How to Break?

[RogueWizard]

In my experience pathfinder has taken out a lot of cheese that 3.5 provided, but I'm wondering, can it still be broken?

In my campaign I'm allowed to use any core rules in pathfinder (nothing 3rd party) without needing the DMs approval. So basically, are there any OP feats, spells, class abilities, or equipment?

I'm basically looking to collect all the cheese I can and break the game. My DM is encouraging me to try because he wants to see if it can be done as well. Don't worry about ruining my campaign, it's fresh and we'll start another one if I succeed.

Thoughts?

[LTwerewolf]

Pathfinder took out some cheese, but a lot of the old hat cheese is still there.

[RogueWizard]

Pathfinder took out some cheese, but a lot of the old hat cheese is still there.

Yes, I assume Wizard is still the most exploitable classes there is, but I am really looking for specifics here. I already have a few ideas in mind.

[Kraken]

There's a trick involving the spell geyser, the havoc of the society trait, and the dazing spell feat. Geyser, combined with havoc of the society gets you the ability to inflict a single point of force damage to anyone in the spell's radius, no save, no attack roll, no SR. This in turn triggers a will save from dazing spell. Further, if you apply the persistent spell feat (Pathfinder's version is different than 3.5's), the victims are required to pass the will save twice instead of just once (IE, roll 2d20, succeed on both). So essentially, the only way to avoid making the saving throw is to be immune to both fire damage and force damage, or be immune to dazing. Very few things fit those criteria, if any (I'm not aware any, but I also haven't looked). The build I saw once upon a time had jacked the required save DC so high that I believe nobody was able to provide any published monster that would be able to avoid the dazing effect on anything less than rolling 20 on both saving throws. Though it was rightly pointed out that anything with class levels, gear, and spell effects active might be able to resist it, though that's obviously hard to quantify. I'm pretty sure that I saw this build before sacred geometry existed, so it's probably possible to make it even more powerful than it already was, but I'm pretty sure it didn't involve any homebrew.

[Kurald Galain]

In my experience pathfinder has taken out a lot of cheese that 3.5 provided, but I'm wondering, can it still be broken?

It depends on what level you're playing at.

It's common on these forums to see complaints about how unbalanced everything is... but such complaints almost invariably only apply to level 15 and up (e.g. requiring 8th or 9th level spells); whereas most campaigns start at level 1 to 3 and never quite get higher than level 10 anyway.

At low to moderate level, things to watch out for (note that I said "watch out for", not "ban immediately") include:

Summoner
Crossblooded sorcerer archetype
Any dinosaur-themed animal companion
Three or more natural attacks on the same character
Wayang Spell Hunter and Magical Lineage traits
Invulnerable Rager barbarian archetype
Summoner
Aasimar and Nightskulk (skinwalker) race
Any race with a fly speed
Dazing Spell feat and Metamagic Rod of Dazing
Leadership feat
Sacred Geometry feat
Glitterdust spell
Paragon Surge spell
Slumber hex
Summoner


Aside from that, there are some classes that are generally considered very weak (e.g. Monk, Rogue) or that cannot do anything except deal damage in combat (e.g. Fighter, Swashbuckler, Gunslinger). If inter-party balance is your goal, that is something to watch out for.

[Doctor Awkward]

I'd watch out for Witch in general.

It was already mentioned that they come with an at-will save-or-die at level 1 (Slumber, Will save or fall asleep, regardless of what the targets HD is). They also get an at-will Fortitude save-or-die at level 10 (Ice Tomb, save or be paralyzed).

True those hexes are only once per target, but there's a feat you can take right at level 1 that let's you try again the next round.

This is in addition to their 9th level arcane spellcasting.

I mean, overall I suppose they really aren't all that more broken than a wizard... but that's still pretty broken.


I guess it really depends on what you consider cheese. Jason Bulmahn once went off on this huge rant about how rogues were investing in Rings of Blinking around level 10 or so and sneak attacking foes at range. Apparently in his universe, if you do anything but tumble into flanking position to deliver your sneak attacks with a dagger you are being cheesy.
Pathfinder Rogues are now out-damaged by high level evokers. True story.

[M Placeholder]

At low to moderate level, things to watch out for (note that I said "watch out for", not "ban immediately") include:


Any dinosaur-themed animal companion


.

If the dinosaur is a Spinosaurus, ban immediately. A druid with one of those is a game breaker.

[stack]

Sacred geometry probably should be 'ban immediately'. Keep a close eye on dazing spell. It's not bad unless you find unusual spells and/or reduce its cost. Saw a trick once where a wizard shared burning gaze and snapdragon fireworks, both dazing, with his familiar so it could force two saves verses daze per round.

[ericgrau]

There are lots of cheesy tricks, merely fewer than 3.5. I've noticed it has quite a lot of power creep which is a much bigger issue I think. Big cheese only happens on purpose, which is rare and then it is quickly stamped out with the ban hammer. More subtle power creep makes it much easier to break by accident and makes it harder to set boundaries. Also creates a harder learning curve to keep up. Inexperienced players can feel left out that much more easily. But it can still be kept in check so it's not too bad.

[Psyren]

It depends on what level you're playing at.

It's common on these forums to see complaints about how unbalanced everything is... but such complaints almost invariably only apply to level 15 and up (e.g. requiring 8th or 9th level spells); whereas most campaigns start at level 1 to 3 and never quite get higher than level 10 anyway.

At low to moderate level, things to watch out for (note that I said "watch out for", not "ban immediately") include:

Summoner
Crossblooded sorcerer archetype
Any dinosaur-themed animal companion
Three or more natural attacks on the same character
Wayang Spell Hunter and Magical Lineage traits
Summoner
Dazing Spell feat and Metamagic Rod of Dazing
Leadership feat
Sacred Geometry feat
Glitterdust spell
Paragon Surge spell
Slumber hex
Summoner


Aside from that, there are some classes that are generally considered very weak (e.g. Monk, Rogue) or that cannot do anything except deal damage in combat (e.g. Fighter, Swashbuckler, Gunslinger). If inter-party balance is your goal, that is something to watch out for.

Did you remember to mention Summoner? :smalltongue:

Paragon Surge is actually much more reasonable now. Powerful and useful but not much of a problem anymore.

[IZ42]

Also, Synthesist isn't broken compared to base Summoner or Master Summoner. But it will still blow a fighter out of the water, so be careful about summoner, yeah.

[atemu1234]

Also, Synthesist isn't broken compared to base Summoner or Master Summoner. But it will still blow a fighter out of the water, so be careful about summoner, yeah.

But basically everything blows the fighter out of the water. I think we could actually use kilofighters as a viable unit of measurement.

[(Un)Inspired]

Unlimited Wish-chaining planar binding Efreet nobles totally still works.

It's hard to get more broken than unlimited free wishes.

[atemu1234]

Unlimited Wish-chaining planar binding Efreet nobles totally still works.

It's hard to get more broken than unlimited free wishes.

Well, as much as I agree, I usually like to Jackass Genie it up a bit.

[CGNefarious]

Well, as much as I agree, I usually like to Jackass Genie it up a bit.

There's a trait to help prevent that.

