Fight a dragon in its lair "fairly"

[Icewraith]

Alright, so I'm looking for tips and tricks for, as the title says, fighting a Dragon in its lair "fairly".

This came about because I happened to be playing a 10th level Diviner with wall of force prepared, and the party druid just happened (no really) to have wall of fire prepped, and we were going to fight a dragon in its lair (for me the first time in this edition). So using portent, I foresaw the Dragon rolling an 8 on initiative and the druid rolling a 17, and I rolled behind the druid but before the dragon.

So the dragon got trapped under a bubble of force with a fire wall placed so he couldn't avoid it, and roasted while we took out his allies and got to deal with lair abilities trying to kill us. There were some complications that involved the dragon digging out the area underneath the bubble (I wasn't sure if I could conjure the full sphere through the soil so I used the hemisphere) and in the ensuing fight we technically wiped but the dragon ran off as he didn't know how bad a shape we were in from the breath he used to cover his escape route.

One of the takeaways from the whole thing was that yeah, it was technically a great strategy, but the whole point of the DM setting up an encounter with a (huge green) dragon in its lair was so that he could use a dragon in its lair, with all the nastiness that ensues. The wizard and the druid shut down the dragon and the monk and the rogue beat the crap out of the dragon's ally bud who was supposed to escape as well, so all the players got to do cool stuff, but if the DM had played by RAW the fight would have technically been a complete let down. I thought I was being sporting since we could have easily included the other main baddie in the wall of fire+dome of force area and roasted both of them, but I'm straying from the main point.

In a fairly balanced four or five man party of mid level, what are some suggested tactics that result in a more satisfying fight for the DM, but one that the players should be able to weather and still triumph? Is protection from energy worth it even with the concentration? I figure fire shield would be much more beneficial for fire/cold damage dragons, but what about poison, lightning etc? I'm not sure what, if any saves are worth targeting or what kind of defenses we need to stop the weaker willed characters from being charmed and the less nimble characters from getting hit by some kind of damaging wall effect. What spells are enough of a nuisance for the DM to blow legendary saves on instead of putting up with the effect?

Tips for classes other than the ones mentioned here are also appreciated. I also don't need anyone arguing about what happened in our session, I just need some combat tactics that will let a mid-level party fight a dragon of a known color in its lair instead of neutering or negating it.

[RulesJD]

Whether you want feedback on it or not, that's not RAW. The closest thing we have to a ruling is that Wall of Force blocks line of effect, so you cannot concentrate on a spell that is occurring inside a Wall of Force (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/02/force-barrier/). You could have the dome 1 inch off the ground so as to launch spells underneath it, but then the dragon can breath weapon you in return...unless you're out of its range of course.

The dragon should have been doing everything possible to break concentration, including Frightful Presence. I'm assuming this is the dragon encounter in Rise of Tiamat? There are enough allies and archers in that cave to have easily forced numerous concentration checks on either the Fire or Force.

For save spells to burn through a dragons legendary resistances:
1. Banishment
2. Hold Monster
3. Suggestion (fly around at 500ft for 8 hours = auto win)
4. Polymorph
etc

Super cheap tactic against dragons:
1. Bigby's Hand (Interposing). Dragon cannot move closer to the Wizard because Hand's Strength > Dragon Strength. Wizard stays 65ft away and plinks away until dead dragon.

Fun fight against Dragon:
Druid: Cast Polymorph -> Giant Ape on the Monk
Wizard: Cast Fly on the now Giant Ape Monk.
Sit back and reenact Godzilla vs King Kong

[jaydubs]

Whether you want feedback on it or not, that's not RAW. The closest thing we have to a ruling is that Wall of Force blocks line of effect, so you cannot concentrate on a spell that is occurring inside a Wall of Force (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/02/force-barrier/). You could have the dome 1 inch off the ground so as to launch spells underneath it, but then the dragon can breath weapon you in return...unless you're out of its range of course.

I'd argue that's more about not being able to cast into a wall of force. But a spell already cast can still be concentrated on, due to "Once a spell is cast, its effects aren’t limited by its range, unless the spell’s description says otherwise." Otherwise you'd have situations where someone casts invisibility on a party member. That party member walks into a building and closes the door. And that causes them to reappear.

[HarrisonF]

First, I know you said you didn't want it, but there was a problem with your original method, as you can only use one portent die per turn. So you could do the dragon initiative, or your druid friend, but not both.

When fighting a dragon, there are generally a few big issues:

1. Frightful Presence: This is a high-ish Wisdom save required. There are some abilities that can help a lot with this, from Halflings to Heroism to Calm Emotions. A pre-cast Calm emotions can target the entire party, presuming you can keep up concentration for a few round until everyone saves.

