How exactly do the Twelve Gods and the Sapphire Guard work?

[Zyzzyva]

The Northern and Western pantheons seem pretty, for lack of a better word, normal. You have a bunch of gods with a bunch of different alignments; Durkon worships Thor and doesn't worship Hel or Loki, although he recognizes them as part of the pantheon. A LG Paladin of Marduk follows a LG god and Falls when they behave too far off from that alignment. That's how it works in FR, that's how it works in generic campaign setting #473, that's how it works in 2/3 of the OOTSverse.

...But the Southern gods don't work that way. They form a pantheon, sure, with members all over the place: Rat is Evil, for instance, and Monkey is probably Chaotic and Dragon is LG* and so forth. Individuals have patrons
Sangwaan and Rooster, for instance
just like for the other pantheons.

But the Sapphire Guard worships them generically: I'm not sure I've even seen a Sapphire Guard refer to an individual god, as opposed to cursing by/swearing by/mentioning them collectively. When Miko Falls, the whole team shows up to smack her down. But they're not all LG! A paladin of Marduk who screwed up that badly might earn Marduk putting on a big light show to smack them down, but Tiamat certainly wouldn't be there to show the flag. So why, exactly, does the Sapphire Guard worship Rat and all the other mis-Aligned gods, and why does Rat care that Miko has committed an Evil act?

(Note: I understand that #407 works much better, visually and story wise, with the whole zodiac punching Miko in the Paladin gland. It's entirely possible the answer to the question is just "Artistic license, duh." But I'm curious if anyone has any wild theorizing to paper this over, as the forum is well-renowned for. :smallwink:)

*This is an assumption that he's a Bahamut-alogue, given that original-flavour Tiamat exists and lives in the West. Not really essential to the argument; presumably the twelve gods manage to cover all nine alignments somehow.

[NerdyKris]

Rich has stated that they are worshipped as a group. One assumes they have an agreement in place for keeping everything tidy. So they aren't feuding like the Northern pantheon, but probably take a "there will always be good and evil in the world so we work on a consensus" point of view.

Given that paladin is a very specific class with a set of rules to follow, I think it's believable that Rat would punish one who breaks their code while also encouraging evil clerics.

I think Sangwaan's situation is that Rooster provides the prophecies among the Southern Gods.

[Quild]

There was indeed a High Priest of the Twelve Gods. Not sure if there was a High Priest for each god specifically. I'm not really surprised by how the pantheon work, but couldn't really explain it :smallconfused:.

Regarding why does rat cares, I believe there is something kinda like the domain agreement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html).

[NerdyKris]

Leave it to the high priest of Hel to explain it better than I could. :smalltongue:

[Zyzzyva]

Forgot about the High Priest of the Twelve Gods. So, the answer is just that the Twelve Gods have a lot more of a collegiate attitude than the other pantheons? Makes sense, I suppose. Thanks!

[Boost]

It's worth noting that the Twelve Gods are based on the Chinese Zodiac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_zodiac), whereas the Northern Gods are based more on Norse mythology and the Eastern Gods are more based on Mesopotamian mythology (Tiamat and Marduk, mentioned in The Crayons of Time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html), are both Mesopotamian in origin). The Giant has said that he bases the "characters" of the gods on his own interpretation of them and he doesn't stick strictly to real-world lore, but the inspiration definitely has an influence on how they're portrayed. Such as, for example, someone being born under the Sign of the Pig (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html) (referring to a zodiac sign, and thus the Twelve Gods).

If the Southern lands base their religion, at least in part, on what sign they're born under, then the gods would have equal influence. The Chinese Zodiac is broken up more-or-less into years. To quote Wikipedia: "For example, a person who is a Tiger is either 12, 24, 36 or 48 years old in 2010, the year of the Tiger." That means that even though Miko was a paladin, she could easily have been born under the sign of the rat, or the ox, or the snake. Everyone born the same year as her would be born under the same sign. But the Twelve Gods can't let, say, Rat have full control over the lives of everyone born during his sign-year, or you'd have a year full of evil people being born. Instead, they have a sense of balance: they each take equal control over the passage of time, so much so that there's even a breakdown of their influence during the 24-hour day cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_zodiac#Zodiac_origin_stories), showing they would be in balance even on a day-by-day basis.

In short, the Twelve Gods are based on an entirely different culture and an entirely different concept of beliefs.

[D.One]

The Deities and Demigods (3.0) cites the existence of Tight Panteons - a smaller group of somehow related gods - and states that the practicioners of such religions may revere all the gods. It seems the case here.

I also agree with Boost, since the "members" of the Chinese Zodiac all have some influence in all the matters, from time to time.

