Arcane gish build advice

[Xathrax]

Greetings!

After some arguing with my GM he invalidated my build(partially related to the previous thread I made) so my next stop is an arcane gish. Most 3.5 sources are available with the exception of:

Unearthed Arcane
Tome of Battle
Dragon Magazines
Anything psionic
Anything evil
Tome of Magic
Magic of Incarnum

Also the race MUST be human and the first level MUST be a wizard. No partial BAB as well.

I would love to hear your thoughts on the following:

1. Gish prestige classes. Abjurant Champion seems like a no brainer and probably a single level Spellsword. I hear good things about the swiftblade, but I lose at least a caster level and it costs me 2 crap feats.

2. Good buffs to use. Greater Magic Weapon, Haste and Greater Mighty Wollop(with spiked chain) seems like a no brainer, but not sure about other stuff. All round,minute/level buffs seem too short so I'm sceptical about using them. Haste is an exception since it's really strong, buffs allies and if I take swiftblade I can use it as a swift action.

3. Good gish feats. I need to convince myself that a gish is somehow better than your usual leap attack/shock trooper fighter/barb. If I go Swiftblade/Abjurant champion I'm taking 3 craptastic feats.

4. Stat distribution. I rolled quite well with 17, 16, 15, 13, 12, 11.

As always - your input is greatly appreciated!

[Amphetryon]

1. Sacred Exorcist is often recommended for Gish builds as a way of getting access to DMM shenanigans without using any Divine caster levels.
2. (Mass) Snake's Swiftness is a handy Instant Attack spell for you and your party. Luminous Armor is a good defensive spell that's actually Abjuration, which Mage Armor is not, so it's useful to getting into Abjurant Champion.
3. See point #1 regarding Divine Metamagic.
4. I'd put the stats at STR 16 DEX 13 CON 15 INT 17 WIS 11 CHA 12, given your array; if you're planning on going the Finesse route with Spiked Chain, swap DEX and STR.

[Urpriest]

How are you planning to use Greater Mighty Wallop on a non-bludgeoning weapon?

Also, Divine Metamagic isn't an option for arcane casters without further trickery, since it explicitly works on divine spells only.

Anyway, there are basically two types of Gishes out there, the highly constrained kind that has access to a method for Persisting spells and the slightly less constrained one that doesn't. Which optimization level are you going for here?

[Rebel7284]

DIVINE Metamagic was errataed to explicitly only work with divine spells. Not very useful for an arcane gish. However, things like Animal Devotion, Travel Devotion, Law Devotion, etc. are very nice buffs to use turning attempts on.

Some builds
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +8/X 4

This is much better with Martial Wizard that trades scribe scroll and a feat at level 5 for fighter feats, but you mentioned that UA is banned, so eh? Very feat hungry, but Swiftblade is very nice. Comes with working persistomancy. =)


Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7

Duskblade or anything that gives weapon/armor proficiencies can replace the fighter level.
Eldritch Knight can be added instead of Sacred Exorcist, but loses MORE casting.

[sideswipe]

could try wizard into incantatrix with a splash of abjurant champion.

take the thing that gives domain spells to your class spell list and choose something like war domain, something that gives divine power.

persist divine power.

[Zaq]

What level are you starting at? Gishes don't really hit their stride until you get pretty deep into PrC territory, so if you're starting below level 8-10 or so, you're not going to look so hot. (The exception is the Duskblade, which works just fine starting at 3rd level, but they're a lot less powerful than a well-built Wizard-based gish in the long run.)

[Xathrax]

Thanks for the responses so far. Really great suggestions that I haven't thought of myself yet.

We started at level 1 which is sad for a gish, but not much I can do there.

The spelldancer seems like a great way to cheat in persistant and it shares a lot of prerequisites with swiftblade. Such a shame that I would need yet another craptastic feat, but I suppose the upside is worth it. I read somewhere that 3.0 sources not reprinted are still considered official. Is that true? If so any linkies?

Feeding Animal Devotion with turn undead from Sacred Exorcist is really cool. Sadly the part where I need to be good turns me off a bit. I just don't do good too well. But I'll see if I can work it in. Perhaps I could just dip a cleric level and get 2 domains on top of that? It might be worth the single lost caster level and BAB. Is there any god on Faerun that grants both animal and knowledge domains? Both devotions seem to be a good enough investment.