2. Being able to hit it. Smart dragons will fly around doing various things (breath weapons, spells) that involve not getting into melee range. This will normally be a problem if you have a lot of melee oriented characters. The paladin with the big 2H sword is going to cry. Everyone needs to have a good source of ranged damage.

3. Damage output. Dragon breath weapons can do pretty serious amounts of damage. You want to be spread out such that it can only hit one or two people. Using cover is a useful for those that can't survive hits. Dragons also get lair actions which can also do more damage. You aren't going to be able to out heal it, but spells like healing word to get a person back up after they go down to the breath weapon are useful to preserve action economy. Cover may be useful as well if available.

4. Saves. Dragon saves are generally pretty good for Wis, Con, Str, Cha. Dex is quite low, and sometimes Int depending on the dragon type.

In addition, they get legendary saves, which allow them to automatically save 3 times after failing. There are two ways to deal with legendary saves, either exhaust them or ignore them. This strategy will come down to party makeup. Some classes have good save side effects which can waste the legendary saves. For example, monk stunning strike or battlemaster menacing attack. With these sorts in the party, you can go through legendary saves faster. Without them, I wouldn't recommend trying to go through them with save-or-suck spells. Your casters ends up becoming buff bots and damage dealers.

[Knaight]

One of the takeaways from the whole thing was that yeah, it was technically a great strategy, but the whole point of the DM setting up an encounter with a (huge green) dragon in its lair was so that he could use a dragon in its lair, with all the nastiness that ensues.

Not necessarily. Speaking as a GM here, I generally expect that overwhelming encounters will be avoided if possible, and engaged in the most hideously unfair way possible if engagement does happen. Some of the best moments in games I've run have been when a fair fight was artfully avoided through the execution of a well considered and clever strategy.

[Chronos]

I don't know the specific dragon you were facing, but another potential issue is if the dragon has spellcasting. Dispel Magic, Misty Step, or Disintegrate could all negate your strategy.

That said, though, I agree with Knaight about the value of a fair fight (i.e., not very high).

[JNAProductions]

A dragon is many times your size, has harder natural armor than full plate in most cases, natural magic and powerful breath attacks, more durable through HP, and is just all around more BA than any humanoid.

That's not a fair fight and it's slanted in the dragon's favor. So do everything you can to tilt the table towards your end.

[RulesJD]

I'd argue that's more about not being able to cast into a wall of force. But a spell already cast can still be concentrated on, due to "Once a spell is cast, its effects aren’t limited by its range, unless the spell’s description says otherwise." Otherwise you'd have situations where someone casts invisibility on a party member. That party member walks into a building and closes the door. And that causes them to reappear.

That is now how Line of Effect works. A mundane door is different than a Wall of Force, at least with what little direction we've received. It's more akin to casting invisibility on a creature then the creature is teleported to another plane of existence, or on the other side of a thin dome of an Anti-magic field. Until we get further guidance, you cannot concentrate on a spell that is located under a Wall of Force, although there is the obviously argument that the concentration can come through the dirt underneath unless you for the Force as a sphere.

[Chronos]

Where is this rule that you need line of effect to concentrate on a spell, and how does a door or mundane wall not block line of effect?

[mephnick]

I don't think concentration and line of effect are a thing. If you cast invisibility on the fighter and he walks around the corner he doesn't become visible.

[jaydubs]

That is now how Line of Effect works. A mundane door is different than a Wall of Force, at least with what little direction we've received. It's more akin to casting invisibility on a creature then the creature is teleported to another plane of existence, or on the other side of a thin dome of an Anti-magic field. Until we get further guidance, you cannot concentrate on a spell that is located under a Wall of Force, although there is the obviously argument that the concentration can come through the dirt underneath unless you for the Force as a sphere.

I'd argue that Mearls response doesn't make line-of-effect official jargon. It's just a basic statement that you can't cast through solid objects. But let's look at both options.

First is his description. "In general, a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells." A mundane door stops physical objects. So does a wall, a ceiling, a curtain, or just about any other solid barrier.

I'm not a fan of looking at previous versions for 5e guidance, but as an exercise let's do that. If instead we go back to the old 3.5 Line of Effect (I'm not familiar enough with 4e to know if it had one), we have:

Line of Effect

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.
Here again, a door/wall/ceiling/etc. will all break line-of-effect.

Returning to the original point, I'd say breaking line-of-effect doesn't prevent concentration. Not only because of the line that says once a spell is cast, range is no longer an issue. But also because it would result in the aforementioned "invisibility stops working the moment you walk around a corner or close a door" scenario.

[Knaight]

First is his description. "In general, a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells." A mundane door stops physical objects. So does a wall, a ceiling, a curtain, or just about any other solid barrier.

It depends on the physical object. Most doors are going to stop the sorts of physical objects used for comparison, but curtains? Arrows are going to go right through a lot of them, and whether or not they stop spells is technically up for debate. I'd generally rule that they do, but that's only one particular way of envisioning things, and even then there are spells that might prove exceptions.

