Rogue + Fighter + Sneak Attack?

[Sorris]

Seems like it would be really worth it for any fighter to put at least 1 level into rogue for the sneak attack ability. Or it would seem so since it would be a free +1d6 extra damage any time someone else was within 5' of their target? Does sneak attack also scale with fighter level like spell casting levels sorta do?

[pwykersotz]

No, Sneak Attack is explicitly awarded at certain Rogue levels, it does not scale.

Dipping delays the acquisition of extra attack, so while it can be very nice, it's definitely a tradeoff. I like 2 levels of Rogue myself, cunning action is wonderful.

[EvanescentHero]

And if you dip to level three you get an archetype bonus, plus sneak attack increases to +2d6.

[xyianth]

Don't forget that sneak attack is limited to 1/turn, it won't apply to all your extra attacks as a fighter. It can still be a good dip, just something to keep in mind.

[EvanescentHero]

Don't forget that sneak attack is limited to 1/turn, it won't apply to all your extra attacks as a fighter. It can still be a good dip, just something to keep in mind.

But the extra attacks will also make it likelier that you'll land a sneak attack, for what that's worth!

[LucianoAr]

im currently playing an assassin fighter, and those 3 levels in rogue make ALL the difference. you get skills, expertise, CUNNING ACTION (this alone is invaluable) 2d6 sneak attack... and if you WIN initiative or you stealth your enemies you deal DOUBLE DAMAGE on the first round. combine with finesse weapon + two weapon fighting + improved initiative (optional) and youre dealing MASSIVE amounts of damage on the first round, and very very decent from then on. (i suggest battlemaster for the extra d8 that is also multiplied)

we have a ranger on the table of the same level and his damage compared to mine is a joke... and i also outclass him across all skills and mobility.

[hymer]

Seems like it would be really worth it for any fighter to put at least 1 level into rogue for the sneak attack ability.

Also, mustn't forget that sneak attacks must be dealt with ranged or finesse weapons.

[Chronos]

Eh, if you're even considering it, you're probably going Dex anyway. So far as I can tell, the only advantage to building a fighter for strength is that it lets you use Polearm Master.

[hymer]

Eh, if you're even considering it, you're probably going Dex anyway. So far as I can tell, the only advantage to building a fighter for strength is that it lets you use Polearm Master.

Are you saying I shouldn't have mentioned it?

[Person_Man]

Eh, if you're even considering it, you're probably going Dex anyway. So far as I can tell, the only advantage to building a fighter for strength is that it lets you use Polearm Master.

Polearm Master, Heavy Weapon Master, better damage at high levels with heavy weapons when you get your third attack, and superior Grapple/Shove checks.

[CrusaderJoe]

Sneak Attack is the worst ability you get for dipping Rogue. I'm not saying sneak attack itself is bad but you get such fantastic things from Rogue 1-3 that sneak attack is an after thought.

If you want to use the sneak attack you have to build a niche fighter, and so many people love the great sword fighter...

+1d6/2d6 damage is nice but if I wanted to add a bit of damage for dipping I think Monk would be the better way to go (martial arts: BA attack + Mod is .more workable I think).

[Myzz]

Eh, if you're even considering it, you're probably going Dex anyway. So far as I can tell, the only advantage to building a fighter for strength is that it lets you use Polearm Master.

or heavy armor which requires at least some investment in str. BUT the AC trade off between Heavy + Shield is negligible if your maxxing dex out in Studded Leather...

If you dip 1 level in rogue you might as well dip 2, for cunning action (its worth it). IF you dip 2 levels you might as well dip 3... get one of:
A. Fast Hands and Second story work... Use object on your bonus action anyone???
B. Assassinate... perhaps the favorite, auto crits during surprise round plz... and poison prof.
C. Spells: 3 cantrips, 3 level 1 spells known, and 2 level 1 slots. AND Mage Hand Legerdemain (utilize the mage hand on your bonus action)

As a fighter the ASI at rogue 4, might not be that huge but your 1 level away from that... AND IF you dip to Rogue 4, might as well get Rogue 5 for Uncanny Dodge: Use Reaction to halve an attack's damage against you! Also as a side note L5 Rogue gets you to 3d6 sneak attack...

