exploring what class the skirmisher should have taken instead of scout etc.

So, if relying on skirmish for damage is a bit silly - what would *you* do, Bears, as a skirmisher, instead of focusing on damage? What abilities does the skirmisher have (and let's assume a mostly-scout build) that lets him/her shine? Or, alternatively, under what circumstances do the skirmisher's abilities become more effective?

[Ramza00]

Without being too cheesy, (Because Skrimish is such an easily abusable ability)
Explain how you can make skirmish "cheesy."

It is near impossible, the damage is just too low, and even when you do, it is still worse than a full caster. Additionally almost always a power attacker or a rogue will be doing more damage per round, and even if you can equal the same damage as one of those classes your hp and ac are going to be lower than a full fighter.

[Ramza00]

As said before, a Scout 3/Ranger 17 is the way to go. Focus on archery, if for some reason archery is out, drop your bow and use your back up two handed weapon with lion's charge (have some pearls of power and have your cleric and wizard cast those weapon buffs on the weapon)

[Kurobara]

Every Scout should have a lot of these by the sound of it.

Actually, it just got pointed out to me by a scout in my current group that they have to be on for 24 hours first to work. >_> So, unfortunately, can't just swap them out every battle. But still not a bad thing to have for in a pinch.

[the_tick_rules]

scout class from complete adventurer, their whole concept is skirmishing.

[the_tick_rules]

Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.

Well skirimish works even when your opponets are aware your there.

[Artemician]

Well skirimish works even when your opponets are aware your there.

While Skirmish does work when the enemy is aware of you, it is still much harder to set up than Sneak Attack, simply because of its short range. 30 ft is piddling range, and the AoOs you'll provoke will step up. The minor bonuses to AC you get just don't cut it.

You can go some cheesy build that lets you take another 5 ft step a round, but that's cheese.

Sneak Attack on the other hand, only requires a suitable buddy for you to flank the opponent AND you can full attack with it.

[Ikkitosen]

Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.

Greater Manyshot? Improved Skirmish (that's an extra 2D6 per arrow)? And for Sneak Attack you generaly have to go stand next to your target.


While Skirmish does work when the enemy is aware of you, it is still much harder to set up than Sneak Attack, simply because of its short range. 30 ft is piddling range, and the AoOs you'll provoke will step up. The minor bonuses to AC you get just don't cut it.

Scouts get Tumble.

[Ranis]

With those soulmelds, and considering the Thri-Kreen's natural weapons, you end up with eight claws, a gore, a bite, and a kick with the following base attack pattern: +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+15/+15/+15 (+Str+GMF). Each attack does (at least) 1d6 + 4d4 + 2d6 + Str, is power-attack-able, and nets you +2 to AC. Due to the Scout's Flawless Stride ability, you can also do it through difficult terrain, and also receive +10' to your landspeed, augmenting the Thri-Kreen's 40' to 50'...which means you can charge 100' through difficult terrain to unleash a bundle of painful natural attacks.

That, that is beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous. Now, what book is Totemist in? You just made the villain that my PCs will hate for long time.

[Dhavaer]

That, that is beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous. Now, what book is Totemist in? You just made the villain that my PCs will hate for long time.

Magic of Incarnum.

[The Glyphstone]

Wasn't there a Ebberon web enhancement on the Wizards site that introduced mechanical roller skates, letting you 10-ft step instead of 5-ft step?

[ArmorArmadillo]

Explain how you can make skirmish "cheesy."

It is near impossible, the damage is just too low, and even when you do, it is still worse than a full caster. Additionally almost always a power attacker or a rogue will be doing more damage per round, and even if you can equal the same damage as one of those classes your hp and ac are going to be lower than a full fighter.
Wizard polymorphs you into a Gryphon (or something else with pounce)
Totemist
Action Surge (2 action points for extra action; move then full attack)
Mechanical roller skates mentioned earlier
Dual Strike

I've seen a level 8 scout, properly built, kill an Erinyes in one turn.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

If you take the Crossbow Sniper feat, you can skirmish (and sneak attack) from 60 ft away. Not the best option for weapon or feat usage, I know, but an option nonetheless.

[Ramza00]

1)Wizard polymorphs you into a Gryphon (or something else with pounce)
2)Totemist
3)Action Surge (2 action points for extra action; move then full attack)
4)Mechanical roller skates mentioned earlier
5)Dual Strike

I've seen a level 8 scout, properly built, kill an Erinyes in one turn.
1) This trick also works with a power attacker fighter, and he will still do more damage. Pounce gives the fighter a full attack too.
2) Lots of natural attacks also works well if not better with a full attack fighter. You can power attack with natural weapons (and monk strikes) even though they are light weapons, the power attack ratio is identical to a one handed weapon.
3) See 1 and 2
4) See 1 and 2
5) See 1 and 2

So how is skirmish broken? Only way I can see you saying it is broken is to say power attack is also broken.