[Psyren]

Unlimited Wish-chaining planar binding Efreet nobles totally still works.

It's hard to get more broken than unlimited free wishes.

GameMastery Guide encourages those wishes to be twisted though. "Evil outsiders in particular are loath to grant wishes that don't serve evil ends, and take every opportunity to twist them toward harm and suffering. A wish for eternal life may leave the wisher imprisoned in a decrepit yet still undying body. A wish for a powerful magic item can be granted by stealing the item from a powerful and vengeful lord. Wishes are best turned awry by adhering closely to the letter of the wish, but violating the spirit."

In addition, wishes can be fulfilled over time, keeping even a reasonable wish from breaking the campaign because the effects will be so subtle. "Rather than denying a particularly powerful wish, such as for the throne of a kingdom, the wish can be granted over an extended period. The wish subtly reshapes reality, guiding the wisher through seeming coincidence, good fortune, and the timely appearance of helpful NPCs. Success is not assured unless the PC takes advantage of her opportunities."

And finally, PF Wish removed the most broken use from 3.5 wish, i.e. creating magic items from thin air. So you can no longer wish for your 10,000CL scroll of Holy Word to nuke Asmodeus with or whatever. You can still wish for items, but that automatically falls outside of the bounds of safety now.

[Zanos]

There's a trait to help prevent that.
I would be interested in such a thing.

And as others have mentioned, Summoner doesn't have the "raw power" of a wizard, but they basically gave the summoner nearly full arcane casting and then lied about it. Many of their lower level spells are actually just higher level spells, such as 2nd level haste, 3rd level stoneskin, 4th level teleport, etc. Then they bolted a companion onto them that can spend 1 point to get a feature that normally requires you be a raging 10th level barbarian, lets you abuse the hell out of primary natural attacks, and generally not give a crap about the fact that your party contains other people who would like to play the game. As a bonus, you can build the companion to invalidate skill-monkies too, if you really want to.

[Hamste]

Thoughtful wish maker. It requires you to be from the plane of fire but there are probably ways around that. DC 25 sense motive check to know of the pitfalls of a wish. DC 30 sense motive to think of a wording that cannot be misinterpreted.You also gain +2 on sense motive checks

[Kurald Galain]

Thoughtful wish maker. It requires you to be from the plane of fire but there are probably ways around that.

It's kind of funny though that somebody takes a trait at first level that doesn't do anything until level 17.

[Kudaku]

There's always Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits) or retraining. Makes sense actually - level 17 wizard can spend time and money researching how to pull off a safe wish by retraining a trait or a feat.

[Kurald Galain]

There's always Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits) or retraining. Makes sense actually - level 17 wizard can spend time and money researching how to pull off a safe wish by retraining a trait or a feat.

You can't retrain traits, though.

[Flickerdart]

DC 30 sense motive to think of a wording that cannot be misinterpreted.
Partial fulfillment is a witch. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Even if your wording isn't twisted, there's still a lot that can go wrong. "Be careful what you wish for - you might get it."

[(Un)Inspired]

It's kind of funny though that somebody takes a trait at first level that doesn't do anything until level 17.

There's no need to wait till 17 to start making wishes.

[Zanos]

You can't retrain traits, though.
You could retrain a feat into Extra Traits, however, or retrain an existing Extra Traits into that instead.

Even if your wording isn't twisted, there's still a lot that can go wrong. "Be careful what you wish for - you might get it."
As long as you stay on the list of legal effects, that traits should keep you safe. I'd take a trait that gave me(more or less) a +5 inherent bonus to all my stats very cheap quite a few levels early.

[Psyren]

You could retrain a feat into Extra Traits, however, or retrain an existing Extra Traits into that instead.

As long as you stay on the list of legal effects, that traits should keep you safe. I'd take a trait that gave me(more or less) a +5 inherent bonus to all my stats very cheap quite a few levels early.

Even you wish for something totally safe and the entity is prevented from screwing you over, nothing forces the spell to grant it right away. The "Deferred Results" clause can cause a long series of coincidences to lead you, quite safely, to a set of Manuals of Bodily Exercise (for example), and have it take so long to do so that you don't in fact gain the bonuses any earlier than the campaign would have given them to you normally. You might in fact be level 17 by the time you find them all.

[(Un)Inspired]

Even you wish for something totally safe and the entity is prevented from screwing you over, nothing forces the spell to grant it right away. The "Deferred Results" clause can cause a long series of coincidences to lead you, quite safely, to a set of Manuals of Bodily Exercise (for example), and have it take so long to do so that you don't in fact gain the bonuses any earlier than the campaign would have given them to you normally. You might in fact be level 17 by the time you find them all.

What if you have the no twisting trait and specify a date and time as part of your wish?

[Almarck]

What if you have the no twisting trait and specify a date and time as part of your wish?

Then time travel happens transporting ypu tp the time and date if you're late, or you're sent back far back in the past bdfore you can receive it
Alternatively the day might just never come because of a ground hog loop or the sun refusing to set.

[Psyren]

What if you have the no twisting trait and specify a date and time as part of your wish?

Specifying a date and time is not part of the safe effects, so could result in partial fulfillment (simply dropping that specification from your request and fulfilling the rest.)

[(Un)Inspired]

Specifying a date and time is not part of the safe effects, so could result in partial fulfillment (simply dropping that specification from your request and fulfilling the rest.)

Hmmm good catch.

[Zanos]

Even you wish for something totally safe and the entity is prevented from screwing you over, nothing forces the spell to grant it right away. The "Deferred Results" clause can cause a long series of coincidences to lead you, quite safely, to a set of Manuals of Bodily Exercise (for example), and have it take so long to do so that you don't in fact gain the bonuses any earlier than the campaign would have given them to you normally. You might in fact be level 17 by the time you find them all.
Altering someone's intent of a wish after they specifically make a check to not have their wording twisted seems disingenuous to me, especially in that circumstance, since granting an inherent bonus directly with a wish is specifically allowed, while creating magic items(or leading people to them) is not.

I suppose we are talking about people who are trying to get free wishes from devil genies though, so eh.

[Anlashok]

Don't think I buy it psyren. The check makes it so your wish can't be twisted and changing the date or time is, by definition, twisting the wish.

[deuxhero]

Most of the core cheese is still in PF and Pathfinder has its own cheese. Nothing as flashy as 3.5's TO builds got (yet), but plenty of broken stuff.

Razmiran Priest makes the Sorcerer a tier 0 class, able to spontaneously cast any divine spell from any class as needed, plus full sorcerer casting.

[squiggit]

Most PF cheese is low or medium end by 3.5 standards. SoDs that are hard to shake and strong BFC but there's nothing approaching the literally infinite power that TO 3.5 has.

[Psyren]

Don't think I buy it psyren. The check makes it so your wish can't be twisted and changing the date or time is, by definition, twisting the wish.

Partial fulfillment is not twisting.

Granting wishes gradually is explicitly allowed in Pathfinder (GMG 116.) That is not twisting either, because nothing in the Wish spell states you have control of exactly when the benefit is granted. Thus it is you, the wisher, attempting to add things to the spell that are not there - not the entity.