The point is that dipping rogue can NET you tons of useful stuff... but be careful and have a goal in mind on the dip. There could be an avalanche of rogue levels... even rogue 6 is not useless, get another 2 expertise skills... Rogue 7 is evasion AND 4d6 sneak attack... Rogue 8 for next ASI...

so much good stuff there... and so few levels to cram them into! =(

[CrusaderJoe]

or heavy armor which requires at least some investment in str. BUT the AC trade off between Heavy + Shield is negligible if your maxxing dex out in Studded Leather...


Hill Dwarf fighter with 10 strength laughs at others with this problem.

Yes you can make a good Dex based hill dwarf fighter/rogue. That +2 to attacks with archery really makes up for starting with a 14 or 15 Dex.

Edit: The build ends with 16 Dex (archery makes this equal to a 20 for attacks) and focuses on feats and such while you walk around in heavy armor (heavy armor mastery is nice) and a bow/crossbow depending in your other feats.

[Xetheral]

While sneak attack requires finesse weapons for melee, you can still use strength.

This thread is making me think that a strength-based Battlemaster 5/Assassin 3/Barbarian 2 would very much fit the classical "Streetfighter" or "Enforcer" archetypes... big and strong and hard to put down, but still uses light, concealable weapons and vicious tactics.

[Kane0]

Rogue 9 Fighter 11? Or would that 9th rogue level be better used elsewhere?

[Balor777]

we have a ranger on the table of the same level and his damage compared to mine is a joke...
Whos giving you the advantage to use sneak?Rogue was designed to deal very nice damag if you have another guy attacking the same target.
Unless your DM allows you to hide and attack with advantage everysingle round for some strange reason.
Rogue is never about damage.Its about utility.And its a nice class but i dont want you to mislead people into believing rogue
can be the main damage dealer/frontman of the party.You need another melee guy AND the same attack target.Once crowded or the onther melee guy is down
rogue effectiveness vanish.

[CrusaderJoe]

Whos giving you the advantage to use sneak?Rogue was designed to deal very nice damag if you have another guy attacking the same target.
Unless your DM allows you to hide and attack with advantage everysingle round for some strange reason.
Rogue is never about damage.Its about utility.And its a nice class but i dont want you to mislead people into believing rogue
can be the main damage dealer/frontman of the party.You need another melee guy AND the same attack target.Once crowded or the onther melee guy is down
rogue effectiveness vanish.

It is so easy to get advantage as a Rogue it isn't funny. Unless your DM only runs featureless rooms and open meadows (which is a sign of a bad DM if that is 90% of their areas) then the rogue should be able to hide almost every turn, and that is how they are designed when Cunning Action comes online.

Not saying a DM has to cater to the rogue, but the game is made to cater to the rogue. The rogue is a pretty efficient damage dealer in 5e, even without the help of their allies. Unless you think featureless perfectly lit rooms are a norm?

[mephnick]

Do you just use ranged attacks? Hiding every round doesn't grant you sneak attack, you'd still have to make it to the enemy without being seen. As soon as you step into the open you're seen, unless you're using facing rules homebrew.

[RedMage125]

Do you just use ranged attacks? Hiding every round doesn't grant you sneak attack, you'd still have to make it to the enemy without being seen. As soon as you step into the open you're seen, unless you're using facing rules homebrew.

In the game I play, the Rogue frequently gets ranged SA because he attacks, moves (making sure he has cover the whole length of movement), and uses Cunning Action to Hide. The DM rules that since the enemies don't know where he is that he can use Hide in combat.

When I DM I'm a little less lenient. Unless you can COMPLETLEY disappear, Hiding in combat isn't going to work. An enemy sees you duck behind cover, he may not be able to TARGET you, but he knows you're there, and Hiding will not work. The Rogue in the party I DM for usually waits until the melee hitters get in, and uses ranged attacks to get his SA.

[LucianoAr]

Whos giving you the advantage to use sneak?Rogue was designed to deal very nice damag if you have another guy attacking the same target.
Unless your DM allows you to hide and attack with advantage everysingle round for some strange reason.
Rogue is never about damage.Its about utility.And its a nice class but i dont want you to mislead people into believing rogue
can be the main damage dealer/frontman of the party.You need another melee guy AND the same attack target.Once crowded or the onther melee guy is down
rogue effectiveness vanish.

well ima fighter battlemaster, and in case i cant hide, or have anyone close, i can also use a feint with the superiority dice to get advantage.