[Darrin]

Point taken. Though I'm not sure how easily you can set up sneak attack mid-combat if you are acting alone, sans flanking. (It is obviously possible, just not sure if there are particularly easy ways of doing it).

To set up flanking all by yourself:

1) Distracting Ember maneuvre, or any other ToB maneuver that denies your target a Dex bonus.
2) Island of Blades + Cohort/Animal Companion/Summoned creature.
3) Vexing Flanker, Adaptive Flanker, and then either a spiked chain or Island of Blades.
4) Clarion Commander.




That said, this thread is about exploring how the skirmisher can be most effective, not exploring what class the skirmisher should have taken instead of scout etc.


Stance: Press the Advantage = pretty much perpetual skirmish damage. Takes 9 levels of Warblade or Crusader, but then again, that's not really a bad thing.

It's hard to get more than 2d6 Skirmish damage... probably not worth it to pick up more than one level of Scout and two levels of Highland Stalker, then maybe Unseen Seer, unless you're doing some kind of Daring Outlaw thing.

[storybookknight]

If you want to play someone cagey rather than a full out damage dealer, spring attack + a reach weapon works pretty well. Run in, get a few extra d6's of damage, run out without ever getting AOOed.

[Ramza00]

If you want to play someone cagey rather than a full out damage dealer, spring attack + a reach weapon works pretty well. Run in, get a few extra d6's of damage, run out without ever getting AOOed.
Works great until the enemy you just hit but didn't kill decides to charge you. Charge allows him to use a double movement to reach you.

[Indon]

Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.

Well, if you want it that way, just take Swift Ambusher from Complete Scoundrel as a Scout 3/Rogue X and get just about the best of both worlds.

[Ionari]

OK - some very helpful input about skirmisher as archer, and to a lesser degree about skirmisher as weapon thrower. Hats off to folks' ingenuity - and breadth of knowledge :smallamused:

Now, what about the melee skirmisher? So far, we've had a couple of spell recommendations (glitterdust, enlarge person - presumably for reach purposes, and the everpresent polymorph), and some feat suggestions (e.g. dual strike), plus some ToB goodness; but not at the same level of detail as the archer-skirmisher builds that were linked to by some posters. Of course, a melee skirmisher might not be people's top choice for power-playing, but if you were playing one - and wanted to beat an erinyes at level 8, or whatever suitable challenge you fancied - what feat and spell combos would you pick up? I'm especially interested in non-ToB-based builds, though if you have a ToB build that you think is particularly clever, by all means showcase it here!

Let me pose some concrete questions to start this off:

1. What do you think of the acrobatic strike / improved acrobatic strike / acrobatic skirmisher feats? These require you to tumble through the foe's square (or through a threatened square) to get some benefits - is it worth it?

2. Would it make sense for a skirmisher to invest resources (feat, magic) in tripping?

[Matthew]

For Melee Skirmishers (a fairly bad idea), I would probably go with a Scout X and a Long Spear, probably in combination with Combat Reflexes (though I don't recall if the specific wording of the Skirmish Class Feature allows for Attacks of Opportunity). Stick in Power Attack / Cleave and it's associated cheese (such as Leap Attack and Shock Trooper) to make him 'reasonably' effective.

[Fax Celestis]

The best skirmisher I've seen is a Thri-Kreen Totemist 11/Scout 7, with a whole rack of potions of girallon's blessing.

Consider thus: With the correct soulmelds (girallon arms, unicorn horn, sphinx claws, urskan greaves/thunderstep boots), the girallon's blessing, and investiture into Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, and Snap Kick, you end up with the ability to full-attack with natural weapons at the end of a charge at minimum penalty.

With those soulmelds, and considering the Thri-Kreen's natural weapons, you end up with eight claws, a gore, a bite, and a kick with the following base attack pattern: +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+15/+15/+15 (+Str+GMF). Each attack does (at least) 1d6 + 4d4 + 2d6 + Str, is power-attack-able, and nets you +2 to AC. Due to the Scout's Flawless Stride ability, you can also do it through difficult terrain, and also receive +10' to your landspeed, augmenting the Thri-Kreen's 40' to 50'...which means you can charge 100' through difficult terrain to unleash a bundle of painful natural attacks.

