[pathfinder] Shield/spear/path of war questions

[Swaoeaeieu]

Hello playground!

A few months ago i read and inmediatly fell in love with tome of battle, now a few days ago i saw the path of war thread, read de SRD of it, got the pdf. And now considder switching to pathfinder altogether. But that's not my point.

I had an idea for a character: Warlord wielding a shield and a spear. Focus on iron tortoise and scarlet throne. Beating folks up with a shield and a spear (like in 300. or achilles in that movie with brad pitt)
i love the warlords recovery mecanic. Think those two disciplines are cool and wanted to make a protecter of some sort. I know the warder has a lot of cool 'tanky' mechanics, but the protector part of the character is more roleplay.
So here are my questions:

1. is the vanguard commander archetype worth it for the acces to iron tortoise?
2. SRD states scarlet throne can't be used if you have a shield, pdf says no such thing, wich one is right?
3. Is there a way to wield a spear with reach one handed so i have my shield for 5 ft range, spear for 10. and can use shield throwing manouvers for ranged attacks? I read about the phalanx fighter archetype, but don't want to take 3 level dip for it.

4. this is more of a twf question: i have a shield and a spear. If i only attack with the shield in a round, is it still considderd off handed?

5. Any advice on this concept in general? it is not for an upcoming game, just me checking if a concept is possible.

Thanks in advance!

[edit] i swithed up shield and spear. of course scarlet can use a spear. doh
Also thf and twf. different things, but not to my sleep deprived brain :P

[Vhaidara]

1. Depends on you level. At low levels, no, because the main stance you'll want to use is Snapping Turtle, which overlaps with Improved Shield Bash. Once you get 3rd level stances, it becomes more efficient.

2. Spears are discipline weapons for Scarlet Throne, so of course you can use them. However, you cannot use shields with ST. PDF page 82.

3. Refluff the kusari-gama? It's basically a light version of the spiked chain. Only way to get reach on a one handed weapon that I know of.

4. That is a TWF question, not THF. And no, you only have an offhand weapon if you employ Two Weapon Fighting

5. You would need to find a GM who is willing to run with Rule of Cool to get your spear to be anything other than a shortspear

[Elricaltovilla]

Hi, welcome to the Pathfinder Side! We have cookies.

I'm glad to see PoW managed to interest you, we're always glad to bring more people into the mix. Have you seen the playtest materials that are available? Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399647-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Path-of-War-Expanded-%28new-thread%29).

Now to answer your questions:

1. The vanguard commander is a pretty good archetype. You won't be quite the tank a Warder is, but you have access to a lot of similar features. Some particularly nice additions are a second charge based gambit, and defensive prowess, which can shoot your reflex saves and AC through the roof.
2. You can use a spear with Scarlet Throne maneuvers, they're even discipline weapons. I think you meant shield, and in that case, you are correct. You can still use a shield while using most scarlet throne maneuvers, but some may have restrictions. I'd refer to the specific maneuvers to check.
3. For this, there isn't much option unfortunately. You might want to refer to the playtest documents, or pick up the Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final) feat to simulate the ability.

4. THF is usually an abbreviation for "two handed fighting" which refers to wielding a weapon in two hands (like a greatsword). To answer your question, by RAW a shield bash is always an off-hand attack, and thus only adds 1/2 your STR modifier to damage.

5. Look up the Piercing Thunder discipline in the playtest, as well as the associated style feats. Those will go a long way to helping your concept as there is a phalanx stance, and Piercing Thunder is centered around spears and polearms (and mounted combat). Martial Charge will be very useful for you, and you might want to go a DEX focused route if you can spare the feats, since Piercing Thunder Style lets you finesse lances and light shields are finesseable by RAW.

[Swaoeaeieu]

1. Depends on you level. At low levels, no, because the main stance you'll want to use is Snapping Turtle, which overlaps with Improved Shield Bash. Once you get 3rd level stances, it becomes more efficient.

2. Spears are discipline weapons for Scarlet Throne, so of course you can use them. However, you cannot use shields with ST. PDF page 82.

3. Refluff the kusari-gama? It's basically a light version of the spiked chain. Only way to get reach on a one handed weapon that I know of.

4. That is a TWF question, not THF. And no, you only have an offhand weapon if you employ Two Weapon Fighting

5. You would need to find a GM who is willing to run with Rule of Cool to get your spear to be anything other than a shortspear

sorry, made some typo's, fixed them in OP now.
I meant not using shields with ST. i didnt see the restriction on p82, i thought it wasn't in because p29 didnt mention it.
So that makes it a big no on combining ST and IT then. bummer.


Hi, welcome to the Pathfinder Side! We have cookies.

I'm glad to see PoW managed to interest you, we're always glad to bring more people into the mix. Have you seen the playtest materials that are available? Here's a link.

Now to answer your questions:

1. The vanguard commander is a pretty good archetype. You won't be quite the tank a Warder is, but you have access to a lot of similar features. Some particularly nice additions are a second charge based gambit, and defensive prowess, which can shoot your reflex saves and AC through the roof.
2. You can use a spear with Scarlet Throne maneuvers, they're even discipline weapons. I think you meant shield, and in that case, you are correct. You can still use a shield while using most scarlet throne maneuvers, but some may have restrictions. I'd refer to the specific maneuvers to check.
3. For this, there isn't much option unfortunately. You might want to refer to the playtest documents, or pick up the Lunge feat to simulate the ability.