[ti'esar]

It's also worth noting that the whole idea isn't exactly without precedent in official D&D. The 3E Deities and Demigods discusses at one point the difference between "loose" pantheons like the default D&D setup, and "tight" pantheons that can be worshiped as a unit. The Twelve Gods are easy enough to understand as a "tight" pantheon.

Edit: Beaten to the reference.

[dancrilis]

Q: How exactly do the Twelve Gods and the Sapphire Guard work?
A: Not very well the major centre of worship of the first was overrun by Goblins, and the second got slaughtered by a Lich.

[SirKazum]

Q: How exactly do the Twelve Gods and the Sapphire Guard work?
A: Not very well the major centre of worship of the first was overrun by Goblins, and the second got slaughtered by a Lich.

That's just what we've seen. The Twelve Gods are the Southern Pantheon, presumably the predominant pantheon in the whole Southern Continent. And I'd very much doubt that Azure City is the only populational center in the Southern Continent. In fact, there's nothing indicating it's the largest one or even in the top 10. That's just an assumption based on the fact that it's the only Southern realm we see in detail. By the way, there are at least 4 other prominent Southern realms that we see in a quick montage, which presumably also follow the Twelve Gods.

The Sapphire Guard, though, yeah, they're toast.

[jidasfire]

It's also worth noting that historically speaking, picking a god based on one's moral compass is a pretty new idea. Throughout most of history, you worshiped your culture's gods not because you liked them necessarily, but because you believed if you didn't, they'd mess you up but good. As such, the idea of the 12 gods working in unison is not that strange.

[Jasdoif]

Rich has stated that they are worshipped as a group.Yes indeed:
Tsukiko uses the same color for her divine magic as the Azurite priests because they both worship the Twelve Gods, who are worshipped as a pantheon by all alignments in Azure City.

The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.


One assumes they have an agreement in place for keeping everything tidy. So they aren't feuding like the Northern pantheon, but probably take a "there will always be good and evil in the world so we work on a consensus" point of view.I think a part of it, in the case with the Sapphire Guard, is that the intended purpose of the Sapphire Guard is to prevent the Snarl from being released--a situation with the potential to threaten every deity. I bet Rat's on board with "group dedicated to not letting me be destroyed".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's just what we've seen. The Twelve Gods are the Southern Pantheon, presumably the predominant pantheon in the whole Southern Continent. And I'd very much doubt that Azure City is the only populational center in the Southern Continent. In fact, there's nothing indicating it's the largest one or even in the top 10. That's just an assumption based on the fact that it's the only Southern realm we see in detail. By the way, there are at least 4 other prominent Southern realms that we see in a quick montage, which presumably also follow the Twelve Gods.

The Sapphire Guard, though, yeah, they're toast.
While Azure City is unlikely to be the only major population center in the South (especially as we see the Azurites visiting other Southern countries when searching for help), the High Priest of the Twelve Gods was there, which suggests that perhaps the most important temple or something similar was there, making it the center of worship. So, while I'd agree that it's hardly a sign that the Twelve Gods don't work well, I think the point is still technically true.

[dancrilis]

In fact, there's nothing indicating it's the largest one or even in the top 10.
Bardic knowledge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html) indicates it is one of the largest.
The wisdom of heaven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html) indicates it is one of the largest.
The biggest cities around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) indicate it is one of the largest.

However these are only indications not necessarily reality.

[SirKazum]

While Azure City is unlikely to be the only major population center in the South (especially as we see the Azurites visiting other Southern countries when searching for help), the High Priest of the Twelve Gods was there, which suggests that perhaps the most important temple or something similar was there, making it the center of worship. So, while I'd agree that it's hardly a sign that the Twelve Gods don't work well, I think the point is still technically true.

That assumes each god or pantheon (as appropriate) has one single High Priest, which we don't know to be true, and in fact is contrary to the way real-world religion usually functions (although fantasy often works this way). Case in point, you've got High Priests of Thor and Odin (IIRC, don't have OtOOPCs with me right now) in Durkon's homeland... are we to expect all followers of those gods, from all over the Northern continent, bow to the dwarves in matters of religion and pilgrimage to the dwarven caverns to meet the High Priest and all? Could be, but it doesn't sound that likely to me.

Rich has stated that the whole "die with honor and you go to the good gods, die without honor and your soul is Hel's" thing is mostly restricted to dwarves, which indicates that, even just with a single pantheon (Northern), there are actually several different religions (as in, ways to understand the gods as a whole) so to speak.

My take is that the High Priest that fought Redcloak was probably the highest religious leader around, and answered to nobody other than the Twelve Gods... but there are also a bunch of other "top-level" religious leaders that follow the Southern Pantheon, who head clerics of different nations or civilizations in the Southern Continent. And similarly for the other continents, pantheons and deities.

[SirKazum]

Bardic knowledge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html) indicates it is one of the largest.
The wisdom of heaven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html) indicates it is one of the largest.
The biggest cities around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) indicate it is one of the largest.