Finally on the optimization level - I'd prefer to optimize quite a bit, but if there is some cool concept involved I'm usually happy to be a bit weaker, but do cool stuff.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you're starting at level 1, the divine power wizard sideswipe mentioned is essentially a pure wizard who happens to prefer melee, so you can play it as a BFC wizard at low levels or something. Unless you're going to have trouble getting scrolls for new spells, wizard gishes can switch over just like that (you don't lose any caster levels going incantatrix and abjurant champion).

[Seerow]

Also if you don't mind heavily restricted spells known, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer isn't bad at low levels. Get 3/4 BAB and d8+2 hit die, a couple of proficiencies and casting in light armor (plus proficiency). I tend to prefer it over Duskblade (which is getting very limited spells known as well, from a much weaker list) for a gish in a can build, though a lot of people around here really dislike it due to its limitations (and more specifically how the limitations continue after you prestige out, while the benefits do not).

[Xathrax]

Also if you don't mind heavily restricted spells known, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer isn't bad at low levels. Get 3/4 BAB and d8+2 hit die, a couple of proficiencies and casting in light armor (plus proficiency). I tend to prefer it over Duskblade (which is getting very limited spells known as well, from a much weaker list) for a gish in a can build, though a lot of people around here really dislike it due to its limitations (and more specifically how the limitations continue after you prestige out, while the benefits do not).

Isn't the battle sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana? If so the book is not permitted.

[sideswipe]

from level 1 i suggest either just playing wizard and switching like my build and a couple others suggested, or just be a duskblade for gish in a can, comes online level 3 really and until then your a fighter with a few spells.

[Andreaz]

Unearthed Arcane
Tome of Battle
Dragon Magazines
Anything psionic
Anything evil
Tome of Magic
Magic of Incarnum
Before proceeding, I must ask: Does your GM know he banned most of the fun options, and left available most of the overpowered options?

[A_S]

Before proceeding, I must ask: Does your GM know he banned most of the fun options, and left available most of the overpowered options?
I mean, it looks like he just banned all the subsystems he didn't know very well. Which is kinda sad, cuz they're mostly better designed and balanced than spellcasting, but I can see not wanting to DM for parts of the system you aren't familiar with.

As for the OP: If you're starting at level 1 and you actually want to play a gish (as opposed to a character with the potential to become a gish at a later level you may never reach), I strongly. recommend using a character built around a Duskblade chassis. Otherwise you'll have to spend seven levels or so playing as a gimped wizard first.

Straight Duskblade falls off in power later in the game, but it's not too hard to build to avoid that; I can provide some more advice on that front when I'm not on my phone.

[Rebel7284]

Glad you like the Spelldancer build!

Here is what I would do with feats since I assume flaws from Unearthed Arcana are not allowed.

1. Combat Casting
H. Dodge (alternatively, expeditious dodge is better. However, if you will ever take elusive target, you need dodge)
3. Endurance
5. Trade metamagic feat for domain granted power of the War Domain for weapon proficiency AND weapon focus. Located in Complete Champion.
Buy Armor of Mobility. Magic Item Compendium, +1 equivalent so as low as 4150 gp.
6. Extend Spell
9. Persistent Spell
12. Free (Practiced Spellcaster/Elusive Target/Arcane Strike/Quicken Spell are just some of the options)
15. Free
18. Free

[Xathrax]

Before proceeding, I must ask: Does your GM know he banned most of the fun options, and left available most of the overpowered options?

As A_S pointed out he indeed banned stuff he is not familiar with and it's understandable. However while I'm not familiar with some of the books myself I know for sure that both Dragon Magazine and Unearthed Arcana have REALLY overpowered stuff in them.

[Troacctid]

Isn't the battle sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana? If so the book is not permitted.

Battle Sorcerer is from Unearthed Arcana, Stalwart Sorcerer is from Complete Mage. The two variants can be combined or taken separately. If you just used the Complete Mage version, you'd lose one spell known of your highest level, but you'd get +2 hit points per Sorcerer level, and proficiency and Weapon Focus with a martial weapon of your choice. It's not the worst deal in the world if you are starting at a low level.

Personally, though, I would go for a Duskblade. They come online a lot sooner than any of the other arcane gish builds, and having to wait a bunch of levels before your character can function the way you want it to is a sad, sad thing.


As A_S pointed out he indeed banned stuff he is not familiar with and it's understandable. However while I'm not familiar with some of the books myself I know for sure that both Dragon Magazine and Unearthed Arcana have REALLY overpowered stuff in them.