Most of the core cheese is still in PF and Pathfinder has its own cheese. Nothing as flashy as 3.5's TO builds got (yet), but plenty of broken stuff.

Razmiran Priest makes the Sorcerer a tier 0 class, able to spontaneously cast any divine spell from any class as needed, plus full sorcerer casting.

Razmiran Priest does not give you the whole cleric list - you can simply use cleric items (scrolls/wands/staves) without needing UMD. You still need the items in question to make use of this ability. On top of which, gaining this ability costs you 3 caster levels and thus access to 9ths.

[Kurald Galain]

Razmiran Priest makes the Sorcerer a tier 0 class, able to spontaneously cast any divine spell from any class as needed, plus full sorcerer casting.

Not quite "as needed" though. It has to be lower than his maximum spell level and he has to have a scroll of the spell on hand. Still powerful, sure, but it's no Rainbow Warsnake, and really only a problem at top levels.

(e.g. a level 11 Razmiran Priest can cast level 4 cleric or druid spells, which is nice but hardly game-breaking, and doing so limits his ability to cast level 5 sorcerer spells, since they use the same slots)




It's common on these forums to see complaints about how unbalanced everything is... but such complaints almost invariably only apply to level 15 and up (e.g. requiring 8th or 9th level spells); whereas most campaigns start at level 1 to 3 and never quite get higher than level 10 anyway.

(edit) Psyren, he's probably referring to the sorcerer archetype "Razmiran Priest", which is different from the paragon path "Razmiran Priest".

[Hamste]

To umd a scroll you just need a high enough ability score and to get 20+cl on the umd check. Forget that prc all together and just buff up your umd for false priest.

[Psyren]

(edit) Psyren, he's probably referring to the sorcerer archetype "Razmiran Priest", which is different from the paragon path "Razmiran Priest".

You mean this guy? (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/classes/base-classes/sorcerer/razmiran-priest) Yeah, he still needs the item in question and has to burn higher level slots to power it. It's a nice way to make a scroll last though.

[deuxhero]

You mean this guy? (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/classes/base-classes/sorcerer/razmiran-priest) Yeah, he still needs the item in question and has to burn higher level slots to power it. It's a nice way to make a scroll last though.

When's the last time someone said Wizard or Archivist wasn't tier 1 because "You still need a spellbook to make use of spells"?

Between Paladin, Anti-Paladin, Inquisitor, Ranger, Druid, Adept, Cleric, any spell those get from archetypes, Domains and Subdomains (not to mention any divine scrolls of discounted arcane spells that were somehow gotten on list by a divine caster) the higher level thing won't matter because lots of spells will be at a discounted level in the first place

[Kurald Galain]

Between Paladin, Anti-Paladin, Inquisitor, Ranger, Druid, Adept, Cleric, any spell those get from archetypes, Domains and Subdomains (not to mention any divine scrolls of discounted arcane spells that were somehow gotten on list by a divine caster) the higher level thing won't matter because lots of spells will be at a discounted level in the first place

Why on earth would you use a special ability that allows you to cast divine spells for the purpose of casting arcane spells? You're a sorcerer, you can already cast arcane spells.

[(Un)Inspired]

You mean this guy? (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/classes/base-classes/sorcerer/razmiran-priest) Yeah, he still needs the item in question and has to burn higher level slots to power it. It's a nice way to make a scroll last though.

How have I missed this archetype? Scrolls are cheap! A sorcerer can just stock up on loads of useful divine spells.

It's like having an archivist that can cast from spell books spontaneously at the cost of not being able to cast your maximum level spells.

[deuxhero]

Summoner, Bloodrager, Magus, Bard and Witch list have plenty of spells not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, some of which can be worth ~a thousand GP to know. Plus the limited spells known thing.

[stack]

Is there a way to use your caster level & stat mod for the scroll? Otherwise it is still a great ability, but spells with saves or that scale significantly with caster level will be weak.

[Kurald Galain]

Summoner, Bloodrager, Magus, Bard and Witch list have plenty of spells not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, some of which can be worth ~a thousand GP to know. Plus the limited spells known thing.

Sure, but there's already items that let you do that (e.g. ring of Spell Knowledge, page of Spell Knowledge, and some Ioun Stones).

Don't get me wrong, it's a good ability. It's just not gamebreaking (at least, not more than a wizard would be), and it doesn't propel the sorcerer to the non-existent "tier zero", and it really only affects the game at high level (and the OP mentioned a "fresh campaign" so it probably isn't all that high yet).

[Psyren]

How have I missed this archetype? Scrolls are cheap! A sorcerer can just stock up on loads of useful divine spells.

It's like having an archivist that can cast from spell books spontaneously at the cost of not being able to cast your maximum level spells.


When's the last time someone said Wizard or Archivist wasn't tier 1 because "You still need a spellbook to make use of spells"?

You don't need magic-mart to get a spellbook, that's why.

(Also, the DC/CL thing.)

[squiggit]

At low levels I think the things to watch out for are strix/syrinx (an to a lesser extent wyvaran) because permanently free flight is powerful at a level where the game expects everyone to be grounded. Nightskulks. Witches stand out because slumber is easy and powerful but there's a few good spells too.

[Kurald Galain]

At low levels I think the things to watch out for are strix/syrinx (an to a lesser extent wyvaran) because permanently free flight is powerful at a level where the game expects everyone to be grounded. Nightskulks.

Fair point. I would reword this as "certain races are much more powerful than others, in particular Aasimar and anything with a fly speed".

I'm not familiar with nightskulks, what's so bad about those?

[Psyren]

I'm not familiar with nightskulks, what's so bad about those?

Their Distraction ability lets them chain-nauseate targets, denying all their actions and forcing multiple fort saves per round. This was likely intended to only trigger from their bite, or perhaps from any other natural attacks/unarmed strikes they possess, but as written they can trigger it with anything, including ranged attacks and spells.

[Squirrel_Dude]

The summoner is less broken and more the largest time-sink in the entire game. Nothing can grind a game to a halt like lots of summoned creatures, or having an eidolon rolling more attacks in one turn that the entire enemy force combined.

It might just be selection bias, but Pathfinder seems rife with classes that have abilities that are extremely powerful against single targets. Witches with their slumber hex are obviously power, but smiting paladins and pouncing barbarians and eidolons can also be powerful. Don't run single-monster encounters. They don't work.

[Kurald Galain]

It might just be selection bias, but Pathfinder seems rife with classes that have abilities that are extremely powerful against single targets. Witches with their slumber hex are obviously power, but smiting paladins and pouncing barbarians and eidolons can also be powerful. Don't run single-monster encounters. They don't work.

This, oh so very much. Even aside of all those powerful single-target abilities, a single monster against a five-person party is doomed by action economy alone.

Unfortunately, most printed adventures in PF that I've seen seem to assume that party-vs-one-monster is the default, leading to some pretty boring combats.

[atemu1234]

This, oh so very much. Even aside of all those powerful single-target abilities, a single monster against a five-person party is doomed by action economy alone.

Unfortunately, most printed adventures in PF that I've seen seem to assume that party-vs-one-monster is the default, leading to some pretty boring combats.

