reach, threatening, and attacks of opportunity

[bjoern]

I'm looking for some feedback from players and DMS who have actually used 10' or more reach in an encounter.

Is there a significant advantage to having reach beyond 10'?

If you're in the middle of 100 enemies and you have great cleave, yeah 20' reach is awesome. No doubt there.

What I'm more interested in is say 1 on 1 or at most 3 on 1. Is having that extra 10' of reach worth the Investment?

Since a single enemy only provokes from leaving a threatened square once per turn, they can prokove once and dance around all of that 20' reach with impunity.

Having 10' of reach will let you hit a charging attacker once.

Having 20" of reach will let you hit a charging attacker once.

The only time that the 20' would make a difference against a charger is if he has reach of some kind as well.

[sideswipe]

having a reach of 40 ft means that 99% of any enemy provokes an attack when they charge. when you have a reach of 10 ft a gigantic or larger creature will just stay 15+ feat away and smack your head. and then attack you when you have to charge them.

since most colossal creatures have reach 30ft, as long as you have more you are at an advantage.

[Vhaidara]

Reach is important when you have trip or Stand Still.

10ft reach, you hit the charger once, next turn you full attack him, and now he's too close to charge.

20ft reach, you hit the target at 20ft and stop him. Next round you full attack him, he charges again, you hit him and stop him 15t from you. Next round you full attack him, he charges, you stop him at 10ft. Next round, you full attack him, and now he's too close to charge.

If you have trips instead of stand still, modify the previous one to add an AoO each turn when he stands up.

[KillianHawkeye]

Reach is important when you have trip or Stand Still.

10ft reach, you hit the charger once, next turn you full attack him, and now he's too close to charge.

20ft reach, you hit the target at 20ft and stop him. Next round you full attack him, he charges again, you hit him and stop him 15t from you. Next round you full attack him, he charges, you stop him at 10ft. Next round, you full attack him, and now he's too close to charge.

If you have trips instead of stand still, modify the previous one to add an AoO each turn when he stands up.

Considering that Attacks of Opportunity technically occur before the target finishes the action that provokes one, I would think that abusing the Stand Still feat in this manner would prevent the enemy from ever reaching you. Wouldn't it?

[OldTrees1]

A mid level Fighter with a reach of 20ft or more acts like a continuous web/solid fog/other movement halting spell of choice that also deals damage/other effects. This is in addition to their actions on their turn.

Having only 10ft of reach lets you act like a perimeter wall or trap enemies but not both. 20ft lets you do both.

[Coidzor]

I'm looking for some feedback from players and DMS who have actually used 10' or more reach in an encounter.

Is there a significant advantage to having reach beyond 10'?

Yes, you can move to attack someone without them being able to negate your reach advantage with a 5' step on their next turn. You can deal with foes larger than Large on equal footing or less uneven footing or even come out ahead in terms of who has the reach advantage.


What I'm more interested in is say 1 on 1 or at most 3 on 1. Is having that extra 10' of reach worth the Investment?

If they can't tumble, then they either have to live with being unable to hit you with their melee attacks without charging, making them want to instead have tower-shield blockers while they pepper you with ranged attacks or decide to eat attacks of opportunity in trying to close with you. Which with something like Stands Still or Improved Trip means that, hey, they may end up unable to attack you and flat on their arse and ripe for some free -4 to hit sacrificed to Power Attack on your next turn.


Since a single enemy only provokes from leaving a threatened square once per turn, they can prokove once and dance around all of that 20' reach with impunity.

They still eat an extra attack leaving them at a disadvantageous ratio of attacks made by each combatant and can be tripped, knocked back(and tripped), or Stand Still'D to further bork up their ratio.


The only time that the 20' would make a difference against a charger is if he has reach of some kind as well.

Potentially. It depends on how much one has invested in other reach weapon fighting techniques and how resistant to them the charger is. If the character with reach can keep the charger away from them, then the reach character's allies can pepper the charger with ranged attacks without having to worry about soft cover, for instance.