Then there's the solid barrier phrasing in some places, and just the barrier phrasing in others. Plenty of physical objects are going to be stopped by a waterfall, it's certainly a barrier and by no means solid. Whether or not spells go through by RAI is up for debate.

[MustacheFart]

Question: Has anyone tried the rules for climbing onto a creature listed in the DMG against a dragon? Seems like a good tactic for the melee characters would be to jump on the dragon and then move up to the back of his head. Good luck trying to breath weapon the back of your own head.

[Heartspan]

I was in a party (different edition) that did thay, only with a drake. It was awesome. Do it. What i say though, fair should fly out the window as far as fun is concerned. All the players like using cheap tactics to curbstomp a dragon, go for it. The party likes a challenging, engaging fight? Make the dragon the smartest lizard in all the land!

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The spell targeting rules say that you need a "clear path" to a target- it "can't be behind total cover". Wall of force definitely counts as total cover, even though you can see through it. I would rule you can cast it before the wall of force and maintain it but you can't re-cast it through the wall of force.

Even if the dragon is stuck in the wall of force though it doesn't seem like a huge problem. The wall of fire is only 5d8 per round (avg 22) and the dragon still has its lair actions as described. The poisonous gas action of the red dragon incapacitates you, which is a great way to drop casters. Unless they are dwarfs i guess.

[Myzz]

fighting a dragon fair is not really an option... not just because its bigger, more resistant and such a badmamajama. It wouldnt want to fight fair. Any fight that seems fair should be a dragon ploy to make it seem fair and even if it results in the dragons "death" the dragon would have anticipated that and would indeed be alive somewhere watching...

I don't like that in 5e, dragon's an natural spellcasters is a variant...

A dragon without spell casting is just a really big and powerful smart lizard, and not a dragon...

[Knaight]

A dragon without spell casting is just a really big and powerful smart lizard, and not a dragon...

If you look at the mythology the dragons are based on (generally European dragons from about CE 100-CE 1500, though stuff like the Zmey, Sarruk, etc. outside of this time period has similar traits), this is exactly what they were, at best. A lot of them weren't big and weren't smart, though they generally remained powerful. For instance, take these two classic images:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Saint_george_raphael.jpg
http://www.royalsocietyofstgeorge.com/st-george-dragon1.jpg

Both dragons are pretty small, and in the mythology in question they aren't bright at all. We aren't talking about something like the Chinese dragons here, which are extremely intelligent and massive godlike entities.

[mephnick]

See, dragons as natural spellcasters always seemed stupid to me. Smaug doesn't cast spells. Dragons in mythology and fairy tales don't cast spells. Why does everyone think dragons should cast spells? They're large beasts. Some are fairly smart depending on what sources you're taking them from. Some of them are like mindless destructive forces of nature. I can't think of any that actually cast spells.

[Chronos]

See, dragons as natural spellcasters always seemed stupid to me. Smaug doesn't cast spells.
Not that we see, but his ancestor Ancalagon the Black did. Or at least, he had some way of messing with enemies' minds (not just fear, but things like erasing all of someone's memories).

And even Smaug has capabilities that would be hard to replicate in D&D without spells. For instance, when even a single piece is taken from the edge of his huge treasure pile, he notices and awakens immediately. That's either some serious senses and pathological OCD, or an Alarm spell.

[Knaight]

Not that we see, but his ancestor Ancalagon the Black did. Or at least, he had some way of messing with enemies' minds (not just fear, but things like erasing all of someone's memories).

And even Smaug has capabilities that would be hard to replicate in D&D without spells. For instance, when even a single piece is taken from the edge of his huge treasure pile, he notices and awakens immediately. That's either some serious senses and pathological OCD, or an Alarm spell.

Sure, but LotR and the Silamarillion are hardly the definitive works on dragons. The dragons in those are Morgoth's greatest servants, and a lot of the way they are implemented there reflects that. The shocking intelligence, the magic, the awareness, so on and so forth are more from the great servants of Morgoth aspect than the dragon one. After all, Balrogs (another great servant) are similar in those regards.

Something like the story of the lindwyrm in the well, St. George, the dragon in Le Morte d'Arthur, or a whole bunch of other works maintains different aspects of the dragons, where they're a whole lot less impressive.

[Icewraith]

Well, good to know I messed up Portent, filing that away for future reference.

Regarding LOS, please remember that the wall of fire was cast BEFORE the wall of force, and that the PHB specifically states you don't need to maintain line of effect or range to concentrate on a spell once it has been cast.