Which is also partly true in 3.5, which is why I made Faerie Mystery Initiate (Passion) standard for NPCs with lots of intelligence. Because hit points are fun.

[avr]

Dazing spell is nice enough. Dazing spell on a spell which does damage over time is probably too good.

Necromancy is the best minionmancy. With a juju oracle especially.

Monsters as characters, in an overreaction to 3.x's awful racial HD & LA, are now absurdly good. CR=effective level can give you spellcasting at a level or two higher than your effective character level, with racial abilities which can be a lot better than the other class abilities you miss out on.

The False Focus feat, for when you only ever want to pay the cost of material components once. Or the Blood Money spell (possibly combined with Magic Jar and a giant) for when you don't feel like paying that cost at all.

[Gemini476]

Blood Money+Fabricate is also pretty fun if you want lots of cash. If you can find some reasonable DCs you might be able to make gems with it as well, I suppose, so you can stockpile those free Wishes.


Sacred Geometry has been mentioned here before, and with good reason - not only does it bog the game down, but it's also pretty much free metamagic. Literally - not only does it give you two free metamagic feats, it lets you add free metamagic to spells up to the maximum level you can cast. Don't worry about the bog-down-your-game math, actually - there's mathematical proofs out there that show how you can be 100% guaranteed to use it successfully with minimal investment in skill ranks.


Throwing Shields are just completely broken. Who on earth approved the sentence "you can throw the shield as a free action"? It's not that bad in isolation, but once you add in stuff like Quickdraw Shields or (god forbid) a Blinkback Belt... Once you get to that point, the only thing that can stand against you is something with enough damage resistance that a critical hit won't hurt it. You know, because you'll literally be making infinite attacks.
And no, imposing a limit on free actions doesn't help that much because of everything else that can be done as a free action. Drawing an arrow is a free action, for instance, as is speaking. I sure hope you're giving people enough free actions to Manyshot with bows, at least, or for a Monk/Ninja to throw their shuriken. (That's at least seven free actions for the Hasted Fighter 16 with Manyshot, by the way, while the Monk 15/Ninja 2 with Rapid Shot is drawing ten shuriken in their Flurry of Blows+Stars. Without buffs.)
So let's say that you put an entirely reasonable limit of eleven or so three actions. Neat. Now the TWF Fighter is only making five shield throws per turn in addition to his standard full attack routine.
Personally I'd recommend just rewriting the Throwing Shield quality to something more reasonable, like limiting it to one free attack/turn or something.


Speaking of monk/ninja making ten ranged attacks per turn unbuffed, the whole drug dealer build is still pretty broken. Slather some Opium (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs/opium) on those stars and each one does 1d4 Con and Wis damage on a hit, no save. Or, well, there is a save but that's just to avoid getting addicted and suffering additional penalties.


Spells in PF are still as broken as ever, although they're slightly less so than in 3E (I'd also reckon that they're more so than 2E). Speak with Dead has been ruining murder mysteries since it was introduced back in either Basic or AD&D, Raise Dead not only heralds the end of death mattering to your party but also makes assassinations tricky to work plot-wise, Teleport makes the game shift away from travel and random encounters and brings the entire world closer, Teleportation Circle lets you move an entire army very far very fast, Permanent teleportation circles wave at you and whisper seductively about the Tippyverse and centralization and trade opportunities, Simulacrum still breaks games in half (giving a 13th-level Wizard the chance to make a subservient 10th-level copy of the 20th level Archmage is bad enough), various flight spells and effects make the existence of vaguely medieval castle walls and whatnot somewhat puzzling, Summon Monster may have been nerfed but it still gives you a big advantage in action economy, save-or-lose spells are still a thing...

For some new spells that are kind of broke, Create Pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit)and Emergency Force Sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere)are both pretty fun. Also, Skinsend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/skinsend) and Shadow Projection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-projection)are both Astral Projection-lite.

[Psyren]

People often call out Teleport as a campaign-ender but I fail to see why. The oft-overlooked clause from 3.5 (which made it to PF) - "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible" - is literally all you need to rein it in. Which BBEG worth his salt does not plant his doom fortress under a volcano, behind a waterfall, or around the extremely powerful macguffin artifact? You don't even need magic. I'd welcome the PCs attempting to teleport there, they would be in for a very plot-juicy surprise.

Even Greater Teleport only guarantees you "don't arrive off-target" - "hazards" are still possible, as well as simply not teleporting at all. (You didn't "arrive off-target" if you didn't go anywhere to begin with.)

Also Simulacrum - the GM has to build whatever you try to make from the ground up, and decide what abilities it gets. Can a half-HD efreet grant wishes for instance? Maybe it can, maybe it can't, but it is not up to the player either way.

[Gemini476]

Teleport isn't necessarily a campaign-ender, but it's definitely a campaign-changer. It's no coincidence that in Basic/Expert it showed up at level 9, when the focus shifted away from hexcrawling (also the level you get access to resurrection magic and XP flattened out, and that's not by coincidence).
It's safe. You stop needing to worry about getting lost or ambushed or attacked in the middle of the night, and start being able to just teleport back home when things get a bit too hairy. You don't need to travel from Point A to Point B any more - you just teleport.
It makes everything that much closer. Before an army might be able to attack the capital and it would take weeks if not months to travel there by horse, but suddenly the party can just pop over there and assist.
Stranded on a deserted island? Not any more you aren't. Trapped inside a village by weather, Groundhog Day-style? Nope, teleport. Forced to enter a cave/dungeon to take shelter as night comes? Take a wild guess.

Being able to teleport straight into the final room of the dungeon and scry-and-die is probably why most people complain about it (and such uses can easily be cut off by that "magical energy" clause), but it also cuts out everything before you get to the dungeon as well. You can teleport straight from your bedroom to the villain's metaphorical porch, so to speak.


Simulacrum, meanwhile, is extremely powerful since it allows you to get permanent servants with an equal or greater hit die to your own for a relatively small cost. Seriously, having a limit of twice your caster level in hit dice (which is then halved)? Who thinks that is balanced? Use it on people with class levels if you're unsure about how the abilities would work out - beyond the obvious use of getting a half-level copy of yourself (in which case the 4th-level Lesser Simulacrum is perhaps more useful), target someone twice your level and you'll get a Simulacrum nearly as strong as you are. Good targets include your current BBEG, the local Level 20+ Archwizard, and anything that has useful abilities that would carry over to the Simulacra like being a beefy wall of meat.

If you absolutely need to target a monster with lots of racial hit dice, make sure it's an advanced one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement)to save everyone a headache.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Yeah, as with 3.5, there are certain spells in Pathfinder that can ruin a style of adventure if the GM isn't fully aware of them and can then rationalize the NPCs having counters to them. As mentioned by Gemini, teleport practically removes travel from the game. The random encounters of travel, and travel as a obstacle are basically removed.

Commune and spells like it are also problematic because they can outright eliminate mystery plots from the game.

[Flickerdart]

Commune and spells like it are also problematic because they can outright eliminate mystery plots from the game.
"Someone ganked the mayor" is a 1st level plot. By the time Commune becomes available you're looking at mysteries like "why is the universe slowly turning into a duck" which not even deities might know the answer to.