Hey, hey, melee skirmisher.

For extra doom, take Improved Skirmish, Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, and either wear an amulet of natural attacks or have someone cast Greater Magic Fang on you. Now, if you move 20' (easy on a charge) and Power Attack, your attacks do 1d6 + 4d4 + 4d6 + 5 + Str + 3*Power Attack (average 84 + Str, when Power Attacking for 20 (doable due to Shock Trooper)), and gives you +4 AC. And you get eleven of them.

[Matthew]

You and your Thri-Kreen, it's beyond my ken, I say!

[Fax Celestis]

You and your Thri-Kreen, it's beyond my ken, I say!

I loves me my thri-kreen.

[Kiero]

Skirmishers melee as last resort. They're primarily ranged-focused. Because once you go toe-to-toe they lose their most important strength: mobility.

[Person_Man]

Skirmish is a minor class ability, and isn't really worth trying to maximize. Skirmish has all the precision restrictions of Sneak Attack, but with far slower progression.

Even a Scout/Ranger with Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot will only be dealing +24.5 damage on each arrow at 20th level. Not very impressive in terms of damage output.

[Ikkitosen]

Skirmish is a minor class ability, and isn't really worth trying to maximize. Skirmish has all the precision restrictions of Sneak Attack, but with far slower progression.

Even a Scout/Ranger with Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot will only be dealing +24.5 damage on each arrow at 20th level. Not very impressive in terms of damage output.

So what would you spend your feats on as a scout?

[Person_Man]

So what would you spend your feats on as a scout?

Well, that depends on what you want to do.

You can be a Kobold with the Kobold racial feats to gain flight and immunities.

Even if you're not a Kobold, various grafts grant flight, and then you can invest in the Flight feats.

Nymph's Kiss gives you 1 Skill point per level.

You can be a Half-Elf with Sociable Personality to re-roll any Diplomacy or Gather Information check.

You can be a Human with Able Learner so you never have to buy Skills cross-class.

Quick Reconnoiter helps a lot against Invisible or otherwise hidden enemies.

Undead Empathy allows you to use your Diplomacy against mindless undead, and gives you a bonus against non-mindless undead, essentially allowing you to talk your way out of literally any encounter.

Combat Acrobat prevents you from being knocked Prone.

Track is always useful if you don't have a Ranger in the party, as is Urban Tracking if you spend a lot of time in town.

Many DM's ban Leadership and various related feats as being too powerful, but since the Scout is on the low end of the combat power pool, a Dragon Cohort or something similar might be a great idea for your character.

Ancestral Relic will give you a half decent magic item.

Frightful Presence gives you a useful Fear effect, as does Greater Kiai Shout.

Tomb Born Vitality means you don't have to sleep, making resting much easier for the party, and vastly decreasing the chances of a night time ambush.

I often use Quickdraw and a Handy Haversack full of various alchemical items.

If you want to provide some archer support, the archery tree is always useful. But its been my personal experience that most Skill Monkey builds suck at combat, and excel outside of combat. So I would focus on defense and improving your abilities outside of combat.

[Ikkitosen]

Well, that depends on what you want to do.

You can be a Kobold with the Kobold racial feats to gain flight and immunities.

Even if you're not a Kobold, various grafts grant flight, and then you can invest in the Flight feats.

Nymph's Kiss gives you 1 Skill point per level.

You can be a Half-Elf with Sociable Personality to re-roll any Diplomacy or Gather Information check.

You can be a Human with Able Learner so you never have to buy Skills cross-class.

Quick Reconnoiter helps a lot against Invisible or otherwise hidden enemies.

Undead Empathy allows you to use your Diplomacy against mindless undead, and gives you a bonus against non-mindless undead, essentially allowing you to talk your way out of literally any encounter.

Combat Acrobat prevents you from being knocked Prone.

Track is always useful if you don't have a Ranger in the party, as is Urban Tracking if you spend a lot of time in town.

Many DM's ban Leadership and various related feats as being too powerful, but since the Scout is on the low end of the combat power pool, a Dragon Cohort or something similar might be a great idea for your character.

Ancestral Relic will give you a half decent magic item.

Frightful Presence gives you a useful Fear effect, as does Greater Kiai Shout.

Tomb Born Vitality means you don't have to sleep, making resting much easier for the party, and vastly decreasing the chances of a night time ambush.

I often use Quickdraw and a Handy Haversack full of various alchemical items.

If you want to provide some archer support, the archery tree is always useful. But its been my personal experience that most Skill Monkey builds suck at combat, and excel outside of combat. So I would focus on defense and improving your abilities outside of combat.