Of course, if you charge them, you get that attack or set of attacks if you have pounce and then they get their attack or attacks if they have pounce or enough reach to full attack you within a 5' step. So in the best case scenario for them, you're up one attack. In the worst case scenario for them where they're still able to hit you, you're up one full attack on their single attack.

[bjoern]

Reach is important when you have trip or Stand Still.

10ft reach, you hit the charger once, next turn you full attack him, and now he's too close to charge.

20ft reach, you hit the target at 20ft and stop him. Next round you full attack him, he charges again, you hit him and stop him 15t from you. Next round you full attack him, he charges, you stop him at 10ft. Next round, you full attack him, and now he's too close to charge.

If you have trips instead of stand still, modify the previous one to add an AoO each turn when he stands up.

Stand still is very nice. I'm trying to decide what feat to cut from my build to add it.
I have hold the line now. With 5' reach, hold the line basically let's you AoO a guy that you otherwise wouldn't be able to. With over 5' reach, hold the line effectively gives you 5'more of reach but only on ddefense and only against chargers.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Don't forget you can ready an attack against anyone who charges you, as well.

If your weapon can be braced, all the better.

You wouldn't believe how many times I had to remind my players/party they could ready attacks.

[Coidzor]

Don't forget you can ready an attack against anyone who charges you, as well.

If your weapon can be braced, all the better.

You wouldn't believe how many times I had to remind my players/party they could ready attacks.

Indeed. Still, it's better to keep the pouncebarian from getting off a full attack than it is to deal one attack that does double damage to him in exchange for his full attack.

[bjoern]

My guy will have a 20' reach.

So far my melee feats are: power attack, hold the line, combat reflexes, and close quarters fighting.

I like stand still. I may drop close quarters fighting for stand still.

I also like spring attack, but the 2 feat tax is high.

I also like elusive target, but I feel that with my reach at 20' I won't even need to be provoking very much on my turn.

[Coidzor]

My guy will have a 20' reach.

So far my melee feats are: power attack, hold the line, combat reflexes, and close quarters fighting.

I like stand still. I may drop close quarters fighting for stand still.

I also like spring attack, but the 2 feat tax is high.

I also like elusive target, but I feel that with my reach at 20' I won't even need to be provoking very much on my turn.

Yeah, with 20 feet of reach, you should normally be the one provoked not the one provoking.

If you dump Hold the Line and Close Quarters Fighting you can get Improved Trip or Knockback as other ways of making sure charging foes can't necessarily connect. Of course, if you're using one or another as a prereq...

[bjoern]

Yeah, with 20 feet of reach, you should normally be the one provoked not the one provoking.

If you dump Hold the Line and Close Quarters Fighting you can get Improved Trip or Knockback as other ways of making sure charging foes can't necessarily connect. Of course, if you're using one or another as a prereq...

I don't have the prerequisites for those.

My guy is a human pal2/sorc4/spellsword1/abj.champ2. I was mainly wanting him to do something more interesting than whack stuff with a great sword (that seems to be what I always go with melees)
I've never used a polearm before so I thought this would be a good chance to.

I'm using a continuous item of enlarge person to get large size and 10' reach.
I'm not really going for an iron clad battlefield lockdown build like with a war blade or crusader. But I do have 4 feats to spend on the martial aspect of my build. I've spent 3 feats on my arcane side.

So with 4 feats I'm thinking stand still, power attack, combat reflexes, and one more. Shorten grip is handy, but its only useful if they get adjacent. And with stand still, hopefully that doesn't happen.

[Deophaun]

Don't forget you can ready an attack against anyone who charges you, as well.
But why would anyone in their right mind do that when steadfast boots are dirt cheap?

[Flickerdart]

Is there a significant advantage to having reach beyond 10'?
Step 1: Your PC brings an ubercharger to the table.
Step 2: Take a creature with 30ft reach and give it Knockback.
Step 3: When your ubercharger ubercharges, he trips an AoO and you push him down the stairs and into fire.

[ILM]

It's simply interdiction. It's easier to just go around a guy with 10-ft reach than a guy who threatens the entire battlefield.