I dunno about Unearthed Arcana, most of the stuff there is pretty well-balanced. Okay, there's gestalt, but that's intentionally overpowered and not meant for normal games. And there's Tainted Sorcerer, but it's only for games that use taint, which most games don't. And there's the Generic Spellcaster, but that's a variant class system that's supposed to be mutually exclusive with normal classes. Really the only overpowered option that's meant for normal games is Cloistered Cleric, and maybe Domain Wizard (just because it's a completely free power upgrade). Most of the other variants are just fun options, like Wildshape Ranger or Raging Druid or Animal Companion Bard.

[A_S]

As A_S pointed out he indeed banned stuff he is not familiar with and it's understandable. However while I'm not familiar with some of the books myself I know for sure that both Dragon Magazine and Unearthed Arcana have REALLY overpowered stuff in them.
The broken stuff in Dragon Magazine and Unearthed Arcana is small potatoes compared to the broken stuff in core. Like, yes, Unseelie Fey is under-CR'ed, and yes, getting access to both arcane and divine spells off broad lists with Sha'ir is very strong, and yes, Domain Wizard is pretty much a strict upgrade over normal Wizard...

...but the power boost a character gets from choosing any of those options is nothing compared to the power boost they get from being able to cast, say, Shapechange.

-----

If you're interested in playing a Duskblade-based gish, I recommend building into Sublime Chord in the later levels.

One easy option is to go Bard 1/Duskblade 13/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5. That gets you all the good stuff out of Duskblade (up through full attack channeling), and then finishes off the build with 7th level spell access, which gets you some very good stuff to channel that you'd otherwise be missing out on. You'll feel effective and gish-y throughout your career, and you won't fall off as hard at the late levels as a straight Duskblade will (though if your party members are tier 1-2 casters, lagging behind on spell levels will hurt).

If you want something higher-powered than that (basically, if your party is full of high tier casters and you need to keep up), you can move into Sublime Chord earlier and get your hands on 9th level spells. Doing this will miss out on full-attack channeling, but it does open up the option to squeeze other class features in. Here's a Duskblade-based gish that gets 9th level spells and full Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil class features, for instance:
Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Abjurant Champion 2
8 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Cha 16
9 - Warrior Skald 1 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Legacy Champion 1 - Arcane Strike
16 - Legacy Champion 2 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 3
18 - Legacy Champion 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord), Channel Legacy (b)
19 - Legacy Champion 5
20 - Legacy Champion 6 - Cha 19
You can get creative about what exactly you squeeze in there. The big advantage of builds like this, as I mentioned above, is that they start to play like an actual gish as early as level 1, and certainly by level 3, as opposed to having to wait until level 8 or so before your character concept really comes online.

[Lerondiel]

Greetings!

Also the race MUST be human and the first level MUST be a wizard. No partial BAB as well.

1. Gish prestige classes... Abjurant Champion seems like a no brainer and probably a single level Spellsword. I hear good things about the swiftblade, but I lose at least a caster level and it costs me 2 crap feats.

2. Good buffs to use. Greater Magic Weapon, Haste and Greater Mighty Wollop(with spiked chain) seems like a no brainer, but not sure about other stuff. All round,minute/level buffs seem too short so I'm sceptical about using them. Haste is an exception since it's really strong, buffs allies and if I take swiftblade I can use it as a swift action.

3. Good gish feats. I need to convince myself that a gish is somehow better than your usual leap attack/shock trooper fighter/barb. If I go Swiftblade/Abjurant champion I'm taking 3 craptastic feats.

4..

What style are you looking for? An effective weapon wielder with arcane pizzazz or a character that simply says "wizards are better at everything"?

If you want to look like you belong on the front line the typical gish builds do it well but, no, buffs like you mentioned won't have you charging with that spiked chain better than a frenzied berserker.

1&3) If you want to just dominate it's like others have said, dont drop caster levels and take metamagic PrC/feats for reduced extend/quicken/persistents.

2) By 7th level you'll forget about weapons and BAB:
Heroics (Combat Reflexes) + Flame Whips to match the battlefield control of any fighter of equivalent level - with 6d6 touch attacks you'll even annoy a warlock ally.
By 9th, polymorph into a Cave Troll and pounce with Str29+ claw/claw/bite/rake/rake/rend/daze/grapple/etc
Girallon's Blessing etc can add to both of those.

But of course full caster leaves you squishy until you get 4th level spells like Grt Invisibility, so make him a conjuror and trade the familiar for Abrupt Jaunt to immediately teleport away from attacks. Mirror Image is a must.