However these are only indications not necessarily reality.

I don't get the "wisdom of heaven" reference. Are you sure it's the right comic? Admittedly, I'm in a bit of a hurry and didn't read it that thoroughly. I totally missed the other two though. Yeah, OK, Azure City is a pretty dang large city, probably one of the largest in the continent... but far from the only place people where worshippers of the Twelve live, so my point still stands.

[dancrilis]

The 'wisdom of heaven' was probably the weakest of the three references - but 'one of the oldest bastions of good on the mortal plane' was the reference I was pointing out.

Just because it is old and a bastion does not mean it is the greatest of them - but I would say the implication is there given that it was mentioned at a planer level than merely a continental level.

I am of course putting pieces together that might not fit - but I take the tone of the comic to indicate that Azure city was the centre of the faith of the Twelve.

[ti'esar]

I also got the impression that the cleric Redcloak dueled was only meant to be the High Priest of the Twelve Gods within Azure City.

[Keltest]

I would like to point out that Redcloak is the absolute top priest and authority for the Dark One among goblinoids, including hobgoblins, bugbears and any other miscellaneous goblin sub race. Whether or not you think the other gods work the same way, there is at least precedent for such a hierarchy extending beyond race and city.

[thereaper]

I assumed that the Twelve Gods tended to decide things among themselves as a group. So, if there are more Lawful and Good deities in the pantheon, then its decisions would tend towards Law and Good, even if some of its members don't.

[SirKazum]

I would like to point out that Redcloak is the absolute top priest and authority for the Dark One among goblinoids, including hobgoblins, bugbears and any other miscellaneous goblin sub race. Whether or not you think the other gods work the same way, there is at least precedent for such a hierarchy extending beyond race and city.

Well yeah, but the Dark One is kind of a special case. His history and relationship to the goblinoid races point to a more direct and well-defined hierarchical situation. I wouldn't expect there to be more than one High Priest of the Dark One at all, since he (the god) manages the priesthood (and the goblinoid races as a whole) so directly. Other gods, however, often have a more "live and let live" relationship with mortals, rewarding those who are faithful (possibly with divine powers, as appropriate), but not necessarily sponsoring priestly hierarchies. Of course, that depends a lot on each deity's particular disposition. I'm not saying there have to be a number of separate churches with different High Priests for each deity or tight pantheon, just that it's a possibility that shouldn't be disregarded without good reason.

[Keltest]

Well yeah, but the Dark One is kind of a special case. His history and relationship to the goblinoid races point to a more direct and well-defined hierarchical situation. I wouldn't expect there to be more than one High Priest of the Dark One at all, since he (the god) manages the priesthood (and the goblinoid races as a whole) so directly. Other gods, however, often have a more "live and let live" relationship with mortals, rewarding those who are faithful (possibly with divine powers, as appropriate), but not necessarily sponsoring priestly hierarchies. Of course, that depends a lot on each deity's particular disposition. I'm not saying there have to be a number of separate churches with different High Priests for each deity or tight pantheon, just that it's a possibility that shouldn't be disregarded without good reason.

As I said, it is not definitive proof of anything, however it does establish that such a scenario is not unheard of.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It should also be pointed out that Redcloak wears the fricking artifact of his deity, and the hobgoblins he met up with in Book 2 didn't cut him any slack for it.

[Keltest]

It should also be pointed out that Redcloak wears the fricking artifact of his deity, and the hobgoblins he met up with in Book 2 didn't cut him any slack for it.

Given the level of absolute devotion they have since displayed, that's understandable. I mean, look at the potential for abuse such a position has! Why, Redcloak could have done something nasty like order a bunch of them to their deaths because he was bullied as a kid.

[Jasdoif]

And I'd very much doubt that Azure City is the only populational center in the Southern Continent. In fact, there's nothing indicating it's the largest one or even in the top 10. That's just an assumption based on the fact that it's the only Southern realm we see in detail.Stick Planet Travel Guide to the Southern Lands specifically says "Azure City is the largest city in Southern Lands" and "Azure City is the only true city within Azurite territory". Assuming of course there are 10+ cities in the Southern Lands, 2-10 are necessarily not Azurite.

[SirKazum]

Well... OK, OK, OK. I guess Azure City is indeed the biggest Southern city. That still doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people living in other, non-Azurite Southern civilizations (of which we see four in the comic), which may not have cities as big as Azure, but still have a considerable population that worships the Twelve Gods. And I'm still not sold on Azure City being the religious center of Twelve Gods worship.

