Pale Master Question?

[Namedoesntfi]

Hey all, just had a quick question: I have a Wizard 9/Pale master 1, and was wondering how leveling up the pale master class worked. The book says you gain spells as if you had gained a level in your arcane class, but does this mean I'm permanently gaining spells as if I had moved to wizard 10/pale master 1, or does it act as though I were gaining cumulative levels (i.e. 9->10->11)?

[sideswipe]

whenever a prestige class progresses spellcasting you treat it as such.

you pick a class you had before you entered the prestige that had spellcasting that can be progressed (the example here is wizard as you can progress arcane).

whenever you gain a level in this prestige class that advances spellcasting, you add it to your levels in your base class when determining spells per day (and in most cases spells known/ learned).

so since pale master 1 does not progress your casting, your wizard 9/pale master 1 has the spellcasting of a level 9 wizard.

when you progress to a wizard 9/pale master 2 you will have casting equal to a wizard 10. since pale master progressed you one level.
so you will have the new spells per day and more spells known, your caster level will increase to 10.
you do not gain anything else from wizard, no features (feats) no skill points, no HD, no nothing apart from your casting level effectively increases.

[torrasque666]

you do not gain anything else from wizard, no features (feats) no skill points, no HD, no nothing apart from your casting level effectively increases.
Including the free spells.

Err.... that might only be a pathfinder specific thing though.

[Andezzar]

Including the free spells.

Err.... that might only be a pathfinder specific thing though.That must be PF only, because the Pale Master PrC increases spells known as well as spells per day.
A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.

[Karl Aegis]

Pale Master doesn't advance spellbook progression, so it doesn't get the free 2 spells known into their spellbook for gaining a wizard level. Most DMs, however, will give you those 2 free spells anyways.

[Andezzar]

Pale Master doesn't advance spellbook progression, so it doesn't get the free 2 spells known into their spellbook for gaining a wizard level. Most DMs, however, will give you those 2 free spells anyways.You may want to read the rules again:

Beginning at 2nd level, a pale master gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.
Since wizard is the most likely entry for the pale master I assume that that will be the chosen class.

At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

[Karl Aegis]

You may want to read the rules again:

Since wizard is the most likely entry for the pale master I assume that that will be the chosen class.

Yes, RAW the rules are awful. A pale master level is not a wizard level. Spellbook is a different class feature than spells. Sorcerer spells known class feature is under spells. Wizards spells known is not. Pale Master, by RAW, does not advance spellbook.

[Andezzar]

It is irrelevant that the spellbook is a different class feature. The pale master rules explicitly state that the character gains spells known as if he increased his wizard level, not as dictated in the spell class feature of the chosen class. Since the increased spells known are explicitly gained, they do not fall under the other benefits that the pale master does not get.

[prufock]

It is irrelevant that the spellbook is a different class feature. The pale master rules explicitly state that the character gains spells known as if he increased his wizard level, not as dictated in the spell class feature of the chosen class. Since the increased spells known are explicitly gained, they do not fall under the other benefits that the pale master does not get.
Not by RAW. Read the wizard class description. "Spells known" does not appear, therefore wizards do not have spells known, therefore there is nothing for the PM feature to progress. Spells in a spellbook are not "spells known."

Of course I allow it as a case of RAI, but if not wizards just have to spend some coin to add spells.

[Andezzar]

Unless you are insisting on that a spell known is not a known spell, look at one of my previous posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18863242&postcount=4). Any spell in a wizard's spellbook that he can cast is a known spell for the wizard.

[Karl Aegis]

Unless you are insisting on that a spell known is not a known spell, look at one of my previous posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18863242&postcount=4). Any spell in a wizard's spellbook that he can cast is a known spell for the wizard.


Yes, RAW the rules are awful. A pale master level is not a wizard level. Spellbook is a different class feature than spells. Sorcerer spells known class feature is under spells. Wizards spells known is not. Pale Master, by RAW, does not advance spellbook.

Wizard does not gain spells known in the same way the sorcerer gains spells known. Wizards spellbook is only progressed by wizard levels. It says so in your previous post.

[Flickerdart]

Advancing wizard spells known (which the pale master does) means scribing 2 new spells into the book, because that's how a wizard's spells known work. The fact that it's not part of the spellcasting feature is irrelevant because it's explicitly called out as a benefit.

[torrasque666]

Advancing wizard spells known (which the pale master does) means scribing 2 new spells into the book, because that's how a wizard's spells known work. The fact that it's not part of the spellcasting feature is irrelevant because it's explicitly called out as a benefit.
Wizard, unlike sorcerer, does not have a "spells known" statistic. A Sorcerer will gain new spells, as that's the only way for it to do so. A Wizard won't though. The increasing spells known is only if applicable, which for a wizard, it is not as they do not have a table/statistic/what have you.

Hell, the Spellbook class feature is separate from the Spells feature, and as Pale Master "does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on)" it can also be argued that it in fact, does not​ gain new spells for a wizard.

[Flickerdart]

Wizard, unlike sorcerer, does not have a "spells known" statistic.
Wizards don't have a Spells Known table. But they unambiguously know spells, as the very definition of "known spell" illustrates. Their advancement for these spells known is clearly mentioned in the class entry - two every time they gain a level. It is not "another benefit" because it's covered under "spells known, if applicable."

[Andezzar]

Have you even read the glossary entry? A known spell, for the wizard, is a spell that he can prepare and cast and that is in his spellbook. Pale Master allows the character (which we assume aslo has wizard levels and uses PM to advance his wizard casting) to acquire more spells known as a wizard does on level up. A wizard scribes two spells into his spellbook on level up. How can this part not be included?

BTW the "if applicable" is for classes like the dread necromancer or warmage. They don't gain new spells known every level, because they already know all spells of that level.