4. THF is usually an abbreviation for "two handed fighting" which refers to wielding a weapon in two hands (like a greatsword). To answer your question, by RAW a shield bash is always an off-hand attack, and thus only adds 1/2 your STR modifier to damage.

5. Look up the Piercing Thunder discipline in the playtest, as well as the associated style feats. Those will go a long way to helping your concept as there is a phalanx stance, and Piercing Thunder is centered around spears and polearms (and mounted combat). Martial Charge will be very useful for you, and you might want to go a DEX focused route if you can spare the feats, since Piercing Thunder Style lets you finesse lances and light shields are finesseable by RAW.

Yay! cookies. now i have delicious martial murder AND a snack!
And more path of war! i like it. will start reading it asap. A whole discipline for polearms? Dreamscarredpress is just too nice to the poor non-casters. I love it!

Thanks for the quick responses, back to the drawing board for me.

[stack]

My biggest beef with vanguard commander is that it gives CHA to reflex saves instead of will. Your will saves are bad and you don't want bad will saves. Just something to be aware of when allocating resources, may need to shore that save up a bit more.

[Turion]

All Scarlet Throne maneuvers and stances require that the initiator not be using any kind of shield in their off-hand (including animated shields) while initiating a maneuver or while using a martial stance of this discipline. The initiator may use bucklers or rings of force shield or an effect that grants a shield bonus to his AC, just not a physical shield larger than a buckler. He must either have his off-hand empty, or be wielding a weapon two-handed to use this discipline.

So yeah, Scarlet Throne doesn't quite work for this, I'm afraid :smallfrown:

Take a look at the Piercing Thunder discipline that's in playtesting (there should be a link in the main thread). It's basically made for exactly this sort of character. You can pick it up through a martial tradition or the Hussar class template (which also gives you a horse animal companion).



5. You would need to find a GM who is willing to run with Rule of Cool to get your spear to be anything other than a shortspear

...ooor one who allows playtest material. Piercing Thunder Style feat allows you to wield a polearm as a light weapon, and the third-level stance (Phalanx Lancer) specifically allows you to wield any polearm one-handed with a shield.

[Swaoeaeieu]

So yeah, Scarlet Throne doesn't quite work for this, I'm afraid :smallfrown:

Take a look at the Piercing Thunder discipline that's in playtesting (there should be a link in the main thread). It's basically made for exactly this sort of character. You can pick it up through a martial tradition or the Hussar class template (which also gives you a horse animal companion).

...ooor one who allows playtest material. Piercing Thunder Style feat allows you to wield a polearm as a light weapon, and the third-level stance (Phalanx Lancer) specifically allows you to wield any polearm one-handed with a shield.

I will take a look, thanks.
And i will have to find a cool dm at some point. But for now this is just me looking into how cool i can make a character with the path of war material. So no DM opinion, just rules as they are written.

[Swaoeaeieu]

the piercing lance discipline looks pretty cool. I first thought it was a purely mounted focussed school. But most manouvers don't really require a mount.

But how does a warlord gain acces to the Piercing lance manouvers? or is the list of available schools for a warlord updated to include the new ones?

[Vhaidara]

There is going to be a trait to swap disciplines, or you can take the Hussar Class Template and apply it to Warlord (same document as Piercing Thunder

[stack]

Also a martial tradition!

[Elricaltovilla]

There is going to be a trait to swap disciplines, or you can take the Hussar Class Template and apply it to Warlord (same document as Piercing Thunder

There is also the Reverents of the Lance (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vX5QKzsOgPVoXqSuKdu_INbPz5x7OAL_qbH2aia14xk/edit?pli=1), which is a martial tradition that allows you to trade a discipline for Piercing Thunder, and lets you hit adjacent enemies with your reach weapon.

[Swaoeaeieu]

My original questions have been handled now. But since i have the attention of some path of war savvy giant's i think i will post my latest question here too:

How do style feats work? You need a swift action to activate them (if i read that correct), and the fuse styles feat allows you to enter a style and a stance at the same time. So does that mean you normally can't be in a stance when using a style feat?

[Turion]

My original questions have been handled now. But since i have the attention of some path of war savvy giant's i think i will post my latest question here too:

How do style feats work? You need a swift action to activate them (if i read that correct), and the fuse styles feat allows you to enter a style and a stance at the same time. So does that mean you normally can't be in a stance when using a style feat?

Nope, you can be in both at once, but it's a swift action to activate a style, and another to switch stances. Fuse Styles lets you do both with the same swift. It's pretty much just action economy.

[Elricaltovilla]

Turion is correct, you can have both a style and a stance active at the same time, they just each cost a swift action unless you have the feat. Another minor, but important distinction is that styles only last while you're in combat, while you can be in a stance indefinitely.

[Swaoeaeieu]

oh ok. thanks. The wording of fuse style confused me a bit.

[grarrrg]

3. Refluff the kusari-gama? It's basically a light version of the spiked chain. Only way to get reach on a one handed weapon that I know of.

Kusarigame is listed as Two-Handed weapon.

A Whip is the only 1-handed reach weapon that I know of...and you probably don't want to use a whip.
Or a Net can be a 1-handed reach weapon if you take a feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/net-adept-combat).

Lunge feat is good, but takes until level 6+ and only works on Offense.
Polearm Fighter is decent, but 'eh'.