I can honestly say that apart from the specific kobold case I consider almost every one of those options to suck, sorry. All diplomacy-enhancers (of which you list quite a few) suck since scouts don't get diplomacy OR gather info. Nymph's Kiss maybe, but it has RP connotations and you already get plenty o skill points. Able Learner? Like your skill list sin't big enough? Fear effects - you've dumped cha though, since you're a scout. Alchemical items? Vs. skirmsh? No thanks.

Seriously, you're already good outside of combat. Spend your feats on trying to contribute IN combat.

[Person_Man]

I can honestly say that apart from the specific kobold case I consider almost every one of those options to suck, sorry. All diplomacy-enhancers (of which you list quite a few) suck since scouts don't get diplomacy OR gather info. Nymph's Kiss maybe, but it has RP connotations and you already get plenty o skill points. Able Learner? Like your skill list sin't big enough?

I find it funny that you knock Able Learner because a Scout's list is big enough while simultaneously knocking all the Diplo options because some of the social Skills aren't on the class list. It's also quite common for Scouts to multi-class or head into a PrC, so its quite easy to avoid Skill List problems. One level of Human Paragon, for example.

Keep in mind that if you can get your social Skills to a high enough level, you can pretty much avoid combat with anything intelligent that can talk, while making the game much more roleplaying heavy. That's a pretty good investment in my book.


Fear effects - you've dumped cha though, since you're a scout.

Alchemical items? Vs. skirmsh? No thanks.

Seriously, you're already good outside of combat. Spend your feats on trying to contribute IN combat.


Well normally I would always suggest dumping Cha. But you're a Skill Monkey. At best you're going to be mediocre at combat. Why not embrace being bad at it, and focus on other things? Pump Int and Cha, and depend on your uber Cohort and Fear effects and items to be useful in combat, and be wildly useful outside of combat thanks to your many Skills.

Also, I wouldn't knock alchemical items. Look through the supplements, and you can find all sorts of things that blind, stun, entangle, deafen, nauseate, poison, and otherwise screw your enemies. When used properly, they're a lot more useful then a few extra dice of damage.

Anywho, a lot of this boils down to playing philosophy. 99% of the time I get accused of putting too much focus on combat optimization. But its hard to do that for a Scout, so why even try. Have fun doing other things in the game. If you want to be a Skill Monkey that has lots of Precision damage, a Rogue is a much better choice.

[Ramza00]

Scout and Urban Ranger will help with pretty much all the social skills besides diplomacy by adding them to your lists (and with able learner you get them all at 1to1 cost) . A lvl of feat rogue or a lvl of Human Paragon (which isn't so good with able learner) can add the rest of the skills to your list.

Or as a DM it wouldn't upset the overall balance by adding these skills to the scout list. Yes it will be a houserule I know.

[Ikkitosen]

I find it funny that you knock Able Learner because a Scout's list is big enough while simultaneously knocking all the Diplo options because some of the social Skills aren't on the class list. It's also quite common for Scouts to multi-class or head into a PrC, so its quite easy to avoid Skill List problems. One level of Human Paragon, for example.

If you wish to be a diplomat don't play a Scout! I'm advising playing to your current strengths - you've been given Skirmish so that your skill monkey can contribute in some manner in combat, so don't ignore it! Able Learner IMO is most useful for multicalss builds as you mention, not for getting CC skills cheaply since the max ranks nerfs you.


Keep in mind that if you can get your social Skills to a high enough level, you can pretty much avoid combat with anything intelligent that can talk, while making the game much more roleplaying heavy. That's a pretty good investment in my book.

Yes, but as a Scout, even with Able Learner, you can't get them high enough. Play a Bard if you want to talk your way out of lots of fights. Taking some ranks for flavour is all good, just don't base a build (and thus spend feats) on it.


Well normally I would always suggest dumping Cha. But you're a Skill Monkey. At best you're going to be mediocre at combat. Why not embrace being bad at it, and focus on other things?

Because D&D is around 50% combat as an average. If you play RP heavy games that's fine, but bear in mind in such a game you're likely surrounded by Bards and Beguilers!


Pump Int and Cha, and depend on your uber Cohort and Fear effects and items to be useful in combat, and be wildly useful outside of combat thanks to your many Skills.

"Let someone else do the fighting" isn't very heroic, even when they're your cohort.


Also, I wouldn't knock alchemical items. Look through the supplements, and you can find all sorts of things that blind, stun, entangle, deafen, nauseate, poison, and otherwise screw your enemies. When used properly, they're a lot more useful then a few extra dice of damage.