[Psyren]

I question the extent to which travel should be a hazard at mid-high/high levels. Yeah you miss random encounters, but so what? You're at levels where you're saving the continent, world of multiverse - getting jumped by 3d4 owlbears at that point is a little irrelevant. And yes, you can teleport to the BBEG's porch, but that can be just as dangerous as walking there would have been anyway. If you want to squeeze more encounters into a given story arc, there are many other ways to do that - have the dungeon be the real danger, have its depths be extremely labyrinthine and require the PCs to set up camp partway through, have part of it involve diverting to another plane or pocket dimension in order to progress, or simply have Your Princess Be In Another Castle where they 'ported to the wrong place to begin with or the BBEG caught wind of them and skipped out. And with the physical and magical energy clause, they may not even be able to teleport out once they get inside, or you could dimensionally lock everything if you're really cheeky about it.

[Beowulf DW]

But basically everything blows the fighter out of the water. I think we could actually use kilofighters as a viable unit of measurement.

In that case, I'd say that cleric, druid and summoner are worth several kilofighters each. Cleric is still cleric (Pro tip: Dwarf cleric with Travel Domain and Heavy Armor Proficiency can move at 30 feet per round in Full Plate) and can easily manage front-line work, or be the tankiest tank that ever tanked depending on which spells you like.

Druid got nerfed, but only slightly. Basically, you can be a combat druid with some casting, or you can be a casting druid with some combat, and then you still get your animal companion. Focus is the key word here. Druid can no longer have his cake and eat it, too, but he still brings more to the table than any other class save (arguably) the summoner.

The summoner can be deceptive. Don't let that chart fool you; summoner's spell list allows him access to spells at lower spell levels than other classes. He also gets all the Summon Monster spells as SLAs. And then of course there's the eidolon, which is probably more powerful than the druid's animal companion will ever be, and it can even act as a skill monkey, depending on how you customize it.

Using an eye for even minimal optimization with these classes will cause you to shine. Put in even a moderate amount of effort, and they will start to feel broken.

[masterjoda99]

Sacred Geometry has been mentioned here before, and with good reason - not only does it bog the game down, but it's also pretty much free metamagic. Literally - not only does it give you two free metamagic feats, it lets you add free metamagic to spells up to the maximum level you can cast. Don't worry about the bog-down-your-game math, actually - there's mathematical proofs out there that show how you can be 100% guaranteed to use it successfully with minimal investment in skill ranks.




Do you have a link to said mathematical proofs?

[grarrrg]

And no, imposing a limit on free actions doesn't help that much because of everything else that can be done as a free action. Drawing an arrow is a free action, for instance

Drawing an Arrow (in order to shoot it) is actually a "non-action", and is done automatically as part of any action that fires a bow.

As for the Throwing Shield, I think the intent was that you could Unstrap it and be _ready_ to throw it as a Free Action, but it still takes one of your normal attacks to actually do so.


Do you have a link to said mathematical proofs?

Linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17889602&postcount=131)

Basically, as long as you keep the relevant Knowledge Skill with max ranks, you are _mostly_ safe to use it like crazy starting around level 5.
For a 5th level Wizard, bumping a spell up to 3rd level has a 98.8% success rate, and it only improves from there.
13th level is when you have guaranteed 100% success for any spell level you can cast.

[Abd al-Azrad]

If I understand the rules correctly, an Alchemist with the Poison Conversion (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/poison-conversion) Discovery can brew up an arbitrarily large number of doses of any poison, convert them all to Inhaled poisons, stick them in a glass bottle and chuck them at people (with their +1 attack bonus for Improved Throw Anything) for instant hilarity.

As an example, let's say I wanted a certain instant KO. I could brew up a hundred doses of Drow Poison at 25gp per dose (so 2,500gp is the cost of this attack). I convert them all to Inhaled poisons, because as an Inhaled poison, multiple simultaneous exposures each increase the DC of the Fortitude save by +2 (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering/afflictions/poison). Then I chuck that at a foe who is sadly not immune to poisoning, forcing a Fortitude save, DC 213, versus unconsciousness for one minute.

[grarrrg]

If I understand the rules correctly, an Alchemist with the Poison Conversion (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/poison-conversion) Discovery can brew up an arbitrarily large number of doses of any poison, convert them all to Inhaled poisons, stick them in a glass bottle and chuck them at people (with their +1 attack bonus for Improved Throw Anything) for instant hilarity.

As an example, let's say I wanted a certain instant KO. I could brew up a hundred doses of Drow Poison at 25gp per dose (so 2,500gp is the cost of this attack). I convert them all to Inhaled poisons, because as an Inhaled poison, multiple simultaneous exposures each increase the DC of the Fortitude save by +2 (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering/afflictions/poison). Then I chuck that at a foe who is sadly not immune to poisoning, forcing a Fortitude save, DC 213, versus unconsciousness for one minute.

Yes and no.
Pretty sure each dose of Poison requires its own container, and subsequent action to "use". In this case 'chuck the bottle it breaks'. You'd have to chuck multiple bottles, which is multiple actions.

Creatures can attempt to hold their breath while in the exposed area. There's a good chance that they'll make their 'hold breath' roll for a round or two, but sooner than later they will still breathe.

The increase in DC only applies to the recurring 'frequency' saves, and not to the initial 'exposure' save. Granted, if you did manage to get 100 simultaneous exposures they would have to make a DC 13 save 100 times, so they are likely to fail a good number of them.

[Mithril Leaf]

If I understand the rules correctly, an Alchemist with the Poison Conversion (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/poison-conversion) Discovery can brew up an arbitrarily large number of doses of any poison, convert them all to Inhaled poisons, stick them in a glass bottle and chuck them at people (with their +1 attack bonus for Improved Throw Anything) for instant hilarity.

As an example, let's say I wanted a certain instant KO. I could brew up a hundred doses of Drow Poison at 25gp per dose (so 2,500gp is the cost of this attack). I convert them all to Inhaled poisons, because as an Inhaled poison, multiple simultaneous exposures each increase the DC of the Fortitude save by +2 (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering/afflictions/poison). Then I chuck that at a foe who is sadly not immune to poisoning, forcing a Fortitude save, DC 213, versus unconsciousness for one minute.

You're better off making it contact poison and dumping it on them with a bucket.

[Psyren]

If I understand the rules correctly, an Alchemist with the Poison Conversion (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/poison-conversion) Discovery can brew up an arbitrarily large number of doses of any poison, convert them all to Inhaled poisons, stick them in a glass bottle and chuck them at people (with their +1 attack bonus for Improved Throw Anything) for instant hilarity.

As an example, let's say I wanted a certain instant KO. I could brew up a hundred doses of Drow Poison at 25gp per dose (so 2,500gp is the cost of this attack). I convert them all to Inhaled poisons, because as an Inhaled poison, multiple simultaneous exposures each increase the DC of the Fortitude save by +2 (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering/afflictions/poison). Then I chuck that at a foe who is sadly not immune to poisoning, forcing a Fortitude save, DC 213, versus unconsciousness for one minute.