[bjoern]

The more I think about it, Hold the Line and Stand Still don't really work well together.

If a guy charges me, he provokes as he tries to enter into my furthest space that I threaten. If I stand still him, it makes him stop and puts him back into the space that he left before the AoO. Which puts him outside my reach, which kind of defeats what stand still is all about.

[LoyalPaladin]

The more I think about it, Hold the Line and Stand Still don't really work well together.

If a guy charges me, he provokes as he tries to enter into my furthest space that I threaten. If I stand still him, it makes him stop and puts him back into the space that he left before the AoO. Which puts him outside my reach, which kind of defeats what stand still is all about.
Until he tries to move into your range again. In which case, rinse and repeat.

[bjoern]

Until he tries to move into your range again. In which case, rinse and repeat.

Except on my turn when I want to full attack him. I'll have to 5' step to bring him in range.

With stand still, the boon from hold the line isn't as significant as it is when you don't have stand still and reach.

With 5' reach, a guy who charges you will hit you.
With the hold the line feat, you'll at least get to hit him first.
With 20' reach and stand still he won't get to you.
With 20' reach, stand still, and hold the line he still won't get to you.

Diminishing returns kind of.

[Knaight]

On reach beyond 10 feet - 10 foot reach loses a lot of advantages against anything larger than large and most large creatures, they have the range to avoid AoOs. 20 foot reach? Less so, 40 foot reach? Extremely large weapon users with reach weapons don't need to worry about it, and that's about it. This is before getting into the amount of battlefield controlled, where every 5 foot increase is a ring of more squares than previous ones.

[LoyalPaladin]

Diminishing returns kind of.
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Hmmm... I'm not the best at reach fighting. But maybe someone else will be able to help you out. Are you playing a fighter or an initiator?

[bjoern]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Hmmm... I'm not the best at reach fighting. But maybe someone else will be able to help you out. Are you playing a fighter or an initiator?

Playing a Gish. Abj champion. With a focus on martial more so than arcane.

[Vhaidara]

Except on my turn when I want to full attack him. I'll have to 5' step to bring him in range.

You do, but the thing is, if you have 20ft reach, he still needs to provoke in order to reach you, but he is now in full attack range.

Enemy is 20ft from you (in your FA range). His options are:
Charge you. He provokes, you hit him, he doesn't move
Move forward normally. He provokes, you hit him, he doesn't move.
5ft step forward. No AoO, but now you 5ft step back and full attack him on your turn. He's no closer.
5ft step away. No AoO, but now you 5ft step forward and full attack him on your turn. He's no further away.
Withdraw. He runs away like a bitch. Only way he can move without getting smacked.

[Flickerdart]

Fun fact - enemies provoke every time they move out of a threatened square, and you are not forced to take any AoO. So if you're worried about catching enemies at the edge of your reach, you can always let them move a few 5ft squares closer before smacking them down. As long as your reach is sufficiently larger than theirs, you can make sure they're trapped without personally needing to move - even Withdraw only lets you avoid AoO for the square you're leaving, so if they're 10ft inside your reach, they're eating that AoO unless they tumble (which is what you got that Knight dip for).

[bjoern]

Fun fact - enemies provoke every time they move out of a threatened square, and you are not forced to take any AoO. So if you're worried about catching enemies at the edge of your reach, you can always let them move a few 5ft squares closer before smacking them down. As long as your reach is sufficiently larger than theirs, you can make sure they're trapped without personally needing to move.

Very true. Good call

[OldTrees1]

You do, but the thing is, if you have 20ft reach, he still needs to provoke in order to reach you, but he is now in full attack range.

Enemy is 20ft from you (in your FA range). His options are:
Charge you. He provokes, you hit him, he doesn't move
Move forward normally. He provokes, you hit him, he doesn't move.
5ft step forward. No AoO, but now you 5ft step back and full attack him on your turn. He's no closer.
5ft step away. No AoO, but now you 5ft step forward and full attack him on your turn. He's no further away.
Withdraw. He runs away like a bitch. Only way he can move without getting smacked.