This was a dragon encounter in HOTDQ, idk if it's THE dragon encounter since I have not read the module on purpose, but we had already cleared out the rest of the place, it was just the (green) dragon and a spellcaster buddy. Arcane Eye to scout the place out and then Greater Invisibility on the Rogue, we cleared cultists out first so we didn't need to worry about minions messing things up for us when it came time to fight the dragon. I could have Arcane Eyed the place earlier but it was behind a waterfall and I'm not sure if that would have worked.

So dex is a good save to target, there are spells to protect against frightful presence.

Note that the dragon was probably going to survive the wall of force+fire, but since he didn't have evasion he was still well below half by the time he broke out, and I didn't get a good idea of how close the dragon was to breaking out based on the DM's description until he had already done so and we got breathed on. This probably could only have worked once anyways, since now I imagine most big nasties of this sort are going to have some sort of emergency teleport, dispel, or even disintegrate in a couple levels.

Does a monk polymorphed into a giant ape still get all his class abilities and whatnot? I'm not solid on how polymorph actually works this edition. However, I am incredibly glad I took resilient:con instead of bumping my int to 20, there's no way I would have made a number of the concentration rolls I needed to.

[Myzz]

btw, can a Dragon have a Dragonborn NPC as a familiar?

I like the version of dragon's in D&D lore like Dragonlance... where dragons walk among us in disguise.

Enter my dragon's lair... see the dragon (who's a trusted polymorphed minion or familiar - hence the question above), while the dragon is an polymorphed enslaved captive pleading for help...

Fight the dragon who flees at half HP, rescue the damsel in distress, only to find out much later that its really the dragon... Heck the Dragon could be the throne sitting in the middle of the room... or the (whatever)... Or the Ancient Dragon polymorphed himself into an adult dragon... so wear down the HP of the adult dragon only to have an ancient dragon pop out with full HP...

[TheDeadlyShoe]

This was a dragon encounter in HOTDQ, idk if it's THE dragon encounter since I have not read the module on purpose, but we had already cleared out the rest of the place, it was just the (green) dragon and a spellcaster buddy. Arcane Eye to scout the place out and then Greater Invisibility on the Rogue, we cleared cultists out first so we didn't need to worry about minions messing things up for us when it came time to fight the dragon. I could have Arcane Eyed the place earlier but it was behind a waterfall and I'm not sure if that would have worked.
well, was the dragon not ready for you or something?

Also, note that lair actions occur on initiative count twenty, So technically the dragon would get one before the initiative counts you mentioned. It would also get an option to do a Wing Attack and then move half of its fly distance AFTER the wall of fire but BEFORE the wall of force. So technically the double wall thing should not have worked if the DM was playing optimally.

I guess a readied action is a way around that but as a DM I would rule that as rules ****ery and would allow the legendary action.


Does a monk polymorphed into a giant ape still get all his class abilities and whatnot? I'm not solid on how polymorph actually works this edition. However, I am incredibly glad I took resilient:con instead of bumping my int to 20, there's no way I would have made a number of the concentration rolls I needed to.

the polymorph monk 'is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of the new form', and 'it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech'.

it would be a stretch that monk unarmed doesn't require hands, but if the DM wants to rule-of-cool it...whatever.

[Icewraith]

well, was the dragon not ready for you or something?

Also, note that lair actions occur on initiative count twenty, So technically the dragon would get one before the initiative counts you mentioned. It would also get an option to do a Wing Attack and then move half of its fly distance AFTER the wall of fire but BEFORE the wall of force. So technically the double wall thing should not have worked if the DM was playing optimally.

I guess a readied action is a way around that but as a DM I would rule that as rules ****ery and would allow the legendary action.


the polymorph monk 'is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of the new form', and 'it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech'.

it would be a stretch that monk unarmed doesn't require hands, but if the DM wants to rule-of-cool it...whatever.

Not as ready as it could have been certainly. Also, we only manage to play sporadically, so I'm pretty sure this is the highest level we had played at so far, first time I've seen lair actions, maybe the second time the rest of the group has etc. I got the feeling that me running a wizard was a string of nasty surprises for the DM.

I'm pretty sure the DM would agree with me that a monk turned into a Giant Ape still can use his class abilities. If you really want to get down to it, even if the RAW starts talking about hands, the monk's class features involve attacking unARMed, so he could get by on even fewer body parts if he needed to.
Apologies for the pun.

Legendary action? Can the dragon just action point whenever, or is one of its options for the lair action to act normally? However it ended up working out, we ended up both going after the lair action but before the dragon IIRC. If it gets a free action point it can use whenever, then we would have needed to wait until he burned it to do the wall thing, yes.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Lair actions occur on initiative count 20, after anyone with 20 initiative has acted. So yeah, going after the lair action sounds correct.

Legendary actions occur at the end of any characters turn. They are specific to the creature. Legendary creatures typically get a maximum 3 legendary actions until it is their turn once more; using the wing flap/move action consumes two of them, assuming it has such an action.