Warforged Juggernaut - Feat Progression / Possibilities

[Chester]

Finally starting to play my Warforged Juggernaut build, starting level 2. 3.5 edition. I haven't decided on Feat progression yet, but I'm looking at ideas. Point buy values are under discussion with the group, but I'll definitely be focused on strength and constitution. Wisdom and charisma are dumps.

Going with Sprit Lion Totem Barbarian and Dungeoncrasher Fighter Variants. I'll be taking two flaws to replace the lost Feats wtih Dungeoncrasher. I'm also considering adding two Traits.

Anyway, build will be:

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / DC Fighter 4 / Warforged Juggernaut 5 / DC Fighter
2 / ?????

Not sure where I'm going after the last two levels of fighter; Frenzied Berserker can be fun, but the group still needs convincing.

So far, feats look like:

L1: Adamantine Body
Flaw1: Power Attack
Flaw 2: ???
Fight. 1: Cleave
L3: Improved Bull Rush

Since I've thus met my prereqs for Juggernaut by level 3, I'm open to suggestions.

Feats I'm considering include: Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Improved Shield Bash, Extra Rage, Improved Initiative.

If I go FB, I'd have to add Destructive Rage and Intimidating Rage at some point, but that's for later if I go that route.

Thoughts?

EDIT: No, I'm not permitted to mix-n-match other Totem variants. I know the wolf trick!

[KingSmitty]

before you take FB, look up Berserk from Deities and Demigods. It has almost the same ability at level one, but gets +6con in addition to the str bonus. And since Rage and Frenzy and the berserk's Battle Fury all stack, you can get +16 to str if u activate all at once.

For feats, I liked to use knockback but you may be better off with knockdown, trip your enemies and then come in and crush em.

also if u can afford it, the arachnid chassis from Eberron is perfect for a juggernaut. 30k gold is a lot, but save up for it, of course after you get a lot of repair oils.

For traits.......quick. always quick.

[Chester]

For traits.......quick. always quick.

Doesn't that conflict with Adamantine Body?

[torrasque666]

Doesn't that conflict with Adamantine Body?

Adamantine Body: Base Land Speed is reduced to 20.
Quick: Add 10 to your land speed.


Really, it depends on the order its applied, and how the DM rules they are applied.

[Zaq]

before you take FB, look up Berserk from Deities and Demigods. It has almost the same ability at level one, but gets +6con in addition to the str bonus. And since Rage and Frenzy and the berserk's Battle Fury all stack, you can get +16 to str if u activate all at once.

This isn't necessarily a good idea. First, entering a Berserk's Battle Fury is a standard action. While it's nice to bump up your numbers with it, a standard action in combat is a huge cost, and I'd say it's very unlikely to be worthwhile. You're likely to add more damage to the encounter by getting in an extra turn of attacks than you are by buffing your attacks on turn 2+, you see, unless your attacks are very, very weak to begin with. Which they shouldn't be—you're a beatstick, after all.

Second, Frenzied Berserker is a powerful class, but it's NOT powerful because of Frenzy. Using Frenzy is actually a trap. The best thing to do with Frenzied Berserker is to get up every morning, go away from the party, blindfold yourself, and use up all your Frenzies flailing around aimlessly (and harmlessly). Then you calm down, take off the blindfold, rejoin the party, and go about your adventuring day without the chance of stubbing your toe and gibbing the party Rogue because you rolled higher in initiative than the Wizard (yes, yes, Grease can shut down a Frenzied Berserker, but that means that the Wizard has to perfectly time his actions so that he goes after the last enemy is killed but before the Berserker gets another action, which is not easy to do if the Wizard is doing anything other than waiting to shut down the FB). Why be a Frenzied Berserker without Frenzy? Simple—it gives you an insane bonus to Power Attack returns, and that bonus is multiplied by Leap Attack. You can turn a relatively small penalty into an absolutely massive bonus (or, with Shock Trooper, you can turn a massive AC penalty into a kill-everything-you-hit bonus). The Frenzy is a trap, but the Power Attack bonuses are pure gold.

On this character, I don't know if FB would be a good idea, just because it takes quite a few feats to get in, and you'll probably do enough damage without the Power Attack bonuses. But if you do go FB, don't use Frenzy. It's just not a good idea.

[ninjamaster1991]

I recommend Tomb-Tainted Soul. Warforged Juggernauts are immune to positive energy, but negative energy has the full effect on them - so there isn't any downside.

[Chester]

But if you do go FB, don't use Frenzy. It's just not a good idea.

So let's say I don't go FB . . .


I recommend Tomb-Tainted Soul. Warforged Juggernauts are immune to positive energy, but negative energy has the full effect on them - so there isn't any downside.