Yes, that is how it works without Hold the Line. Hold the Line is only useful if they started 25ft (just outside of your FA range) since it triggers on entering a threatened square and you already get an AoO if they try to leave a threatened square.

All in all, Hold the Line is not worth taking.

[Vhaidara]

By the way, if you do use this build as Flicker suggested, I recommend saving this sound clip for use whenever an enemy tries to move.

Denied (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec9zw9ZKFKw)

[Flickerdart]

Man, this just makes me want to get back into DMing. Trolling PCs with trip/knockback-based controllers is wonderful. Who needs Black Tentacles when you have a huge guy with a poleaxe going "no, you stand here, and you stand over there, and you have a seat in this lava"? It's like a teacher assigning seats, except instead of getting to sit next to your friends, you die.

[Coidzor]

I don't have the prerequisites for those.

You don't have Int 13 for Combat Expertise to chain into Improved Trip?(since as a Sorcadin you don't have the levels to dip into Barbarian for Improved Trip and Pounce) You don't have Strength 13 and Large Size for Power Attack>Improved Bull Rush>Knockback?

Hm. That does make things trickier, then.


My guy is a human pal2/sorc4/spellsword1/abj.champ2. I was mainly wanting him to do something more interesting than whack stuff with a great sword (that seems to be what I always go with melees)
I've never used a polearm before so I thought this would be a good chance to.

Well, Wraithstrike is always fun. Most of your interesting options are going to come from your spells though. And you're one level away from 4th level spells which, IIRC, have most of the gems you'll want.


I'm using a continuous item of enlarge person to get large size and 10' reach.
I'm not really going for an iron clad battlefield lockdown build like with a war blade or crusader. But I do have 4 feats to spend on the martial aspect of my build. I've spent 3 feats on my arcane side.

Well, since you're a gish your BAB progression probably rules out Power Attack > Improved Bull Rush > Knock Back > Shock Trooper.

Although looking back on it, the ability to move opponents to the left and the right when bull rushing them is limited to when you charge them only anyway, making it less interesting for deterrence.

Although if you could hack it, it would make for a nice bit of bowling with your enemies when you do charge, since if they're near one another you can charge, hit one, get a free bull rush in, use that free bull rush to knock your opponent into another opponent, getting free trip attempts against each which they can't use to try to trip you back, and then if you have the right reach for it, they're still within your reach and both prone in the same square which, IIRC, gives them some penalties on top of being prone, making them even more vulnerable...


So with 4 feats I'm thinking stand still, power attack, combat reflexes, and one more. Shorten grip is handy, but its only useful if they get adjacent. And with stand still, hopefully that doesn't happen.

Plus, armor spikes. Honestly can't think of any single feat to combo that with. In a few levels tripping will be less useful against the monsters you face due to more flight and movement modes that prevent tripping, so stand still is probably a bit better going into the double digits, IIRC. If that weren't the case I'd say go through and get the improved trip line and then for your next feat grab Knock-down.

[bjoern]

You don't have Int 13 for Combat Expertise to chain into Improved Trip?(since as a Sorcadin you don't have the levels to dip into Barbarian for Improved Trip and Pounce) You don't have Strength 13 and Large Size for Power Attack>Improved Bull Rush>Knockback?

Hm. That does make things trickier, then.



Well, Wraithstrike is always fun. Most of your interesting options are going to come from your spells though. And you're one level away from 4th level spells which, IIRC, have most of the gems you'll want.



Well, since you're a gish your BAB progression probably rules out Power Attack > Improved Bull Rush > Knock Back > Shock Trooper.

Although looking back on it, the ability to move opponents to the left and the right when bull rushing them is limited to when you charge them only anyway, making it less interesting for deterrence.

Although if you could hack it, it would make for a nice bit of bowling with your enemies when you do charge, since if they're near one another you can charge, hit one, get a free bull rush in, use that free bull rush to knock your opponent into another opponent, getting free trip attempts against each which they can't use to try to trip you back, and then if you have the right reach for it, they're still within your reach and both prone in the same square which, IIRC, gives them some penalties on top of being prone, making them even more vulnerable...



