[Fluff] Difference between religious classes?

[CockroachTeaParty]

So, recently I've been thinking about the distinction between clerics and the new war priest class from the ACG. For some deities, the difference is pretty clear; a war priest of Sarenrae is clearly a more martial, militant, fighty servant of the dawn flower than your traditional cleric, who is likely focused on healing, cleansing curses and disease, etc.

However, for certain deities the distinction seems much more blurry. For instance, what is the difference between a cleric of Gorum (the god of war) and a war priest of Gorum? Mechanically there's a difference, certainly, but in-world flavor, what would inspire one worshiper of Our Lord in Iron to walk the cleric's path as opposed to the war priest's path? Both characters would likely look the same (spiked full plate, great sword, lots of blood stains), but is there a difference in their role within the church (as organized as a CN religion likely is)? Wouldn't all holy servants of Gorum default to war priests?

I'm curious what other people's thoughts on the matter are. I'd like to try and hammer out the role of clerics, war priests, inquisitors, paladins/antipaladins, and other such classes for the various deities for my own reference and internal consistency within the games I run.

[Psyren]

A Cleric of Gorum would be the guy who wants to be a cleric first and a warrior second, while a Warpriest of Gorum would be the other way around.

I would imagine that, yes, more Gorum-worshippers would lean towards Warpriest first and Cleric second; Clerics however will have more nuanced roles in the church than simply swinging pointy bits of metal around. A cleric for instance will be the one patching up many other warriors so they can fight on, or crafting better gear for them to wage war with, or calling down celestial (or infernal) backup etc. They would also be the ones charismatically evangelizing about the glories of war, recruiting for mercenary companies and armies, etc. Warpriests, both mechanically and thematically, are more focused around simply fighting.

[grarrrg]

A Cleric of Gorum would be the guy who wants to be a cleric first and a warrior second, while a Warpriest of Gorum would be the other way around.

^This ^

It all depends on if the person in question wants the emphasis on HOLY-Smackdown, or Holy-SMACKDOWN.

(Anti)Paladins would be the most martial focused of any worshipers.

Warpriests edge out Inquisitors for Marital focused 6th level casters. Inquisitors tend more towards Skill-monkey type roles, but are more than capable in a straight up fight.

Clerics/Oracles sort of depends on the deity in question. An Oracle following Gorum would more likely choose domains like Battle over Lore, and would wind up a little more martial focused than their Cleric friends. Likewise any Oracle devoted to a "knowledge" deity would more like choose Lore over Battle and be less 'smashy-smashy'.

[Spore]

An Oracle following Gorum would more likely choose domains like Battle over Lore

I always felt like "being an Battle Oracle" isn't a choice but pushed upon one. You get a mystery and a curse. Your choice is which spells you focus on and which revelations you concentrate on.

[grarrrg]

I always felt like "being an Battle Oracle" isn't a choice but pushed upon one. You get a mystery and a curse. Your choice is which spells you focus on and which revelations you concentrate on.

From an outside perspective, the player chooses the Mystery, but from an in-game one, the Mystery is forced upon them.

But Mysteries are not purely random, they are based on the person and their experiences/desires/etc...
Someone who would be inclined to follow Gorum would have a more natural "war" inclination than they would "knowledge" and would thus be much more likely to 'receive' the Battle Mystery than they would the Lore one.

[Psyren]

From an outside perspective, the player chooses the Mystery, but from an in-game one, the Mystery is forced upon them.

Indeed - they have no more choice in the matter than a sorcerer would over his ancestry/bloodline.



But Mysteries are not purely random, they are based on the person and their experiences/desires/etc...
Someone who would be inclined to follow Gorum would have a more natural "war" inclination than they would "knowledge" and would thus be much more likely to 'receive' the Battle Mystery than they would the Lore one.

It's possible though to end up with a mystery that is totally at odds with your personality too, making them just another part of the Oracle's curse. Maybe you don't want to be plagued with these visions of battles to come, but at the same time, the martial skill they whisper into your mind is keeping you alive.

[Vhaidara]

The fluff difference is entirely how you play them. I could write a character, and the same character could be a Cleric, a Paladin, a Warpriest, an Inquisitor, a Warder, a Stalker, a Zealot, a Mystic, or even a Monk.