This I totally concede - there may well be alchemical items I'm not familiar with. I find it hard to believe they're that effective though, since I've been around a bit and not heard too many mentioned in games or discussions of games.


Anywho, a lot of this boils down to playing philosophy. 99% of the time I get accused of putting too much focus on combat optimization. But its hard to do that for a Scout, so why even try. Have fun doing other things in the game. If you want to be a Skill Monkey that has lots of Precision damage, a Rogue is a much better choice.

I like the challenge! Scouts have great flavour, are great solo characters (better than most rogue builds) and are a nice, alternate trap/skillmonkey.

Rogues are great, but not the subject of this thread :smallwink:

[Matthew]

I like the challenge! Scouts have great flavour, are great solo characters (better than most rogue builds) and are a nice, alternate trap/skillmonkey.

Rogues are great, but not the subject of this thread :smallwink:
Exactly. So, let's continue... A Human Scout with a Long Spear would still be my best bet for a Default Core Game + Complete Adventurer Melee Scout.

[Fax Celestis]

Nah. Monk 9/Scout 11'd be better, since you'd get huge movement range, evasion, etc.

[Matthew]

How would you progress him, though?

[Ikkitosen]

...for a Default Core Game + Complete Adventurer Melee Scout.

Scouts gained a lot with the class combo feats from Complete Scoundrel. Core + CA is pretty weak unfortunately :(

[Fax Celestis]

How would you progress him, though?

Scout 5/Monk 9/Scout 6.

[Matthew]

Scouts gained a lot with the class combo feats from Complete Scoundrel. Core + CA is pretty weak unfortunately :(
What did you have in mind?

Scout 5/Monk 9/Scout 6.
Hmmn. I'm not convinced of this build yet. The main benefit appears to be Speed increase?

[Stevenson]

If you want goliath, you can do perigrine runner PrC, which gives more skirmish and other interesting stuff.

[Fax Celestis]

What did you have in mind?

Hmmn. I'm not convinced of this build yet. The main benefit appears to be Speed increase?

That's indeed it. I figure if you're going to be having your main source of damage come from your movement, you might as well have a lot of movement to use.

EDIT: also, correct investiture into Spring Attack would make you able to nearly endlessly stay out of range of your opponent.

[Matthew]

Wouldn't one level of Barbarian be more handy than three levels of Monk in such a build?

[Fax Celestis]

Wouldn't one level of Barbarian be more handy than three levels of Monk in such a build?

Theoretically. There's a lot of nifty that comes along with Monk levels, though there's also a lot of nifty that comes with Barbarian levels. Perhaps Barbarian (Ferocity Variant) 1/Scout 4/Ranger 10, with Swift Hunter and focusing on TWF.

[Rigeld2]

EDIT: also, correct investiture into Spring Attack would make you able to nearly endlessly stay out of range of your opponent.
But remember kids, you cant Manyshot in a Spring Attack. (not saying Fax is suggesting that, just a reminder)

[Fax Celestis]

But remember kids, you cant Manyshot in a Spring Attack. (not saying Fax is suggesting that, just a reminder)

Well, no, that was for a melee type.

[Ikkitosen]

What did you have in mind?

The feats that allow you to multiclass and get 2 "weak" (i.e. non-full caster) classes' abilities at once, like sneak attack and skirmish, or skirmish and favoured enemy (and full BAB from ranger levels).

Although these require multiclassing you're still a scout character, with skirmish and high skill points.

[Jannex]

For melee Scouts, Dervish is awesome. Of course, Dervish is awesome in any case. Though I don't remember how it does for skill points...

[Matthew]

True, but it is a hard road to reach Dervish...

For a Single Classed Melee Scout with a 28 Point Buy Build, I think I would end up going with something like:

Human Scout 1, AB 0(2), AC 16, HP 10,
Strength 14, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 12, Charisma 10,
Skills: Search 4(5), Spot 4(5), Listen 4(5), Sneak 4(4), Hide 4(4), Climb 4(4), Leap 4(4), Swim 4(2), Knowledge (Nature) 4(5), Knowledge (Dungeons) 4(5),
Feats: Dodge, Mobility,
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Long Spear, Short Bow, Short Sword, Dagger,

Scout 2:
Scout 3: Spring Attack,
Scout 4: Scout Bonus Feat,
Scout 5:
Scout 6: Power Attack,
Scout 7:
Scout 8: Scout Bonus Feat
Scout 9: Leap Attack

That's pretty much the most straight forward build I can think of. An alternative would be to drop the Spring Attack Route (it does suck) and go with Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus and Leap Attack