[Balor777]

It is so easy to get advantage as a Rogue it isn't funny. Unless your DM only runs featureless rooms and open meadows (which is a sign of a bad DM if that is 90% of their areas) then the rogue should be able to hide almost every turn, and that is how they are designed when Cunning Action comes online. No

Not saying a DM has to cater to the rogue, but the game is made to cater to the rogue. The rogue is a pretty efficient damage dealer in 5e, even without the help of their allies. Unless you think featureless perfectly lit rooms are a norm?
Read this pls. https://olddungeonmaster.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/dd-5e-stealth-and-hiding/



When I DM I'm a little less lenient. Unless you can COMPLETLEY disappear, Hiding in combat isn't going to work. An enemy sees you duck behind cover, he may not be able to TARGET you, but he knows you're there, and Hiding will not work. The Rogue in the party I DM for usually waits until the melee hitters get in, and uses ranged attacks to get his SA.

Yes.Thats it.Hidden is different from invisible. Again, taken from this guy: https://olddungeonmaster.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/dd-5e-stealth-and-hiding/ :

"If I am hiding behind a tree, can I stand out and attack with my ranged weapon with advantage and then return to hiding on my round of combat?

It depends. If you are doing this during a fight, it is assumed that all the creatures in the fight are alert and aware their surroundings, so they will spot you when you move to where you can be seen, you are no longer hiding so you don’t get advantage to the attack. However, if the fight hasn’t started yet, you have a chance to surprise them as long as they aren’t looking in your direction. In that case you an attack with advantage, but you will no longer be hidden as soon as you attack. If you are a 2nd level or higher rogue you can use a bonus action to attempt to hide again. But remember, if they see you duck behind a tree, they have a good guess at where you are hiding unless they are very very stupid.

Be a good DM and have the players describe what their characters are doing. If it makes logical sense, go for it. Don’t let the players use the rules to turn “hide” into a magical condition."


I rule that unless you are hiding and shooting your bolts/arrows from a hole in the wall the hide/sneak smal every round wont work.

[RedMage125]

Yes, Balor777, that's about how I see it.

However, if a Rogue legitimately started his turn hidden and wished (for some reason) to rush into melee to deliver his attack, I usually allow him to still get advantage because he was hidden at the start of his turn, even though a strict reading of RAW means that as soon as he steps out he is no longer hidden. In that respect I am a bit more lenient.

I do, however, have an issue with the way mine and this guy's ruling interacts with Lightfoot Halflings. Thankfully I'm not DMing for any right now, but I'm not sure how I'd handle it. Given that Hiding in combat is next to impossible (although if a DM is using optional facing rules I think it should be more permissible), I think it's difficult to get any use out of the Halfling's ability to successfully Hide behind a larger creature, such as a party member. I am having trouble balancing my desire for game balance and to run the game Rules As Written with my desire for Rules As Fun, since I don't like the idea of making a player's most unique ability from their racial choice not able to be used.

I struggle with how I should rule such a thing if I do ever have a player who wants to play a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue. The Rules As Intended clearly show that Rogues are good at Hiding quickly (Cunning Action), and that Lightfoots are uniquely able to disappear behind other creatures (Naturally Stealthy). If you have a character who is trained in Stealth and has Expertise in it, is that character not someone who has clearly invested a lot into their ability to be hidden? Perhaps allowing the check with disadvantage? Obviously any enemy who is not directly engaged in melee or otherwise focused on something else will automatically see the Rogue. But he or she might be able to Hide from an otherwise distracted enemy.

That's just a conjecture on what I MIGHT decide to do, and really that's a corner case applying to a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue. I don't want to completely say no, especially when the rules so clearly imply that such a character is exceptionally good at Hiding and can do so (and do it well) by simply disappearing behind another person. Still working on that, though (allowing a Hide check in combat with Disadvantage), because like I said, no Halflings in the group I currently DM.

[grub]

I've used my Rogue's hide a few times in one encounter. But I had heavy cover around a clearing and stealthed 30' to another hiding spot. Special case I know but it can be done. Mostly I find I get the extra dice from "flanking" (i.e. multiple people around single enemy).

[Laurefindel]

well ima fighter battlemaster, and in case i cant hide, or have anyone close, i can also use a feint with the superiority dice to get advantage.

We have a fighter/rogue in our group who is making good use of feint + sneak. Sneak gives you extra damage, as does the superiority die and Advantage means you have good chances to land a hit. Second attack is less impressive though...