It's not "simultaneous" - you must expose them to subsequent doses of the poison while they are already poisoned (i.e. failed their initial save.) You cannot "pre-concentrate" poison before exposing a target to it - you must concentrate it inside their system. As grarrg noted, this will require multiple delivery mechanisms (bottles + attacks) and likely multiple actions from you.

"if there is still poison active in you when you are attacked with that type of poison again, and you fail your initial save against the new dose, the doses stack."

[atemu1234]

It's not "simultaneous" - you must expose them to subsequent doses of the poison while they are already poisoned (i.e. failed their initial save.) You cannot "pre-concentrate" poison before exposing a target to it - you must concentrate it inside their system. As grarrg noted, this will require multiple delivery mechanisms (bottles + attacks) and likely multiple actions from you.

"if there is still poison active in you when you are attacked with that type of poison again, and you fail your initial save against the new dose, the doses stack."

Play an Alchemist with a Summoner in the party. On my mark, fire!

[Kurald Galain]

Teleport isn't necessarily a campaign-ender, but it's definitely a campaign-changer. It's no coincidence that in Basic/Expert it showed up at level 9, when the focus shifted away from hexcrawling (also the level you get access to resurrection magic and XP flattened out, and that's not by coincidence).

Precisely. This is very much by design, and working as intended.

1E/2E/3E are built on the assumption that a campaign style changes as you level up. 4E/5E are built on the assumption that it doesn't. There's nothing wrong with either assumption, but applying logic from one side to the other is going to cause a clash. If you want to play 1E/2E/3E without substantial style changes, you'll have to consider which levels to start and end your campaign at.

[Gemini476]

Precisely. This is very much by design, and working as intended.

1E/2E/3E are built on the assumption that a campaign style changes as you level up. 4E/5E are built on the assumption that it doesn't. There's nothing wrong with either assumption, but applying logic from one side to the other is going to cause a clash. If you want to play 1E/2E/3E without substantial style changes, you'll have to consider which levels to start and end your campaign at.

Oh, 4E and 5E most definitely assume that it changes. That's why you have the whole Heroic/Paragon/Epic split (which nicely echoes the old Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal) and IIRC 5E had something similar as well.

Ever since 2E it's been a lot more normalized, though. Back in AD&D and BECMI you had some serious changes, going from dungeoncrawling to hexcrawling to kingdom building to planar exploration to godhood - these days you mostly just have the dungeoncrawl, maybe some hexcrawling if you're in 5E and have a rather traditional DM. Or if you're playing Kingmaker.
That is, if you have dungeoncrawls at all. 3E was trying to go "back to basics" and bring back the dungeoncrawl after 2E mostly abandoned it for more narrative games and metaplot, but it's hardly the only thing people use the system for. (Pathfinder is bringing that back, to some degree, while AFAIK 3E, 4E and 5E mostly stick to crawls.)


The reason that spells like Teleport and such are broken isn't because they break the game - it's because they change the game, and the game is bad at telling GMs that. The same goes for a lot of spells that break the game, actually - they're not that broken if the GM is prepared for them and takes them into account when designing the adventure, but when they aren't? That's when you get horror stories of scry-and-die and the Wizard upstaging the Fighter by one-shot Save-or-Dieing the big bad Dragon. Or stuff like setting the PCs up against the CLIFFS OF INSANITY and having the Wizard just Spiderclimb/Fly everyone to the top. Or having the Emperor by assassinated and the party Cleric just cast Raise Dead on his body while the Wizard divines whodunnit.
(The whole "why don't they just resurrect the king?" problem comes earlier than 9th level as well, since if you ever give the PCs some way to resurrect a dead party member by paying a lot of cash to the local Cleric... Thinaun helps, but it's a solution that came after the problem.)

There's also some problems with how sometimes the game itself doesn't realize that they've changed the game, like how the Tarrasque is a total joke if you're capable of flying. After a certain level it's only really threatening if it's inside a confined space, like a dungeon or something. Hmmmmm.

Paizo fixed some of those issues, but they've still got a bunch of ones that they don't quite realize themselves. Like how boss fights where the boss is outnumbered 4-to-1 just don't work.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, 4E and 5E most definitely assume that it changes. That's why you have the whole Heroic/Paragon/Epic split (which nicely echoes the old Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal) and IIRC 5E had something similar as well.
No, they don't. They assume the descriptions change, but the gameplay doesn't. That's an important distinction.


The reason that spells like Teleport and such are broken isn't because they break the game - it's because they change the game, and the game is bad at telling GMs that. The same goes for a lot of spells that break the game, actually - they're not that broken if the GM is prepared for them and takes them into account when designing the adventure, but when they aren't?
When they aren't, then you get bad advice like "just ban it" or "don't play at that level" or even newly designed campaign worlds or spinoff games where the mechanic doesn't exist. Basically, when some DMs don't know how to deal with a particular mechanic, some game designers will simply remove or severely limit the mechanic, instead of educating the DMs on how to deal with it.

[Nibbens]

I recently posted this one to the rules forum, but from the wording of the ability "merciful (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html#weapons-merciful)" all damage dealt with a weapon is nonlethal. Combine this on an earthbreaker, and several other weapon enchants: viscous (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/weaponSpecialAbilities.html), Shocking (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/weaponSpecialAbilities.html), flaming, frost, corrosive... You can get the damage up to 9d6 nonlethal damage per attack.
Now, add this on a rogue - take sap master (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#sap-master) and of course, sap adept (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#sap-adept)

So, a tenth level rogue (provided he had enough money to max out the weapon enchantments) on a sneak attack deals 9d6= str+1/2 mod nonlethal weapon damage + 10d6+20 nonlethal sneak damage... that's an average of 86.5 nonlethal sneak damage per attack (before str mod shenanigans)

According to the monster creation guidelines (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html) the average HP of a CR10 creature should be around 130.

So within the two attacks that a level ten rogue gets per round - say goodnight to anything the rogue sneak attacks.

Next round - the same rogue can suppress the merciful enchantment for a coup de grace (or another member in the party can, while the rogue goes to slammer hammer another hapless CR10 creature in a single round. G'night.

[Vhaidara]

So, if the Rogue is able to do his job (high amounts of damage from stealth) he can two shot most level appropriate enemies? In a game about one-shotting level appropriate enemies? When he has a +7 equivalent weapon? Assuming the enemy is vulnerable to non-lethal damage (say hello to half the creature types in the game)?

No, that isn't a problem at all.

[Nibbens]

In a game about one-shotting level appropriate enemies?

Is this really the case?

Besides, I'm not saying its the greatest - but 19d6+20 damage at level ten is nothing to scoff at - considering a wizard might pull of 20d6 at level ten with metamagics and expending two spells? So what if it doesn't work all the time. In the situations it doesn't - switch the merciful enchantment off and you've still got a 8d6 weapon and 5d6 sneak - along with all but two of your feats. That's all you expend to get this - two feats (and the outrageous sum of money). lol.

Gotta think laterally, not linerally - be well rounded.

[Vhaidara]

Is this really the case?

Have you not heard of the rocket tag that is 3.5/PF?