My point is that saying the Twelve Gods aren't doing so good (mortal world-wise) due to AC's destruction is akin to saying "New York just got destroyed, I guess that means Christianity is pretty much eradicated from Earth". It's just a small portion of the worshipper base, even if it's the biggest city around. Even if it were the Twelve Gods' Vatican, so to speak, their religion still would go on strongly. But I guess looking too deep into real-world parallels is probably a really bad idea in this case, so I'll drop that line of reasoning :smalltongue:


The 'wisdom of heaven' was probably the weakest of the three references - but 'one of the oldest bastions of good on the mortal plane' was the reference I was pointing out.

Just because it is old and a bastion does not mean it is the greatest of them - but I would say the implication is there given that it was mentioned at a planer level than merely a continental level.

I am of course putting pieces together that might not fit - but I take the tone of the comic to indicate that Azure city was the centre of the faith of the Twelve.

Oh, I remember that now. And, at the time, I thought the "bastion of good" thing was referring specifically to the Sapphire Guard, and I'm still inclined to think that. From a LG character's standpoint, having a big badass order of highly devoted paladins, with lots of members in its ranks, eradicated is indeed a staggering loss... but it still doesn't necessarily mean referring to worship of the Twelve Gods, just to the paladins. Besides, your mileage may vary on this one, but I'd guess the Southern Pantheon as a whole leans more toward neutrality on average, being the sum total of gods active on the Southern Continent (not counting outliers such as the Dark One and such).

And besides, one reason I didn't get the reference was because I wasn't expecting "wisdom of heaven" to refer to Eugene Greenhilt... he may technically be a LG spiritual being, but he ain't exactly a very enlightened celestial at that :smalltongue: (Not that it really harms your point, though, he's still a learned wizard.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

For me, the fact that we haven't seen any evidence of multiple High Priests per god (or group of gods), coupled with the fact that he called himself the high priest of the Twelve Gods, as opposed to a high priest or the high priest of Azure City, makes me think he is the head of the church. It's not definitive, of course, so your interpretation is certainly valid, but not one I would support.

[dancrilis]

Oh, I remember that now. And, at the time, I thought the "bastion of good" thing was referring specifically to the Sapphire Guard, and I'm still inclined to think that.

I can see where you are coming from but I disagree from 277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) we know that Soon founded the Sapphire Guard (and named them for the Sapphire) - so while one of the oldest bastions could actually still be fairly new - I suspect that even prior to the Sapphire Guard Azure City was still considered a 'bastion of good'.

Now it might be that the good gods of twelve were more popular in Azure City and perhaps other regions focus on other gods (while worshipping the pantheon as a whole) - but it would still be pantheon to have Azure City rubbed off the map (and potentially damage the faiths in nearby regions).

[SirKazum]

If the Southern lands base their religion, at least in part, on what sign they're born under, then the gods would have equal influence. The Chinese Zodiac is broken up more-or-less into years. To quote Wikipedia: "For example, a person who is a Tiger is either 12, 24, 36 or 48 years old in 2010, the year of the Tiger." That means that even though Miko was a paladin, she could easily have been born under the sign of the rat, or the ox, or the snake. Everyone born the same year as her would be born under the same sign. But the Twelve Gods can't let, say, Rat have full control over the lives of everyone born during his sign-year, or you'd have a year full of evil people being born. Instead, they have a sense of balance: they each take equal control over the passage of time, so much so that there's even a breakdown of their influence during the 24-hour day cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_zodiac#Zodiac_origin_stories), showing they would be in balance even on a day-by-day basis.

Was just reading the Wikipedia article above, and the following seems rather relevant in this aspect:


In Chinese astrology the animal signs assigned by year represent what others perceive you as being or how you present yourself. It is a common misconception that the animals assigned by year are the only signs and many western descriptions of Chinese astrology draw solely on this system. In fact, there are also animal signs assigned by month (called inner animals), by day (called true animals) and hours (called secret animals).

So, even if you assume the 12 gods have different alignments and outlooks, there are still several combinations of signs a person might be born under. So, everyone born under the year of the Rat might form a generation of people often seen by their peers as conniving bastards, many of those will feel noble or courageous or whatever inside (as per their monthly sign), their true nature is something else entirely (daily sign), and they may secretly present traits of yet another sign (hourly sign).

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's also an aspect drawn from the five elements of Chinese alchemy. The whole system ends up being unbelievably complicated IMHO, but that's true of pretty much any highly detailed exception-based system.

[Boost]

Was just reading the Wikipedia article above, and the following seems rather relevant in this aspect:



So, even if you assume the 12 gods have different alignments and outlooks, there are still several combinations of signs a person might be born under. So, everyone born under the year of the Rat might form a generation of people often seen by their peers as conniving bastards, many of those will feel noble or courageous or whatever inside (as per their monthly sign), their true nature is something else entirely (daily sign), and they may secretly present traits of yet another sign (hourly sign).

Fascinating. This lends even more to the "all 12 gods are worshipped as one" aspect of the Southern Lands.