Plus, armor spikes. Honestly can't think of any single feat to combo that with. In a few levels tripping will be less useful against the monsters you face due to more flight and movement modes that prevent tripping, so stand still is probably a bit better going into the double digits, IIRC. If that weren't the case I'd say go through and get the improved trip line and then for your next feat grab Knock-down.

Knockback would be nice. I would have to change my race though, to get large size. I don't think the continuous item of enlarge person would let me qualify for knock back.

What race or feat would be good to get large size?

I'd lose one feat from giving up human, so I'd have to wait a few more levels until I can get improved bull rush and knock back.

[Necroticplague]

What race or feat would be good to get large size?
.

Half-minotaur human. Failing that, half-goristro human (that actually bumps you up to Huge, buts its ECL is a bit higher).

[Vhaidara]

Knockback would be nice. I would have to change my race though, to get large size. I don't think the continuous item of enlarge person would let me qualify for knock back.

It actually does. However, if you ever lose the item, you lose access to the feat until you have the item back.

[bjoern]

It actually does. However, if you ever lose the item, you lose access to the feat until you have the item back.

That would be great! Can you give me a reference for that? As far as items letting you qualify.

[Vhaidara]

I don't actually know where it is, but the question is this: Do you meet the prerequisites for the feat when you level up? if you have the item, then you do. If you lose the item, you don't, so you lose the benefits of the feat. It's a common trick with the War Hulk PrC.

Failing that, Goliath or Half Giant are both decent options.

[NecessaryWeevil]

The conversation has moved on a bit from the original question, but I'll just point out that, with 20-foot reach and Combat Reflexes, you're not just defending yourself from charges. You're defending your ENTIRE PARTY from charges and, really, from being in melee at all unless they want to be.

[Khedrac]

Fun fact - enemies provoke every time they move out of a threatened square, and you are not forced to take any AoO. So if you're worried about catching enemies at the edge of your reach, you can always let them move a few 5ft squares closer before smacking them down. As long as your reach is sufficiently larger than theirs, you can make sure they're trapped without personally needing to move - even Withdraw only lets you avoid AoO for the square you're leaving, so if they're 10ft inside your reach, they're eating that AoO unless they tumble (which is what you got that Knight dip for).
Now, I agree with you in effect, but not cause, however it's worth noting that most of the RAW lawyers on this forum seem to disagree.
Their position is that because movement only provokes once per opponent regardless of the number of threatened squares left, you have to take the AoO on the first square left as that is the only one you get.

I reckon since the entire movement is the provoking action, one can take the AoO at any point in the movement where a threatened square is being left - i.e. that they are the same act of provocation. This means in practice that if you don't take the AoO immediately, the movement has to be made square by square until either you choose to take the AoO, or you discover you left it too late.

[Lerondiel]

My guy will have a 20' reach.

So far my melee feats are: power attack, hold the line, combat reflexes, and close quarters fighting.

I like stand still. I may drop close quarters fighting for stand still.

I also like spring attack, but the 2 feat tax is high.

I also like elusive target, but I feel that with my reach at 20' I won't even need to be provoking very much on my turn.

You wont have the BAB for Robilar's Gambit for a while but its a lot of fun.

[bjoern]

You wont have the BAB for Robilar's Gambit for a while but its a lot of fun.

Hmm. That is interesting. Not sure its a good fit for this build though. Since my goal is to keep them away from me.

Here a what I got for feats as of now.

Level 1
Inattentive, murkey eyed
Combat casting, combat reflexes
Power attack, stand still

Level3
Improved bull rush

Level 6
Arcane preparation

Level9
Knockback

[Coidzor]

You wont have the BAB for Robilar's Gambit for a while but its a lot of fun.

A bit anti-synergistic here, Robilar's Gambit. Now if it had a way to lure enemies in towards you passively so they don't just try to kite/ranged attack or require some poor action economy exchange like Goad(3.5) or Antagonize(PF), that'd be nice.