Besides, I'm not saying its the greatest - but 19d6+20 damage at level ten is nothing to scoff at - considering a wizard might pull of 20d6 at level ten with metamagics and expending two spells? So what if it doesn't work all the time. In the situations it doesn't - switch the merciful enchantment off and you've still got a 8d6 weapon and 5d6 sneak - along with all but two of your feats. That's all you expend to get this - two feats (and the outrageous sum of money). lol.

I'm not sure you realize how outrageous. At level 12, you could afford this, but it would be more than half your WBL (and therefore illegal as an option). That weapon wouldn't be legal until level 15. And this assumes you can get Sneak Attack off on your enemies.

[avr]

If you want to deal unreasonable amounts of damage, you want to be a vivisectionist alchemist TWF'ing double-barrelled pistols, with a tentacle for reloading purposes and greater invisibility. Probably more specialised than your sap master due to the required feats but also more damaging, and you don't require the worlds most expensive sock filled with sand to pull it off.

[Nibbens]

Have you not heard of the rocket tag that is 3.5/PF?

Absolutely! However, I don't believe in it. The rocket tag phenomenon is a creation of poor encounter design.


I'm not sure you realize how outrageous. At level 12, you could afford this, but it would be more than half your WBL (and therefore illegal as an option). That weapon wouldn't be legal until level 15.

Okay, while this is true - these enchantments are removable/addable to my equation as WBL catches up and not a necessary factor. The only three necessary things - Sap adept, Sap master, and a Merciful +1 weapon - everything else is negate able. Also, the Deliquescent gloves (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/wondrousItems/hands.html#deliquescent-gloves)become cheaper than adding another ability to the weapon past when your weapon becomes a +3 item.


And this assumes you can get Sneak Attack off on your enemies.

We're also making the assumption that any spell the caster casts beats SR, and any attack hits, and any creature isn't immune to dying like the Tarrasque. But lets not split hairs. :)

If you really want to for sure get the flatfooted for Sneak attacks every time - there's always dirty tricks and a variety of combat maneuvers that can be done instead of one of your attacks to get the negated dex mod.

There's also the dip into monk of the open hand to get the weapon proficiency shenanigans offered there and spend a feat to get catch off guard + any disarm maneuver to make your foe weaponless - thus subject to every attack becoming a sneak.

Heck you could become alchemically invisible (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/alchemically-invisible-cr-2) and bypass all the need to worry about getting flat footed bonuses.

So getting the "My foe will be flatfooted all the darn time" is not difficult in PF - just takes a little knowhow. :)

The key here is versatility. Because you have a powerful option for only 2 feats, you can branch out into other areas and become more well rounded and able to handle a variety of situations very well, not just one specific thing extremely well.

[Flickerdart]

Absolutely! However, I don't believe in it. The rocket tag phenomenon is a creation of poor encounter design.

"Rocket tag doesn't exist because you can build around it" is a meaningless statement. Yes, it's possible to create encounters resilient to powerful spike damage, but it is much more difficult to pump defense than it is to pump offense.

[Nibbens]

"Rocket tag doesn't exist because you can build around it" is a meaningless statement. Yes, it's possible to create encounters resilient to powerful spike damage, but it is much more difficult to pump defense than it is to pump offense.

I'm not referring to building encounters resilient to spike damage - I mean encounter design, not creature design.

[Kurald Galain]

Besides, I'm not saying its the greatest - but 19d6+20 damage at level ten is nothing to scoff at
Meh, an optimized barbarian can pull such figures several levels earlier, and without requiring a +7 weapon, and without doing non-lethal (which indeed many many critters are immune to).

[Nibbens]

Meh, an optimized barbarian can pull such figures several levels earlier, and without requiring a +7 weapon, and without doing non-lethal (which indeed many many critters are immune to).

Okay, but how many feats and class features does the barbarian use up to get to those figures? And as stated earlier, the +7 weapon is just a maximum effect - not a baseline - You could easily pull off +2 weapon for 3d6 +10d6+20 sneak damage (or a +3 weapon for 5d6 on weapon damage if you're so inclined) To achieve this you need 2 feats and a +2 weapon. Thats it - with plenty of other avenues still available to travel down to round out your effectiveness in other areas.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not referring to building encounters resilient to spike damage - I mean encounter design, not creature design.
Who said anything about creature design? "Twelve 1st level goblins" is an encounter resilient to spike damage while not doing anything at all to the creature.

[Kurald Galain]

And as stated earlier, the +7 weapon is just a maximum effect - not a baseline - You could easily pull off +2 weapon for 3d6 +10d6+20 sneak damage (or a +3 weapon for 5d6 on weapon damage if you're so inclined) To achieve this you need 2 feats and a +2 weapon. Thats it - with plenty of other avenues still available to travel down to round out your effectiveness in other areas.

No, that's not it. You haven't specified a reliable way to get your opponents flat-footed, nor have you specified how you'll deal with opponents that are immune to non-lethal damage.

This thread is about breaking Pathfinder. It's not about how weak classes can on occasion deal decent damage if the situation is in their favor. Simply put, rogues don't break Pathfinder, and doing 65 damage by level 10 doesn't break Pathfinder either.

[Nibbens]

Who said anything about creature design? "Twelve 1st level goblins" is an encounter resilient to spike damage while not doing anything at all to the creature.

Ah, kk. Now I understand. Yeah, you're correct - also, terrain features, obstacles, "does the enemy know his environment enough to increase his own suitability" and even even encounter objectives all add to the resilience of spike damage. If a caster is being forced to decide to do spike damage vs other things to get the PC's out of immediate danger is important to this as well.

When your "Pump offense / pump defense" comment was made, I thought you meant modifying creatures, not PCs. lol.

[Nibbens]

No, that's not it. You haven't specified a reliable way to get your opponents flat-footed.

Alchemical invisibility - You're always invisible so your opponents are always flatfooted. Done. (Which, on a side note, can we also just take a moment to appreciate just how cool Alchemical Invisibility is. At low levels that DC15 could be annoying, but higher - that's hot... Unless your dm wants to make all his enemies have see invis or true seeing)


nor have you specified how you'll deal with opponents that are immune to non-lethal damage.

Just fyi, while undead and constructs are immune to nonlethal, but are not immune to sneak. That being said, turn off your merciful enchantment as a free action and get to work with some other feat progression which you can follow because you have only burned two feats to achieve my goal.

I have actively said I don't have all the answers, what I have provided is a way to get a nice chunk of damage in certain situations with the remainder of your feats and level progression open to any other type of cheese available to the rogue.


This thread is about breaking Pathfinder. It's not about how weak classes can on occasion deal decent damage if the situation is in their favor. Simply put, rogues don't break Pathfinder, and doing 65 damage by level 10 doesn't break Pathfinder either.

What would you consider "breaking pathfinder" kind of damage around level ten? and can you provide examples on how to achieve the numbers provided? I'm curious to what my goal should be so I can actively participate in this thread without being hammered for not achieving the thread goals.