[grarrrg]

It's possible though to end up with a mystery that is totally at odds with your personality too

Going by the fluff:
"This mystery can represent a devotion to one ideal, prayers to deities that support the concept, or a natural calling to champion a cause. For example, an oracle with the waves mystery might have been born at sea and found a natural calling to worship the gods of the oceans, rivers, and lakes, be they benign or malevolent."
It is unlikely to get a Mystery that is at odds with yourself.

Curses may be "entirely random" but Mysteries are not.

[Spore]

From an outside perspective, the player chooses the Mystery, but from an in-game one, the Mystery is forced upon them.

I though we are only talking about fluff here. Hence the fluff tag in the title...


But Mysteries are not purely random, they are based on the person and their experiences/desires/etc...


Yeah it would be pretty weird for gods to toss out unrestricted access to divine powers to some random guy without any clear conviction to a cause. But I love the possibility of Sarenrae (a good goddess of healin) providing power for an oracle to cast Contagion (an evil spell of disease). There is MUCH in a lifetime that could change your view on points entirely.

Which brings me to the point, where - in the fluff of course - the gods (or the DM in a metasense) can cut off an oracle's power. Paladins, Clerics, Warpriests and even Inquisitors are restricted by pure rules and have to make efforts to circumvent some restrictions. An Oracle of Nature could defile forests, an Oracle of Ancestors could kill and revive a kid's parents as zombies.

[Psyren]

Going by the fluff:
"This mystery can represent a devotion to one ideal, prayers to deities that support the concept, or a natural calling to champion a cause. For example, an oracle with the waves mystery might have been born at sea and found a natural calling to worship the gods of the oceans, rivers, and lakes, be they benign or malevolent."
It is unlikely to get a Mystery that is at odds with yourself.

Curses may be "entirely random" but Mysteries are not.

"Natural calling to champion a cause" does not guarantee it is a cause you yourself hold dear or even understand.


I though we are only talking about fluff here. Hence the fluff tag in the title...



Yeah it would be pretty weird for gods to toss out unrestricted access to divine powers to some random guy without any clear conviction to a cause. But I love the possibility of Sarenrae (a good goddess of healin) providing power for an oracle to cast Contagion (an evil spell of disease). There is MUCH in a lifetime that could change your view on points entirely.

Which brings me to the point, where - in the fluff of course - the gods (or the DM in a metasense) can cut off an oracle's power. Paladins, Clerics, Warpriests and even Inquisitors are restricted by pure rules and have to make efforts to circumvent some restrictions. An Oracle of Nature could defile forests, an Oracle of Ancestors could kill and revive a kid's parents as zombies.

That's no different than a Favored Soul. Indeed, Oracles are pretty much a calculated risk on the deities' part, as they have to take a much more direct hand (if they're even willing or able to do so) should the elevated individual end up misusing their gifts. Further, mysteries are associated with a group of deities rather than just one - It can be difficult to tell if, for example, your flames come from Sarenrae or Asmodeus, especially when they stick around no matter how your alignment shifts.

[VexingFool]

However, for certain deities the distinction seems much more blurry. For instance, what is the difference between a cleric of Gorum (the god of war) and a war priest of Gorum? Mechanically there's a difference, certainly, but in-world flavor, what would inspire one worshiper of Our Lord in Iron to walk the cleric's path as opposed to the war priest's path? Both characters would likely look the same (spiked full plate, great sword, lots of blood stains), but is there a difference in their role within the church (as organized as a CN religion likely is)? Wouldn't all holy servants of Gorum default to war priests?

They would not look the same since Clerics do not get Heavy armor proficiency.

[Abrasis Mindlef]

Clerics can hold Ceremonies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?394353-Religion-on-Golarion-The-village-priest-and-his-influence).

This makes a big difference:
The Cleric of Gorum inspires the congregation and grants 5-day long buffs(10 days with Extend spell? I'm not sure if Extend Spell can exceed the maximum duration).

[Spore]

Further, mysteries are associated with a group of deities rather than just one - It can be difficult to tell if, for example, your flames come from Sarenrae or Asmodeus, especially when they stick around no matter how your alignment shifts.

That is why I prefer most of my oracle fluff to be "Prometheus Light". The Oracle unwillingly stole the fire from the gods and receives a curse from them as well as a fraction of divine energy. The curse and spells can be given back (retraining rules) or the siphoned power can be increased (which reduces the curse by potentially getting the aid of one or several divine supporters as you grow in power).