Well, a) I'll be Chaotic Good, and b) I'll have an artificer buddy ready with the repair spells. Besides, I CAN heal from positive energy before Juggernaut.

Better question: Are Extra Rage, Shield Bash, and Improved Initiative worth it?

[Zaq]

Extra Rage is good if you want to rely on raging, but ultimately, it's only as good as the rage is. If you're using, for example, Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), then Extra Rage is pretty darn awesome, because that's effectively two more encounters per day when you get an extra attack every turn, which will probably increase your damage nearly as much as any other single build element you've got, aside from maybe Pounce (which is also increasing your attacks per turn, just differently). If you're attacking for 10 damage a hit, it's effectively adding 10 damage per turn for two encounters a day; if you're attacking for 40 a hit, it's effectively adding 40 damage a turn. 3 encounters per day isn't likely to be enough to be raging in 100% of your combats, but it's enough that you can probably consider it to be a "primary strategy."

If, on the other hand, you're just using vanilla rage, then all it's really giving you is some bigger numbers in some (but likely not all) of your combats. +4 STR doesn't suck (it's effectively +2 to hit and +3 to damage, assuming you're using a two-handed weapon)—that's a decently big bonus as far as feats go, but I don't know if it's as character-defining as a feat that gives you a new combat option. I don't think it's necessarily a waste to take it, but if you're not getting something special out of your rage, then the feat isn't giving you anything more than some conditional numbers.

Improved Shield Bash isn't amazing. If you really want to have a character using a shield as a primary weapon, it's pretty much a necessity, but you're likely to be better off just using a two-handed weapon and ignoring the shield altogether, rather than trying to turn your shield into a weapon. (It can be kinda useful if you're doing a TWF build that for some reason absolutely needs to have a shield, but that's pretty niche, and I wouldn't assume it would be a primary strategy on a Warforged Juggernaut/Dungeoncrasher.) I know that it does open up some other feats down the line, but I'm not convinced that they're worth the investment. That said, if your vision of the character absolutely requires that they be carrying a shield and bonking people with it, then sure, have fun. But in a vacuum, it's not going to be the optimized choice.

Improved Initiative is never a bad feat. Going first is good, especially on a high-damage character (who could conceivably remove an enemy from the fight on turn 1). If you go before an opponent, that can effectively mean that you've got an extra turn that they don't get. That said, if you need to squeeze extra feats into your build, it's probably one of the first ones on the chopping block, just because it doesn't do anything incredibly special. And of course, if you can't impose your terms of battle on the encounter on turn 1, then it's less important that you go first. (It's still never a bad idea to go first, but it's a lot less important to go first if your first turn is "I damage that guy for 20% of his HP" rather than "I kill one of my foes" or "I position myself in a really inconvenient spot for the enemy casters" or "I lob an AoE that hits all my enemies and none of my allies.")

[Gullintanni]

Adamantine Body: Base Land Speed is reduced to 20.
Quick: Add 10 to your land speed.


Really, it depends on the order its applied, and how the DM rules they are applied.

Abilities are applied in the order that is most advantageous to the player. Therefore, in this case, Adamantine Body would reduce your speed to 20, then you would apply Quick, ending up with a speed of 30.

[RoyVG]

Jaws of Death feat? Give you a secondary bite attack that you can apply after your weapon attacks at a -5 penalty when you Pounce. 1d6 +1/2 strength mod damage (if medium).

Going Shocktrooper with Dungeon Crasher, al well as with Frenzied Berserkers Power Attack improvements is a must so make sure you can get it ASAP.

Also bear in mind that once you are immune to mind affecting effects from WFJ, you do no recieve the morale bonus to Will anymore, which will make it harder to end your Frenzy prematurely, so you may start beating up your party members before you know it.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would consider two levels of reforged as a cap to the end of your more vital levels in this build. It brings back some of the things you lost during juggernaut and if you don't take the third level, you don't lose anything.

[Sian]

fluffwise Reforged and Juggernaut are antithetical to each other, while they doesn't directly come say so, they really should have been listed as mutually exclusive from a fluff point of view

[torrasque666]

I would consider two levels of reforged as a cap to the end of your more vital levels in this build. It brings back some of the things you lost during juggernaut and if you don't take the third level, you don't lose anything.

All it does is reduce your penalty on a few skills by 2, can heal naturally, and a bonus on Wis checks. It doesn't negate your immunity to healing. You gain the full benefit of any healing spell applied to you yes, but you're also immune and thus they can't be applied in the first place.

So it doesn't really change anything from Juggernaut, as the Wis check bonus negates your natural penalty to wisdom(actually improves it) and the healing naturally bit also negates the normal relevant information from the base Warforged.