[Psyren]

The reason that spells like Teleport and such are broken isn't because they break the game - it's because they change the game, and the game is bad at telling GMs that. The same goes for a lot of spells that break the game, actually - they're not that broken if the GM is prepared for them and takes them into account when designing the adventure, but when they aren't? That's when you get horror stories of scry-and-die and the Wizard upstaging the Fighter by one-shot Save-or-Dieing the big bad Dragon. Or stuff like setting the PCs up against the CLIFFS OF INSANITY and having the Wizard just Spiderclimb/Fly everyone to the top. Or having the Emperor by assassinated and the party Cleric just cast Raise Dead on his body while the Wizard divines whodunnit.

Thing is though, the books do warn GMs about these things. The problem is that people skim instead of reading, and then blame the system instead of themselves. This is as true in 3.5 as it is in PF.

[Almarck]

The easy solution: if the party is really facing a level appropriate encounter, it's likely their enemies are at their level and have access to the same resources they do, maybe even more of both. So, the Emporer was assassinated and the wizard and cleric are about to instantly solve a scenario that should solve a week? Take his soul and use appropriate antiscrying counter measures to occlude the divining answers. If this was an assassination from a group of respectable power, there would be atleast justifications for them planning continigencies to prevent people from undoing their work. It's not as if the party has the only fullcasters of decent level in the world and people In-Setting would have reasonable justification to think about how to best counter magic.

I get player agency is a thing that should be allowed to let players feel like their choices matter, but if it risks ending a day's session just as soon as it begins, it probably breaks the game in that particular case.

[Psyren]

Or, y'know, just be cryptic. Divinations should be useful, but there's a lot of daylight between being useful and solving the entire plot at a stroke. And while questioning a corpse can provide crucial insight, the dead person may not know all that much more than the investigators do about why they were murdered.

Just be creative; let the players' choices matter, without letting them invalidate the campaign. 95% of the time you can do this while staying squarely within the letter of RAW; for the 5% of the time where you have to houserule, just be up front and consistent about it.

[Kurald Galain]

Alchemical invisibility - At low levels that DC15 could be annoying,

Ok, so you have to make a save each round to avoid doing nothing or attacking your own party? That makes your character hilariously unplayable.

Moving on.

[Nibbens]

Ok, so you have to make a save each round to avoid doing nothing or attacking your own party? That makes your character hilariously unplayable.

Moving on.

Okay, ignore everything else I say. LOL.

Anyway, could someone else please define what is considered "breaking Pathfinder" damage for a level 10 character? I'm actually curious so I can comment on this thread appropriately - up to the standards desired.

[IZ42]

Okay, ignore everything else I say. LOL.

Anyway, could someone else please define what is considered "breaking Pathfinder" damage for a level 10 character? I'm actually curious so I can comment on this thread appropriately - up to the standards desired.

Arcanist, Master Summoner, Barbarian Ubercharging Shenanigans(I've seen this do upwards of 100 damage at level 8 or so, but that was with some 3.5 material)

[Raven777]

You can't retrain traits, though.

Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge)::Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits)::Thougthful Wish-Maker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/thoughtful-wish-maker-plane-of-fire)

More: Thougthful Wish-Maker + wishing for whatever you want to happen immediately, not over time.

[Almarck]

Here's a question what if granting it on demand is not in the wish's capabilities or ability to grant?

[Flickerdart]

Ah, kk. Now I understand. Yeah, you're correct - also, terrain features, obstacles, "does the enemy know his environment enough to increase his own suitability" and even even encounter objectives all add to the resilience of spike damage. If a caster is being forced to decide to do spike damage vs other things to get the PC's out of immediate danger is important to this as well.

When your "Pump offense / pump defense" comment was made, I thought you meant modifying creatures, not PCs. lol.
I was referring to the fact that it's super easy for a PC to tweak out his massive axe with extra gewgaws of all kinds, but it takes a lot of effort to get defenses beyond "passable". This means that PCs are all going to be tilted towards offense unless they're intentionally making the effort not to be, and thus encounters will be more rocket-taggy unless the DM also makes an effort for them not to be. The ability of the PCs and DM to try and reduce the rocket tag-ness of a game in no way removes the fact that the rocket tag is prevalent.

[Psyren]

Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge)::Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits)::Thougthful Wish-Maker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/thoughtful-wish-maker-plane-of-fire)

More: Thougthful Wish-Maker + wishing for whatever you want to happen immediately, not over time.

Specifying fulfillment time is not part of the safe uses of the spell. Therefore it's DM's choice whether you get it.

[avr]

Alchemical invisibility - You're always invisible so your opponents are always flatfooted. Done. (Which, on a side note, can we also just take a moment to appreciate just how cool Alchemical Invisibility is. At low levels that DC15 could be annoying, but higher - that's hot... Unless your dm wants to make all his enemies have see invis or true seeing)
Alchemical invisibility is +2 CR so you're now a rogue 2 levels behind the party. This is bad.

What would you consider "breaking pathfinder" kind of damage around level ten? and can you provide examples on how to achieve the numbers provided? I'm curious to what my goal should be so I can actively participate in this thread without being hammered for not achieving the thread goals.
For a complete reference try this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kac7?The-DPR-Olympics-or-Im-not-the-mechanic-here).

[Raven777]

Alchemical invisibility is +2 CR so you're now a rogue 2 levels behind the party. This is bad

Or your 4 man party now faces encounters 0.5 CR higher. Having CR readjust APL also works.

[Vhaidara]

At low levels that DC15 could be annoying, but higher - that's hot... Unless your dm wants to make all his enemies have see invis or true seeing)

You are dismissing this far to quickly. A few things to remember
1. This save is made EVERY ROUND. That's every 6 seconds. Nothing about you needing to be awake either. So that's 14400 saves every day.
2. Saves auto-fail on a 1. So that means that every two minutes (hypothetically) you will autofail your save
3. You're a rogue, with all the crappy Will save that implies. Wisdom is not a priority stat for you (12 to be generous). Before items, the highest your Will save will ever get is +7. At the level you're talking about? +4. That's a 50% chance.

[NamelessNPC]

Every COMBAT round. You auto fail once out of 20 combat rounds. That is, once per 4/5 combats.

[Abd al-Azrad]

I'm not all that sold on the idea that "XXX damage = broken" is a good definition. Stabbing people in the chest kills them. As there are plenty of high-DPR classes in the game, it's hard for me to accept that a particular one is way more powerful than the slew of others. It's certainly fun to roll out an 800-damage full attack, but if your character takes a full round to kill one enemy, it doesn't really matter what their final damage total would have been.

Frankly, when I run games, I expect my PCs to kill an enemy if they get to start their turn in ideal circumstances. When I want to make tough fights, either I insert lots of enemies, or use tactics to prevent ideal circumstances until the players really work at it (enemies using Battlefield Control), or I make an enemy that is highly resistant to "ideal circumstances" like crits, elemental damage, etc.

"Breaking" Pathfinder requires, in my opinion, strategies that undermine the whole concept of the game or neutralize entire encounters or game sessions. Basically, the sorts of things that make the game less fun for everyone. Players love rolling massive damage from time to time, this should be encouraged and celebrated. But players that slow game sessions to a crawl with minionmancy, or use chain-Wishes (or any other given tactic) to solve every problem, or transform Save-or-Lose attacks into "Just Lose" attacks, better fit my interpretation of "broken."